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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, we'll talk about an unfortunate casualty of the cost of living in New York City, the well-being of people's pets. Last month, the Animal Care Centers of NYC took in its 1,000th animal. With it, the shelter announced that it's suspending nearly all intake because of an overcrowding crisis. There are just too many animals in the shelter. A $1 million cash injection from the city that's coming might help. That was announced a few weeks ago, but there are larger forces at play here, too.

It's expensive to own a pet in the city. That's one. That's on top of the fact that the city is expensive enough even without a pet. Veterinary care costs have been skyrocketing. Also, some landlords don't allow pets, limiting choices when you move. Strays are said to be getting wildly more numerous. All of this together puts a massive strain on the animal shelter system and leads to more animals on the streets of New York. Joining us with a view from the inside and with some advice is Will Zweigart, executive director of Flatbush Cats, a nonprofit cat rescue group. Will, welcome back to WNYC. Hi.

Will Zweigart: Thank you, Brian. Great to be here.

Brian Lehrer: I know Flatbush Cats isn't a shelter, but can you catch everyone up to speed with the overcrowding situation? What does this look like from your perspective as the leader of a rescue group?

Will Zweigart: Yes, it's very difficult on everyone involved, trying to help pets and animals in New York City. There are thousands of rescuers who are trying to pick up every animal they can and trying to do the work that, essentially, the city should be sponsoring. I want to start with just a concerning issue that I'm seeing when this happens, when the shelter pauses intake. A lot of media criticism flows essentially towards pet owners themselves.

As you mentioned introducing this, this is really an affordability crisis. We're seeing blame placed on the shelter as if it's not being run properly. Mayor Adams allocating $1 million at the last minute without any consideration towards the reasons why these shelters are crowded. No one cares more deeply about animals than shelter employees and volunteers. Since closing, you mentioned that they have paused nearly all intake, so "nearly" being the keyword there.

Since pausing on July 19th, ACC has taken in over 896 pets after intake was closed. It breaks my heart to see shelter employees and pet owners being blamed as if surrendering your pet is not an incredibly painful decision, as if the safety net, the shelter, is somehow responsible for solving this problem when this crisis is really a reflection of poor decision-making by our elected leaders.

Brian Lehrer: Well, shelters take in animals from two buckets, as I understand it. Strays and surrenders. Are folks surrendering their animals more as of late? Do you have any numbers on that?

Will Zweigart: ACC tracks when someone surrenders, which, again, I think we need to have a little bit more empathy for what's going on when a pet owner surrenders a pet. That is the worst day of their life. They track data like, "Why are you no longer able to keep your pet?" They ask, "Is there something we could do to help you keep your pet?" You mentioned this, introducing the segment.

The number one reason is, I can no longer afford to care for my pet. Number two is housing, in terms of where I can afford to live, doesn't allow pets. They also ask people why they're not adopting. We hear this all the time. The number one reason why people don't adopt is the same reason why they're surrendering. "I can't afford it." We've been telling people for decades, "Don't adopt a pet if you can't afford to care for it." What happens if we actually started making that more feasible instead of blaming and judging people?

Brian Lehrer: What does that mean, making it more feasible? Subsidies?

Will Zweigart: Well, yes, if cost is the number one reason why people are surrendering pets and the number one reason why they say they can no longer afford to adopt again, the core idea here is really simple. The city needs to be making veterinary care, which is the number one cost of pet ownership, more affordable and accessible for New Yorkers. That looks like funding spay/neuter clinics, which they, by and large, declined to do with this latest budget.

Until we do that, until we actually look at why shelters are overcrowded, it's not that complicated. Pets can reproduce very quickly. If most New Yorkers can't afford a basic vet visit, if spay/neuter costs at a private practice can be upwards of $1,000 for a cat spay, it's not that complicated. We need to be making spay/neuter more affordable. Until the city plays a role in making that happen, we're going to be back here every year with overcrowded shelters.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, help us report this story. Has anyone listening recently, or for that matter, at any time, heartbreakingly surrendered your pet to a shelter? Call and tell us your story, and what you think can help other people avoid that. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. On the other side of that, are you thinking about adopting? Is your own pet a recent rescue? How's that going? 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692.

Maybe there's a stray, maybe a stray cat in your neighborhood that you help or that you want to help, and you're not sure how to, or even if to. We can take your comments or questions on any of these aspects for our guest, Will Zweigart, executive director of Flatbush Cats. Call or text 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Will, let's say we walk into a local animal shelter. What would we see?

Will Zweigart: Same thing that you would see over the last several decades, a group of dedicated employees and volunteers trying to do their best when they are legally required to accept every animal that crosses through their doors, but don't have the space for it.

Brian Lehrer: Are they putting any animals to death based on overcapacity?

Will Zweigart: I think it's really critical that we broaden our focus because I hear a lot of questions around euthanasia. That is a regrettable side effect of this overpopulation and basically having more animals than available space. I think everyone who's really passionate about this issue, we need to take a broader look and ask, "Why are we not holding the city accountable for creating these conditions?" Because we can't adopt our way out. I see all these adoption events. I see local media focused on adoption events.

We could clear all the shelters. If we snapped our fingers right now and we emptied out all of those shelters across the city, we could celebrate for a few minutes, and then we could get back together six months from now when they're all crowded again. It's very painful. It's very stressful. It's psychologically devastating for employees to be in that position. I think if we care about animals, we need to look at what role we can play in preventing that scenario from ever needing to happen.

Brian Lehrer: I know it's a difficult question, and I know you're saying we need to take a broader view and look at other solutions, which is mostly what we're doing. If they're going to euthanize some animals based on overcapacity, how do they decide which?

Will Zweigart: Brian, I'm not qualified to speak to that, so I don't want to speak for such a sensitive issue. I've been around this space for years. I know enough to know that this is a nationwide issue. More animals are staying in shelters for longer periods of time, so if you think about euthanasia being a result of-- There are other factors too like if there are medical conditions, if there are behavioral conditions. If, for a variety of valid reasons, a pet is not a candidate for adoption to be safely placed in a home, they're able to make those decisions. The fact that this has been happening for decades across the country really begs us to take a bigger look.

Brian Lehrer: Are you proposing a larger system of city-funded animal shelters? Instead of about 1,000, which, correct me if I'm wrong, I think is about the capacity right now, there might be thousands of animal shelter spots in city facilities or city-funded facilities.

Will Zweigart: I'm recommending something different. We can use highways as an analogy. For decades, we got really excited about building highways, thinking that it would solve traffic congestion, only to learn six months later that the traffic volume had actually increased as we built more highways and added more lanes. Using that as a parallel, we can argue that more shelters is not the solution. This is good news because we can actually allocate our resources and get a much better return over a longer period of time. The solution would look like New York City funding affordable spay/neuter clinics around the city.

Several low-cost clinics like the one that we built in Flatbush, it's called Flatbush Veterinary Clinic, several of those in every borough. As more New Yorkers can afford spay/neuter, which is how you prevent more animals from showing up at shelters, then we'll be able to reach a more sustainable equilibrium in terms of the animals who are entering and exiting shelters. I'm not saying we don't need more capacity for sheltering. I'm saying we should expand the pie. We should spend more money in animal welfare across the board.

We are not spending hardly any money in our $115 billion budget to prevent this issue. That needs to change. New York City is far behind, not even leaders, but just far behind the rest of the country in terms of per capita spending on upstream efforts like spay/neuter. If we want to lead here, if we want to be a more humane, more affordable city, we need to be taking action. That will have the impact that we're looking for, which is less suffering for cats on the street and less of these issues where we're getting together and talking about overcrowded shelters.

Brian Lehrer: This is WNYC FM HD and AM New York, WNJT-FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are New York and New Jersey Public Radio and live streaming at WNYC.org with Will Zweigart, executive director of Flatbush Cats, a nonprofit cat rescue group, as we talk about what's becoming a crisis of overcrowding at animal shelters in New York City and what happens to the animals as a result. Franya in Morningside Heights, you're on WNYC. Hello, Franya.

Franya: Good morning, Brian. Good morning, Will. Thank you for taking my call. I met with-- oh, I didn't mean with him, but I was actually at the hearing that the New York City Department of Health had on this very topic back in November. I hate to say not a notable achievement, but I was the only speaker who gave evidence with regards to the fact that behavior is one of the leading causes of surrender for overcrowding in shelters.

Let's also note that when people surrender pets, they self-report. We give our reasons as we give an animal up. Studies, and there are numerous ones that have been done on this, show that behavior is the number one reason. We adopt pets. These are not shelters, not full of pets that are coming off the street. They're full of pets that people own, and pets that people do not know what to do with when they have certain behavior issues, so they surrender them.

There's also a question of what is a cultural interpretation of when and if people want to spay and neuter. How can we address these things? By having behavior classes or equipping people with behavior remedies, and also humane education. Humane education is mandated by New York State law. This is also something that I brought up during my testimony, which we just simply don't do.

Brian Lehrer: Franya, I'm going to leave it there to get a response and get some other people on in our available time. How much do you agree with her?

Will Zweigart: I do agree. I think she's pointing out something that's very important, which is that even if we fund spay/neuter and veterinary care, which we need to do, city also needs to fund education and outreach. This is the same for any type of resources that the city makes available. Then they need to spend money to make sure that people are aware of those resources and how to take advantage of them. She's also right that behavior is a big concern. I totally agree that more funding and support is needed there, but you also need time to work with an animal. You need resources and you need space.

When we're dealing with the volume that we're dealing with, like a thousand animals hitting a shelter in a few weeks, that you're never going to have the ability to give those animals the attention and the enrichment, frankly, that they need in order to be a candidate for a good home. This is a numbers issue. I'm glad that she brought up the hearing. Let's talk about that for a second. What is the point of a city council hearing if the city council doesn't hear it? Our elected representatives did not listen to the rescuers who took off work, came down from the Bronx, waited for seven hours, imploring them to take action.

They didn't hear the DoH intentionally mislead their own health committee chair about the severity of this issue while declining additional funding, which is top-tier gaslighting. They are not hearing the millions of New Yorkers who are struggling to keep their pets right now for a variety of reasons. Behavior, housing, costs. Great leaders are accountable. Right now, New Yorkers need our leaders to step up, take ownership of this issue, and allocate meaningful resources towards upstream solutions, which includes spay/neuter.

Brian Lehrer: We're getting a number of texts from different people along these lines. I'm going to read one to represent the group. Listener writes, "I think the issue of breeders needs to be addressed in this discussion. The shelters are filling in part because people feel the need to buy animals as opposed to adopting. The breeding industry is, by and large, abhorrent, and the shelter numbers would be so reduced if people would stop getting these purebred dogs and cats." Do you agree?

Will Zweigart: I think there's certainly validity to breeders as an issue contributing to pet overpopulation. I think, again, though, what I'm looking at, and I've spent years researching this, I'm seeing far too much attention being placed against individual decisions, as if a few people need to make better decisions and, all of a sudden, this problem will go away. This is a systemic issue that's been going on for decades. Yes, we need more structural support.

The DoH is not enforcing laws that are on the books right now about breeding, about dog licensure, about having your pet spayed if they're outside. I know a lot of people go to enforcement as a measure here. I understand that instinct. Note that there are laws right now that our city is not enforcing. They are not spending any effort to go in and prevent breeders, for example, thriving in public housing. This is completely ignored by the city. You could point to 10 to 20 different factors for why this is happening. I just tend to focus on what I think the highest leverage, highest impact solutions will be.

Brian Lehrer: Here's Rebecca in Brooklyn calling in. A veterinarian, I think. Rebecca, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Rebecca: Hi, Brian. Yes, I'm a veterinarian in Brooklyn. I'm so happy you're talking about this topic. I own my own veterinary hospital. I am the sole owner, borrowed money from a bank, and run the hospital myself with my team. I want to say yes to everything that the speaker is talking about. I also want to put my two cents in and bring awareness to how the influx of private-equity-owned and corporate-owned veterinary practices in New York City are putting a lot of pressure on small animal practices, as well as really contributing to the rising costs of veterinary care, which I think ties into everything that we're speaking about.

I think that there are probably a lot of people in this city that don't understand the difference between privately-owned practice and private equity, corporate-owned practice and how that affects this topic. [chuckles] It's beyond the scope of what I'm saying to say here, but I wanted to bring that in because it's really important.

Brian Lehrer: Why is private equity in the veterinary care business? Is it that profitable?

Rebecca: Absolutely. I'm not an expert, but I'm trying to educate myself more and more on it as it's affecting me and my world. I think the same way it's taken over health care, funeral homes, nursing homes. It's all the same.

Brian Lehrer: Rebecca, thank you for alerting us to that. Is that something you're familiar with, the role of private equity in the veterinary care business, pushing up prices?

Will Zweigart: Absolutely, Brian. It's a huge issue. It's the reason why, for example, the cost of veterinary care has risen over 60% in the last 10 years, far above inflation. She's right. Private equity and corporate interests have moved into the veterinary space just as they have moved into other sectors. She mentioned funeral homes. Private equity and venture capital-backed companies now own around 75% of all specialty veterinary practices in the country, so that's your ER.

What does an emergency room have in common with a funeral home? Vulnerability. They know that if you have to bring your pet to an ER, you're not in a position to shop around. You need help immediately. They take advantage of the love that you have for your pet to make as much money as possible. This is not a dig on any veterinary employees. We should be very kind to individuals, but we should be ruthless to the systems that are taking advantage of the love that we have for our pets and using it against us, and ultimately own responsibility for the issues that we're having with overcrowded shelters.

Brian Lehrer: Let me go back to Rebecca on this, who I think is still there. Is there a way, Rebecca, for an individual to know when they need a vet for their pet, if they're using an individually owned one or a private equity-backed one? Also, is there a systemic solution to that, like a law? I don't know if you can ban a sector of investment from investors, but have you given that any thought?

Rebecca: Yes. [laughs] No, there's not a way to easily find out if your veterinary practice is privately owned or not. You'd have to do a lot of digging. Again, I want to reference. There was a Freakonomics series on this a year or two ago that was really helpful. If anybody is interested, go search "Freakonomics, who owns your veterinary practice," or something. No, there's not a way to do that. People who have been to their veterinarian, people who have a regular vet, and then they get bought out, people tend to feel that.

Then they come to my practice and they ask me, "Are you privately owned? Because my place got bought out and I didn't like it," right? No, there's not an easy way to do that. The solution. I'm not that educated on it, but it's very political. It's very money-backed. I know that there's been some antitrust, monopoly things happening in California. Maybe Senator Warren is doing something to try to break some of these things up, but it's huge. No, there's nothing I can do personally. If there was, I would do it.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for informing us so much, Rebecca. We're just about out of time. Will, you just want to tell people about your organization, Flatbush Cats, a trap-neuter-return group? If people feel like you can help them with something with their pet, is it appropriate to come to you, or are you just working with animals on the street?

Will Zweigart: Yes. To Rebecca's point, the private market, it plays an important role here, but they are really only serving and particularly like the private equity-backed practices are really serving less than half of New Yorkers. The other half cannot afford a vet visit at all. I want to land on a positive note. It's important that everyone who's really passionate about this issue understand that this is solvable and that we all play a role. Here's how we solve this.

Okay, so we start from a point of agreement. We all agree, the pets are family. That's not up for debate. Everyone agrees. Right now, more than half of us, over 4.7 million New Yorkers, are in households that cannot afford a basic vet visit. That is for several reasons, but also because our city leaders have chosen not to implement common-sense solutions like making basic veterinary care more affordable. That is a role that they can play. The exciting part is that we built a model already for what this change looks like. Can I share some breaking news on the show?

Brian Lehrer: Yes. We've got about 30 seconds, but I guess for breaking news, we can make it 60.

Will Zweigart: In less than two years, we completed over 10,000 affordable spay/neuter surgeries at Flatbush Veterinary Clinic. We are happy to help the city scale up clinics just like this all around New York. We should just all keep in mind that a better world is possible, but we have to make the right choice, the easiest choice. New Yorkers need more resources. We can fund that work privately. That's how Flatbush Veterinary Clinic was built. Over time, we need to ensure that our pets are never again left behind in another city budget.

Brian Lehrer: Will Zweigart, executive director of the nonprofit cat rescue group Flatbush Cats. Thank you so much for coming on, on this important topic.

Will Zweigart: Thank you, Brian.

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