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Brigid Bergin: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. I'm Brigid Bergin, sitting in for Brian today. Think back to a time you saw someone being rude. Were they smoking on the train? Maybe taking a phone call on speaker in an otherwise quiet public place? Maybe chewing with their mouth open? Did they, God forbid, snap their fingers to get a server's attention in a restaurant?

Whatever you thought of because of social norms are so shaped by culture and context, odds are you were immediately in your bones aware that something was rude. Over the last generation, maybe even the last five years, thanks to COVID, smartphones, or social media, depending on who you ask, it seems, at least to some people, that we've all become ruder than ever before. Well, have we? Allie Volpe, correspondent at Vox, went on a quest to answer that question, and she joins me now to discuss what she found. Allie, welcome back to WNYC.

Allie Volpe: Thank you so much for having me.

Brigid Bergin: The headline of your article is, Are We in a Crisis of Rudeness? I know it's tough to measure, but what's the case for yes?

Allie Volpe: The case for yes is something that etiquette expert Lizzie Post pointed out to me. She wasn't sure whether the answer was definitively yes or no, but she pointed out something interesting, that we have more ways than ever to be annoying to one another, and we seem to not really be paying attention to how our behavior impacts other people. Because of technology, because of this focus on individualism and our own self-comfort, we sort of are prioritizing what might be best for ourselves and not really paying attention to how that impacts other people. I think that really points to the yes.

Brigid Bergin: Assuming that we all are a little bit ruder than we were in the past, maybe this is a silly question, but is that so bad? What's the effect of, besides just being annoying, of seeing people be rude in public life or being rude yourself?

Allie Volpe: Actually, rudeness is like a disease. It spreads. It's something that, if you see it, and research has shown this, if you see it and it gets in your mind and makes you agitated, you are more likely to be rude to somebody else. It has this contagion where it's spreading among people. I think there is something to be said about being polite, and it doesn't need to be really hard just to be civil to one another, because the fact that impoliteness, rudeness, incivility is contagious. We don't want a world full of people where we're spreading this hostility to one another.

Brigid Bergin: Listeners, I am sure many of you have thoughts on this. We'd love to hear you weigh in. What social norms do you see being violated recently that you haven't seen in the past? If you're younger, what are some of the things you see older people doing that you find kind of rude? Some of you older folks give us your kids', these days, complaints. What are some of the behaviors, especially concerning cell phones, maybe, that you find rude? Any other questions you have for our guest, Allie Volpe, about her reporting, you can call or text 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692.

Allie, setting aside whether it's a rudeness crisis, one of the people you interviewed said she did believe that we're living through an attention crisis. You write, "Perpetually distracted and always looking at screens. We've become accustomed to switching topics mid-conversation or checking email over dinner." How has technology and cell phones made us all maybe a little bit ruder?

Allie Volpe: I think it has had a huge effect, especially generationally. Something a couple of experts pointed out to me is that younger folks who grew up with technology really integrated into their lives might not see some of these so-called breaches as being that impactful. If you've grown up with a cell phone in your hand or playing with an iPad at dinner since you were a toddler, you might not find it rude to to be sending an email over text as an adult. Whereas folks who were brought up to pay attention when you're talking to people without the technology, they might find that extremely rude, that if they're having a conversation with somebody and somebody's looking down at their phone.

There's a lot of generational context at play, especially with technology, if it is more normalized. Think about a classroom in college, and all of these students are used to having their technology, so they might have their laptops out in class, but maybe their professor perceives that as rude or doesn't know that if they're actually paying attention, what that just might be, how they have learned to take notes and to focus in class. It really depends on the social norms of when you were brought up.

Brigid Bergin: That's so interesting. You also cited a couple of surveys that might help explain where some of this is coming from. One professor told you that the world itself has made a lot of people "angrier or on edge or frustrated." Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Allie Volpe: Yes. A professor at UNC, Christine Porath, did a global survey in 2022 talking to 2,000 people who either had customer-facing jobs or observed people who did, which is probably all of us. You go into a store and interact with someone who works in retail or at the coffee shop. She found 73% of those respondents said it was not unusual for customers to be rude to those people, those customer-facing roles, compared to only 61% who said the same in 2012. That's a decade and a large difference. She points to the COVID pandemic as being this fracturing point where people were stressed, they're on edge, and you take that out on other people.

Brigid Bergin: I want to bring some of our listeners into the conversation. Allie, you would not be surprised to know that our listeners have a lot of thoughts on this particular topic. I'm sure your pieces sparked a lot of conversation with people you know as well. Kim, in Chestnut Ridge, why don't you kick us off?

Kim: Hi there. Thanks for taking my call. I had an experience this weekend at the MoMA. I had sent them out to your screener, but the MoMA, where there's two Van Gogh paintings on display, and I've never seen a Van Gogh in person. I've never been to the MoMA. People of all ages crowded around Starry Night with their cell phones out, not just taking pictures of the painting itself, but taking selfies of themselves in front of the pictures and taking pictures of their partners in 20 different poses and then reviewing the poses on their phone, standing dead center as close as can be to the painting, blocking everyone else's view.

I was very frustrated and had to tap them on the shoulder and kindly ask them to move out of the way so that I could actually see the painting with my eyeballs and experience the world that's standing in front of me instead of through a phone or a lens.

Brigid Bergin: Kim, thank you so much for that story. Let's get another listener in. Josh in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC.

Josh: Hi. First, one of my main complaints is cell phones again. It's people speaking really loudly on cell phones in places where other people are quiet, in, for example, coffee shops, where people are studying or speaking quietly to one another, even in places like museums or libraries. The other point I wanted to make is, I think, this is indicative of a much broader social problem of incredible self-absorption in our society, with little concern about how it affects other people. That's all I want to say.

Brigid Bergin: Josh, thank you for your thoughts and for that piece of the analysis which is part of what we're going to talk about, Allie, from your story, that idea of is, some of this rudeness about self-centeredness. Another listener texted a similar thought, that the root cause of becoming ruder, self-centeredness, is some of the same reasons why people are afraid of getting vaccines, or why this sense of a lack of community. What's your take on that?

Allie Volpe: Oh, I agree 100%. We live in a culture that really sort of glorifies the self above the community and values our own comfort, our own happiness. We don't really take a minute to think about how our actions impact other people. I think when you have all of this culture, especially online, sort of perpetuating this idea of if someone's making you angry or upsetting you, it's okay to cut them out of your life. It's okay to do things that prioritize your peace and your happiness.

Of course, we're going to probably be a little bit more rude to other people because, if all we have to rely on is ourselves, why should we care for inconveniencing someone else at the museum who's trying to see a photo if all we are caring about is trying to get that perfect photo ourselves?

Brigid Bergin: This kind of conversation seems to be happening in a lot of different media spheres. There's a recent piece in The New York Times about a certain flavor of self-help book that encourages people to center their needs at the expense of everyone else's. How does that fit into our conversation about rudeness and social expectations?

Allie Volpe: Right, exactly. When you are taking a look at your own needs above other people, inherently, you're going to probably be more rude, as much as I hate to say it, if you are thinking about-- I don't know. I think about the world today. Things are out of control for a lot of people, and people feel really badly. One way to take control is within your own life. If you feel like doing things to further your own happiness and your own comfort is your way of coping with that, it really makes sense to me that that is how we would see people manifesting their behaviors in their relationships.

Relationships are messy, they are uncomfortable, and we have to grapple with that fact. It's not as easy as just saying, "Oh, I'm asserting a boundary, and you must follow it," which is the incorrect way of thinking about the word boundary. When culture is telling you it's okay to be a jerk, it's okay to do that because that is how you will be happy, and you'll be at peace, that's just not the world that we live in. We need people to survive. We need to be cooperative. If you're constantly burning bridges with people and being rude to them for the sake of protecting your peace, you might find yourself an island.

Brigid Bergin: Allie, I want to take a moment to think a little bit more about the technology aspect of this. I feel like you can't open any social media platform without seeing some story about airplane etiquette or some back and forth between a passenger and either someone who works for the airline or another passenger. Is there evidence that more of these types of incidents are actually happening, or is it because everyone has a camera in their hands now and a platform to post a video, that we're just seeing more of these videos?

Allie Volpe: I think I might have seen a study or stat somewhere that said that people are-- they have shorter fuses and we are lashing out more in these ways. I also think it's a perception problem, where all of these things are being elevated and recorded. That's a whole other issue about what right to privacy do we have? I think just the fact that we are constantly bombarded with videos and content of people behaving poorly gives the impression that there is more of this happening.

I think certainly there was a lot of this, probably, that predates technology. Also, again, going back to the pandemic, it really seems like there has been a ratcheting up of short tempers, of anger, of public outbursts. Again, I think that just goes back to this sort of precarious world that we've been living in for the last five years. Certainly, things have not calmed down since that moment. When people are on edge, they're going to act out in aggressive or angry ways.

Brigid Bergin: I have to acknowledge that we have several listeners who have texted in a comment that is some variation of the one that I will read, which is, you can't have this discussion without mentioning the coarsening effect Donald Trump has had on public discourse. How much of that is something that came up in your reporting, Allie?

Allie Volpe: Again, I think just the political landscape that we live in. Over a course of number of pieces, a lot of my reporting has pointed to this, especially in America, people are feeling scared. They're feeling not safe. In that New York Times piece you referenced earlier, the reporter mentions social media filled with memes of crying migrants shared by the White House account.

When that stuff is all around you, it starts to feel normalized, and it shouldn't be. This isn't normal behavior. I think it really pushes people to feel like it's okay to act in some of these brash and brazen ways. We forget the social code because, if the people in power are doing it, then it must be okay for me. I think that's a huge opportunity for leaders to step in and guide people, act in ways where people can look to them and be a model. Unfortunately, we are not seeing that.

Brigid Bergin: Listeners, if you're just joining us, this is The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I am Brigid Bergin, not Brian Lehrer, who is off today. I'm joined by Allie Volpe, who is a correspondent at Vox. We are talking about the crisis of rudeness and how you are experiencing it. Allie, we got one listener who raised the potential that maybe it's not just rudeness. The listener writes, "I think there's an element of cluelessness that can be rightfully perceived as rude. It's like we need a societal lesson in caring." What's your take on that? Is it perhaps also attributable to COVID and some of these devices that people have not learned to be polite?

Allie Volpe: Right. I think that points to actually what rude is, because rude, it differs for everybody, depending on how you're brought up and certain lessons that you, maybe, have learned as a kid. Rudeness can also be pretty ambiguous because you don't know that other person, what their intentions are. Something that, if you wait, if a neighbor waves to you and you don't see them and you don't wave back, they might perceive that as rude when it wasn't your intention to be rude. You just didn't see them. This happened to me this week.

There's a lot of ambiguity there. I think when we're lost in our minds and there's our phone in front of us, distracting us, it makes it that much more likely that we might have these more ambiguous moments, these more passive moments of being rude. I think a lot of times, our intentions probably aren't to be rude. We just aren't really paying attention.

Brigid Bergin: You note the generational differences that can contribute to what's perceived as rude and what isn't on this kids', these days, angle. Can you talk us through what Gen Z thinks is rude, that's maybe rubbing older folks the wrong way?

Allie Volpe: Yes. Again, this isn't Gen Z, but there was an Australian study that looked at generational differences between millennials, Gen X, and boomers, especially when it comes to technology. That researcher found that younger people, so in that study, millennials, found it rude if people didn't answer a text message or an email right away, digital correspondence right away. To them, politeness is to be prompt in your answers. Whereas older folks, they didn't see that as much of a breach of the social code if it takes them a little while to answer.

I can imagine that sort of finding would hold true with Gen Z, who are only more digital natives, who are used to constantly communicating via screens, especially since the pandemic. If you don't get an immediate response, their alarm bells go up of like, "Oh, my gosh, did I do something wrong?" Panic ensues. That generational difference, I think, is a really interesting one.

Brigid Bergin: I think Sarah on the Upper West Side wants to say a little bit more on this angle. Sarah, you're on WNYC.

Sarah: Yes, hi. What a great show. I find that the language, with younger people, it's very common to say, "No, you're good." I think that it implies that there was something wrong before. I think we have to be really careful with our language because it changes the way we act. I definitely have noticed a difference. Then, another annoying pet peeve is when people sit in a bus on the aisle side when there's an empty seat by the window. You need to move over. It's not a Rolls-Royce.

Brigid Bergin: [laughs] Sarah, thank you for your perspective on that. Allie, any reaction to what Sarah was raising in either point?

Allie Volpe: Oh, I think the bus thing is so funny. Again, and that probably goes back to someone's preference or how-- I'm sure there was a parent or authority figure who told them, growing up, like, "No, you got to scoot in because you got to make room for people." It's like these things that we learn throughout our lives, or preferences that we discover throughout our lives, really make an impact on what we believe is rude or polite behavior. To someone else, they might not even cross their mind. Because that became such a sticking point at some point in that caller's life, that's something that they're picking up as being rude.

Brigid Bergin: I want to share a text from a listener that raises another dimension of this. This listener writes, "I want to add, this issue seems structural and economic in a huge way. People are increasingly stymied by massive phone trees with dysfunctional bots, or talking to blameless customer service agents in other countries whose options and training are limited, and first language isn't English.

It makes sense that Americans, funneled into these systems for accessing everything from needed medications to emergency flight changes so that by the time they actually speak to someone, to speak to a representative, people are ruder, and by all social forces, you mentioned infuriated and abused by dehumanizing systems implemented by profit-seeking corporations." What do you think of that?

Allie Volpe: Oh, my gosh. Yes, I am certainly not immune to that either when you get into those endless phone trees, and when you finally get to somebody, and your patience has worn so thin. I have to remind myself that it is not this person's fault that this system is set up the way it is. I think that's something we need to remind ourselves, that often the person that we are interfacing with, even though we might be having a bad day, or it might be crowded, and we've been waiting in line, or we're hungry, we have to remember that this is a person on the other side. A lot of times, they are not responsible for the way that we are feeling. Yes, we might be frustrated with the system, but that one individual is not in control of that.

Brigid Bergin: I want to go to Peter in Florida. Peter, you're on WNYC.

Peter: Formerly a Hoboken resident. I will gladly say, yes, indifference is rude. Worse than rude. For me, it's hostile because I depend on people. In the olden days, before smartphones, people looked around. They would never let me step off a subway platform as they did five years ago.

Brigid Bergin: Oh, wow.

Peter: You understand? I'm walking around. I realized I waved my cane in the air. No one said anything. I'm walking toward-- I hear them playing some music. Anyway, I stepped off the subway platform. Why? Because in the olden days, they were looking out for me.

Brigid Bergin: Peter, as I understand, I think you told our screener, you're blind?

Peter: I'm blind, yes. What I'm saying is that indifference is not just rude for me; it's hostile and dangerous because I depend on your vision to look out for me, to say, "Hey, you're a little close to the edge of the platform there." Everyone's looking at their smartphone or playing music.

Brigid Bergin: Sorry about that, Peter. I think we dropped Peter's line by accident there. Peter, thank you for listening and calling. I'm sorry that the line dropped. Let's go to Ali in Montclair, New Jersey. Ali, you're in WNYC?

Ali: Yes, thank you for taking my call. I'm a high school teacher of 18 years. I'm new to a district again, so I'm not tenured because I've moved around. This current administration has made it impossible to teach American kids kindness, empathy, to the point where I fear for my job, that I won't get tenure, if I teach students how to be empathetic towards migrant students. I'm a Spanish teacher, and so I walk a very tight line because I want to teach the youth of America how to be good people. It makes me scared, because what if I lose my job? There have been ramifications in my district of people who have shown empathy, and then there's been political retribution. I think all of that has made the society coarser, nastier, and scarier.

I also just want to add, as a mother of two daughters whom I adore dearly, but the idea of having cell phones in their hands kind of makes the parents' job a little more irrelevant because of the fact that these kids today think they know everything because they have the answers in the little computer in their hand. What parents teach is the interpersonal thought that you can't get from a phone. It just makes it harder. Society's gotten ruder because kids think they know everything because they can look up all the answers.

Brigid Bergin: Ali, thank you so much. Good luck in your new teaching assignment. Back to school next week, so it's coming quick for you. Allie, two very different callers with different experiences. I think it sounded, in large part, on the receiving end of some of this rudeness. Love to get your reaction to those.

Allie Volpe: The kindness note, I think, is really pertinent, and it has implications for the future generations if no one is teaching the importance of kindness or politeness. I know the word etiquette can seem kind of stuffy, and oh, where you put your forks and your napkins, but it's really an important framework for how we treat people. Etiquette is a guideline. If people are just going rogue and treating people however, that's what people will learn, that it's okay to speak to people in cruel ways, or it's okay to be indifferent to people who are different than you. I think that has terrible repercussions.

Again, the experts that I spoke to pointed to leaders, parents, teachers, coaches to be the guiding light for younger people and explain to them why it's important to be kind and to treat people with respect and decency, or even on the most benign things of why it's important not to chew with your mouth open, but to engage in these discussions with young people and explain why it's so important, and to point out good etiquette that you see, like someone holding the door open. Just taking note of those things to remember that it is possible to still be decent to people. Just as rudeness is contagious, we can be contagious with small, little things that we do for people, too. Kind things.

Brigid Bergin: We were getting lots of texts with different stories and examples of how other people feel like they are witnessing some of this rudeness. A little bit of pushback from one listener who writes, "I think it's a semantics thing, whereas I don't necessarily think people are more rude. Everyone seems to have a much lower attention span and are quick to interrupt, not actively listen, which is beyond rude. It's a complete breakdown in interpersonal communication."

Another listener wrote, "I'm 45, and I've lived in New York City since '98. I've noticed that, in the past month, folks that are Gen Z and Alpha having a lack of spatial awareness. Example, outside of an art opening of all 20-year-olds, the younger crowd not making room for pedestrians on the sidewalk."

Two different perspectives there. Allie, in our last minute or so, we know some of it comes from culture in context, but are there things that are just universally rude that people can avoid, and are there things that people can do to push back against some of this?

Allie Volpe: Again, I think it just goes back to what your definition of root is. I think what experts have told me is that it's respectful to give someone your full attention when you're talking to them and to be considerate of how your behavior is impacting other people. Whether you're on the sidewalk, being aware of, okay, there's other people here, too, or if you're on the subway, just being aware that there are other people in the space as you, too, and modifying your behavior accordingly.

Brigid Bergin: Well, we're going to leave it there for now. My guest has been Allie Volpe, correspondent at Vox. Allie, thank you so much for coming on.

Allie Volpe: Thank you so much for having me.

Brigid Bergin: I think we have been very polite to each other, by the way.

Allie Volpe: We have.

[laughter]

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