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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, again, everyone. Let's keep talking about the election results now with Christina Greer, associate professor of political science at Fordham, co-host of the podcast FAQNYC, and author of the book Black Ethnics. Hi, Christina, welcome back to WNYC.

Christina Greer: Good morning, Brian.

Speaker 1: Listeners, we will continue to take your calls. Our phones are open at 212-433-WNYC-433-9692 with your thoughts, your feelings, your questions, your political analysis. 212-433-WNYC. Call or text 212-433-9692. Did you teach this morning yet at Fordham? If so, how did you begin to discuss the results with your students?

Christina Greer: I did teach. It's on days like today where teaching is a gift to me as an individual just because I get to be with the future of America. We filled out a worksheet before class last week, where I'm teaching them how to do political prospecting. The map of America, and they had to say which state would go to Harris or Trump, just so they could develop their political skills versus what you want versus what you think will happen and why in places like Pennsylvania, with Josh Shapiro, or Michigan, with Whitmer, or Wisconsin, North Carolina, Georgia.

We went over that, but I let them have a temperature check. So, we did just short writing exercises, where I had them write down their feelings about potentially unified government under a Trump administration, and then we just discussed how they were feeling. I specifically left this class on the syllabus. I've been in the game long enough to realize we needed a full class to just process whatever the results were, so we could look at the map. Look at the 2020 map, the 2016 map, the 2008 map.

Some of the things that were said, Brian, I have some international students whose parents are concerned about them and their safety. I had some students who have friends who are in the LGBTQ+ community, and what does that mean for their future? Lots of questions about, what does this mean for my future? This is their first big presidential election that almost all of them were voting in. Some are in mixed status families or friendships for documented and undocumented. Some of my Latino students were disappointed in Latinos. Then, I talked about the seven stages of grief. I just learned about two new stages.

One of my students said that she was confused, and I was like, "Well, maybe we've just discovered the eighth stage of grief." We did talk about the grieving process. I told them that they're allowed to be gentle with themselves. This is, now we're at the airport lobby. For the next few days, you're allowed to eat what you want, and spend money, and just kind of take a beat. You still have to come to class and be on time, but we're going to be gentle with ourselves. Then we talked about the future of New York and what this all means for us. That's kind of where we are.

On days like today, it's so great to be with young people, because even if they're confused and scared, they inspire hope. That's the promise of America. I'm a Black person, a Black woman in America. If I don't have that, then I really have little else.

Brian Lehrer: Well, I think confused, and we'll find out from her if she's scared, is Mimi in Brooklyn. Mimi, you're on WNYC with Christina Greer. Thank you for calling in.

Mimi: Hi. The thing that's baffling to me about this election are the popular vote numbers. In 2020-- I know the vote's still being counted. Okay? Right now, if we look at the numbers, Biden had about 82 million votes, and Trump had about 73, 74 million. Okay? It looks like he's a little less than where he was last time he ran. Kamala is around 66 million. She's at about 14 million less than last time around.

Speaker 1: Than Biden.

Mimi: I just want to know, where did those-- Than Biden. Where did those 14 million votes go to? I mean, I know the numbers are going to change, but it doesn't look like he expanded that much of his days. It doesn't look like it. It looks like he's getting about the same.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. No, this is a great question. Yes. One of the headlines, folks, if you haven't heard this part yet is, it does seem that Trump this time won the popular vote. Of course, he lost the popular vote in 2016, even as he won the electoral vote against Clinton. Definitely lost the popular vote in 2020, as he lost the election to Biden. This time he won the Electoral College, and it seems he won the popular vote. Chrissy, those are the same numbers that I've been seeing, the ones that Mimi cites. So many fewer votes overall, I guess, because Trump lost ground and Harris lost a lot of ground compared to Biden.

Christina Greer: Yes. Thank you, Mimi, for bringing in the data. There are a lot of Americans who chose not to vote, Brian. I think sometimes we confuse ourselves and forget that a banger year for us electorally in a presidential year is roughly 60% of the voting eligible population bothering to turn out. So, we did see quite a few Americans stay home. Especially in a place like Georgia, based on the registered voters, quite a few registered Democrats stayed home.

I think as we move past Monday-morning quarterbacking and really think about what the data says, is it policy positions? Is it domestic or international policy? Is it the fact that some people just did not want to vote for a Black woman at the top of the ticket? I mean, all of these things, we will have to dissect in interviews and the data, but we do know for a fact that many millions of Americans who could have and have had voted, have voted in the past chose not to participate in this particular election.

Brian Lehrer: There was so much reporting during the early voting period about how heavy the turnout was. Breaking records in Georgia, breaking records here, breaking records there for early voting. So people thought the turnout, ultimately, including the election day turnout, was going to be overwhelming.

Christina Greer: Yes, I think a lot of folks, we saw the rallies, and especially for the Harris campaign, the abundance of excited exuberance with young people and even older voters saying, "We're not going back." These are women who fought for Roe v. Wade in the '70s, and making sure that it was codified for their grandchildren. So, I think this is a moment where Democrats are going to have to ask themselves a series of questions about the coalitions that were and were not made, policies that were pushed forward, and others that were pushed to the back end.

We do know that voters go to the polls based on economic issues. How do you frame certain policies so that they are clearly presented as economic issues? Again, Kamala Harris is running both as an incumbent, but also a newcomer. We know that white women in this country traditionally have not voted for the Democratic candidate at the top of the ticket in a majority. So, even though a "woman's issue" was quite important in so many states across the country, that wasn't enough for the Democratic Party to be victorious.

I think as they excavate what actually happened, we also have to keep in mind the history of this nation, and what is for many people this morning, seeming like the calcified reality of anti-Black racism, patriarchy, capitalism, and white supremacy, as bell hooks has told us.

Brian Lehrer: Talking about confused and scared, as you characterize some of your students at Fordham this morning, here's somebody who's scared. Listener writes, "I am curious as to what the outcome of trans rights and safety will be as my community, who are a tiny portion of the total population, were targeted by millions of dollars of anti-trans advertising. Those who are surprised need not be shocked. All roads pointed to here."

Christina Greer: Yes. I agree. I think that people should allow themselves a moment to rest, but the fight has to continue, and it needs to be a fight for people who look like you and don't look like you. So, I really do implore people who are feeling down and out to take a beat, which is allowed and necessary, but we have to think collectively about what this means for particular communities.

We know that especially a potential of a unified government under Donald Trump, or even control of the Senate, and it looks like the Supreme Court, and Trump back in the presidency. What that means for so many communities, and the danger, the very real and present danger that they face has to be something that we fight on local and state and national levels.

Brian Lehrer: Rob in Morristown, you're on WNYC. Hi, Rob, thank you for calling in.

Rob: Hey, Brian. Yes, I listen to you every day. First time calling. Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts. I just wanted to share a quote that I came across on Twitter, I guess it's now called X, and the quote is this. "Maybe telling voters the economy is strong as hell when they tell you, in every swing state, that they can't afford groceries and gas was not the best strategy for the Harris campaign." That resonated with me because-- Let me add one other thing, and then I'll let you go. My brother-in-law and I-- He is a huge Trump fan. He's a truck driver, he happens to, you know, he's a builder, so he has a big house and all.

I chide him for getting all of his news from Fox News. I'm thinking about myself. I get all my news from NPR, PBS, and The New York Times. Maybe I am as guilty of just having one side of the picture, by getting my news from these three news sources, as he is from getting all his news from Fox News.

Brian Lehrer: Rob, thank you very much. I would say that there's a big difference between NPR, PBS, New York Times, than Fox News, which is an opinion outlet. If you said you got all your news from MSNBC, maybe it would be equivalent. I think it's one thing to get news from a partisan outlet, and another thing to get news from nonpartisan outlets that do represent, as we represent, multiple points of view, but nevertheless, Rob, I hear you. Christina, what about the tweet that he quoted there? "Maybe telling voters the economy is strong as hell when they tell you they can't afford groceries and gas was not the best strategy." I reread that tweet.

Christina Greer: Yes, I think that is a disconnect. I mean, so many Americans were saying they felt strained, they felt inflation was real. Listen, I live in New York City, I feel inflation is real. I think the Democrats were trying to make a larger, longer argument. Some of these things are because of past Trump policies. Well, it's hard to campaign on what happened in the past. They were saying, "Well, because of future, potentially future Trump policies, you will have less money. Not just because of NATO and the fact that all these economists said that Donald Trump's policies are bad for us, but we have seen that this man will tank this country the way he has tanked various businesses."

That is difficult for a vice president who is essentially blamed for the current state of the economy, under a Biden-Harris administration, and framing abortion rights and a woman's right to choose as an economic issue, which it is. Right? Adding another mouth to feed at the table is most definitely an economic issue, but so many people, Brian, as we've seen across the country, A, did not make that connection, or B, didn't care. I think one of my students brought up the conversation.

It's like, what else could she have done? Because the economy did come up, policy did come up, but it is very difficult to convince people to either turn out or to vote for the party in power when they don't feel like their pocketbook issues are being addressed. Just as another side point, so many people that I talked to in some certain focus groups blamed Barack Obama for not changing their economic circumstance, and were blaming Kamala Harris as she won't do what Barack Obama didn't do either. So, she was sort of being penalized for some of the failures of the Democratic Party from the 2008, 2016 era.

Brian Lehrer: Well, how much do you-- How should I put this? Did the Republicans more win this election or did the Democrats more lose it, to the point you were just making?

Christina Greer: Yes. That one's hard for me to answer right now, Brian. Only because the cult of Donald Trump and what he sells this country is so intoxicating, because he's not really a party. We saw so many Republicans siding with Democrats for this particular election. Donald Trump sells a particular brand of American whiteness that is incredibly unique, and it's very intoxicating, and it explains how he chipped away at certain Black voters, and certain Latino and Asian voters. There is a certain level of power and white supremacy that he has been selling this country for a very long time, because he's been in our homes and in our living rooms.

That people will ignore their own realities in order to drink that very potent American ale that Donald Trump is very, very good at articulating. It is baffling to some, to your caller's point. He doesn't understand how people can listen to this vitriol and go in a particular direction. This is why public radio is so important. Please donate, so we can have these substantive conversations. Democrats, I mean, honestly, Brian, how much better of a campaign could the Democrats have run? I mean, possibly utilizing Joe Biden a bit more in Pennsylvania to articulate economic issues, but Democrats and their surrogates talked about economic issues.

They talked about kitchen table issues. The reality for some is that they've been feeling a post COVID inflation strain. That is a reality, but I don't think that Democrats downplayed it as much as they're being accused of.

Brian Lehrer: Well, we do hear some criticism from the left part of the base of the party about Harris campaigning so cautiously. Right? She downplayed climate, she backed away from Biden proposals like national rent control and universal pre-K, pocketbook issues, and hardly ever talked about his student loan forgiveness. She withdrew her own previous support for Medicare for All. She refused to let a Palestinian supporter speak at the DNC. She never campaigned on the prospect of becoming the first woman, or Black woman, or South Asian US President and what that could mean for others of her various backgrounds. How do you think any of this might have played into her defeat?

Christina Greer: Yes, I think those are all very valid critiques and strategic choices that were made, but I think that that party recognized that as a Black woman running on the top of the ticket, let's not highlight the fact that it's a Black woman running on the top of the ticket. Percentage wise, that's actually not going to help us win. There are so many polls where folks were saying, "I didn't go to college, I don't like loan forgiveness." Or, "I did go to college, and I paid my loans, and I don't think these people should have loan forgiveness."

That's one where it's like, "Let's downplay that." In the building of the coalition and trying to capture, if we think about that distribution curve that they constantly put on the board, where so many Democrats are trying to get folks in the middle, the independents and the weak leaning Republicans. Thinking and hoping that the more left part of the party will have no place else to go but to also vote, because that's what the right does for the Republican Party, and that was not the case. Many people felt that obviously Gaza and Palestine and the conversations that are going on internationally, needed to be at the forefront, and in certain states penalize Democrats for not doing as much.

I think when we add it all together, you've got strategic choices that were made for a very unique candidate in a moment in time with a very short runway, but we cannot ignore the racial and gender aspect of this very historic campaign, and trying to build the biggest coalition possible. Now, we have seen that many young people and many people to the far left were disappointed in that, but this is a woman running against essentially the picture of white supremacy. As my grandmother used to always say, the only time you should be surprised is when you're surprised.

I am not surprised by these results. I don't think many Black women in this country are surprised by these results, because we understand the complexity of the electoral process. I think Kamala Harris and many people in the Democratic Party were hoping to get her over the hump of the electoral process, and then the governance process would be able to be a lot more complex and nuanced with so many different Democratic voices.

Brian Lehrer: John, in Montclair, you're on WNYC with Fordham political science professor, Christina Greer. Hi, John.

John: Hello, Mr. Lehrer, and hello, Mrs. Christina. Thank you for having me on. I just wanted to say, I am based out of Montclair, I'm a Black Latino myself. I think the Democratic Party didn't realize that a strong portion or a majority of the base comes from conservative backgrounds in Latin America. Many leaders, many of the people in our community feel very comfortable with conservative values. I think they haven't appealed to that base, which is why you see a lot of them going to the right. Second of all, I think that color wasn't an issue in this election. I think it was that we didn't have a dynamic candidate.

To beat somebody like Donald Trump, you need someone more dynamic. We just didn't have that. I think she could have shown a lot more strength regarding immigration, because that's a perception thing. For example, our Latin and Black and our lower income communities in New Jersey, Section 8 wait lists are 7 or 5 to 10 years long. You're waiting that long for government assistance, but there are people that are coming into our country, which everyone deserves housing, and they're getting assistance within months. How does that make our communities feel? It's a perception thing.

I think she would have been an incredible candidate, but I don't think the Democratic Party and the strategist realized how important those key factors are. We saw a very strong, strong response to Michelle Obama. Realistically, everyone knows if she would have ran, she would have won, but we didn't have that same enthusiasm for Vice President Harris. I want to thank you guys for having me on the show, and go America, because nonetheless, it doesn't matter who's president. This is one of the greatest, if not better said, the greatest country in America. God bless everyone here.

Brian Lehrer: John, thank you very much for your call. Christina, I don't know that we can say that Michelle Obama would have won if she was at the top of the ticket, but what were you thinking as you heard John's take?

Christina Greer: [chuckles] Absolutely not. Michelle Obama, God love her, but she has zero electoral experience. I think a lot of Americans like to do the fantasy candidates. One of my students brought up this morning, Brian, that I'm thinking about, obviously, is that Joe Biden chose to run for reelection, and it wasn't until he dropped out in July, that we have the short runway for Kamala Harris. This was a larger question that the Democratic Party could have had when they were going through the primary process. I think it's been less than 24 hours.

So, all of this analysis and these feelings are very raw and very real for a lot of folks, but I do think that we need to sift through. We're having candidate conversations, and then we also need to have voter conversations, because there are patterns to certain voting communities that we see time and time again, and I think we get hopeful that white women en masse will vote for what we call "women's issues." That does not happen. Democrats need to understand that that's just not the reality, so how do you build coalitions with other groups?

To John's point, the Republican Party has a lot of policies that would be very attractive to immigrant communities, and I literally wrote a book about Black immigrants. Because they've cast their lot with someone who's so rampant about white supremacy, it is more difficult for them to get immigrant communities. Not impossible, as we've seen with the data, but if they tone down that rhetoric, and possibly move away from Donald Trump as a particular candidate, they could actually be successful. Whether it's LGBTQ+ rights, or abortion, or parts of close borders, even though we know immigrants, especially in states like Arizona, can be some of the most draconian supporting border crossers out there.

I think that there's a field to be tilled for Republicans in conservative policies, but because of the road that they're on right now, which is couched in a Trumpian version of Republican politics, it makes them harder to get some of the coalitions that have been on the table for them for quite some time. I talk about party capture for Black voters quite a bit. Black ideological diversity is vast. However, most Black voters are relatively trapped within the Democratic Party because the other party does not address their humanity, by and large.

We're starting to see a lot of Black voters saying, "Well, I know that they said I eat cats and dogs, but at least here's my tax rate." Or, "They're not really talking about me," et cetera, et cetera. If Republicans, time and time again, actually tone some of that down, they actually could be quite competitive with Black, Latino, and as we've seen in New York, Asian communities.

Brian Lehrer: Trump, this is one of the big headlines from this election, was so successful in the Latino communities. This time he improved his overall standing to 45% of the Latino vote nationally, according to the exit polls, and the gender gap was just gaping. He won Latino men by 10 points. He lost Latina women by 24 points. There was a 34 point gap between Latinos and Latinas, but the fact that he actually carried Latino men, which neither Biden nor Hillary Clinton had done. So striking.

Despite campaigning more than anything on mass deportation. Let me play a clip of the new senator elect from Ohio. This is Bernie Moreno, Republican who unseated Democrat Sherrod Brown yesterday. Moreno, addressing the immigration issue.

Bernie Moreno: This is a new dawn of Republican leadership. We are going to advance an agenda that is an American agenda. An agenda that says we are pro-immigration, but not pro-invasion. We're going to make certain that the people who come to this country are invited here.

Brian Lehrer: He said the word pro-immigration in the context of that. I don't know, how did you hear that, or what they might actually try to do after campaigning on mass deportation, which doesn't mean that's what they're going to do?

Christina Greer: Yes. The key word I heard was invited here. I think that with the Trumpian brand of who he deems as a worthy immigrant, it's not coming from any of the countries that we typically talk about. I think Donald Trump thinks worthy immigrants would be coming from particular, not all, but particular European nations. Anything else beyond that is not worthy of an invitation. That's how I interpreted that conversation.

Brian Lehrer: Another follow up from that caller. How salient was the democracy on the line message when there was no primary this year that selected Kamala Harris? I mean, a lot of people might understand that the circumstances were extraordinary, that Biden seemed to go so precipitously downhill around the time of the debate. Then, even when we look back to 2016, nobody really stepped up to challenge Hillary Clinton except Bernie Sanders.

So there was a primary process in 2016, but a lot of other people who were considered more potential, more serious challengers, not to demean the seriousness of Bernie Sanders in any way, but a lot of more mainstream Democrats did not even bother to run. In 2020, Obama and Jim Clyburn helped the party coalesce around Biden. Even though there was a primary, a lot of people were in it at the beginning, in 2020, but there are questions about how much democracy there was in the Democratic Party getting each of these nominees through.

Christina Greer: Yes, and honestly, Brian, I wish we had more time to talk, because I would argue that 2008, 2016, 2020 were all very different primary processes, and the machinations behind them, and I think 2024 was such an extreme circumstance. This was a conversation I think Democrats should have had with Joe Biden well before we got through the primary process, and it wasn't had.

So, post-debate, the infamous debate in June, this is when you have a scramble, and I do think strategically it made sense for the Democrats to not have and "waste time" with a four week primary process where Josh Shapiro pokes holes in Kamala Harris and Gretchen Whitmer pokes holes in Josh Shapiro, or whomever, and then we sort of stumble into the DNC and then we have an even shorter runway until November 5th. I think that, honestly, Brian, it's a larger conversation to have about, especially looking at the popular vote, what Americans are willing to digest with a very, I hate to use this word, but charismatic Republican candidate who connects with people.

I mean, we would be insane to say that he doesn't. He absolutely connects with people. Sometimes to their greatest fears, their greatest hatreds, whatever it may be, but he still connects. At some point we can have, I hope we do have, maybe a panel or something, where we can look at all the nuanced differences between a 2020, a 2016, and a 2008. What we do know is that there are lots of thumbs on scales for heir apparents. It would behoove the Democrats, in 2024, to have a really thoughtful, robust primary process where they think about all the needs and wants of Democratic voters across, in a Jesse Jackson style, 50 state strategy to inspire people to come out to vote for their particular policies.

Brian Lehrer: Well, maybe we'll talk about it more tonight, because, folks, here's a program note. Christina Greer and I will be back tonight at eight o'clock for our latest edition of our national Wednesday night call-in, America, Are We Ready? Tonight it's going to be, America, Are We Ready for a Second Trump Administration? Obviously. Fordham University political science professor, Christina Greer, who's our guest right now, will also join me tonight and we'll be taking calls from all over the country. That's tonight at 8:00, as a program note.

We'll continue with Christina and more of your calls and texts in just a minute. When we come back, we're going to turn to a possible policy item in the next Trump presidency based on a clip of Elon Musk that we're going to play, that I could not believe. Made my head explode, when I heard him say it at Trump's Madison Square Garden rally the other week. So, stay with us for that.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. With 10 minutes left to go in our show this morning, continuing to talk about the election results with Christina Greer, associate professor of political science at Fordham, co-host of the podcast FAQNYC, and author of the book Black Ethnics. We'll get to a few more of your calls and texts.

Chrissy, I want to ask you about a particular policy debate to come, as Republicans have the presidency and at least the Senate. We don't know yet about the House, but Trump might have two compliant houses of Congress, except for the filibuster in the Senate. Here is Elon Musk, who may get some kind of government efficiency effort to run. This is Musk at Trump's Madison Square Garden rally.

Elon Musk: At the end of the day, you're being taxed. You're being taxed. All government spending is taxation. So, whether it's direct taxation or-- All government spending. It either becomes inflation or it's direct taxation. Your money is being wasted, and the Department of Government Efficiency is going to fix that.

[cheering]

Elon Musk: We're going to get the government off your back, and out of your pocketbook.

Brian Lehrer: There's the richest man in the world saying they're going to cut taxes. He said elsewhere in that stretch that he could cut trillions of dollars from the federal budget. Implications?

Christina Greer: Says the man who has tanked several companies and doesn't pay his fair share in taxes. I mean, this is obviously a [crosstalk]-

Brian Lehrer: Who gets billions and billions of dollars in government contracts, government spending to him, by the way.

Christina Greer: Will have a very outstretched role in a Trump administration, because he understands flattery. We all know that Donald Trump responds to that. My biggest concern for a second term Trump presidency would be-- The first term I said he was casing the joint, and the second term is essentially selling this country for parts. If you take away the government, then people must rely on the largesse and the generosity of billionaires who then get to decide what education looks like. We know that the minute people make lots of money, all of a sudden they become education experts.

They get to decide what types of food we should be eating, or where we should be, and what cities should look like. The political imagination goes away, because billionaires decide what they want to see, and who is deserving and worthy. That is my concern, to have someone like Elon Musk, who is very clear with his vision of American society, not even being an American, but what he thinks this country should look like, it is worrisome. Especially for someone like Donald Trump, who is so susceptible to anyone giving him a modicum of flattery, he will literally give away the store.

So, whether it's an official position in the government, or just as we saw the first term, with his kids, having these advisor positions, but incredible opportunities to make money with foreign governments. Especially the political volatility in so many regions across the world, Elon Musk obviously has an interest in building or rebuilding certain areas. In a Trump administration, he and people like him, in the billionaire class, have free reign.

Brian Lehrer: Neil, in Jamaica, Queens, you're on WNYC. Hi, Neil.

Neil: Brian, Good morning. Ms. Greer, good morning. As a registered Republican, I am not a Trump Republican, and I never was. I really thought that this time around, with Kamala Harris, that we would finally get a chance to put nails in his coffin, put him away, have this Trump era go away. Let's get rid of this Republican Congress of opposing everything, but not proposing anything. They do nothing. I'm sorry, I'm just ranting, but like-

Brian Lehrer: I also respect the multitasking that it sounds like you're doing. Another baby makes its radio debut on The Brian Lehrer Show.

Neil: Yes. I'm sorry. Like, how did he get here? What was his message? He's improved on his numbers, and his message has always been a negative message against women, a negative message against immigrants. It's always them against us, and he's turned more Hispanics and-- like 45% of Hispanics have come out. I am so blown away by that. I'm blown away to the fact that more African Americans haven't come out for Kamala Harris. It kind of, I just hope-- It tells me like more people have listened, and have heard, and agreed with his message.

Brian Lehrer: Yes.

Neil: His negative message. That messaging is going to be with us for the next 20, 25 years, maybe.

Brian Lehrer: Neil, what's your baby's name?

Neil: His name is Israel.

Brian Lehrer: Israel?

Neil: I'm feeding him right now. He's six months old.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, you're a good kid, and sounds like you have a good papa. Neil, thank you very much for your call. Nora, in Westchester, you're on WNYC. Hi, Nora.

Nora: Hi. Yes. There was a recent episode on This American Life. It was the last one, and it was called A Small Thing that Gives Me Hope. After the prologue, the first story was about this couple. The man was a very right-wing Republican and Trumper, the woman was a very progressive, left leaning, I guess, registered Democrat. They were in their 60s. They'd been married for years and years, but in recent years, the political divide was really taking a toll on their marriage. They started listening to a podcast called Tangle. I never heard of it before, and the man who does it.

What he would do was he would pick a issue and then he would digest all this, all the media on it. Include everything. From Fox and Breitbart, all the way across to The Atlantic and The Nation. Then he would write about it. They found that he-- The fact-- I think what's underneath a lot of what we're talking about that we don't talk about is emotionally, as soon as people sniff contempt, as soon as they sniff, like, "What? Are you crazy? You can't really believe this." They're not going to hear anything past that.

That feeling of being dismissed and put down just finishes any chance. Because this guy didn't do that, it wasn't that hopeful ending you might hope for, because the man still hadn't decided not to vote for Trump, but he had come to the conclusion that the 2020 election was not stolen, which he had never believed before. There was another man who had this kind of conflict with his son, who said, "Trump made a fool of me in front of my son. He lied to me about that election, and now I don't appreciate that."

Brian Lehrer: Nora, I'm going to have to leave it there, because we're running out of time in the show, but there's an important lesson, I think, in Nora's story, for how we talk to each other in this country. Right, Christina?

Christina Greer: Yes, absolutely, Brian. I think I just keep reminding my students, and also myself, the beauty and the curse of America is that it ebbs and flows. So, am I disappointed? Yes. Am I surprised? No. I think that people have to recognize that the changes that they want to see are not going to happen every four years. It has to be a consistent marathon of an effort. I don't know how many people fully understand that.

So I think people need to take a beat and allow themselves to grieve and go through all the 5, 7, 10 stages of grief that there may be, but it has to be a more steadfast and longitudinal series of conversations about not just what went wrong, but what does the future of this nation look like, and how can the Democratic Party, or whatever party you support, make that happen? I don't know if the Democratic Party, I don't know if the Democratic Party is the leadership on the party structure to have that. That's another thing that they're going to have to figure out is, who will be in charge of setting that table and making sure that those hard conversations are had?

Brian Lehrer: Well, let's have more of that conversation tonight, folks. Christina Greer will join me for, I guess, what's going to be the last in our election season run of, America, Are We Ready? Specials. Our Wednesday night national call-in for the election season. That'll be at eight o'clock tonight, Eastern Time. We've been taking calls from all over our region this morning. We'll take calls from all over the country tonight, with Christina Greer, who is political science professor at Fordham, co-host of the podcast FAQNYC, and author of the book Black Ethnics. Talk to you tonight.

 

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