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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. On today's show, we'll explain a section of President Trump's big budget and policy bill that will affect many of you but isn't getting very much press. It's the changes to student loans, both for new borrowers and for people who are currently carrying that debt. We'll also have astrophysicist Dr. Jackie Faraday from the Museum of Natural History back with us to give you some tips for watching the night sky for a few special things this summer.

For much of the show, we'll continue our coverage of the two big elections in our area. The race for governor of New Jersey, considered competitive, between Democrat Mikie Sherrill and Republican Jack Ciattarelli. That's coming up. The New York City mayoral race between Democrats Zohran Mamdani and we're not quite sure who else is in or out the mayoral race first. Here's our angle on it for today.

What is democratic socialism? Who are the Democratic Socialists of America? What is Zohran Mamdani's relationship to the movement or the group? We know that Assemblyman Mamdani is a member of the DSA. Most of you know that. You know that very fact is a draw for some voters and a repellent for others. Maybe you heard President Trump this week call him a communist and threaten a federal takeover of New York City because of it.

We've got several Mamdani clips about this that we'll play. We'll talk to John Jay College of Criminal Justice Professor Susan Kang, who is also a DSA member, but we'll start here. In the mayoral primary debate that I helped to moderate last month, candidate Whitney Tilson questioned Mamdani directly, citing language that concerned Tilson from the DSA website. Here's that 90-second exchange.

Whitney Tilson: Zohran, you're a proud member of the Democratic Socialists of America. You refer to each other as comrade. Right now, on the DSA's website, it calls for the government ownership of all major industries to decriminalize all misdemeanors, including theft and assault, to empty our prisons, and to disarm, dismantle, and defund the police. Your words are very reassuring, but this is what I read from your people. I wonder if you will disavow this or implement it as mayor.

[applause]

Zohran Mamdani: Yes, like David Dinkins, I am a member of the organization. The organization's platform is not the platform of this campaign. The platform of this campaign is the one you can find on the website at zohranfornyc.com. That's a platform that is going to deliver an affordable city for New Yorkers, who are currently being priced out of what is instead the most expensive city in the United States. It's one that we're going to deliver public safety to each and every New Yorker.

We're going to do so by recognizing the critical role that police have to play in that, and also by creating the Department of Community Safety so that police do not have to do the work of mental health professionals, and that we can follow the example, the evidence-based policies we've seen be successful elsewhere in the country, and start to divert those mental health calls outside of the police department so the police department can focus on the seven major categories of crime.

Brian Lehrer: Zohran Mamdani and Whitney Tilson from the WNYC-sponsored New York City Democratic primary debate on June 12th. We have more clips coming up. With me now is Susan Kang, political science professor at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, part of CUNY. She is author of the book, Human Rights and Labor Solidarity: Trade Unions in the Global Economy. You can find her as a commentator on platforms such as NY1, Jacobin, and Truthout. She is a member of the New York City chapter of the Democratic Socialists of America. Professor Kang, thanks a lot for coming on for this, and welcome to WNYC.

Professor Susan Kang: Thank you for having me on.

Brian Lehrer: Can we start with that exchange from the debate? Is everything that Mr. Tilson said is on the national DSA website accurate as far as you know?

Professor Kang: As far as I know, he went to the National Democratic Socialists of America webpage. I believe that what he said was correct, although I don't really spend a lot of time on the national webpage because I organize here in the New York City chapter. I try to explain to people who are like, "Tell me about this organization," which is that we are an organization that's pretty decentralized as a national organization that is in charge of certain national resources and creates a national platform.

We here at New York City, the New York City chapter of the Democratic Socialists of America, we come up with our own platforms. We create our own priority strategies, and we do that through a democratic process. Through our dues-paying members, we'll decide on what we decide to prioritize, organize, put our resources and time into. What Zohran is saying is really correct. We come up with our priority campaigns, what our strategies will be, things like, for example, in 2021, the Tax the Rich campaign.

What national does certainly is something that guides the national organization, but there's not a lot of control from the national organization with what local chapters do. Each local chapter is very distinct because they reflect the local conditions, the kinds of people who are members in those places. New York City has a very different flavor or vibe than, say, Chicago, Los Angeles, or the metro DC chapters, which are all big, major chapters, and then the smaller chapters. I know someone from the New River Valley in Virginia, which is a very red area. They have a very different set of orientations and goals, and values as well.

Brian Lehrer: Can you give me an example of some of those? People may be surprised to hear that Democratic Socialists of America chapters in New York and Chicago or LA might be different from each other on the positions that they take, or from a redder area of Virginia, for that matter.

Professor Kang: Yes, so I try to explain it as we're a very big tent, right? Democratic socialism can encompass a wide range of ideologies and political commitments. They could range for somebody who spends a lot of time reading Marx to somebody who is like me. I'm a working mother. I want to create a more humane community for my children to grow up in, right? I would probably put myself under something like a classic social democrat in the Western European tradition, but we all call ourselves democratic socialists because we agree that there's something that's not right about our economic system, and that it would be improved if we could make decisions together, right?

What it is is a commitment to radical democracy around conditions that are not just around politics and choosing our political leaders, right? Some people come through it through unions. Other people come through it through very local-level political organizing. Some people might come through it through traditions like mutual aid, but there's many people who are under this very large tent.

Brian Lehrer: That's so interesting that you described yourself as a European social democrat, because it reminds me, we had a guest on this show. I wish I could remember who it was offhand. It might have been the economist, Joseph Stiglitz, but it was someone sympathetic to democratic socialism saying they wished, instead of using the name "democratic socialists" like the DSA does, they would use the European version, "social democrats," reverse, which is the adjective and which is the noun, because they stand for the same goals and policies. Social democrat sounds less threatening to the masses than calling yourselves socialists. Have you ever heard that before, or have any thoughts on whether DSA is not the smartest branding?

Professor Kang: Sure, I've definitely heard that before. I think that what's curious is that you'll see, based on polling data, how the term "socialism" is taken is very different based on different demographics. Because it tends to be a younger group of people, for them, the negative connotations of the word "socialism" just aren't as important, right? I'm a Cold War baby. I remember the Berlin Wall falling.

My parents are also Cold Warriors. They came from South Korea. There's more negative connotations for maybe their generation, but we're also not calling ourselves communists either, right? The differentiation between social democrats and democratic socialists, they both come from a socialist tradition, like a trade union tradition, that had to do with very substantial criticisms of capitalism.

To me, whether or not you want to call it one or the other, they're very similar. They have similar traditions, similar goals. By calling it democratic socialism, we're focusing on the democratic component of it. The socialism is about being critical of capitalism. Whether your end goal is something that's very radical or your end goal is something that's quite reformist, there's space within the organization for all those commitments.

Brian Lehrer: Now, with that Whitney Tilson list of national DSA principles in mind still, let me play a clip from a speech that Mr. Mamdani gave to the Young Democratic Socialists of America in 2021. This was four years ago, but Mamdani was already in the New York State Assembly. The New York Post published a link to this speech recently. This is where I saw it. It is the New York Post. They did it in the context of a critical article about Mamdani. Here's a minute of Assemblymember Mamdani from that speech in which he says he firmly believes in one of those radical-sounding things that Whitney Tilson rattled off, seizing the means of production.

Zohran Mamdani: The many things that we believe, some of them are already popular in this moment right now. If we're talking about the cancellation of student debt, if we're talking about Medicare for All, these are issues which have the groundswell of popular support across this country, but then there are also other issues that we firmly believe in, whether it's BDS, or whether it's the end goal of seizing the means of production, where we do not have the same level of support at this very moment.

What I want to say is that it is critical that in the way that we organize, the way that we set up our work and our priorities, that we do not leave any one issue for the other, that we do not meet a moment and only look at what people are ready for, but that we are doing both of these things in tandem, because it is critical for us to both meet people where they're at and to also organize for what is correct and for what is right, and to ensure that, over time, we can bring people to that issue.

Brian Lehrer: Assemblyman Zohran Mamdani in 2021. Professor Kang, yes, that was four years ago, but he was already in office and saying that he firmly believes in seizing the means of production and that he wouldn't want to leave issues like that behind, but rather bring the public to it over time. Is that one of your goals as a DSA member, seizing the means of production over time, or do you understand it to still be one of his?

Professor Kang: I think that's an interesting sound bite because it's still something that democratic socialists would want to implement through democratic means, right? The thing about seizing the means is that it can mean whatever you want it to mean. To me, I'm a trade unionist. I'm also active in my union, which is the PSC-CUNY, professional staff and faculty at CUNY.

For some people, that could mean like you're taking over a factory. Other people, it would mean radicalizing the workplace in changing the way that workplaces operate, not just to maximize profit for the owners, but to engage in sharing, right? An example of this could be the Bob's Red Mill corporation, which is now an employee-owned cooperative. This would not happen through force, right?

It would happen through democratic means, through negotiations, through the typical kinds of protests and organizing that is possible within a democratic society. We can't use old-fashioned ideas of what "seizing the means" means, right? If you are a democratic socialist, it doesn't mean that you're using force, right? It means that you're engaging in democratic politics.

Brian Lehrer: Or it doesn't necessarily mean like the Soviet model that the government actually owns the major corporations?

Professor Kang: Right. To me, that's not what it means because many people within our broader democratic socialist tent, they're not even anti-market or anti-competition. They're against this kind of concentration of wealth and profit for private means. There's all kinds of different debates within our circles about what might this look like in practice. The one thing we agree is that we don't really know.

To say that we have a prescription of what this end goal of democratic socialism would mean would be stepping away from our commitments to a democratic process. People always ask me, "What's that going to look like?" I'm like, "That's something we decide together." I can't claim to know what we want our goals to be. I'm just one person. Sure, I've read, but other people have read, too, right? That is, I think, the main difference. I think it's difficult for a lot of people to grasp that because we don't necessarily have like, "To be a DSA member, you have to be committed to these four bedrock principles."

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, your questions and comments welcome on democratic socialism and the Democratic Socialists of America, or the DSA New York chapter in particular as our guest was describing that this is fairly decentralized, and their platforms can be different from city to city with, of course, the context being that the Democratic candidate for mayor, Zohran Mamdani, has been an active DSA member. That's bringing all kinds of commentary, pro and con, and mixed and confused.

Questions or comments welcome as we try to understand the group better and the candidates' relationship to its positions. With our guest, Susan Kang, political science professor at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, part of CUNY, and a New York City DSA member herself. 212-433-WNYC, call or text, 212-433-9692. We've got a few more clips to play in this context. Next, I'll play the short Trump clip from this week. Professor Kang, I invite you to define some further basic terms about democratic socialism after hearing this. This is Trump at a combination cabinet meeting and news conference on Tuesday.

President Donald Trump: If a communist gets elected to run New York, it can never be the same. We have tremendous power at the White House to run places when we have to.

Brian Lehrer: Professor Kang, that clip is getting a lot of press for the last part, where Trump threatened to potentially run New York from Washington if Mamdani gets elected. What I want to ask you about is his use of the word "communist." I think he was starting to get at this a minute ago. Put on your political science professor's hat and, in all seriousness, educate people on the difference between communism and democratic socialism, because Trump isn't the only Republican out there using it. In fact, Mamdani's Republican opponent, Curtis Sliwa, called him a communist on Fox News the other day. This will apparently keep coming up during the campaign. What's a communist versus what's a democratic socialist?

Professor Kang: There will definitely be people who disagree with me on this, but my take is that communism is the practice that emerges following the Soviet Union and the creation of the Eastern Bloc, in which there is some kind of violent overthrow of the existing state. The official state ideology then becomes one of a classless worker society. In reality, there's a lot of trampling of civil and political rights, a lack of freedom of speech and dissent in order to maintain this so-called communist project.

People used to use the term like actually existing communism to differentiate it from what people wanted it to be, right? It was heavily based on Soviet Union's military power as well as its economic power to prop up not always very strong communist states in Eastern Europe, but it also included various communist revolutions and other places as well. Obviously, China, Vietnam, other countries as well, Cuba.

I think that word is powerful among the right because it's associated with not only human rights violations, but also huge humanitarian disasters like famines, things like the Great Leap Forward, major famines, for example, in the Soviet Union in the 1930s through collectivization of agriculture. We think of it as strong state, oppressive like a Leninist state in support of a so-called socialist ideology, but not exactly. That's not democratic socialism, so it's very much a departure of both the methods and the commitments and the values that all of us in DSA have.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a text from a listener. This is a political question, and it says, "Your guest illustrates why the DSA will not succeed. The right is absolutely focused and has an orthodoxy. The DSA is trying to accommodate too many divergent viewpoints and ends up getting nowhere." Is that a concern from that listener that you can identify with?

Professor Kang: I understand what they're saying, and I would argue that that's not a DSA problem. That's part of the broader left's problem. I'm seeing a lot of people who are part of the democratic orthodoxy who are trying to repress vibrant, young, popular leaders who may call themselves democratic socialists or progressives or whatever. I agree that the right is focused, but the left is not focused because they're trying so hard to repress the young, energetic voices that are deeply popular with constituencies that the Democrats have failed to capture or have lost support from in the recent years. I agree. The Democratic leader should be listening to this texter.

Brian Lehrer: Listener asked in a text, "Please ask her to say more about companies that voters can make worker-owned. This is the best way to explain these ideas, and it's real." You mentioned Bob's Red Mill. I was glad to hear that. I eat their oats. Tell us more about that or other companies that might fall into that category.

Professor Kang: I believe that Patagonia might be a similar kind of worker-owned model, but you can't 100% quote me on that. I believe, at least, that was their organizing principle for a while. I do believe that some European companies follow a similar radical workplace democracy model, and they are economically quite successful. I do know of worker-owned cooperatives that are offering services. I'm not sure if they're still active, but there was a worker-owned rideshare cooperative that I was using for a while that somebody I knew through DSA was helping to set up.

Of course, there's worker-owned smaller businesses, service businesses like printers. For example, political campaigns that are associated with progressive candidates and Democrats have to use unionized workshops, shops for printing. We also use things that are cooperatively owned as well as unionized. I'm not familiar with how widespread these are, but there is a big movement towards more of these models.

Brian Lehrer: A couple of people are texting or calling about some of the language that the DSA uses. Let's take Allison in Montclair to represent that group. Allison, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Allison: Hi, and thanks so much for running all these segments about such important, I guess, local and regional and national issues that are occurring. I've missed a portion of the segment while I was talking to the person who took my call, so I know that the conversations moved on, but just about some of the language. I think the one you were talking about today is the means of production or taking over the means of production. Sorry, [chuckles] I pulled over, and a cop asked me if I'm okay. So sorry. [laughs] I'm in a parking lot, not on the highway, but I guess they're down here doing their work. Anyhow, I know the other one--

Brian Lehrer: At least they approach you to ask if you're okay, as opposed to, "What are you doing talking to a talk show on your car?"

Allison: I thought that's what it was going to be, but luckily not. I know the other big one that's been on in public right now, we've been talking about a lot, also is the word "intifada," right? Those are just the two that I've been thinking about now. I'm 55. I grew up very deep on the left. My dad is actually an expert on Ghanaian trade union movements from just before the end of colonialism to today. I'm very steeped in a lot of these issues, but I'm not currently active.

I appreciate also the discussion and the emphasis that your guest has put on the democratic process within the movement. Those words, I just want to say, as I've been listening over the last weeks to the discussion and today, those words have so much meaning. Seizing the means of production or intifada. I really do want the young leaders of this movement to really be more specific and to use language carefully. I do think that it's going to be helpful to their ultimate policy goals to be more careful than they're being.

As your guest is talking about, it's a big tent movement. They need it to be a bigger tent. I assume they want it to be a bigger tent. For someone like me, even deep on the left, I still have people who are my age who are active in grassroots community organizations, like with the professional work. Old friend was a co-founder of Make the Road New York. I know this world, but we use language much more carefully than what I'm hearing now. It is off-putting to allies and people who would join. Those words that they have, they had meaning sometimes for decades or hundreds of years.

Brian Lehrer: Right, let me get a response. I think it's clear what you're putting on the table, Allison. We appreciate that. We do appreciate, by the way, which we ask callers to do if you're in your car. If you're going to call the show, do pull over because we just don't think it's safe to be focusing on something like talking about the big issues in the world [chuckles] while you're driving a motor vehicle. If you're going to call the show, please do pull over. Professor Kang, you hear what Allison is putting out?

Professor Kang: Yes, I really appreciate her thoughts. Definitely, people have different opinions on the kinds of language that should be used. That's the great thing about DSA. It's a democratically run organization. I would love people who maybe share your concerns to consider joining DSA. It's not an exclusive club that requires you have read X number of volumes of capital. I've read none, just FYI. I was in grad school for many years.

You don't have to be somebody with bona fides to come and say, "I want to be part of this movement. Here are some of my concerns. How could I get involved?" Also, I want to just really emphasize that the kinds of language that Zohran used to the youth wing of the Democratic Socialists of America is going to be different than the language he uses for a general audience.

That's why The Post published that, knowing that the language that he used might not be the language he uses for a general audience. Just like the language I use at an academic conference, it's not the language I use when I'm talking on public radio. I think that that's another thing to think about as well. That's not something he would say in his capacities as a candidate.

Brian Lehrer: Allison, thank you for your call. We're going to take a break and come back. I want to follow up on another part of Allison's call. She mentioned the use of the word "intifada." I am going to play another couple of clips of Mr. Mamdani from that speech to the Young Democratic Socialists of America in 2021, when he was a first-year member of the State Assembly and get your take on the relationship of DSA politics or belief systems, and what's going on in the Middle East or globally in general, more in the realm of foreign policy. We will do that next. Stay with us. Brian Lehrer on WNYC.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, and with Zohran Mamdani, the Democratic nominee for mayor of New York and the term "democratic ssocialist" or the group, the Democratic Socialists of America, of which he's been an active member, is new to so many people or confusing to so many people. We are asking today, what is democratic socialism? Who are the Democratic Socialists of America? What is Zohran Mamdani's relationship to the movement or the group?

One program note, as we've invited all the candidates who are currently in the race to come back on for another round. We do have Jim Walden, an independent candidate who's one of those committed to coalescing with other non-Mamdani candidates to defeat Mamdani if necessary. Jim Walden, who has his own independent line for November as of now, is going to be a guest on Monday's show. We've invited Curtis Sliwa. We've invited Mamdani. We've invited Eric Adams. We've invited Andrew Cuomo. We'll see who else accepts.

Our guest for this segment is Susan Kang, political science professor at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, part of CUNY. She is author of the book, Human Rights and Labor Solidarity: Trade Unions in the Global Economy. You can find her as a commentator on platforms such as NY1, Jacobin, and Truthout. She's a member of the New York City chapter of the Democratic Socialists of America.

Next, I'll play a clip of Mamdani relevant to the issue of foreign policy or global human rights in the context of Mamdani and the DSA. We know it's an issue in the campaign that Mamdani supports Palestinian rights and the BDS, Boycott, Divest, and Sanction Israel movement, and his position that Israel should exist as a country with equal rights for all, suggesting not a Jewish state per se. Here's another clip of Mamdani from that 2021 speech to the Young Democratic Socialists of America in his first year in the assembly in which he says, "It's easy to tell if a person calling themselves a progressive is a socialist."

Zohran Mamdani: For me, it's easy. Somebody will identify as a progressive. Ask them what they think about Palestine, and it'll be very quick to understand whether or not they're a socialist. I may be the first candidate in New York City politics to attack my-- "attack" is such a ridiculous word, but just critique my opponent on the issue of the Nakba and on the issue of Palestinian rights.

Brian Lehrer: Is that a DSA tenet, Professor Kang? Basically, to be a real socialist, you have to basically think Israel shouldn't exist as a Jewish state?

Professor Kang: Okay, so this was a debate that we had in our organization in the past couple of years. I don't think we do have a clear line about how we have to orient ourselves in terms of Israel, but rather that I think that people in the organization have a pretty strong consensus about the importance of human rights for all in a various set of contexts. Many people that I know in DSA, for example, want to organize around other forms of human rights violations, like outside the US, like other countries.

For example, I've got somebody that I know who does a lot of organizing around the Philippines, and people who do, for example, a lot of organizing around police brutality in Latin America. I don't think that everybody values this as their primary political concern as much as the press might make it seem so. I do think that there's a general consensus that what's going on in Gaza, what's going on with Palestinians, is not acceptable.

That's a deterrent to human liberation, but certainly not the only one. I think that what's interesting is how it has been so politicized and has become the major discussion point by most media that has covered Zohran Mamdani's campaign. Not just because there's a desire to try to "gotcha" him, but rather this is a broader debate within the Democratic coalition, like how central is this historic alliance with Israel, not just in New York City but nationally.

I think I saw a CNN poll saying that not just New Yorkers but Democrats nationally are overwhelmingly very sympathetic to Palestinians and support Palestinian rights. That could mean a number of things, right? It could be a two-state solution. It could be a one-state solution, for example, with human rights for all, which is what Mamdani has said in his debates and various interviews, which is a very popular position, by the way, in academia that the best solution-- There's an article in Foreign Affairs that one of my former professors at the University of Minnesota, no longer there, his name is Michael Barnett, he co-wrote this.

It was called The Reality of the One-State Solution. People should check that out if they're curious. I think that that's what the larger debate is because what does the future of the Democratic Party's orientation mean? Not just in terms of what the elites think, because it's very clear what the elites generally think, but rather what the grassroots think, and to what extent might a big difference between the leadership and what voters think lead to their continued electoral problems and failures, right? I think that that is the broader discussion here.

Brian Lehrer: I want to ask you a follow-up question about that, but let me root it in one more Mamdani clip on that topic from that speech. He says here that as a government official in New York, he has an obligation to promote pro-Palestinian rights policies.

Zohran Mamdani: As an elected official, not just in New York State but across this country, there is an attempt to move anti-BDS legislation through state legislatures. There have been many successes that that horrific movement has had. They will continue to try and attempt that across every single legislature. One thing that we can do is organize to stop that from happening. Now, that's not sufficient because that's us being on the defensive, but we also have to go forward and figure out how is our individual state complicit with the human rights abuses that are going on anywhere in the world, and then making sure that we move to dismantle that relationship.

Brian Lehrer: "How is our individual state complicit with human rights abuses going on anywhere in the world, and making sure that we move to dismantle that relationship?" The last words in that clip. Professor Kang, I think, in general, the focus on Mamdani's views on the Middle East are purposely overblown in this campaign by his opponents because they think it will hurt him when he's really running to govern New York on a democratic socialist affordability platform, centrally universal childcare, and things like that.

When we hear him say that in that clip from his first year in the assembly and we know that he went on to introduce a bill that would punish US nonprofits that aid the illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank, as the bill describes them, then it looks like, yes, his DSA beliefs have him using the levers of government of New York for that purpose. I haven't seen a reference to any other global human rights purpose from any other country. Does that record in Albany, rooted in the principle we heard in the clip, make it more of a fair topic for the campaign for his opponents in general?

Professor Kang: I think that this particular bill that I'm not super familiar with was seeking to strip organizations of tax-exempt status. There's a lot of strict rules around those things. I think that that's something that state governments do control. I know somebody who used to work at the attorney general's office that did do these kinds of investigations around NGOs.

My understanding is that the characterization of it as being a form of overreach seemed a little bit exaggerated. Like I said, I'm not super familiar with the bill. I think that this is a very interesting question because there's only so much at the local level that can be done when it comes to international relations, right? For example, there's activism around things like pension funds, right?

I've been involved in my own pension fund's attempts to divest from fossil fuels. These things, which aren't even that controversial, like most people don't want to put their retirement money in fossil fuels, are still very hard and take a long, long time. I think that the criticism can be made, but I think that what Mamdani has done in that legislation was start a conversation.

There was no way that was going to pass about what do we think is appropriate in terms of nonprofit tax status and the kinds of political activities they engage in, given that nonprofit organizations have very strict rules around the things that they do when it comes to political activity. I think that that's a conversation worth having. There's a lot of attempts to say, "Oh, well, this is tied to anti-Semitism."

I think that there's been a lot of evidence that Assemblymember Mamdani is not an anti-Semitic person. There's an article about how some of his top staff are Jewish New Yorkers. He has made very clear that in his administration, anti-Semitism would be a really, really important policy, and that he would not tolerate it. He would promote respect and human rights for all.

To me, that's what's very important to me in his context as a mayoral candidate. I think that his opponents can bring up what they want to bring up. Unfortunately, the oppo research that's been uncovered in the past couple of weeks has been pretty weak. In fact, it's been almost laughably bad. They're welcome to say what they want because they also have freedom of speech. I think it's not landing the way they hope.

Brian Lehrer: A listener texts on this, "Is what your guest saying actually true? In my experience, if you identify as even the most far-left, pro-Palestinian right Zionist, the fact that you identify as a Zionist at all is an absolute no-go, and you are absolutely not welcome," meaning not welcome in the DSA. "There is room for discussion about anything but that, it seems," writes this listener. How would you respond?

Professor Kang: I would say that this person has had an experience that I cannot speak to. I do know that there's a variety of opinions and disagreements within the DSA. I know that people will tell me that they disagree with everything I said today on this radio show as soon as I turn my phone on, which is why it's off, and that I disagree that there is actually space for a lot of disagreement as well as there's always space for overlap as well.

I apologize for anyone who felt that they were not welcome, although I would say that there's probably some views that are not tolerated. Some having misogynistic views, for example, would probably not be tolerated. People have come, and they've learned about different people's positions on things like trans issues, for example. One of the things that we like to say in DSA is that everybody's welcome, and everybody's welcome to learn.

They may not find that that's a space for them, but we have DSA 101s throughout the city almost every day, certainly two or three times a week. You don't have to be a member. It's for people who are DSA-curious. We welcome anybody who's a listener and in the New York City area to come. We have them both virtually and in person. People can ask their questions there. We certainly can't get to them all today.

Brian Lehrer: Tina in Manalapan, you're on WNYC with Susan Kang. Hi, Tina.

Tina: Hi, how are you? Well, my original reason for calling was to discuss health care for all, universal Medicare. I feel like that's not the topic anymore, but--

Brian Lehrer: Oh no, no, no, we're all over it. We took you because you told our screener that you want to discuss health care for all, like Medicare for All.

Tina: Okay.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Tina: Yes, okay. Well, I think that health care for all is a basic human right. I really do. I think it's ridiculous that in this country, basically, health care is so tied in to your job, or you lose your job. In most cases, you lose your health benefits. There is COBRA for 18 months, but that's so expensive. Most people can't afford that. Then, of course, there's the Affordable Care Act, which also has high deductibles and very expensive. I'd like to say that the only way they can implement Medicare for All would be to really raise taxes for rich people, because that's the only way these things work. The money doesn't come from outer space. It's got to come from somewhere. Even in Mamdani's campaign, I believe he was talking about free bus rides or free transportation, which would be great.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, free buses.

Tina: Yes, but how are you going to pay the salaries of the bus drivers? How are you going to have upkeep on the buses? The income has to come from someplace.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Well, that's part of his platform explicitly is to raise taxes on the very wealthiest New Yorkers and to level New York State's corporate income tax with New Jersey's corporate income tax. You're calling from Manalapan, which I gather is a few points higher. Professor Kang, anything on that briefly?

Professor Kang: Yes, I really appreciate the caller's concerns. Assemblymember Mamdani has been, not necessarily the lead sponsor, but a sponsor and a big supporter of the New York Health Act, which would seek to create something like a single-payer healthcare system within New York State. Those who are familiar with, for example, Canadian political history, you may know that Canada's Medicare system started in one province and then spread outward. I guess New York is uniquely positioned to implement this. It would require a payroll tax, but the payroll tax would be offset by the fact you're not paying for premiums and that kind of thing.

This legislation has been around for decades. It polls very well and people really like it, but there's a lot of obstacles. One of the things that democratic socialists want to do is educate, build coalitions, and to create the kinds of political momentum around things that are stuck to get them moving forward. Maybe it's crazy to think about a healthcare system for all. Right now, in this moment where Medicaid is being so devastated by our federal government, maybe there's going to be more of a political sense of urgency around it. I really agree and appreciate the caller's concerns.

Brian Lehrer: It'll be interesting to see how that plays out, especially with the new news yesterday that Governor Hochul said. New York State cannot possibly cover all the losses of federal funding for Medicaid and the likely loss of many, many New Yorkers' Medicaid coverage. They're going to have to figure out how they can best cover it, but there is Hochul just yesterday as this campaign is ramping up, saying, "No, New York State doesn't have the money to cover all the people who are going to be cut off Medicaid in the Trump bill." That's the beginning of that conversation, not the end. One more call. Cat in the Catskills. Did they name it after you, Cat?

Cat: No, but Brian, do you remember Convince Cat during the Bernie campaign? It's me.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, was it you who were on the fence about who to vote for in the primary?

Cat: Yes, yes. Man, I get on the phone calls with the political calls, so here we go. I'm going to take it off myself a little bit because I'm going to get too impassioned about that, but I'm going to stick to UFT, okay?

Brian Lehrer: You're a New York City public school teacher?

Cat: I am. I am indeed. You know that UFT just endorsed Mamdani, what, 24 or 48 hours ago? I listened to Mulgrew's meeting for us, his video meeting.

Brian Lehrer: Right, the president of the union.

Cat: Right. I've paid attention to the UFT saying why they've endorsed him. I think the biggest word that's coming up for me these days is "nuances." I've never experienced the amount of nuance, and I guess I'll say "backlash" that people are posting teachers, "Not in my name. Don't tell me who to vote for." This is the first time I recall UFT members adamantly opposed on teachers' chats and this type of thing, saying, "Don't tell me who to vote for."

Brian Lehrer: Based on what, in your understanding, Cat? I did read an article in The Post about this. They hung it mostly on Jewish members of the UFT who don't like Mamdani's positions on the Middle East and wanting the union to stay out of it for that reason.

Cat: Oh, I think that's a huge part of it. I think it's a huge part of it. I'm just going to say from my personal stance, it is a fair topic. It's very on-topic, and it's a fair topic. However, I'm going to say this. It's not about just Jewish teachers. I really don't want to out anyone's name, and I'm very, very cautious. There is a colleague of mine who is not Jewish at all who has posted something on their social media very adamantly saying, "Don't tell me who to vote for." There's a trend that's going on. People aren't going to know what CORE is. C-O-R-E is basically where you give a little bit more of your paycheck to go towards the political campaigns within the UFT. Anyway, people are now posting, "Take your money out of CORE. This is how to get your money out of CORE."

Brian Lehrer: Those are the dissenters--

Cat: People are pissed off.

Brian Lehrer: I hear you, Cat. By the way, since you reminded me of your previous presence on the show and, yes, people were calling in to convince you to vote either for or against Bernie Sanders in the Democratic primary, who did you vote for that year?

Cat: Well, I was just talking to my husband, "What was the race?" I didn't vote for Bernie Sanders.

Brian Lehrer: It was either Bernie Sanders versus Biden, or it was Bernie Sanders versus Hillary Clinton.

Cat: Oh, I voted for Hillary. If that was what it was, I voted for her.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Appreciate you calling us again. I think, in fairness, we can't take the posts of a number of dissenters within a union as representative of the majority of the rank-and-file. We don't know what the majority of the rank-and-file of the UFT thinks about this endorsement. The UFT did stay neutral in the primary. Maybe there's a bigger closing question to ask you about this, Professor Kang, though you certainly can address the specific UFT situation.

Your book is Human Rights and Labor Solidarity: Trade Unions in the Global Economy. What's your take on the DSA's relationship with the unions in New York in general these days? We talked to the leaders of the Working Families Party a little bit about them in this regard earlier in the week. Classically, the democratic socialist movement is a union movement or union-aligned. Many unions did back Cuomo in the primary. We saw what happened with some major unions leaning Trump in the presidential election last year. Anything you want to say on Cat and the UFT or bigger, how unified or how estranged the union and democratic socialism movement are in the US right now?

Professor Kang: These are big questions. I can't address them all, but there's many, many members of the Democratic Socialists of America, both in NYC and beyond, are active members of their unions. Some of us are elected leadership and some of us work as staff members, so we're deeply involved, right? Of course, union leaders have to make calculated decisions when they're deciding who to endorse in an election, especially public sector unions, because a mayor or a governor will directly make decisions on budgets.

I think that because the narrative was that Cuomo was favored, I don't think this necessarily reflects an ideological position, but rather a strategic one, a pragmatic one. I think the non-endorsement by the UFT demonstrated the real problems that Cuomo had as governor. He created Tier 6. Teachers may think whatever they want about Zohran, but there's no way that the UFT could endorse the Tier 6 creator, which, for listeners who don't know, was a new level of the pension for public school teachers and also pensioned professors at CUNY that would require additional contributions, longer work requirements, and less of a retirement benefit.

He did this because he didn't want to raise taxes on the wealthiest New Yorkers in an attempt to make the TRS, the Teachers Retirement System, sustainable, right? He created the second class of pension teachers, who are going to have a much harder time retiring. Eric Adams as well has also created these austerity budgets that have hurt teachers in many ways. I do think that I sympathize with the people who are UFT members who feel upset about this.

I recommend that if they have an organization like Jewish UFT members that they reach out to the campaign and have a conversation, because Zohran Mamdani meets with everyone. He meets with critics, right? Have a conversation and see if your fears are realized, or whether or not, in fact, he's willing to have a conversation with you, because he is. I've heard the opposite, though, because my friends who are teachers are generally under 50. They tend to be Tier 6, which was that they were ready to quit the union if the union endorsed Cuomo. It's interesting that our social context will reflect a very different view of what the rank-and-file says.

Brian Lehrer: Right, who we're following on social media and things like that, right? There is a partial answer over the last 50 minutes or so to the questions, what is democratic socialism? Who are the Democratic Socialists of America? What is Zohran Mamdani's relationship to the movement or the group? We very much appreciate Susan Kang, political science professor at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, part of CUNY. She is author of the book, Human Rights and Labor Solidarity: Trade Unions in the Global Economy. You can find her as a commentator on platforms such as NY1, Jacobin, and Truthout, and she is a member of the New York City chapter of the Democratic Socialists of America. Thank you, Professor Kang, for so much time today.

Professor Kang: Thank you for having me on.

 

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