[MUSIC]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, and yet to end the show today, we'll shift gears and do a little sports talk, primarily about two stories linked by the two All-Star Games this week. First up, and this is fairly serious because it has to do with injury, Caitlin Clark and the WNBA now in their All-Star break before Saturday night's game. Clark was to have captained one of the teams and participated in the three-point shot contest, but she's had to bow out due to injury.

Then we'll talk briefly about a controversial development from Major League Baseball's All-Star game on Tuesday night when robo-umps got involved in calling balls and strikes. To take us through these stories, I'm joined by Barbara Barker, sports columnist and feature writer at Newsday. Hey, Barbara, welcome back to the show. Great to have you.

Barbara Barker: Hey, Brian, great to talk to you again.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we don't have much time for this, but if anybody wants to weigh in on either of these two reffing or umpiring controversies, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text. Let's talk about the reffing in the WNBA first. This is the more serious question, and whether it's too lax, and it contributed to Caitlin Clark's injury. What do you see?

Barbara Barker: I think it definitely did. Her coach definitely thinks it did. Just to let your listeners know, this was going to be an unbelievably important week for the WNBA because she was twice playing the defending champion Liberty in New York, where there's a lot of media. Then there was the All-Star Game, which is being hosted by her team in Indiana this weekend. She got injured the game before the Liberty game.

She's such a draw. They had to move her game from Connecticut to the TD Garden in Boston because they had so many people that wanted to see it. She got injured. I think it was end of third quarter, beginning of the fourth. It's what's called a non-contact injury. It's a groin injury. She's had a couple of them this year. Her coach blames it on, and I think there's a lot to be said of this, the officiating.

Here's a great sports word, the physicality, the level of physicality. Sports people love to use that word that is being played. It just means how tough people are defending you. People don't realize that basketball really is a contact sport. I see it in the players. They have bruises and the way the women's game has become so physical lately. It always has been physical. I don't think the officials have caught up to it.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, you wrote about all the injuries she's had this season, multiple injuries to Caitlin Clark, after not missing a game in her whole college career. You quote her brother tweeting, "It's the reffing." Is it different than in the NBA? Because I don't feel like we've heard this about the men's game.

Barbara Barker: Well, everybody complains about officiating. That's part of sports, right? The men's game is physical. They've changed over the years. The league can actually not lean on officials, but let it known how they want things to go. Actually, the league is a lot more physical this past year than it has been, and they are letting things go this year because I think the NBA, things got so finesse with three pointers and high scores. They want to see a little bit more physicality going on.

The league can talk about it to officials or talk about it publicly and get that message out. I think that's what they're lobbying in the WNBA, but to go the other way, "Let's make some more calls." You do hear players complain, and there's ebbs and flows. In the NBA, you don't hear it as much. The other thing is in the NBA, they play more games. The players actually have, I think-- I don't have proof of this, but they know the officials better. There's more of a relationship. All the players really know, unless you're a rookie, know the officials pretty well because they've played in front of them over and over again. I think there's less of that relationship that goes on in the WNBA.

Brian Lehrer: Caitlin Clark's coach, I see, attributed the injuries to "the physicality" that she's experiencing for 40 minutes. Is she drawing harder fouls than other players? Maybe just because she's so good, and it's so central to their game to try to neutralize her?

Barbara Barker: Well, I think if she's drawing harder fouls, she's probably drawing more that don't get called. It's just she's such a talented player. Some people think she's being targeted. I don't think that's the case. I spoke with Ryan Ruocco, who does play-by-play for ESPN, and he thinks so, too. It's that she's so talented that you have to cover her like this. You're putting not only your best defender on her, but number two and number three, and she's under constant pressure. You cannot leave her. Really, her first year, it wasn't as much the same because she really proved herself to be a great player last year.

People have gotten to know her style of play. Now, she's just trying all kinds of defenders. At a certain point, you got to get treated. In the NBA, you can treat it as a star player. Star players get better calls and not star players. They protect their own. That's where basketball's maybe different than some other sports. I think they have to make more calls. They're going to hurt their product, not just her. There's been a blogger, one that's pretty good. There's been 141 different injuries since opening day in the WNBA. There's 179 active players in the league.

[crosstalk]

Barbara Barker: We're talking minor. I don't think it's 141. That can count Caitlin Clark's five injuries, so it's not just that many players. I think they need to call things a little tighter.

Brian Lehrer: How much do you think the increase in fans in person, the higher TV ratings for the WNBA, can be credited to Caitlin Clark individually, because she's such a superstar? I think it was starting to go up anyway. I've also seen her described as both underappreciated and overhyped.

Barbara Barker: I don't think she's underappreciated. I don't. I think she's appreciated, all right? I think people realize she is a great player. Even people that don't really like the whole Caitlin Clark effect, even people that have problems, nobody argues that she's a great player, all right? Has she been overhyped? I think it's really complicated, Brian, because it's a clash of her fans, and the people that followed her from college basketball are really different type of person, but they have different interests than the people who are traditional WNBA fans.

It mirrors the culture clashes in society at large. It's a very interesting story. This is a league that was long ignored by the general public and built its own fanship up on it by primarily women of color and also primarily-- or not primarily, but many who identify as gay. You go to a Liberty game. For a long time, it's like a celebration of inclusivity and all kinds of stuff. Her fans are not exactly the same group. I'm not saying they're not inclusive, but a lot of them come from the college game. It's just a different group of fans.

Brian Lehrer: More white, more straight.

Barbara Barker: Yes, I would say that. [chuckles] Not all. I'm a big fan of hers. Well, I am white and straight, but I'm a big fan of hers. I'm also a big fan of the WNBA. It's a different group of people. Not necessarily, but most of-- and also, the way women's sports are covered, they're covered sometimes as-- Unlike men, it's like a cat fight where women are competing against each other. Your last segment really led to some discussions. In the world of sports, this is a very big discussion and constantly written about.

Brian Lehrer: We have about a minute and a half for the other topic, more minor, but Major League Baseball included the Automated Ball-Strike System in its All-Star Game Tuesday night. A few opportunities to challenge a ball or strike call, which doesn't exist in the game because they can be detected electronically now. Where this could go eventually is no more home plate umpire. I guess the debate is, do you want to exclude the human element because the cameras can just get it more right? I have at least one text from a listener who says, "I want there to be a place for human umpires in the game. It's okay if they get it wrong sometimes." What's the debate in the game?

Barbara Barker: Well, actually, overall, in sports is this is happening in all sports. The US Open, you don't have John McEnroe explosions anymore because they go purely by their electronic--

Brian Lehrer: I don't hear a lot of complaints about that, by the way, right? Those cameras, the lines--

Barbara Barker: The players don't complain about it. Baseball is more traditionalist. I think this is a good compromise, in that you have these challenges. I think it's interesting, the challenges, but you're not going to depend on it all the time. The challenge, I thought, makes things interesting because people are saying, "You take out the human element," but not with the challenges because you're leaving it on three people to decide whether to use that challenge. If they use it, lose it, and waste it, then they only have one more. When do you use it? I don't know. I think baseball, which really had some problems years ago, some of their innovations I find pretty interesting. I'm not sure what I think about the swing-off being used.

Brian Lehrer: That'll be for another day. The way to resolve extra innings that they experimented with at the All-Star Game, a home run derby swing-off instead of another inning of play. Barbara Barker, sports columnist at Newsday, thank you so much.

Barbara Barker: Thanks, Brian. That was great. Thanks.

Copyright © 2025 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.