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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Last week, as Mayor Adams celebrated the opening of the Bridge to Home, a new facility to help unhoused people with severe mental illness transition into what's called supportive housing, City Council passed a law to try and address a problem with supportive housing. That's housing plus supportive services. Here's the shocking breakout stat. There are 5,000 empty supportive housing units, even at a time of what is believed to be a severe shortage, and, of course, plenty of demand. To talk about this disconnect between supply and demand, we're joined once again by David Brand, housing reporter for WNYC and Gothamist. Hey, David.

David Brand: Hey, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Let's start with a more robust definition of supportive housing and how it differs from, let's say, a shelter. How do you explain what it is?

David Brand: Sure. Supportive housing is a really, really important tool to helping New York City and other places around the state and the area address homelessness. There's 40,000 or so units of supportive housing in New York City. More than half of those are in congregate sites. They're buildings with apartments specifically for people who have experienced homelessness with mental illness, with HIV/AIDS diagnoses, young people who have aged out of foster care, and other people with certain special needs.

They live in the building, and then there are on-site social services, so case managers who help them with benefits, and maybe finding jobs and other things that they need to work on. There is counseling, psychiatric help, recreation programs. Then there are about 16,000 or so what they call scattered-site units. These are units that are leased by nonprofit providers who then house people experiencing homelessness or people with other special needs in those units. Then they visit them, doing the same thing and offering the same kinds of services, case management, counseling.

It's a really important tool because so many people in New York City who are experiencing homelessness are people with mental illness and people with special needs. The premise of the law or the legislation that the council just passed, and my reporting on it, is that it's not being fully utilized because there is about a 12% or 13% vacancy rate right now.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. These 5,000-some-odd units that are sitting empty. Let's break that down a bit. How many are there in total? 5,000 out of what?

David Brand: About 40,000. A little more than 40,000. At a City Council hearing back in June, one of the administrators from the Department of Social Services gave a more specific breakdown. He said about 900 of those units have a tenant connected with them. That could be someone who's moving in from a city shelter or who's referred by a community program or maybe from a hospital and will eventually be moving into those units. Then about 2,000 or so are closed because of severe renovation or repair needs. They're just being held offline because of that. They can't house anybody.

Brian Lehrer: Does research suggest that supportive housing units are effective? Some listeners might think, hey, we've been talking about supportive housing units for decades, but there's still a lot of homelessness on the street.

David Brand: Yes, we have been talking about it for decades, and I think that's because it is effective. There are still a lot of people who are homeless on the streets. That's probably because we don't have enough supportive housing and just enough affordable housing overall. For people who enter supportive housing, the homelessness recidivism rate, so the rate of people becoming homeless again, is relatively low. People are evicted from these units, which can increase that rate.

People do move out into other forms of permanent housing. Maybe they don't quite need ongoing supports. Then, some people, I think there's a small number of people who probably do just opt to leave. For the most part, the rate of people becoming homeless once again is relatively low. It is an effective way for people to have stable housing with a lot of supports that they need.

Brian Lehrer: Is there a long waiting list for supportive housing units?

David Brand: There is. I'm not sure what it is offhand, but there is a long waiting list. There are some bureaucratic obstacles that can prolong move-ins and providers getting someone referred to them. Then the providers have leeway to deny someone who's referred to them by the city social services agency, which that's a controversial issue too, because people who need this level of care that a supportive housing site provides, and they can't get it, there's a waiting list. There's bureaucratic delays on the government side, and then also at times on the provider side as well.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, you can help us report this story. Has anybody ever lived in supportive housing? Tell us how it helped you or what could make it better? Is anybody living in supportive housing right now? Is anybody on a waiting list for supportive housing, or is anybody you know? Maybe you work in the field and you have some insights into the issues with vacancies and shortages. Call or text us at 212-433-WNYC with our housing reporter, David Brand, 212-433-9692. Who owns the supportive housing? The roughly 40,000 units, though there are about 5,000 vacancies, they say. Who owns these tens of thousands of units? Are they private landlords, largely? Are they the city? Who are the landlords?

David Brand: Let's take the congregate sites, so these single sites. These are buildings that are designed for people leaving homeless shelters or people with mental illness or substance use issues. Those are typically owned by nonprofit providers who own the building and then also provide the services. They employ the case managers, the supervisors, the counselors, maybe even the security that are on staff.

Again, more than half of the total supportive housing units in New York City, like 24,000, 25,000, are these congregate sites that are mostly owned and operated by nonprofit providers. Then there's that 16,000 or so supportive housing units that are included in this total that are units in privately owned buildings. Private landlords and then nonprofit providers will lease the units from them. Problem there is that a lot of the funding for those programs is very low, especially when it comes to funding from the state's Office of Mental Health.

It's a challenge finding good apartments. A lot of times, the nonprofit providers are leasing apartments from some of the most notorious landlords in New York City, and that there are a lot of problems there. Then they're demanding that the state and city focus more on the congregate supportive housing, which is this model where everyone's living together with the services on site, and trying to direct more of the funding to that type of program.

Brian Lehrer: Who pays the rent? Presumably, if we're talking about unhoused or recently unhoused people, they don't have a lot of money.

David Brand: Most of the congregate site units have Section 8 attached to them. It's called Project-Based Section 8. People qualify for the units based on their income as well as whatever is the agency that's funding the services, and perhaps some of the rent as, whether that's the Office of Mental Health, so people would have to have a diagnosed mental illness. Could be the HASA, which is the HIV/AIDS Service Administration. People would have HIV/AIDS and also meet the income eligibility.

If people have Section 8, they are still paying 30% of their income toward rent. You mentioned before a call out to listeners who have worked in supportive housing, live in supportive housing. Prior to my career in journalism, I worked in supportive housing. I was a case manager and counselor, and so everyone there had Section 8 to pay their rent. There were some people who had decent incomes and most of the rent they paid out of pocket, and then many others that was being paid by primarily Section 8 and maybe the city's cash assistance and shelter allowance. It was a mix.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a caller who works in supportive housing in New Jersey. Boom in Lakewood. You're on WNYC. Hi there, thanks for calling in.

Boom: Hi, good morning. Yes, I've been working in supportive housing for like 25-plus years in Jersey, about an hour away from you guys. A lot of times, we don't just get referrals of homeless people. We get referrals that come from psychiatric institutions and/or prisons of psychiatric patients that are being discharged in the community. A lot of times, when you get people in the mainstream population, it's not as hard. It's a poverty-related issue and, obviously, our government's not going to change that, so to speak.

When you're dealing with this other thing, you're dealing with people with co-concurrent problems-- co-occurring. Excuse me. You may have somebody who comes in who may be homeless, but he's also experiencing, going through substance use, and it could be current. You may have someone you're dealing with cold turkey. What I'm basically trying to say is it's not an easy fit. The housing ideal is awesome, but it doesn't replace our problem, and our problem is socio-economics. It's like our government has to come in and work hand in hand with the community and sit down with folks who know what the problems are and come up with a resolution because it comes down to, once again, affordable housing.

A lot of people that do come to supportive housing or income-eligible apartments also because it's another thing, income-eligible apartments, but that's not [unintelligible 00:10:07] supportive housing. I sound a little hyper is because I was walking and I just got out of work at supportive housing, so I'm at a park now.

Brian Lehrer: I love it--

Boom: Brian, I've tried to get through your show before because I have information for you. I tried to get to you and WBLS because Section 8 or HUD has a home ownership program. Anybody who has had Section 8 for one year or more besides being able to move anywhere else to the country, they can go through the home ownership program and purchase a home. Section 8 goes towards that payment. I've been trying to get through for six months to bring that information. Waiting and waiting and waiting.

Brian Lehrer: If you want, I'll put you on hold. I'm going to give our screener, our poor screener who doesn't know this is coming, an assignment to jot down a few notes from you and who they might follow up with if we want to do a segment. Boom, thank you for your call on this. We're putting you on hold. Screener, take note. Take a note from Boom in Lakewood there. David Brand, any thoughts on Boom's call? Based on his experience, what's missing that government isn't providing that would make supportive housing even more successful for its residents?

David Brand: I think Boom made a great point about the lack of affordable housing overall. People who might not necessarily need such a ongoing support to live independently end up in supportive housing because so many people-- If you're living in a homeless shelter for economic reasons, you can't afford rent on the market, might apply for a place in supportive housing. Maybe you do have a diagnosed mental illness that would qualify you or some other special need, but doesn't necessarily mean you need someone giving you case management and counseling every day.

Some people end up in supportive housing because it's the option that they qualified for and that they had the greatest opportunity, and because it's subsidized. What they probably need is just more traditional, affordable housing that they can afford. The reason that they're homeless or in shelter is not because of mental illness or substance use. It's because they just can't afford the market rents. I thought that was an important point he made.

Brian Lehrer: With our housing reporter, David Brand, on the revelation that there are 5,000 or so supportive housing units sitting vacant in New York City despite so many people who need not just housing, but various social services supports who could use those units. A new piece of City Council legislation that's relevant to that. What would the City Council legislation do, David?

David Brand: It would require the city to publicly report the number of vacancies and the reason for each vacancy each quarter. The city says they welcome this legislation. They say they already do report when asked. At City Council hearings or in response to FOIL requests, Freedom of Information Law requests, they'll share this information, but this would require them to compile it quarterly on a online dashboard.

They also point out, though, that this isn't just an issue with the city's Department of Homeless Services and Department of Social Services, that more than half of those vacant units are apartments that are funded by the state and state agencies. There's a patchwork of agencies here on the state side and on the local side, and they also receive federal funding as well. That it's not just a city issue, this is also a problem on the state side.

Brian Lehrer: Here are some critical texts that are coming in about supportive housing. One listener writes, "I live in what I later found out is a supportive housing development. I originally thought I was applying to a rent-stabilized apartment building. Unfortunately, the support offered here doesn't seem to actually help the people who need it." That's one person's impression, and that's all they said about it.

Another one writes, "Former supportive housing director here. The vacancy issue became a major problem during COVID due to a slowdown in all areas. Additionally, the city has been very slow to pay out contracts. They also implemented a policy that housing providers have almost no ability to satisfy a client if not a good fit for a residence, which has led people with significant mental health needs being improperly housed." I'm not sure I understand all of that, but does any of that ring a bell with the kinds of things you've reported on or even experienced when you worked in the field?

David Brand: I think the vacancy problem becoming a bigger issue during COVID does sound definitely true. I know the Supportive Housing Network of New York, which is a trade group for the nonprofit providers that run these supportive housing sites, started sounding the alarm on that back in 2021, early 2022, right at the beginning of the Adams administration, is when this issue started percolating, and it's still an issue nearly four years later.

The part about the appropriate level of care, I guess, for people that are moving into supportive housing, it sounds like that's the issue. I think one of the problems is that supportive housing is probably the most attainable supportive environment that anyone with mental illness or substance use issues who's leaving homelessness is going to get. There's not really many options like that are going to provide more supports than supportive housing offers. It has to be the type of housing that people with the highest level of need move into, because it's really all that there is.

Brian Lehrer: Maya in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Maya.

Maya: Hi. I want to make a quick comment about-- I recently went through the 3-1-1 process of trying to find some help or more information for a neighbor who was evicted for mental health reasons. It's very clear that it's not going well. It's been a couple of months, a process of seeing this happen. I called-- They referred me to the HRA and Adult Protective Services, and the case was rejected immediately because unhoused people aren't considered part of the community by the HRA. That was very surprising to me. I asked the--

Brian Lehrer: That's the city's Human Resources Administration, which deals with welfare programs and things like that. Go ahead.

Maya: I asked the APS person on the phone why. She just told me it's a policy. I told her, okay, if they changed the policy, would she be considered a member of the community? She said, yes. This, I think, just needs more light on it.

Brian Lehrer: Where's your neighbor or former neighbor now, do you know?

Maya: In the park by my house. She sleeps in front of the vacant commercial space in front of my building at night when she has to leave the park because it closes.

Brian Lehrer: It's such a sad story. David, any advice for Maya based on what you can tell?

David Brand: Yes, that's a tough situation. Getting into supportive housing can be very complicated. It's not as simple as someone's homeless on the streets, and a nonprofit provider says, "Oh, here's keys to this unit." There's a lot of eligibility requirements. I think it is possible that someone can move from the streets to supportive housing, though it's very rare. The process of doing that, they need to complete their application packet and get psychiatric evaluation, improve their income eligible. There are a lot of administrative hurdles that would prevent that.

Yes, if your neighbor could get connected with outreach workers or providers who could get that ball rolling, that sounds like it could potentially help. I think it's complicated. Very few people, I think, actually go from the streets to supportive housing.

Maya: Yes, I think it's more of a severe mental illness situation where she's unable to care for herself long term. Yes. I don't know if she could make those steps.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. That's a catch-22, right? If it takes all that bureaucracy that you were just referring to, David, for people who don't have the mental health to go through all those details, that's a big catch-22. It sounds like it.

David Brand: It sounds like it. Yes. I guess it would take some really diligent outreach work by trained professionals at the organizations that are doing that to figure out what the next steps could be. There's nothing easy there.

Brian Lehrer: Maya, I hope that's somewhat helpful for you and your neighbor. I hope it's at least a little glimmer of something you can do there. Based on your reporting, David, there seems to be a lot of frustration over the amount of time and effort required to apply for these units. Right?

David Brand: Yes. In what Council Member Lincoln Restler said and what has-- He's the person who introduced that legislation to publicly track these apartments. A number of people say, there's 5,000 units of supportive housing. The most recent point in time count of street homeless New Yorkers found there were about 4,500 people living in public spaces in January. Why not move all of those people into those units? It sounds like a good idea. Then there are a lot of people living in city shelters or people who are aging out of foster care and need additional support, or people leaving jail or prison who would qualify for the unit.

It's not as easy as just moving people from the street to supportive housing, though, they could make it a lot easier for people who are on the street to move to supportive housing. The city did this pilot program a couple years ago that I reported on where they were doing that for the first time in a long time of allowing people to bypass a traditional shelter system to move into supportive housing through what they call the housing-- a true Housing First model. Even then, they still had to have a temporary stay in a more of a low barrier city shelter. Again, not as easy as giving people keys and just saying, "You're homeless, you need support, here, move into this apartment and we can begin that work."

Brian Lehrer: You mentioned Housing First policies, even though we're talking about a city issue, a City Council bill, and an issue that Mayor Adams has said is a priority as well. You also wrote about President Trump's executive order to end support for what are called Housing First policies, which overlap with supportive housing. Maybe explain that a bit and tell us if the executive order from Washington is complicating the situation at all in New York.

David Brand: Sure. Housing First is this model for getting people into housing that was actually pioneered in New York City at a time when there were many more vacant apartments. You could do that. You could say you need support, you need services. The most important thing you need is housing. Let's get you that housing. Then after that, you can have some stability, and you could begin working on other phases of your life.

It's really morphed into the idea that people can still have substance use issues or mental illness that maybe they're not taking medication for or going to a psychiatrist weekly to manage, but that with those issues, they can still get into housing. Though, again, there's a lot of obstacles and bureaucracy to that. What the Trump administration and a lot of conservatives are saying now after there was seemingly bipartisan agreement that that was a really effective strategy. The biggest issue is you just need stability. Here's your stability in an apartment. Then you could work on some of the other issues while you're housed.

Now they're saying, no, people need to go into treatment or they need to show that they are sober to get support, to earn the right to housing. That's making a lot of organizations here in New York City nervous because a lot of their funding is based on the Housing First model, that people don't need to be sober to move into apartments. I've been talking with some administrators at nonprofit agencies that are providing supportive housing who say, like, "We're not sure how this is going to affect our funding. If they're going to say, 'Oh, you have people living in your building who aren't testing negative for substances,' that's going to affect your funding."

Brian Lehrer: There is also this controversy going on right now-- For those of you who don't know about this, and I'm curious if this is connected at all to what you've been reporting on, including Trump's executive order on Housing First policies or against them. Many of you who are on social media a lot probably know that Fox News host Brian Kilmeade said something about lethal injections for mentally ill homeless people, believe it or not, on one of his segments, and has since apologized for it. Do you want to explain? I know you've looked at this, David, what exactly did he say and apologize for? Is it related to the issue of Trump's executive order?

David Brand: On Fox & Friends, on Fox News, they were talking about people with mental illness living on the streets. I think in reference to a very high-profile attack on a bus in Baltimore, where a person with mental illness stabbed a woman on the bus. In that conversation, he said that they should involuntarily euthanize or lethally inject people with mental illness living on the streets, basically kill people with mental illness. He did apologize. I guess that was a bridge too far.

I think how it relates to the policy of Housing First and these executive orders saying that funding needs to go to programs that are treatment-based or sobriety-based. It just shows the shift to intolerance, cruelty to people who are living on the street, to people with severe mental illness. After a period where it was-- I think, and I think a lot of people thought there was this support for these ideas that what people need is supports. Then, when they have those supports, then they can improve and get better in other parts of their life. Now it's shifted back to this idea of sweep people away, force them to get sober, to earn housing, and a Pollyannaish idea that people are just going to get better without the support that they need and the housing that they need.

Brian Lehrer: He did apologize, as I said, but even the fact that here we are talking about the idea of what you might call preventive execution being in the public conversation at all, I guess, has a lot about the times we're living in. We leave it there with David Brand, housing reporter for WNYC and Gothamist. Thanks, David.

David Brand: Thanks, Brian.

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