Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone.

On the morning after another apparent assassination attempt against Donald Trump, as you've been hearing, and a fourth straight day of bomb threats terrorizing the Haitian community and others in Springfield, Ohio, Trump is safe, you've been hearing this. The alleged gunman, apparently a radicalized supporter of Ukraine, as far as anyone can tell based on reporting on what the person has done in the past, the gunman, who police say had an AK-47, is in custody. They say an AK-47, by the way, has the range to have hit the former president as he was golfing in Florida, about 400 yards away.

In response, Kamala Harris and just about every other current politician have condemned the attempt. Harris said violence has no place in America. In Springfield, Ohio, as you may have heard on Morning Edition or All Things Considered in the last day, Wittenberg University, which is a small liberal arts college there, has shut things down today because of bomb threats they received. Clark State College, which is the local community college in the city of Springfield, has also announced that they will be going virtual for this entire week.

On CNN's State of the Union with Dana Bash yesterday, trumps running mate and Ohio senator, JD Vance, seemed to acknowledge that he was elevating stories that had not been confirmed or 'creating stories'. Why? For the sake of getting media attention for what he considers problems caused by immigrants. Listen.

Dana Bash: It wasn't just a meme.

JD Vance: If I have to create stories so that the American media actually pays attention to the suffering of the American people, then that's what I'm going to do.

Brian Lehrer: "If I have to create stories, create stories, then that's what I'm going to do." When Bash followed up on Vance's admission of creating stories, he said.

JD Vance: I say that we're creating a story, meaning we're creating the American media focusing on it.

Brian Lehrer: Creating stories out of thin air would actually be more like it. According to who? According to the Republican mayor of Springfield, Ohio, and Ohio's Republican governor, Mike DeWine. Here's Governor DeWine on ABC This Week, yesterday, not mincing words about how fake Vance and Trump's story is.

Mike DeWine: There's a lot of garbage on the Internet, and this is a piece of garbage that was simply not true. There's no evidence of this at all.

Brian Lehrer: About Vance's claim that the people who are already living in Springfield are suffering from the large number of recent immigrants there, the reason he said he's justified in creating stories, DeWine said this.

Mike DeWine: This discussion about Haitians eating dogs is just not helpful. Again, these people are here legally. They're here legally, and they want to work, and they are, in fact, working. When you talk to the employers, what the employers tell you is, "We don't know what we would do without them. They are working, and they are working very hard."

Brian Lehrer: "We don't know what we would do without them," say the employers, quoted by the Republican governor of Ohio, Mike DeWine, speaking about the largely legal Haitian immigrant population of Springfield. Not a problem, but a solution, according to the Republican governor.

Here's the kicker, though. Asked if he could still support the Trump Vance ticket after what he called this piece of garbage they were spouting, DeWine said this.

Mike DeWine: I am a Republican. I think if you look at the economy issues, and these are issues that I think the American people are most concerned about, I think that Donald Trump is the best choice.

Brian Lehrer: Ohio Governor Mike DeWine on ABC This Week. Does anything about truth or hate or trying to subvert our electoral system on January 6th matter to America's elected Republicans? Apparently not that much. The battle over who can vote, when, has already begun. We mentioned on this show two weeks ago, getting it from national media, that people would be voting beginning today in the swing state of Pennsylvania, and starting last weekend, nine days ago now, in the swing state of North Carolina. Both those things turned out to be wrong.

In Pennsylvania's case, the New York Times, USA Today and Fox News, all stated that today, September 16th, is when people could start to vote. That's where we got it, from all that national media reporting, and we repeated it. I'm issuing this correction for you all. The website, Votebeat Pennsylvania, cited all three as getting it wrong, like this, it says September 16th is the day by which counties must start processing mail ballot applications, the forms for requesting a mail ballot, but the ballots won't be available by September 16th. That's because the finalization of ballots for November's election is currently being delayed by cases before the Pennsylvania Supreme Court. Court cases delaying the start of voting in Pennsylvania, that from Votebeat Pennsylvania.

In North Carolina, a court battle over RFK Jr. being on or off the ballot has held things up. That's where we will visit right now, North Carolina, as we try on this show to hit all the swing states between now and the end of voting season, the end of voting season formerly known as Election Day, on November 5th. We've already done specific segments on Pennsylvania, as well as Florida, which is possibly becoming a swing state, again, not a safely read state, according to the recent polls there.

With us now is Rusty Jacobs, the voting and election integrity reporter for the public radio station in the Raleigh Durham Chapel Hill area, WUNC.

Rusty, thanks a lot for your time today, and hello from your public radio colleagues up north. Welcome to WNYC.

Rusty Jacobs: Thanks, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: First, I see the alleged would be assassin of Donald Trump this weekend, 58 years old, lived most of his life in North Carolina until 2018, according to The AP. The AP also says he had multiple run-ins with law enforcement, including a 2002 conviction for possessing a weapon of mass destruction, of all things, whatever that was, according to online North Carolina Department of Adult Correction records cited by WITN TV. They say The Associated Press cites voter records showing he registered as an unaffiliated voter in North Carolina in 2012, most recently voting in person during the state's Democratic Party primary in March of this year.

Anything to add about this suspect from a North Carolina perspective?

Rusty Jacobs: That is the publicly available information. I was able to look at that. Unaffiliated voter. Unaffiliated happens to be the biggest block of registered voters now in North Carolina, overtaking Democrats and Republicans. Ralph, as you said, has that prior conviction from 2002. A weapon of mass destruction I think could be anything from a bottle filled with gasoline, up to something even more lethal. Who knows what that was? His more recent prior is in 2010, the same Ryan Wesley Routh had a Class H. It's a low level felony conviction for possession of stolen goods. Then at a time period between that 2002 felony conviction you talked about and the more recent possession of stolen goods, he's had an assortment of convictions for driving with a revoked license and carrying a concealed weapon. A prior history. Again, not a lot of insight into what is alleged to have happened this weekend.

Brian Lehrer: Turning to the voting process, have the mail in ballots started to go out yet in North Carolina?

Rusty Jacobs: No, but they are soon, according to the State Board of Elections. Just to take listeners back, the start date statutorily was supposed to be on Friday, September 6th. That didn't happen, as you said, because the legal battle over Robert F Kennedy Jr. ultimately, the state Supreme Court, which is conservative, it's got a majority of Republican registered jurists on that panel, and they ultimately upheld an appellate court decision that said the elections board should reprint the ballots. That meant about a two-week process of recoding more than 20 or around 2,500 ballot styles for each precinct in the state. That all has to be taken care of, and then they can start going out.

At the time that the state Supreme Court decided definitively that the elections board had to reprint ballots without RFK Jr's name on it as a presidential candidate, there were upwards of 130,000 requests already in. Again, the process was supposed to start on September 6th, but it's about to restart with these ballots, no longer with the, in this state, the We the People Party candidate, Robert F Kennedy Jr.

Brian Lehrer: As I understand the context, and correct me if I'm wrong, when RFK Jr. endorsed Trump recently, he said he was looking to remove his name from swing state ballots so as not to dilute any possible pro Trump vote. Do you have anything on who Kennedy was drawing from more in the polls before he dropped out, or how much support he had?

Rusty Jacobs: Not really, but I think just even anecdotally, in conversations with voters, you can tell that a voter, be it an independent, unaffiliated, certainly Republican, would be more drawn to the kinds of things he was talking about, kind of an anti-establishment, skepticism about vaccines. There was a big movement in North Carolina against the restrictions put in place during the 2020 COVID pandemic. Logically or intuitively, it would seem that he would get voters that were center to right, leaning right. He has made it clear that he wants off the ballot in swing states, as you said, and that effort has been successful in some, unsuccessful in others. I think successful in places like Arizona, unsuccessful in places like Wisconsin, and I think Michigan.

I want to note, when people talk about swing states and they lump North Carolina in, it is a politically balanced state. There's no doubt about it, in terms of registration numbers. North Carolina has not gone for a Democratic candidate for president since 2008, and before that, it was '76, I think, with Jimmy Carter.

Brian Lehrer: I was just going to ask you to go over some of that presidential election history, and we'll get into it a little bit more. I'll also ask you if that's the case, so solidly in recent history, how is it that they have a Democratic governor right now? Listeners, we want to invite you into this, too, specifically listeners with ties to the swing state of North Carolina, as we go, what we're calling swing state by swing state on this show. We invite your questions, comments, and your help reporting this story. 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692. Call or text with a comment, a question, or story from North Carolina, or your ties to North Carolina, as we do our latest segment on one of the swing states in the election with Rusty Jacobs, the voting and election integrity reporter for the public radio station in the Raleigh Durham Chapel Hill area, WUNC. 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692. Call or text.

Go over that again. Obama won in 2008.

Rusty Jacobs: Correct.

Brian Lehrer: Who won in 2012?

Rusty Jacobs: It was Mitt Romney statewide. Yes, it went back Republican. It hasn't gone Democratic in the presidential race in North Carolina since 2008, and before that, it was 1976. Presidential elections, in large part, seem to go right with North Carolina. As you pointed out, there's a split personality in this state. Democratic gubernatorial candidates have done very well. I'll just say a latest poll from WRAL, one of the news stations here in this area, showed that Josh Stein, who's the current state attorney general, Democratic candidate for governor, is opening up a lead over his opponent, Mark Robinson, who's the lieutenant governor. The same dynamic seems to be happening in the state attorney general race, which is important.

Brian Lehrer: Your Democratic governor, Roy Cooper, was even mentioned as a possible Kamala Harris running mate. How is it that you have a democratic governor and a recent record of voting Republican for president so much? Can you take us a little further into that?

Rusty Jacobs: I think that Roy Cooper and people like him, Mike Easley, was a two-term Democrat in North Carolina. Roy Cooper was a state attorney general for two consecutive four-year terms. He was a leader in the state legislature before that. I think he cuts a moderate form, a moderate position. I don't think he could be seen as radical in any way. I think when voters know somebody, they know somebody in their capacity as a leader, as a law enforcement officer, as a state legislator, they tend to possibly see beyond that partisan label.

Brian Lehrer: What do you see as the major issues in the state that make it at least potentially a swing state today, or that leave those Democratic candidates for state level offices doing well in the polls, as you cited? I'm thinking of the clips we played of the Republican governor of Ohio, Mike DeWine, who was calling the whole Haitian immigrants eating pets thing a lie in no uncertain terms, and yet he said, "Yes, I'm still voting for Trump because of the economy."

I'm curious what you see as the major issues in the state that make it a swing state potentially today in North Carolina?

Rusty Jacobs: The conversations I'm having with voters in various strategic areas across the state reflect what news media outlets portray as the top issues. If you're talking to a voter who's inclined to lean right, who's either registered Republican or registered unaffiliated, but leaning right, they absolutely say that the inflation and immigration are issues. Then you see, in conversations with candidates, their effort to capitalize on those sentiments. For example, I'm doing interviews with the candidates for state attorney general, and I was reviewing a candidate forum in which the Republican and Democratic candidates were speaking. Sure enough, the Republican candidate, who's a current congressman, Dan Bishop, when talking about the need to fight fentanyl, both to reduce overdoses on fentanyl to stem the influx of that substance into the state, he talks about it as a border issue. He doesn't define if it's a border between Tennessee and North Carolina, or the southern border with Mexico, but he portrays it and frames it as a border issue, which tends to lead people to think about immigration and undocumented people.

He seems to be capitalizing on that. By the same token, if you talk to people in suburban areas around Wake County, Raleigh, the capital city, you're going to encounter people who are talking a lot about reproductive rights. There was a Republican bill passed a couple of years ago that took the 20-week ban on abortion in North Carolina down to around 12 to 13 weeks. They talk about reproductive rights. People leaning left are definitely talking about defending democracy, and the right to vote, and then talking about public school funding. That's a big issue here. The Republican controlled state legislature has expanded the voucher option, where people who would like to have the option of sending their kids to private school, and people advocates for public schools say that's diverting necessary funding.

Brian Lehrer: Some texts that are coming in. One says, "I have an uncle who is a lifelong military member who's always voted Republican in North Carolina but refuses to vote for Trump. I think there's a decent slice of Republicans there who are refusing to vote for Trump due to his mismanagement of foreign relations."

Another one writes, regarding RFK Jr., "Whoever thought the day would come where 'anti-establishment' candidate would take votes away from the right?

On the alleged assassin or attempted assassin of Trump yesterday, who lived most of his life in North Carolina," listener writes, "His 2002 conviction for weapon of mass destruction was having a full automatic machine gun during a standoff incident with police." Is that something that you've seen, by the way?

Rusty Jacobs: In terms of the facts of that particular case?

Brian Lehrer: Yes.

Rusty Jacobs: No, that's not anything I particularly looked into or know about.

Brian Lehrer: Another listener writes, "Brian just totally minimized the issues in Springfield, Ohio. Here's a story about a recent town meeting, September 10th. Per this local news report, the governor and mayor are both blaming current Biden administration for problems of healthcare system and car accidents in Springfield."

Is there anything similar going on in North Carolina? Certainly it puts stresses on the resources of a place when a lot of immigrants come and need services all at the same time. New York City is certainly dealing with that as a public issue. We heard the clip at the beginning of the segment of the Republican governor of Ohio, Mike DeWine, portraying them as solving more problems than they create, that the employers of the state are so happy to have these new residents of Springfield who are mostly here legally and working legally, and the employers are happy to have them. Is there anything like Springfield, Ohio and North Carolina?

Rusty Jacobs: Not to that extent in terms of accusing a large enclave of undocumented people causing havoc, and eating dogs and pets. What you see is the issue being, I want to not just say necessarily exploited, but discussed in political races. Right now, the Republicans in the state legislature have finally, and I say finally because this has been an ongoing effort, but finally have managed to get around a gubernatorial veto and passed legislation requiring sheriffs to cooperate with federal ICE customs, immigration enforcement, and to basically require them to fulfill federal demands of, it has to do with people who are detained, undocumented people who are detained at the state level or in a county jail being turned over to federal authorities.

This was happening in large part, but Republicans have clearly wanted to make it a prominent political issue. There even a rift in the sheriff community. You've got some sheriffs in large urban areas like Raleigh, like Charlotte, like Greensboro, who say that efforts like this that raise fears in an immigrant community actually hurts policing because people are less likely to cooperate with law enforcement less. They get turned over to federal authorities. Then you have sheriffs in more rural areas, less populous areas of the state, often Republican, saying that people need to be turned over. If they're here illegally, they need to be turned over. In terms of immigration as an issue, you hear it on the national level, and then you see it playing out on the political level at state and local races.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call from your area. Here is Mariti in Apex, North Carolina. You're on WNYC. Thank you so much for calling in.

Mariti: Hey, Brian, thanks so much for taking my call. Yes, Apex, the peak of good living here in near Valley, North Carolina. I have a couple of comments to make, and I like that you're covering North Carolina. One is, I've been phone banking for the last couple of weeks for the Harris campaign, and it's interesting to hear the amount of open support that she's getting. People are excited about her. They want to vote for her. On the other side, it seems like immigration comes up a lot when people talk about, "Why are you still on the fence?" "Oh, immigration is a big deal. I don't think the Democrats have done enough." It's interesting to hear that despite everything that in terms of messaging that the Democrats have been talking about immigration, it doesn't seem to have really reached the core audience of these undecideds and the Republicans.

Of course, if you're a Republican, you're a sworn Trump supporter. It's very hard for any messaging to change that. For the undecideds, perhaps there's an opportunity to drill down on this immigration message from the Democrats to try and make this specifics clear, and then hopefully sway them. That was one thought that I had.

The second thing is, over the last couple of weeks, there's obviously been a lot of attention on North Carolina from the Democrats. We saw Vice President Harris come down here, I think Asheville, Greensboro, one of the cities close by. There was a big campaign. Tim Walz is going to be in Asheville. It's really exciting to see that they're paying attention to these swing states, especially places like North Carolina and Pennsylvania.

The third point that I want to make is, I think, when in the general media, and the reporter can talk more to this, in the media, when we talk about North Carolina, there's a sense that it's this rural, backwards, Trump supporting place, but actually it isn't. I live in a suburb of Raleigh, and I work in downtown Raleigh. It is a bustling metropolis, the demographics have changed quite a bit. Over the last couple of years, we've seen an influx of people coming in from the northeast. People from New York, Boston, I myself moved from New York, coming in here, bringing more liberal values to them. The demographics have changed. Because there's a large university system, there's healthcare systems, hospitals, there's a lot of highly educated immigrants. A lot of Indians are on visas, perhaps, or lots of generally educated Indian doctors, Indian engineers working here.

There's this large influx of highly educated, perhaps liberal leaning people in this area, and that's changing the demographics as well. Maybe a reporter can comment on that. In the next couple of years, we might actually see a change, at least in the urban areas. That's all I've got.

Brian Lehrer: Mariti, let me ask you one follow up question for you before we get the response from the reporter that you're asking about. I don't know if you have anything on this, but have you been phone banking for Harris since before the debate last week, and again, after it? Is there anything you can say anecdotally about whether you heard, from any of the people who you're calling who might be undecided or just undecided whether they would turn out, whether that seemed to have moved the needle at all in the immediate days afterwards?

Mariti: Unfortunately, I started only after the debate because of my schedule. Again, I live and work around here. I have a lot of friends, and just talking to the people, it's very hard to change people's minds. People are firmly in their camps. If you're undecided at this point, truly, it's really hard to figure out why you're undecided. You really have to be, I don't know, somehow immune to all the information around you, is the nicest way that I can put it. For me, it's been mostly after the debate, and people are pretty firmly entrenched, it would seem.

Brian Lehrer: Mariti, thank you so much for your call. Call us again, I really appreciate it. I could ask you a specific follow up question from that call, Rusty, or what were you thinking as you were listening to a lot of information there?

Rusty Jacobs: I'll first take exception-- not take exception, but I'll disagree with the assertion that the media portray North Carolina as backwards. There are pockets that might fit that description of the state, but in large part, I think North Carolina is accurately portrayed as a purple state. What does that mean? Exactly what the [unintelligible 00:26:27] said, which is there are very large, sizable urban centers. Charlotte, Guilford county, which includes Greensboro, the Triangle, which has Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, lots of universities, very diverse populations across both races, and ethnicities, and social-economic status.

That diversity and that left leaning. Let's face it, these are left leaning areas. That's rooted in those urban areas. You do have more stretched out rural pockets, ex-urban areas that lean right. That is why you have a firmly entrenched Republican majority in the state legislature, but statewide, you see more balance, or more wide results. I would disagree with that, but absolutely, I think the caller is 100% correct that attitudes are fixed. There's not a lot of wiggle room left. There's not a lot of margin for swinging one way or the other in this race.

According to the political scientists I speak to who really follow this stuff and dig down deep, it's going to come down to 2% or 3% of the electorate in a place like North Carolina. That's what's going to make the decision. Those urban areas are firmly entrenched, the more rural areas are firmly entrenched, and it's what happens in the middle.

Brian Lehrer: When we come back from a break, we don't talk about polls that much on this show, we talk about issues, but I do tell the listeners that when there's a poll or a series of polls that are really striking and indicate something really might be changing, we will cite it. I'm going to cite one when we come back, not from North Carolina, but from another state that is really jaw dropping. In fact, the pollster herself described it as jaw dropping. It might relate to what you were just saying, and that the number of people who are 'undecided' may not be the only issue in determining the outcome in states like North Carolina, and the state that will be even more surprising to most listeners, that's even in the conversation that I will mention when we come back. Brian Lehrer on WNYC.

Brian Lehrer on WNYC with our usual Monday morning politics segment to start the week as we continue to look today at the swing state of North Carolina with Rusty Jacobs, voting and election integrity reporter from public station, WUNC, in Chapel Hill. Listeners, did you watch the Emmys last night? By the way, I thought the hour of the Emmys that I saw, the first Emmys were pretty good. I don't often like the Emmys, but I thought the father and son Levy guys were really funny in their intros. Funny to see Martin Short, and Steve Martin, and Selena Gomez out there from Only Murders in the Building. They were funny. I enjoyed it in general, at least that eight to nine o'clock hour that I saw.

In that, the actor, Candice Bergen, presented one of the awards, and she reminded us that many election cycles ago, her TV character, Murphy Brown, got pregnant, and despite no ongoing relationship with the father, decided to have the baby and raise it as a single mother. That was a fictional character, remember, but it got a real life rebuke from George H W Bush's vice president, Dan Quayle. Here's Candice Bergen last night.

Candice Bergen: For 11 years, I had the tremendous privilege of playing the lead in a comedy series called Murphy Brown. I was surrounded by brilliant and funny actors, had the best scripts to work with, and in one classic moment, my character was attacked by Vice President Dan Quayle when Murphy became pregnant and decided to raise the baby as a single mother. Oh, how far we've come.

Today, a Republican candidate for vice president would never attack a woman for having kids. As they say, my work here is done. Meow.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, meow. The Republican vice presidential candidate this year is not criticizing women for having children. One of several childless cat lady jokes and other references last night, following, in fact, on Taylor Swift's endorsement of Harris last week, signing it as a childless cat lady herself.

Rusty, is that issue mattering in North Carolina, if you can tell?

Rusty Jacobs: I don't think so. Reproductive rights, certainly the issue of families, vouchers for sending kids to private school, those are the kind of paternal issue, or parental issues, rather, parental issues that are coming up in conversations with voters.

Brian Lehrer: Here's why I wonder if it is. I saw reports this morning of a really shocking result in the new poll from the respected Des Moines Register in Iowa. This is the one I was referring to before the break. We usually mention polls if they seem to indicate some big change. Not much other than that. The poster from the register was on MSNBC this morning, and said that back in June, and that usually reliably red state, they had Trump leading Biden by 18 points. That was in June. Today it's just 4 points over Harris. The pollster said, I didn't get her name, I'm sorry, but she's the pollster, and she said it was jaw dropping to her, and that the reason is that many more people started telling them that they were definitely going to vote. In other words, that category of definite or likely voters exploded in the number her even going to vote. Those people were much more likely to be women and people under 45, both groups that tend toward Harris. Maybe the childless cat lady Smear is one of the reasons.

Are you seeing anything like that in North Carolina?

Rusty Jacobs: I referred to the WRAL poll that came out recently, WRAL, one of the leading news stations here in the triangle, and it shows widening gaps for Democrats in the very important races of governor and state attorney general. In my conversation with the Democratic candidate for state attorney general, who's also current Congressman, Jeff Jackson, he said absolutely the kind of rejuvenation or maybe the resuscitation of Democratic enthusiasm for the national ticket seems to be helping him. He said there was no doubt there's an enthusiasm out there that may be a factor in the widening gap in that race. I'm not saying he was claiming victory or anything, but I asked him point blank did he think that changes at the top of the national ticket with Harris becoming the candidate, did that offer any help or any boost to his campaign? I think he sees a direct connection between the enthusiasm at the top of the ticket that is now helping down ballot races.

Brian Lehrer: Listener writes in a text message, referring back to the previous caller from Apex, North Carolina, listener writes, "To the caller's point, I have personally noticed a massive influx of people of Indian descent, which the caller referred to, over the past two to three years in Huntersville, North Carolina, which is a suburb of Charlotte. I don't presume to know their politics, but definitely true in terms of increasing population."

Rusty, how much immigration or foreign born, let's say, US citizen population? We talked about the recent influence of migrants over the last couple of years. They wouldn't be eligible for citizenship yet. How much foreign born US citizen population eligible to vote is there now, and how has that changed over time, if you know?

Rusty Jacobs: I don't know the exact figures, but clearly North Carolina has, I think, one of the highest rates of growth in the Hispanic and Latino community. There is a very active voter engagement and advocacy network of organizations, certainly in places like Raleigh and in the areas around the Triangle. There is an effort to engage people and to get them involved and to have them become registered active voters. There's no doubt that it is an issue that comes up and it's an issue that is a location of a lot of activity and engagement.

Brian Lehrer: Another listener writes, "There are plenty of Black folks in North Carolina's rural zones, but they've been disempowered. Talk about this. North Carolina should be a blue state, but for gerrymandering and other chicanery, of course gerrymandering might affect the makeup of a congressional delegation. It wouldn't affect a presidential outcome, which is just a statewide majority."

Before you respond to that, I think Stephanie in Maplewood, originally from North Carolina, is calling on a similar point. Stephanie, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Stephanie: Hi, how are you? North Carolina resident from Ashe County, been living in New Jersey for a while. My question is how to break up the gerrymander in North Carolina. It's a heavily gerrymandered state. You talked about the urban areas, but is there a way to possibly leverage Waltz to get out into some of the more rural areas of the state and try to bust up the gerrymander to the Democrats favor?

Brian Lehrer: Stephanie, thank you. Rusty, do you accept the premise from these two listeners, that were it not for gerrymandered congressional districts, if it was really proportional to the number of people around the state who vote Democrat or Republican for Congress, that it would be a more Democratic congressional delegation than it is?

Rusty Jacobs: It's hard to deny that because the previous set of maps, currently I think it's a large split, 11:3 for Republican Congress members in North Carolina. Under a set of previous maps that were ordered by the state Supreme Court, which then had a slight democratic majority, they overruled the previous set of maps from the Republican controlled state legislature as being excessively partisan, in violation of the state constitution. New set of maps came in, and it was an even split in the congressional delegation for North Carolina.

I think all of these comments raise a much more important point about access to the ballot, not only in redistricting and gerrymandering, but also in voting and election laws. Voting laws in North Carolina have undergone a lot of changes with the state legislature controlled by Republicans in ways that advocates believe is hurting, or in ways that are hurting people on the margins. Minority communities, I'm talking about not just the voter ID law, which I think in large part seems to be working well. There is a photo ID requirement now in place going back to 2023, and it seems in large part to be doing well. Data and research from people at universities in the past have shown that people in the Black and minority communities are less likely to have some of the requisite identification needed to clear that hurdle, but more importantly, things like the elimination of a three-day grace period, recounting properly postmarked absentee ballots, expanding poll observers, all these kinds of rules that people in the advocacy community see as possibly dissuading people from going out to the polls and exercising the franchise.

Brian Lehrer: What's that three-day grace period? Does that mean if a mail in ballot is postmarked by election day, then they would count it if it arrives up to three days after election day? Is that what that means?

Rusty Jacobs: It did mean that, but that has been overruled. Now the law is mail in ballots, absentee ballots have to be in by the close of polls on election day.

Brian Lehrer: One more North Carolina call. Gregory in Durham, you're on WNYC with Rusty Jacobs from your local public radio station, WUNC. Hi, Gregory.

Gregory: Hi, Brian and Rusty. A sustainer, too. I don't think you have brought up the subject of the role of evangelical pastors and folks in this neck of the woods. This is the Bible belt on the election. There are two issues that are constantly on the local religious radio station. It's abortion and gay rights. The haranguing of the pastors is unceasing. Would you please comment on that, Rusty, the role of evangelicals in this election?

Brian Lehrer: Thanks, Gregory. Yes, briefly, and has that changed at all over time?

Rusty Jacobs: The republican candidate for governor, Lieutenant Governor Mark Robinson, he's been at churches. This is where he's been recorded saying things like, calling people in the homosexual community filth, or calling homosexuality filth. He's made some of these inflammatory comments in churches. There's no doubt that this is a place, or churches are some places where some of the most inflammatory stuff is said on the political spectrum and the political landscape. It's a factor. I think people who are inclined to embrace some of those things are not likely to be moved in any way. It's a factor, but again, it's a factor in what makes North Carolina such a fixed balance of right and left with that small, small margin in the middle that could possibly make a difference.

Brian Lehrer: Last question, and this relates to what you were just saying about the rules in North Carolina. Your title is voting. An election integrity reporter at WUNC. Do you anticipate any other court battles there? There's already been this one over RFK wanting to remove his name from the ballot to help Trump. That effort was successful, but it delayed the start of voting there. Any other battles coming over how the voting takes place, or how the votes are counted in north?

Is North Carolina one of the states we should be watching starting on election night for disputes over who won or whose vote should count?

Rusty Jacobs: You should always keep an eye out for North Carolina. Absolutely. I'll point out that Republicans in the state legislature have just filed a lawsuit. This has to do with the approval of a digital ID for UNC Chapel Hill students. One of the acceptable IDs, if a university or college has their physical identification card approved by the State Board of Elections, it could be used as a form of photo ID at the polls. UNC Chapel Hill also asked the State Board of Elections to approve the use of its Digital OneCard. It's the phone version or the mobile device version of their identification card. The Democratic majority on the five-member state board said, look, it's just like a credit card on a phone. It is essentially a card. They approved that for use at the polls, but the state legislators, the Republicans in control of the state legislature are suing to say that, no, the law requires a physical identification. That's one of the next battlefronts in this ongoing war.

Brian Lehrer: That's to try to get fewer college students to vote, is what I think I hear you saying, or to be able to vote. We know how college students tend to vote today.

Rusty Jacobs: That's correct. I'm not going to assign that motivation to the people behind the lawsuit. I think they're trying to say that the courts and elections officials should follow the law. I think that reading into it that way certainly is not a shot too far.

Brian Lehrer: Rusty Jacobs is the voting and election integrity reporter at WUNC, the public radio station. UNC stands for University of North Carolina in the Raleigh Durham Chapel Hill area. Thank you so much for giving us so much time today and informing voters elsewhere what's going on in the swing state. I'm still calling it a swing state of North Carolina. Thank you very, very much.

Rusty Jacobs: You're welcome.

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