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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We're going to end today's show with a Pride Month celebration of the restaurants that serve as safe havens for the people in the LGBTQ community. Usually, when we think about gay third spaces, bars are the first places that come to mind. Where do you grab that deliciously greasy meal after a night of drinks and dancing? Where is it safe to hold your date's hand above the table over a romantic dinner? Where has it been historically? Where could you go for a Sunday brunch with mimosas and entertainment from your neighborhood drag queens?

While restaurants haven't gotten the recognition that gay bars have received, they've also served as essential hubs for people in the LGBTQ community throughout many decades and maybe even longer than that. Joining me now with some of this history is Erik Piepenburg, journalist and contributor to the New York Times. He's got a new book out called "Dining Out: First Dates, Defiant Nights, and Last Call Disco Fries at America's Gay Restaurants." Hi, Erik. Thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Erik Piepenburg: Hi, Brian. Thank you so much.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take some phone calls on your favorite gay restaurants, if you want to call them that, or more broadly, the restaurants you have seen over time as sanctuaries for the community in New York City or anywhere, and today or anytime in the past. 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692. Your calls and your texts. Erik, why does history favor memories of gay bars as opposed to restaurants? What does a restaurant provide that a bar cannot?

Erik Piepenburg: Yes, that's one of the central questions that I sought to answer in my book. Gay restaurants can do things that you can't or probably shouldn't do at a gay bar. I think one of the things that really struck me was the way in which gay restaurants, especially during the AIDS crisis, became places where you could cry, and in some cases, became makeshift chapels for people who were mourning people who died. You could do that at gay bars, I suppose. What I love about gay restaurants is that you can actually have conversations there.

You can be 13 or 14 and be in your high school's Gay Straight Alliance, and you can get into a gay restaurant, but you can't get into a gay bar. Or on the flip side, you can be a gay elder and you don't want to hear the loud music and the drinks are too expensive, and you just want to go somewhere with your friends and enjoy a nice meal or just be by yourself and read a book, as I used to do, away from all the drunk people and the dancing. A gay restaurant can provide a different environment that really is about connection in a way that gay bars just really can't offer.

Brian Lehrer: Of course, if you were going by yourself just to sit somewhere and read a book, theoretically, it could be any restaurant. What constitutes a gay restaurant? Is it the food, the location, something else that maybe borders on the metaphysical? How would you describe it? Define it?

Erik Piepenburg: Yes, I define a gay restaurant as a restaurant where there are mostly gay people eating. The reason I say that is because you do have restaurants that are decked out in pride flags, and they have drag brunch. The minute you walk in, you realize, "Oh, this is a gay restaurant." Sometimes gay restaurants are gay restaurants. At certain times of the day, I think of diners, which I have an entire chapter devoted to my favorite gay diners. If you were to go there at, say, 9:00 AM, it might be straight moms or people coming off of the overnight shift, but then you return at 2:00 AM after the bars get out, and the entire dining room can be gay.

I think that's a defining characteristic of the gay restaurant that sets it apart from gay bars, because it's expected that when you open the doors to a gay bar, this is a gay space for gay people. That hasn't always been the case for restaurants that sometimes are gay and sometimes aren't. I think that's what makes the gay restaurant space as a place for gay people. It makes it really special and sets it apart.

Brian Lehrer: You want to mention some of those diners?

Erik Piepenburg: Yes. My favorite was the Melrose Diner in Chicago, which closed. I would sit there at 2:00 AM, like I said, and read a book over cherry pie. Those are just some of my favorite memories of just being there with other gay men and a fully gay dining room. We're talking the mid-'90s here. I would also mention diners like Chelsea Cottage and the Washington Square Diner here in New York City that have been around for a very long time. What I would call legacy gay restaurants that have been serving the gay community for a very, very long time.

Again, they are places where all kinds of LGBTQ people can meet and gather and sit and take your time and enjoy each other's company. Diners are a very, very special place for me, growing up in Cleveland, where we have some great diners. I remember being in high school, looking around my friend's diner in Cleveland and just being deeply closeted and scared of coming out, but also realizing that what me and other gay-to-be people were doing was queering this space, as we would call it today. We didn't have those words back in the late '80s, but just by being there and being there together and having an understanding that there's something different about me and about the other people in this room. It was a way of saying, this space is ours, at least for right now.

Brian Lehrer: Looks like somebody's texting from Bloodroot. It says, "Bloodroot Restaurant specializes in ethnic, vegan, and vegetarian cooking to appropriately make use of local ingredients. Our menu changes regularly, et cetera." Bloodroot is mentioned in the book, right?

Erik Piepenburg: It is. There's a whole chapter on Bloodroot, which is a legacy gay restaurant opened in the '70s as a feminist restaurant. Very, very welcoming since day one of lesbians in particular, but also just anyone under the LGBTQ umbrella. It's an example of a restaurant where politics are very embedded into the ethos of the restaurant, whether that's feminism, whether that's animal rights. It's an example of the ways in which queer restaurants have embraced social justice and activism in ways that bars don't exactly do. I think Bloodroot is a really fantastic example of the ways in which civil rights have formed gay restaurants. It's still open. I highly recommend traveling to Bridgeport, Connecticut, for a meal at Bloodroot.

Brian Lehrer: Jan in Dumbo has one. Jan, you're on WNYC. Hi, there.

Jan: Hey. Great. Yes, I want to shout out Superfine restaurant, bar, and art space. They're the first farm to table restaurant in Dumbo, and they just celebrated 25 years with a prom on Saturday night, which was very gay. They're queer artists owned and operated by three women. The menu changes daily, and they have the baby tea, drag queen brunch. The next one is Saturday, June 28th, and it's just absolutely amazing. It is totally my big queer family in New York City, and they have won the LGBTQ Pride award twice in the last couple of years. It's Supervine down in Dumbo.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much, Jan. Emma in Sunnyside has one. Hi, Emma, you're on WNYC.

Emma: Hi, Brian. I work in the food industry. I'd be remiss to not call in and highlight HAGS in the East Village. It's a queer couple that's behind the restaurant. Chef Telly Justice and partner Camille Lindsley. They define the norms of fine dining, accessibility, community. They have pay what you can brunch on Sundays that allows diners to try things like truffles and caviar that are usually inaccessible outside of upper-class dining. It's just a fantastic operation with wonderful, queer, joyous people. In the times we're in, I recommend people go there for a safe place and a delicious meal.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Here's an interesting one in a text. Erik, Listner writes, "The Ali Forney Center--" Ali Forney Center is an LGBTQ youth shelter and safe space. It says, "Ali Forney Center employees have mentioned McDonald's as a safe haven for underage queer youth and ask for McDonald's gift cards as donations." Were you aware of that?

Erik Piepenburg: I wasn't aware of that, but it doesn't surprise me at all. Again, going back to the notion of queering a space, if you're in a small town, or I guess even here in New York City, if you're in a small town and maybe the only place where you and your gay queer friends can gather is the local Denny's, then that's become a queer space. It doesn't surprise me whatsoever that a McDonald's would be that place for some folks in New York City.

Brian Lehrer: Since there's so much history in your book, is there anything that ranks or lives on as the first gay restaurant or identified gay restaurant?

Erik Piepenburg: Yes, for me, I think there are a couple options. For me, one that endures and is still going is Annie's Paramount Steakhouse in Washington D.C., which opened in 1948 and started to become gay late '50s, early '60s, when the lavender scare was happening in Washington D.C., and I was just there last week for a book event, and it is one of the gayest restaurants that you will ever experience. I mean, talk about pride flags in an all gay dining room, Annie's Paramount Steakhouse is that place. The fact that they've been doing it for so long, I just think really makes it not only a legacy gay restaurant, but in some ways a destination gay restaurant.

Brian Lehrer: Hey, we have an Annie's caller, Joe in East Harlem. You're on WNYC. Hi, Joe.

Joe: Hi. Thanks. I'm excited for your guest book. I didn't know about it, and yes, I called about Annie. You just said more than I could possibly say. I would just say I'm 42 years old, and I was introduced to that restaurant, which is 17th street, which is the historical gay neighborhood in D.C. I was introduced to it by gay guys, friends, generation or two older than me. It's really interesting that I think you have a pretty wide age spectrum there, and that these establishments get passed down. Annie's was passed down to me.

Brian Lehrer: Joe, thanks. Listener writes, Erik, on the value of a gay restaurant, in particular, when there are already gay bars. Listener writes, "A person can propose to their partner in a gay restaurant, the bar would likely be too loud." Pretty straightforward. I wonder if you could talk about the modern era very contemporary era in this respect, because some listeners may be thinking, like, in the last decade, maybe the LGBTQ community gained a lot in terms of legal rights and acceptance in heteronormative society.

Maybe, obviously, not trans people with what's going on right now, and the tide is shifting again. What's the role of the gay restaurant in the modern day, with the acceptance of at least being gay that has come over the decades since a lot of the restaurants that you write about were established?

Erik Piepenburg: Sure. I would again bring up HAGS in the East Village, which a caller mentioned, which is a very queer trans space. For a lot of the history of gay restaurants that I write about, there have been certainly restaurants that have been by and for the trans community and people who identify as queer, but not like we have today. I think different kinds of identities in terms of sexual orientation and gender are really flourishing right now, and we didn't really have those in quite the numbers that we did in the past.

Also, I would just say go back to Ohio and ask me that question. I'm not sure if even just being gay is something that you could necessarily be at your local restaurants sometimes. I think gay people carving out their own spaces can still be a very radical act in certain parts of the country. That's why I think gay restaurants will endure, because they're needed.

Brian Lehrer: Absolutely. We leave it there. Erik Piepenburg, journalist and contributor to the New York Times, and author of the new book "Dining Out: First Dates, Defiant Nights, and Last Call Disco Fries at America's Gay Restaurants." If you want to see him in person, he's got an event coming up on June 24th at 7:30 PM at [words] Bookstore in Maplewood. The 24th at 7:30 at [words] in Maplewood. Erik, thanks a lot for joining us. Congratulations on the book.

Erik Piepenburg: Thank you so much, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: That's the Brian Lehrer show for today. Produced by MaryEileen Croke, Lisa Allison, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Esperanza Rosenbaum. Zach Gottehrer-Cohen produces our daily Politics podcast, which today will be the RFK Junior Segment. Juliana Fonda at the audio controls. Megan Ryan is the head of Live Radio. Henry Serringer is our intern this term. Stay tuned for Alison.

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