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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Quick reminder to put a pin in our convention conversation that we will carry Kamala Harris's speech live on the station tonight. Our DNC coverage begins at nine o'clock so if you don't have access to a television or a streaming service or just would rather listen to it on the radio for any reason, we've got it tonight at nine o'clock here on WNYC. Obviously, we'll be talking about it tomorrow morning on the show.

Also, another invitation to sign up for The Brian Lehrer Show newsletter. If you're interested in that, it comes to your inbox every Thursday afternoon so that's this afternoon. I've got some thoughts there about the DNC, and we've got other features about the show. Sign up for our free Brian Lehrer Show newsletter if you're interested at wnyc.org/blnewsletter and it'll come to your inbox every Thursday afternoon. Now, we turn to skateboarding. Why?

Earlier this year, in his state of the city address, Mayor Eric Adams announced a $24 million city investment to transform New York into what he envisions as the skate capital of the East Coast. He used that term, skate capital of the East Coast. Of that, $11 million has been earmarked for a skate park in Mount Prospect Park. That's for those of you who don't know, on Eastern Parkway near Underhill Avenue close to Grand Army Plaza. In that part of Prospect Park, plans for the so called Brooklyn Skate Garden have it sketched out as about half the size of a football field.

That would be the largest of the four new planned skate parks by the city. Making a flagship skate park will require paving over some green space in Mount Prospect Park. The announcement has launched what you might literally call a turf war between skate advocates and other neighborhood activists. Now, we will hear from both sides of the debate sequentially. In about 10 minutes, we'll talk to New York City Council Member Crystal Hudson of District 35, where the city is eyeing the skatepark. She's in support of the project. Joining us first is Hayley Gorenberg, the founder of Friends of Mount Prospect Park. Her group opposes the project. Hayley, thanks for joining us. Welcome to WNYC.

Hayley Gorenberg: Terrific to be here. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: What's wrong with putting a skate park there?

Hayley Gorenberg: It turns out that a surprise 40,000 square foot regional scale, mostly concrete skate complex on a beloved historic neighborhood green park with no community consultation, flying in the face of all of our officials green and climate and resiliency policies and their studies and their surveys, including community surveys, with Crystal Hudson, our council member in the midst of a galloping climate crisis is a real problem for over 2,000 community members and counting.

It's a green space problem. You referenced a turf war, and I can see how that's a snazzy term, but we're looking to deconflict the situation with leadership from our officials because there is no inherent reason that we have to pit preserving New York City's urban green space against skateboarding. We've got a lot of skate spaces nearby. They are languishing. They are badly maintained. Skateboarders complain about their condition and their features. We support the win-win for everybody, and moving this investment to nearby skate spaces and other paved spaces so skateboarders can enjoy the space and everybody can continue to enjoy all the green space in Mount Prospect Park. That includes our kids.

Brian Lehrer: Are you proposing a specific alternative venue that I can ask the council member about when she comes on?

Hayley Gorenberg: There were many that we can see, and that's just lay people in the neighborhood looking and seeing what's around and seeing what the complaints have been from skateboarders. There is Brower Park, which is right next door. It is another site that is proposed in the mayor's surprise plan. You can see that the cement's all cracked up and that you can see, even as not a skateboarder, why boarders complain about it.

Thomas Greene skate park is just a few minutes away walking, faster if you skate. It was built in 2010 with minimal features and the head of the nearby Homage Skate Academy said it was too bad that they didn't have a bowl. They really wanted it to be better but hopefully this was interim and they'd get more money and be able to build out a bowl. Never happened. That's languishing since 2010, just a big, flat expanse of asphalt. There are other spaces near and far that we've looked at and actually talked to some skate designers, including from Tony Hawk's foundation, that could be made into great skate spaces. We are confident that with good leadership, there's a way forward that's fully win-win.

Brian Lehrer: We can take a few phone calls. Listeners, this is a relatively short segment, and we're having guests from each side of the skate park debate for Mount Prospect Park on the show but we're going to take a few phone calls from you, too. People are already calling in because obviously people in the neighborhood have strong feelings about this and maybe there are implications for other public space uses around the city when conflicts over the use of public space arise. 212-433-WNYC, 433 9692. Here's Aaron in Manhattan calling in in support of the skate park. Aaron, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Aaron: Hey, how you doing?

Brian Lehrer: Good. What you got?

Aaron: I just wanted to give some insight. I've been a skate park advocate since 2018. I've helped advocate for parks like Andy Kessler, which is on 108 and Riverside Drive. Just this park in particular, it's going to be really good for the skate community. A lot of the younger kids that I skate with now who want to train specifically in the transition discipline don't have a lot of access to parks like that. Skateboarding is on the Olympic level now. A lot of these kids have big aspirations, and it's just an opportunity to give them access to more spaces like that.

Brian Lehrer: What do you say to the guest who's arguing that there are plenty of other spaces that they could use without ripping out grass from a park?

Aaron: I've gone to a lot of these community board meetings and a lot of people from the community, and just again, speaking as a skate park advocate, a lot of their suggestions, while they are great, these sites, especially with the city, these sites are specifically chosen by the city. Mount Prospect Park was chosen by the city. A lot of their other suggestions, a lot of people think-- A lot of the skate parks that we already have are on the sides of highways or under bridges, and just all the debris and dirt that falls from those bridges and highways, for the skater, that doesn't make a safe environment. This is a great opportunity to put a great skate park in a green space and a great location with access.

Brian Lehrer: Aaron, I'm going to leave it there for time. Our board is full and our time is limited. Hayley Gorenberg from Friends of Mount Prospect Park, which opposes the skate park, what do you say to Aaron, and particularly the point he was just making there about the quality of that space versus other potential venues?

Hayley Gorenberg: There are a lot of skate spaces that are right adjoined to playgrounds. They're in high quality spaces, and they're just waiting to be improved. Actually, having looked at it and including talking to skate designers, we can see major problems with the Mount Prospect Park space. For instance, there are no clear sight lines through Mount Prospect Park. It is raised up on top of a reservoir that used to serve Brooklyn nearly 100 years ago. It is on a steep grade with no clear sight lines.

Tony Hawk's own best practices says that, and to quote him, "To deter antisocial behavior in skate facilities, you have to have clear sight lines from the street," and there are no such sight lines. There is a ramp entrance to Mount Prospect Park that people using mobility aids, little kids, people walking dogs use all day long to get in and out of the park. That ramp, skaters and designers agree it's dangerous. It invites skaters to hill bomb into collisions.

Even if they miss people using the ramp and the lines going into the botanic garden, it empties right out onto eastern Parkway, very busy multi lane traffic. This is potentially a dangerous spot. We don't want to set something up where we end up with over-policing of youth. Some kind of a problem with behavior that the skate park people themselves identify can be an issue. Nobody wants to have that kind of increased interaction or policing of young people just because the site is poorly suited to this kind of building.

Brian Lehrer: Listener writes, "It's literally steps from a huge park and other green spaces." Just to clarify that for people who don't know the area, Prospect Park itself is right across Flatbush Avenue. What do you say to those, like that texter who push back and say, "Look, you've got a green space, the ultimate green space right across the street."

Hayley Gorenberg: Brooklyn and New York City have no green space to spare. We do not. Brooklyn is, according to the Wilderness Society, the most heavily paved borough per capita. When you say steps away to Prospect Park, it's a different environment. It's a wonderful environment. It's got a high speed dynamic loop. There are pelotons of bikers and people using electric motor vehicles zipping around Prospect Park all day long. It's exciting, it's fun, and it's a great resource. It is not accessible to everybody.

Some of our elder residents, and I know Crystal Hudson particularly, she's campaigned on serving our elders, our elder residents can't get there, can't use it safely, can't access it safely. Mount Prospect Park was designed in the '30s, WPA eligible for the National Register of Historic Places. It was designed to be what it still serves as. It is a park designed for quiet recreation between the library and the botanic garden and that is how it's used.

It's visionary design and also, if we want to continue being visionaries we cannot keep with this old last century thinking that it is fine to just pave our green spaces like there's no tomorrow. The tomorrow that we're looking at staring us in the face is the climate tomorrow. We already have heat emergency, dangerous heat, dangerous flooding. Right next door in the library, we've got a cooling center because we have dangerous heat. We know that that affects our elders, our youngest, people with disabilities, and that we have to preserve green space that is being used for our neighbor's health.

Brian Lehrer: Another listener writes, "Mount Prospect Park currently has huge bare dirt areas because dogs are let loose there. It's not this lush green area in an area that's lacking green space." Obviously, we're going to take callers and texters on the other side of the question when we bring in our guest from the other side of the question in just a minute. Last question for you. The 2021 skateboarder representation survey of over 2,200 skateboarders nationwide showed that 46% of respondents identified as non-white.

The breakdown of that 46% goes further, with the majority identifying as Hispanic, Black and Asian, in that order. All of which is to say, skateboarding as a sport is growing and becoming more and more of a sport among people of color. Is there a racial issue here? In your view? Is this a more white residential area and the people who live there not wanting this more diverse and young skateboarding community?

Hayley Gorenberg: A lot of people pushing it are white skateboarders, professionals and designers but that aside, this neighborhood is actually more racially diverse, has a greater proportion of Black residents than the city overall and folks are very attuned to racial diversity and justice. That actually ties back to the policing point I was made. Right on the street, Eastern Parkway is frequently a site of Black Lives Matter protests, and many, many, many of us from the neighborhood of all different races join in.

I think that there's a high awareness of racial diversity and the importance of that amongst the neighbors, and also that it's a racially diverse group of folks who are concerned about protecting Mount Prospect Park and keeping it green for all of us, the full mosaic of Brooklyn that uses it. To the last texter's point about the spots that are going bare in the park, we don't think that our neighbors who have dogs who use the park have worse dogs than the neighbors who have their dogs on off-leash in Prospect Park, which does look more consistently green.

We have made complaints to the city that we want basic maintenance of the lawn. Those complaints have been routinely shut down, shut out and closed out and we've been told that the condition is corrected when absolutely no maintenance work has been done. We actually got a professional donation that we offered to aerate and reseed those bare spots ourselves, and we were turned down so we think that that also is manufactured.

Brian Lehrer: You're saying it's about why isn't the city maintaining that part of the park like they maintain parts of other parks where there are dogs? Hayley Gorenberg, the founder of Friends of Mount Prospect Park, her group opposes the skate park proposed for there. Thank you very much for joining us. We appreciate it.

Hayley Gorenberg: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Joining us now is Council Member Crystal Hudson, who represents the district, District 35 in Brooklyn, Crown Heights, Prospect Heights, Clinton Hill, Fort Greene. Council Member, welcome back to WNYC.

Crystal Hudson: Thank you so much for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: You heard the objections over the last few minutes from our previous guests. Primarily that green space in the city should be sacrosanct, and there are other paved spaces in the city where a quality skate park could go. Why not?

Crystal Hudson: First of all, I do want to correct the record. I represent everybody in my district, regardless of how they fall on this particular issue. This is an amazing opportunity. Listen, at a time when the city council is fighting tooth and nail to ensure funding for our parks across the city, this is an opportunity for investment in our park, investment in Mount Prospect Park specifically. I do want to refute some of the claims that have been made by Hayley. We will be planting trees. We will have mitigation of flooding that has been occurring for years in that park.

The current uses, there's a playground. People use it for recreational use. Then she mentioned also the dogs off leash. All of that will be maintained. None of the uses will change. We're simply adding one more feature to a park, which is a skate garden or skate park. It's an opportunity, as you mentioned, to bring more people of color, queer folks, young people, people who are already on the margins of our society who, to one caller's point, are stuck with spaces that are limited only to under bridges, under highways. This is an opportunity to bring people into a nice green environment to continue skateboarding.

Brian Lehrer: She mentioned a number of other particular spaces that she said would not be under bridges and by highways and stuff, but again, that wouldn't involve paving over grass. Brower Park was one of them. She mentioned a few others. What about Brower Park or any other particular location? There must be places that are not under bridges and next to highways. Or what about some of the ones she mentioned in particular?

Crystal Hudson: Brower Park is actually part of this plan. The mayor announced four skate parks that will be created or improved. Brower Park is one of the four that will have improvements, and so it will be yet another opportunity for skaters to be there. It's a good distance from Mount Prospect Park. We're also a little bit more transit rich in my district than at Brower Park and so it's just another opportunity for folks. They have also made recommendations of having skaters literally in the middle of Grand Army Plaza that is surrounded by cars. It's not a safe location.

I think ultimately, there are a few people who have seen this park as a private park, and every single park across the city is open to everyone, welcomes everyone, whether you're from the community or not. I think it's a great opportunity to welcome more people. The expectation, too, that skateboarders should have to commute a little bit longer to have access to a great skate park or skate garden in a green space is something that we should be looking very closely at.

Brian Lehrer: We took supporters of the park for the previous guest. We'll take a couple of opponents for you. Amir in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with a council member. Hi, Amir.

Amir: Hi. I live next to this park, and I just want to say that the park is used by a lot of people, a lot of families who walk. I take my daughter on walks there. We do picnics and other gatherings. Even though it's currently-- There is a little bit more dirt in the middle where the people play with their dogs, which is also lovely. It's not an underutilized space. It really does serve the community. I heard these big numbers of the size of the park. Even though they say that it won't affect the other uses, the size, it seems like they're trying to build a very big park there, and we haven't seen a plan of how that actually will allow everyone to continue using the park. It seems like it's going to overrun the current community use of the park.

Brian Lehrer: Amir, thank you. Council Member, how would you respond to Amir, and can you talk specifically to his point about the size of the skate park? The previous guest said about half the size of a football field. If you confirm that, what percentage of the current Mount Prospect Park would that be?

Crystal Hudson: Sure. First, I'll say I also enjoy the park. I live blocks from it as well. I take my kid there in her stroller and it is a lovely park that is utilized by many neighbors. What we're looking to do is to enhance the park. Less than 30,000 square feet of hardscape will be added, and there are already concrete paths and all of that. What we're trying to do is create a skate park within the existing green environment. We're going to be adding 10,000 square feet of newly planted green scape, which will include microforest, bioswales, et cetera.

I mentioned the flooding mitigation that's going to occur. We're going to add safety and security lighting, improved landscaping, a community garden. We really want this to be a community space, a true community space. We've held a number of community input sessions. I held a community briefing with the parks department and the mayor's office back in March, and then the parks department held a separate community visioning session on May 1.

We've already heard from hundreds of community members about exactly what it is they want to see in this space. I think it's going to add to the existing environment. As I've mentioned, the uses will remain the same. If you currently walk your dog or enjoy off-leash hours, you will still be able to do that. If you currently take your kid to the playground, you will still be able to do that. If you currently play soccer or baseball or run around the small path that's there, you'll still be able to do that.

Brian Lehrer: A couple of texts are coming in that raise an environmental issue. One says, "I live near Mount Prospect Park and use it. The city disingenuously claims concrete skate park garden will mitigate flooding and heat, when in fact, it will generate and exacerbate these problems." Another one writes, "We should not be seeding any green space to concrete in this area of heavy rains and flooding. The zoo right next door had historic flooding very recently." What about that considering the rain we get in the climate change era and adding more concrete?

Crystal Hudson: As I mentioned, we're adding 10,000 square feet of trees, microforests, green space, bioswales, all of that. This park is going to undergo a significant renovation, which will include the flooding mitigation. This park currently experiences tremendous flooding. As was mentioned before, it sits up from Eastern Parkway. That retaining wall currently experiences tons of flooding each rainy season. That is all going to be mitigated. It's a parks project. The parks does this on a regular basis. The parks department, I should say, does this on a regular basis and so all of those concerns will absolutely be addressed. This will be a park that no longer experiences the type of flooding that it has over the last several years.

Brian Lehrer: I know you got to go. Just tell our listeners who will make the ultimate decision here and when.

Crystal Hudson: This is a mayor's initiative and so the mayor will make the ultimate decision. My understanding is that the decision has been made and that it's going to be at Mount Prospect Park, as I mentioned before. It was announced with three other locations, one other being Brower Park. I believe there are two locations in the Bronx. We welcome every opportunity to hear from folks. I have met personally with Hayley and her group, which was just formed at this announcement.

It's a new group, and I've met with them on several occasions. Like I mentioned, we've done a few community visioning sessions already, so we're always willing to continue meeting with people and continue hearing from them but I am personally excited to see the enhancements that will be made at this park.

Brian Lehrer: Council Member Crystal Hudson. We heard earlier from Hayley Gorenberg, the founder of Friends of Mount Prospect Park. Council Member, thanks so much for giving us this time.

Crystal Hudson: Thanks so much, Brian. Take care.

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