[MUSIC]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Early voting in New York's Democratic mayoral primary is set to begin in just 15 days, Saturday, June 14th, some mail in ballots are already in people's hands, and they can vote today. As you contemplate your ranked choice voting strategy among this vast field, if you are a registered Democrat in New York City, we'll become covering where these mayoral candidates stand on some of the most pressing issues in this year's race.

Remember, we're only doing this for the Democratic primary, because there only is a Democratic primary. Curtis Sliwa is the apparent nominee for the Republican Party, and we'll talk more about him in the general election season. Today, we'll look at each candidate's pitch to voters on childcare in the primary, one of the larger costs, people say the second largest cost after housing that working class families endure in the city.

According to the Fiscal Policy Institute think tank, families with young children are twice as likely to leave New York City as those without them, and this makes sense, right? Given the average estimated cost of child care for infants and toddlers, according to FBI, is between $18,000 and $26,000 a year. The candidates have a vast range of solutions to the ballooning cost of caring for children in the city.

Some are looking at the years before kids enter into formal education, while others are focused on after-school programs to help parents fill the gap between the last school bell, and the end of the workday for children of those ages. Joining me now to parse through these child care proposals is Madina Touré, New York Education Policy and Politics Reporter for Politico New York. Madina, many thanks for coming on with us today.

Madina Touré: Hi, thank you for having me. Brian. Hi.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, you're invited too, as you hear what these mayoral candidates have to offer. We want to know what are your child care needs, and how much are you prioritizing child care, as you consider who to rank first, second, third and so on? Has the cost of caring for your children led you to contemplate a move out of New York City for that matter?

If so, would any of these plans alleviate your financial woes, and change that plan, or your consideration of that plan? 212-433-WNYC. We can also help you navigate your choice if this is an issue priority for you by answering your questions. 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692, call or text. Madina, is it accurate to say, first off, that there are two camps that these proposals fall under? Early childhood, meaning, before school age, and after school?

Madina Touré: That's an accurate assessment. I mean, just to give you guys a sense of what we're hearing, I think, some of the candidates have been talking about, as you said, expanding childcare to earlier ages. Brad Lander, for example, has been talking about 2-K for all, which is something that has been a push by groups like New Yorkers United for Childcare to have universal childcare for two-year-olds.

He's talking about doing that. Zohran Mamdani is talking about free childcare for children between the ages of six and five years old. Jessica Ramos also is talking about expanding universal childcare to all children under the age of five, so that's the camp that's really focusing on this idea of expansion.

Brian Lehrer: Six months, right? Jessica Ramos, six months to five years, to be clear?

Madina Touré: Yes. Then, the other candidates, like Zellnor Myrie is focusing on, and mind you, all the candidates have spoken about protecting, or expanding access to 3-K and pre-K, and all of that, but Zellnor Myrie has been talking about doing a universal after-school program, and really focusing on that. He's in the camp of addressing this issue of parents who work long hours. Scott Stringer also wants to extend the school day, so, yes, there's these two differing camps.

I should say also that the former Governor Andrew Cuomo is not really talking about use of universal childcare as much, but he is talking about promising to ensure that every three-year-old has a slot, which is an interesting take, given the fact that when the former Mayor de Blasio was trying to do universal pre-K, he was not supportive of the push to fund that through a tax on the wealthy, though he eventually financed it, so that's the gist of what the candidates are pushing for that's--

Brian Lehrer: The Cuomo position would basically be nothing in the prior to age three camp, and no particular expansion of after-school programs, but trying to make sure that there's actually a seat available for kids, who want to enroll in the 3-K and the pre-K programs?

Madina Touré: Oh, he has actually pushed. Him and Brad Lander have actually both said that they would expand after-school, but I think Zellnor Myrie is a little bit more unique in that he's talking about a universal program, but, yes, the former governor is really talking about ensuring that everyone has access to a 3-K seat, but he's also talking about like finding space in elementary school buildings for preschool classes, and babies who are developmentally delayed, so that's-- He's not so much talking about universal childcare in the way that the other candidates are.

Brian Lehrer: When you use the word "universal", with respect to Zellnor Myrie's plan, what would be universal exactly?

Madina Touré: With respect to Zellnor Myrie's plan, he's talking about full day preschool for three-year-olds and four-year-olds, so basically, making sure that people have access to preschool seats not just during the school day, but beyond that. That's his approach with respect to 3-K and pre-k, and then there's also the universal after-school program.

Brian Lehrer: Does he have anything for the pre three-year-olds? Because we'll get into Brad Lander's plan next, who's targeting parents with kids ages two to four. Anything from Myrie on that?

Madina Touré: He's primarily spoken about full day preschool for three-year-olds and four-year-olds.

Brian Lehrer: All right, so let's talk about Brad Lander. He's targeting parents with kids ages two to four, like I said, in what way?

Madina Touré: He is supporting this push for universal childcare for two-year-olds, so basically what he's saying is, first he wants to ensure that everyone has access to 3-K and pre-K seats, but he essentially wants to expand the 3-K, pre-k program to two-year-olds, so that they have access to it too, so he's basically talking about making sure that people in the younger ages have access to it as well.

Brian Lehrer: We're talking about categories that overlap. I should really acknowledge that, so if we're saying kids up to the 3-K admission age, that's one thing, but even when we're talking about, like you were discussing with Zellnor Myrie expanding the universal availability of those seats, after-school is really important here too, right? Because if school lets out at twelve o' clock, if it's half day, even three o' clock, four o' clock, if it's full day, well, that's not enough for some parents who have to work till the end of a 9:00 to 5:00 shift, or something like that, right?

Madina Touré: Yes, exactly. That's why I think folks like Zellnor Myrie are really talking about universal after-school, and making sure that there's an accounting for parents who work long hours. I should say, also, that a lot of the candidates have also been talking not just about expanding access to universal 3-K and pre-K, but also about extended day year seats, about full-day 3-K and pre-K, so it's like people are-- Preschool seats that are not just accessible to families during the school day, but also making sure that there is childcare for people who work long hours too, so that is something that's coming up. I think Adrienne Adams in particular as City Council speaker, she had pushed through a pilot that would address that to have more extended day seats for working families.

Brian Lehrer: What I'm seeing from Adrienne Adams, or one of the things is that she's taking a more means tested approach, and looking at voucher expansions. Am I seeing that right?

Madina Touré: Yes, you are. I think she's been talking about expanding eligibility for childcare subsidies to more families, so more families can access them. Even in the City Council's-- Their response to the mayor's preliminary budget, they were really talking about. Even Promise NYC, that's a program that provides childcare to undocumented families, expanding that so more families could have access, so, yes, I think she's also maybe not explicitly saying like universal childcare for two-year-olds, but just talking about having more families be able to access these things.

Brian Lehrer: Now, let's talk about Zohran Mamdani, who the recent polls have in a much closer second place position behind Andrew Cuomo than even he was before in this race. He, of course, is the DSA Democratic Socialist of America-backed candidate, and one of the four backed by the Working Families Party. What's his plan to expand child care for New York City parents?

Madina Touré: I mean he has been talking primarily about free child care for children between the ages of six weeks and five years old, and he's also been talking about boosting wages for childcare workers, which is something that a lot of childcare advocates say is necessary, in order for universal childcare to work and be effective. It's interesting. He's talking about-- He's saying that it would cost at least $5 billion in city money, and that it would require some additional state and federal dollars.

He also wants to do new taxes on wealthy New Yorkers as another possible source of funding. Of course, that would have to receive approval in Albany, so he's also focusing on this free child care aspect, expanding that to earlier ages.

Brian Lehrer: Listener writes with a heavy dose of skepticism about this whole conversation. "Why are you wasting all this time talking about their different plans and proposals? Everyone knows none of these plans or proposals can be paid for." The listener asks, "How are they going to pay for any of this?" If you know specifically candidate-by-candidate. Let's start with Mamdani, because we were just talking about him.

Madina Touré: Okay, so for Zohran Mamdani, as I mentioned before, he's talking about new taxes on wealthy New Yorkers. He's also talking about combination of city money, $5 billion in city money, and then additional state and federal dollars. In terms of Jessica Ramos, as I mentioned earlier, she's also talking about expanding universal child care to all children under the age of five.

She wants to tax companies that have payrolls higher than $250 million, and of course, that would require approval from Albany as well. In terms of the Zellnor Myrie, as I mentioned before, he's doing universal-- He's pushing for universal after-school, full day pre-K and 3-K, and he's talking about using multiple sources, so savings from reduced city spending on migrant funding, personal income tax revenue, and tax audits, and he thinks that that's gonna cost, at least, $400 million the first year of that plan.

Scott Stringer has a unique approach, in terms of extending the school day, he wants to fund that through federal and state grants, and he also wants to do this Tri-Share program that was already implemented in Michigan, so that's a fund that would split the cost of childcare between the city, employers, and families. Then Andrew Cuomo, he hasn't really delineated a particular cost, but he was saying that in terms of achieving his guarantee of 3-K for everybody, he would offer capital and operational support to community-based providers, and also, focus on expansion in underserved neighborhoods.

Then, I think, I don't know if the other candidates have necessarily delineated how they would pay, but these are some examples, and so it's a combination of government funding, and also, I guess, private funding in some respects.

Brian Lehrer: I read that Brad Lander says that his plan would not require funding from Albany, so does that distinguish him from the pack? How would he pay for it with just city dollars?

Madina Touré: Right. I mean, he hasn't really specified beyond that. He's said in terms of-- As I mentioned before, he wants to, in addition to the 2-K for all. For 2-K for all, he does want to-- The universal childcare for two-year-olds, he does want help from the state, but for the 16,000 new seats that he wants to get for 3-K, he said he could do that with, or without help from Albany. I don't know that he's specified where exactly, but that's the most that he said.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we'll take some of the phone calls, those of you who are waiting to get on the air, and we have texts coming in as we continue to compare the New York City Democratic mayoral primary candidates on the issue of childcare. One of the top issues to New Yorkers by almost any measure, with Madina Touré, New York Education Policy and Politics Reporter for Politico New York. Casey in Ditmas Park. You're on WNYC. Hello, Casey.

Casey: Hey, Brian. I just wanted to speak to any of your listeners who are listening very intently right now saying, "Hey, this really applies to me," and who might want to get more involved. There's a really great local grassroots organization called United 4 Childcare that's four like the number 4, and they're advocating for universal 3-K and 2-K for all New Yorkers, so not just us city dwellers.

They recently put out a great survey after the 3-K decision came out, which some of your listeners will know was a real nail-biter for some parents. The point of that survey was to see if Mayor Adams kept his promise of making a seat available for all children who qualified for one. They're going to work to hold our mayor accountable for whatever promises they make with regards to child care, and advocate for expanding access to child care, no matter who we end up with as mayor, and if anyone's curious about learning more, or getting involved, you can visit united4childcare.org. Again, that's the number 4.

Brian Lehrer: I don't know if they make endorsements, or say what kind of program among the ones that we've been comparing they prefer as a group. Do you know, Casey?

Casey: They don't make endorsements as far as I know, because they're an NGO, but they did maybe a month or two ago host a mayoral forum, which several candidates attended. I know Jessica Ramos was there. I believe Brad Lander was there, Zellnor Myrie was there among a few others, and they shared detailed explanations of what they would do to expand New Yorkers' access to childcare.

Brian Lehrer: Casey, thank you very much. Certainly, this is going to be one of the issues that we raise when we do our Democratic primary debate, WNYC in New York 1, and the news organization the City coming up on Thursday, June 12. We will definitely talk directly about the candidates with this. I don't mind tipping them off to that. It's not a pop quiz. It's an attempt to get them to really lay out their developed plans on the most crucial issues facing voters in the city. Jay in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jay.

Jay: Hi, Brian. Thanks for taking my call. Yes, I'm a member of New Yorkers United 4 Childcare, and a father of a 15-month-old. Yes, I attended one of their fundraising galas. It was a while ago. We all went together. It was nice. Brad Lander was there and spoke, so that meant a lot to me. I think Public Advocate was there too. Jumaane Williams, and just his showing up and speaking in support, made a difference.

It's hard to tell what some of the other candidates want. Although I ran into Scott Stringer in Bay Ridge randomly when he was handing out pamphlets. He said he had the best plan, noting my hat for childcare, but he didn't really offer specifics. With Zohran, he didn't have it on his list of issues in the beginning, and I kept looking for it and now he does, but it's just a paragraph, so for us, our daughter will be two next year, so something concrete to help us would be really appreciated from all of the candidates, because the cost of pre-K is so high.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, so does what you just said make you lean toward Lander? Plus, the fact that he showed up at your event, because his plan specifically includes what Madina called 2-K for two-year-olds?

Jay: Yes, I think it does. I just looked at his site and he has a detailed plan which looks very substantial. I'm not sure where he stands on all of the other issues, but at least he has experience in office, and I feel like he'll have a way to get this done. If it's from city funds, I don't think we can wait for federal money. State money, maybe. The other thing I was-- I just looked up how much does it cost to lock somebody up in Rikers? It's $337,000 a year, but nobody blinks an eye, right? They just throw somebody in the slammer, and they're like, "Okay, somebody will pay the bill," but when it comes to childcare, God forbid. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: How much does it cost?

Jay: Right. [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: Jay, thank you very much for your call. We really appreciate it. One for Zohran Mamdani coming in via text. Listener writes, "Love that Zoran is talking about increased wages for childcare workers." Another aspect that, I guess, we haven't talked about very much Madina, because, is there a shortage of childcare workers because it's a low paying field?

Madina Touré: Oh, absolutely. I think it's definitely an ongoing issue, and one that a lot of advocates raise whenever they say, "Okay, in order for us to have universal childcare, we have to also boost wages for the workforce." Even during the conversations around the state budget, when state budget negotiations were underway, one of the big asks of childcare community advocates, if you will, was increasing wages for-- I can't remember the amount, if it was like $500 million or something that they wanted, because of this shortage issue.

There's a similar issue in the city. I think even when I wrote my story about the candidates, the mayoral candidates, different positions on the issue, I spoke with Gregory Brender from the Day Care Council, and he was saying any plan has to hinge on boosting wages for the childcare workforce, and it seems like a lot of the candidates are talking about that.

Brian Lehrer: That plays in two directions. Getting enough workers to have the incentive to enter the field, and also fair wages, right? If that's a low paying position, how many people over the years have said, "Why do we pay people on Wall Street like they're more valuable than people who take care of our kids?" I think that's part of the argument there, at least, morally and philosophically. Deborah in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Deborah.

Deborah: Hi, and thanks for taking the call. I wanted to comment-- First, I support both the last caller's comment, and the fact that this is a discussion that's going on, particularly in the context of the political focus on family hardship. I wanted to comment on the real importance of attention to infant care. Families of younger kids tend to be younger families, because you grow older as your kid grows older.

Younger families are the poorest families, and infant care is the most expensive child care, because the staffing ratios are appropriately larger, so you need more staff, and often, they need specialized training to deal with infants. As a result, in looking at inequality among families, infant care turns out to be a really tremendous source of stress for low income families, families of color, immigrant families, and a source of real inequality in the experience of raising a family in New York. From a public health perspective, that stress takes a toll on both the health of the families directly, and from the perspective of having to trade off other things like housing, medicine, and so on, food for childcare.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and I guess you then might lean toward those candidates whose plans start as young as possible? Six months with Mamdani and Ramos.

Deborah: Absolutely. I love that they're talking about that. Yes. Up until now, a lot of the discussion has really focused on pre-K as an educational issue, and it is, of course, but it's a real breath of fresh air to hear people acknowledging that it's an incredible source of hardship and stress for families.

Brian Lehrer: Not only that, it's an equality issue. I remember when Mayor de Blasio was rolling out the pre-K program, that was one of the big things that he talked about. If you have-

Deborah: Absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: -a lower income than some other people who can afford private daycare, or private preschool, then you're hampered in your ability as a parent to make as much money as you can in the workforce, not to mention the child's being behind in an educational sense, which you also brought up, so there's an equality aspect to it as well. Along those lines, and Deborah, thank you for your call.

Madina, many of these candidates talking about means testing any of these presumably expensive programs. I know you mentioned universal in connection with several of them, but does universal mean universal? Could Michael Bloomberg put his grandkids in these programs, or are there means tests to make it-- Concentrate the funding where it's needed? I know there are arguments in both directions.

Madina Touré: From what I've heard from the candidates, it sounds like they want to make it accessible to everyone, but I would imagine that maybe they would want to especially focus on working parents, and people who really need it. I don't know if anyone's gotten too specific beyond what I've shared, but, yes, that's my sense.

Brian Lehrer: I know the argument for universal sometimes on almost any benefit, using Social Security as a model, is that if everybody's eligible, then it tends to become more politically popular than if it's means tested, because then a lot of people with greater means who may not need the program, start to look at it as welfare for the undeserving poor, so if it's universal, even if people with more money don't always take advantage of it and opt for a private school or private daycare, it becomes a more popular thing. Have you heard that as a political analysis?

Madina Touré: I have heard that. I think that was how the previous mayor, Bill de Blasio, approached it. I think the idea is just like, if everyone is able to have access to it, that does increase its popularity, if you want. I think that's-- Ultimately, the goal is for every-- From what I hear from folks, is they want to see everyone be able to access it, but of course, there's always an emphasis on the working class families, on low income families, because it's even more important for them, because they don't have the resources. Yes, making it accessible to all, but really with the idea of those families in mind.

Brian Lehrer: Is the Adrienne Adams' plan more means tested than some of the others? If she's emphasizing vouchers?

Madina Touré: Yes. I mean, it seems like from what she's proposed in her capacity as council speaker, it seems like she wants to do it in a means tested way, and start out in certain places. I know she hasn't put out like a formal-formal plan, but she has like done various things in her capacity as speaker, and so, yes, it looks like she's trying to expand it to reach more families.

Brian Lehrer: This probably does not apply to any of the candidates in the Democratic primary for mayor of New York City, but have you looked at what's going on in the Trump administration, where they're trying to promote trad wives, right? These old style families where it's the one parent, almost always the mother in their vision, who stays home with the child, while the other parent goes out into the workforce, obviously, usually the father in a heterosexual relationship.

They don't like universal daycare, they don't like universal child care as a concept, because they say it incentivizes, and subsidizes both parents going into the workforce, which ultimately, isn't good for the kids. Now, maybe they just have some kind of a religious agenda that thinks women should stay home, or cultural conservative agenda might be more accurate, but I presume nobody brings that up in context of the New York City Democratic mayoral primary, or do they even bring it up just to shoot darts at it, or don't they touch it as far as you know?

Madina Touré: Well, as far as I know, I haven't necessarily heard them specifically touch on that particular issue, but I think it does make me think a little bit about the Adams administration, and how they approached the early childhood issue when they came in, and how they were trying to build their own footprint, if you will, like with their own early childhood plan, their own early childhood blueprint.

I remember hearing rumblings of how they had like, reservations about this approach to-- Of the previous administration in terms of like expanding access to everybody. I think one of the-- I guess, the primary arguments that him and the former Chancellor David Banks were making was that, there wasn't really a careful consideration of where to place seats. It was just like, "Okay," and so they were like, "We're not going to do universal 3-K anymore. We're going to look and see where the demand is." Because there was this issue of seats being-- Like lots of empty seats in areas that don't have a need, and then waitlists in areas that have more demand, and so there was like a resistance to just like blindly expanding it everywhere.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and one along those lines from a listener, and then we'll be out of time. "Is any candidate discussing the approach they write of supporting parents of young children and alleviating the pressure of working, so they can raise their children themselves? Like ensuring job security after taking off for a couple of years after a child's birth, or an allowance for the parents." Anything like that?

Madina Touré: I've heard any of the candidates speak about that, but I do think it's another aspect of the conversation that needs to be there, too. Yes.

Brian Lehrer: We will leave it there for now. On child care as an issue in the New York City mayoral race, my guest has been Madina Touré, New York City Education Policy and Politics reporter for Politico New York. As we continue to go issue-by-issue, we'll probably do transportation on Monday. Comparing the candidates in the Democratic primary for mayor.

Again, there is no Republican primary. We'll get to those comparisons between the parties, and I guess we should say among the parties, because there seem to be seems to be the likelihood of one or more independent candidates this fall when we get to that point, but Madina, thanks a lot for today. We really appreciate all the information.

Madina Touré: Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

Copyright © 2025 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.