Kousha Navidar: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Kousha Navidar. I'm filling in for Brian today. If you're a dedicated listener, you may recognize my voice from guest-hosting shows at WNYC like The Brian Lehrer Show and All of It with Alison Stewart. For those of you who are like, "Who is this guy?" when I'm not hosting here, I'm hosting another public radio show called Climate One. It's all about what's happening in the world of climate change. You can hear it on other public radio stations and the NPR app.

As luck would have it, every Tuesday, The Brian Lehrer Show does a segment on climate and health, so today I'm especially happy to be here. In fact, I recently had a conversation on Climate One that might interest folks in Brooklyn. As you may know, it's getting more expensive to keep the lights on. New York State recently approved an increase in electricity rates for Con Ed customers at the tune of 9%. In Sunset Park, New York City's first community-led solar project is underway. It's called Sunset Park Solar. If you like biking around the water in Sunset Park like me, you may have actually seen it. It's a bunch of solar panels installed on the roof of the Brooklyn Army Terminal.

The idea is to give renters, homeowners, and small businesses in the neighborhood access to solar energy, even if they don't have the roof access or building ownership to install solar panels themselves. It's kind of like solar power to the people, you know what I'm saying? The project is one way communities are trying to innovate on energy. The project has been spearheaded by the group UPROSE. Here to tell us more about it is the executive director of UPROSE, Elizabeth Yeampierre. Hi, Elizabeth. It's nice to talk again.

Elizabeth Yeampierre: It's wonderful to be here with you. I'm so excited to have an opportunity to share what communities are leading on when it comes to renewable energy and economic justice. Thank you.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, thank you. I'm so excited. I'm especially excited if there is anyone in Sunset Park listening right now that might have experience with this program. We'd love to hear from you. Let me give a call out to listeners. Is anyone out there interested in solar energy for their home or business? Do you have questions about a community-led solar energy program? Like I said, if you're listening and you're from Sunset Park, please call in. Have you signed up for the program? Why? Even if you're not from Sunset Park, we'd love to hear how the increase in energy rates generally might have affected you. Call us, text us. We're at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692.

Okay, Elizabeth, let's dive into this. I want to start with the problem here. What's the problem that a project like Sunset Park Solar is trying to fix when it comes to energy access? Lay that out for us.

Elizabeth Yeampierre: This has been a project that has taken over eight years. The expense, the length of time trying to operationalize a community-led solar, something that requires a different kind of governance that moves money into people's pockets, and then creates an investment fund to address climate adaptation strategies, that's different. People are interested in solar, but they never really think about how you create community wealth. For us, we're dealing with political disruption, climate disruption, economic disruption. Literally the ground is shifting, and so solutions that address climate change really need to be able to address the needs of frontline communities.

This initiative took a long time. We were learning as we went along. Right now what we have is a 720-kilowatt system that took more than eight years and literally is like right now 90% subscribed, and it's going to pass on a savings of 20% to 25% into people's pockets. You know that during this time, we were also dealing with the federal uncertainty as tax credits made projects like this not viable, so we were faced with those challenges. There are many, but we are relentless, and we are solution oriented. I think that this project is an example of what happens when a community is able to manifest a vision and get the support to make that happen.

There are lots of challenges, and I'm hoping that this also becomes a model that is replicable all over the city. We're happy to share that information.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, a lot of problems. I heard two pop up generally. One is access to renewable energy, as you said. How do I get solar energy if I'm interested? The climate aspect. Then the second one, which really stuck out to me, is, I guess I would say economic empowerment for communities. Is that a fair way of describing it?

Elizabeth Yeampierre: It is. Remember, it checks a lot of boxes. We're talking about communities that have been living with a legacy of toxic exposure. Renewable energy not only provides you with access to an alternative to fossil fuel, but it also reduces emissions. It has a public health benefit. Then if it's community-owned and the investment is put back into community, we're talking about economic justice, we're talking about the opportunity to save money from your bill, but also have access to a fund that will invest in other kinds of climate-related problems that are heading our way.

It checks so many different boxes. I think that folks think about solar without thinking about the creation of wealth, of community wealth, at a time when things are really, really challenging.

Kousha Navidar: You mentioned 720 kilowatts in the system. Can you help me understand that? I don't know, how many TVs is that? That's the first thing that popped into my head. I don't know of TVs. This is a good way to talk about it. That's a [unintelligible 00:06:09] wastage of time. How much Energy is that?

Elizabeth Yeampierre: It's 725 kilowatts. That is going to serve 200 families and small businesses. I can't tell you how many TVs, but I could tell you how many families. It's substantial. It's a small array compared to what is possible. We have been looking and mapping rooftops all over Sunset Park, including the rooftop on the MTA building, the Jackie Gleason Bus Depot. If we were able to get access to that rooftop, that would serve a thousand families, right? This one was created so that we could learn how do we do this and how do we make this a thing for our rooftops, particularly those that are underutilized, space that is just there.

It's just real estate that's sitting there and can serve the purpose of benefiting working-class families in Sunset Park. So yes, 200 families and small businesses, but I don't know, I mean, I've got a lot of gadgets. I can't tell you how many it would support.

Kousha Navidar: If we have any electric engineers out there that want to call in and give us the math, we'll be open to that. Text us. Let's talk about Sunset Park for a second. What made Sunset Park the right community to launch this initiative?

Elizabeth Yeampierre: Well, first, UPROSE started working on Environmental justice in 1996. This year, UPROSE turned 60 years old. It's the oldest Latino community-based organization in Brooklyn. We started working on environmental justice because that's what the community wanted us to do. Then around 2003, we pivoted towards climate justice, which is sort of like a look forward. How do you take the industrial waterfront and the resources and have them be the vehicle to a green economy? That happened literally in response to the community's demand right after Superstorm Sandy.

The community was concerned about what was going to happen in the future, whether they would have renewable energy, drinkable water, food, sovereignty, wellness. They asked UPROSE to start working on initiatives that would be community-wide and would have an impact. This is a frontline, predominantly immigrant community that has two or three jobs and is taking care of two or three children. The idea of community solar really comes out of the community when they start talking about access to renewable energy. This is really a community-dreamed solution. UPROSE is here to staff the community.

We started working and bringing in partners like Working Power to start figuring out how do we make this happen. Then we reached out to the New York City Economic Development Corporation because they've got those rooftops. We've got the largest significant maritime industrial area in New York City. We knew that those rooftops weren't being used for anything. We thought they could serve the financial, health needs and energy needs of our community. It made sense. There aren't SMIAs everywhere in New York City, but Sunset Park is home to the largest one.

It's also an industrial waterfront community. For a lot of different reasons, it was ideal that this community could be leading the way on something like that.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, if you're just joining us, this is The Brian Lehrer Show. We are talking to the executive director of UPROSE, Elisabeth Yeampierre, about Sunset Park Solar. It is a community-led solar energy program. Listeners, do you have questions about what a community-led solar energy program is? Or if you are from Sunset Park and you have signed up for this program, I'd love to hear why. Or maybe you are interested in signing up for the program. I'd love to hear why.

Generally, for listeners, we know that it's getting more expensive to keep the lights on. I want to know how the increase in energy rates are generally affecting you. Give us a call or send us a text. We're at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692.

I'm so happy. We have a caller from Sunset Park. Tamara, did I pronounce that correctly?

Tamara: Yes, that's me.

Kousha Navidar: Wonderful. Hi, welcome to the show.

Tamara: Hi. Thanks. Actually, I used to be a neighbor of UPROSE. They were across 4th Avenue from me on 22nd Street. I actually signed up for this program, but I don't know what happened. I tried emailing a few times, and then just like was busy and lost touch, but I'd really like to do it. I have a small wood-frame house on 22nd Street. I'd love to get information about how to join. I'm a member of the Park Slope Food Coop, and I thought, "Perfect." The solar coop sounds better than trying to own my own." I'd love any inform-- I did try to sign up, but it never happened.

Kousha Navidar: Tamara, I'm so happy that you brought that up. Thank you so much. Elizabeth, I think a lot of folks like Tamara might be wondering where to get information. I think generally it would be interesting to hear just what is the status of the program? You mentioned how many people signed up. What has the demand been like?

Elizabeth Yeampierre: We literally have a waiting list, and we will go live literally in a few weeks. I think to respond to her question, we moved to 36th Street. COVID happened. We were slowed down substantially, not just because of COVID but because of challenges we had navigating a way through a democracy like the New York City Economic Development Corporation. I would suggest that you contact us at info@uprose.org and send your request to the attention of Ahmad. That's all you have to do is write Ahmad at info@uprose.org. I don't know whether there are any openings, but I know that there is a substantial wait list.

I know that right now, as we're speaking, it's at 90% capacity. There may be a possibility, but they may just be onboarding folks that are on the wait list, so please get in touch. We're on 36th street, by the way. If you want to come over here, we're on 36 between 5th and 4th. Thank you so much for your interest. We loved being on 22nd street, but our capacity and our members have grown substantially. We needed--

Kousha Navidar: Tamara, thank you-- I'm sorry. Go ahead.

Elizabeth Yeampierre: No, no, I'm just saying we needed more space, and we moved.

Kousha Navidar: Tamara, thank you so much for that question. I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate knowing where to go to find more information. Elizabeth, you had mentioned needing to work with the city pretty closely to get this project approved. Can you tell me about that process? How helpful was the city?

Elizabeth Yeampierre: I think that there was a moment where the New York City Economic Development Corporation was talking about the circular economy. We were working with them closely to figure out how we can turn the industrial area into this initiative called the GRID, which is this overlay that comes from 10 years of community-based planning and would turn the industrial waterfront into a green reindustrialization. A place where we would have green manufacturing and would be able to hire people locally. Among the recommendations was this initiative, which is Sunset Park Solar. There are quite a few.

That was challenging. It was challenging, I think, because they have very little history of working with grassroots organizations like ours, and also because the terms of the agreements kept changing over the years. In the beginning, we were told that we would be able to have that rooftop rent-free. Then, as we got closer to finalizing it, we found out that we would have to pay rent for the use of a rooftop that was not really dedicated to anything other than being a rooftop. Between our lawyers and their lawyers, it took a long time, and it was really challenging.

I'm hoping that moving forward that there's reform at the EDC. I'm hoping that they work closely with communities to operationalize community-led visions, because literally our communities not only have operational visions that are practical, equitable, and enduring, but are really about economic development. Are about making sure that there's a place where we could work and a place that is not literally killing us from toxic exposure. The solar panels are an example of that, of how we're thinking sort of out of the box about how to use underutilized space to serve a multiplicity of community needs.

I think EDC needs to stop using public space for private uses, stop following the market and start creating the market, and understand that we're the ones who made it possible for something like offshore wind to come into Sunset Park. We are very much about how do we bring in infrastructure that is addressing climate adaptation and mitigation and future climate disruption needs, while not disrupting an economy that needs to be sustainable over time. We're very practical, we're working class people. I'm really hoping that instead of managing community expectations, that they work with us as partners so that we can do more of this.

UPROSE, for example, has a different definition of what innovation is. When they think innovation, they think incubators, they think businesses like AI, and we think community-owned solar. We think food sovereignty. We think water systems that make it possible for people not to worry about that 10 years from now or 20 years from now.

Kousha Navidar: Let's get into the nitty-gritty of it a little bit. We were getting a couple of questions here asking to just break down how solar power is actually shared in the Sunset Park community. What is it that actually happens with the energy collected by the solar panels, and then how do folks get that 20% to 25% savings that you mentioned?

Elizabeth Yeampierre: It literally is connected to the grid, and then that energy is dispersed. Literally, the energy power goes into the grid. That is the way that it is set up right now, technically. Then what we're doing is really trying to make sure that people have access to renewable energy as a step away. We call it a just transition, a step away from the extractive economy towards the regenerative economy. People, in their bill, will be able to see a 20% reduction in their bill. Then I believe that months from now, like probably by next year, there's an additional 5% percent that kicks in. It may be up to 25% in a reduction in their bill.

They will see that when they receive their bill. You know when you get your bill, it has all of this information? It's pretty confusing and overwhelming. It's so overwhelming, you're like-

Kousha Navidar: Yes, it can be.

Elizabeth Yeampierre: -what is this that I'm paying for?

Kousha Navidar: Sure.

Elizabeth Yeampierre: They should see an immediate drop of 20%. You could see that, and you could feel that. You will feel that in your pocket every month, and it adds. I think that they will see that in their bill.

Kousha Navidar: Tell me a little bit about how replicable this is in other communities. I mean, what's the bottleneck? What's stopping us from using this for a lot of different communities?

Elizabeth Yeampierre: What we often say at UPROSE is that what we're looking at isn't just aspirational, but it is operational. I think that we need support from the city and from the agencies to help do this. Think about some of the facilities that are owned by the city. Some of them, or the one that's owned by the state, like the MTA, have a long history of toxic exposure. The story would be, we've taken this building, who did harm, and we're turning it into a vehicle for a just transition.

We're going to, going to prepare the rooftop, and we're going to work with communities so that we can operationalize this. This can happen in the South Bronx, this can happen in Manhattan. This can happen all over the city. I think the bottleneck, as you call it, is political will and distrust of community-led solutions. Almost as though corporations and governance has all the answers, and communities are supposed to be like the passive recipients of their good intentions.

I think when we're dealing in this moment of political disruption and extreme weather events, communities become partners in decision-making. Communities have really viable operational recommendations about how we move away from an economy that has been hurting us on all levels and has been contributing to climate change, and will make it possible for us to be able to thrive. It really is what is the culture of practice and what are the values of the administration coming in and the folks that we're working in so that we can make this stuff happen.

It's not enough to have solar on rooftops if the owners are not the people who live in those neighborhoods. We need to be able to create community ownership over this, and we need to be able to center building community wealth. I'm excited and confident about the new administration coming in, and hoping that they will embrace these ideas and support us in making more of it and creating more opportunities. Because you can't address the issue of affordability without addressing the issue of climate change. This is an example of how we do that. We are addressing affordability while at the same time we're addressing the threat of extreme weather events.

Kousha Navidar: Let me step in here for a second-

Elizabeth Yeampierre: Sure.

Kousha Navidar: -because I want to be sure that we get to just one more caller, also from Sunset Park. I appreciate all the texts and calls coming in from Sunset Park. Y'all are showing up. Let's go to Brian, who wants to talk a little bit more about the people signing up. Hi, Brian. Welcome to the show.

Brian: Yes. Hi, my name is Brian. I'm a reporter for The Sunset Post, a local newspaper in Sunset Park. I'm curious if you could tell us more about the demographics of the people who have already signed up. Are they immigrants? Are they owners? What are their income level? This kind of information would be interesting.

Kousha Navidar: Brian, thank you so much. Elizabeth. Any sense of that?

Elizabeth Yeampierre: It is a mix of people. We wanted to make sure that the majority of the people who signed up were working-class people. Unfortunately, when you create an initiative like this, the people who are most educated, who are the most privileged, are the quickest to sign up. We had a lot of organizers. We had people like in Bravo stores, in bodegas and laundromats signing people up. I can't give you the specifics about the demographics. Honestly, if you want to contact Ahmad Perez here at UPROSE, he can do that number crunching for you.

Kousha Navidar: Do you have that email handy or a link that people could go to, maybe?

Elizabeth Yeampierre: Yes. Sunset Park Solar has its own website, but you can contact us directly at info.org, and that is an active email. We look at it every single day and just send it to Ahmad's attention. Our technical assistance--

Kousha Navidar: Sorry. Just what's the-- What was the-- info@--

Elizabeth Yeampierre: @uprose.org.

Kousha Navidar: Wonderful. Thank you so much.

Elizabeth Yeampierre: Because for us, the whole purpose of creating this initiative was to be able to serve the working class. Sunset Park is a predominantly working-class community. It was important that the people who were prioritizing, who benefited from this, were historically marginalized communities and working-class people in Sunset Park. At this moment, where we are 90% subscribed, I think that being able to provide that information is a little easier than it was, say, last year. We can do that. I don't have those numbers here. We can crunch that for you.

Kousha Navidar: Wonderful. Brian, thank you so much for your reporting and also for asking that question and coming on here. We'll have to leave it there. There are so many texts, so many calls that we just don't have time for. I just want to say, listeners, thank you so much for being a part of this conversation. Elizabeth Yeampierre, executive director of UPROSE, thank you so much for this work and coming onto the show to talk to us about it.

Elizabeth Yeampierre: Thank you so much for having me. Ashe. Thank you.

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