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Kousha Navidar: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar, a host here at WNYC, filling in for Brian today. On today's show as she does every Wednesday, Liz Kim, our lead Eric Adams reporter here at WNYC and Gothamist, will join us to talk about the news from city hall. The mayor reacted to the news that the city's comptroller Brad Lander announced he'll challenge Mayor Adams for the Democratic nomination in next year's mayoral primary.

Plus, later in the show our centennial series 100 Years of 100 Things continues with a conversation about the life and legacy of James Baldwin, an absolute icon of the 20th century who would have turned 100 years old this week, in just two days actually. We'll wrap today's show by hearing from those of you, I guess, really all of you who are maybe Olympics-obsessed and are drawing some inspiration from the athletes. We'll have some tips and we'll want to hear your stories about taking up a new sport later in life.

First, we turn to the 2024 presidential campaigns and one group of wealthy donors that are increasingly throwing their financial support behind each side of the political divide. Mega wealthy tech entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley, once considered supporters of the Democrats, are now some of the loudest voices in the room who are backing the Republicans. While most Americans may not care too much about the opinions of a few elite tech execs, their outsized financial influence has the potential to really shape the race.

In fact, big tech has already shaped the race. A small group of right-wing tech entrepreneurs have been credited with helping Donald Trump choose J.D. Vance as his running mate, according to a recent article in The Washington Post. Joining us now to break it all down is Erin Griffith, New York Times reporter covering tech companies in Silicon Valley. Hey, welcome to WNYC, Erin.

Erin Griffith: Thanks for having me.

Kousha Navidar: Great to have you here. Listeners, we can take a few of your questions and comments for our guest tech reporter, Erin Griffith. We're wondering if we have any listeners in the tech industry listening right now. How do you feel about how politics are unfolding and the infighting in your industry? What do you think are the biggest concerns for big tech when it comes to this election? What's at stake for you or anyone else with opinions about big tech and its influence in the 2024 election?

Give us a call. We're at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. You can also text us at that number, 212-433-9692. Erin, the wealthy group of tech executives who are splintering along the political divide, the folks that you write about are sometimes called the PayPal Mafia. Can you tell us more about who they are, how they know one another?

Erin Griffith: Sure. Those are certainly some of the most prominent people that are involved in this political infighting. It has expanded to encompass many others. The PayPal Mafia is this iconic group of tech founders and investors who all worked together at PayPal, formed some very deep and lasting bonds there and then they all went on to create very successful companies and firms. They're known for investing in each other's businesses. Many of them are ones that you've heard of.

Reid Hoffman is the co-founder of LinkedIn, Elon Musk obviously has created SpaceX, Tesla, several other very successful companies, David Sacks founded a couple of companies that sold for billions of dollars and is now an investor, Peter Thiel, very well-known in political circles as well, but he is the founder of Founders Fund, which is a very successful venture capital firm and there are many others that-- Roelof Botha is the head of Sequoia Capital, which is one of the most well-known venture capital firms.

It's this very interconnected network. They've always had divergent political views, but they still come together around business and have supported each other's businesses for many years. It's crazy to watch them really fighting and their relationship starting to unravel in public as they have around this upcoming election.

Kousha Navidar: There are some names that a lot of people will probably recognize that you just said. There's Musk, Thiel, Sacks. There's that second part of the moniker mafia. Where does that come from? Can you unpackage that a little bit?

Erin Griffith: This is a term that is now common in Silicon Valley where when the alumni of one company all go out and end up starting their own companies and invest in each other. We call it the Uber Mafia or the Twitch Mafia, which is a company that sold to Amazon, that several of their founders and alumni have started other successful companies. They all invest in each other and it's all interconnected. They hire from each other. It's the way Silicon Valley works. It's this interconnected ecosystem where they're all helping each other with talent and money and strategy. That's part of the magic of this place in a way. The mafias are certainly numerous now, but PayPal is the original one.

Kousha Navidar: You write about the splintering that you were referring to before you've written that, "While tech leaders often criticize one another in private, they rarely do so publicly for fear of upsetting a potential deal partner or future job prospect." Erin, can you talk a little bit about some of the higher profile public battles happening, some things that we could actually point to?

Erin Griffith: Yes. A lot of this is playing out on X, formerly known as Twitter, but the industry has always been insular where it's like, "Okay, we can privately have our little debates about business and strategy and we can disagree on things, but outwardly, we're going to present a united front because especially in the startup world, it's like we're the underdogs and it's us against the world. We're disruptors, we're the pirate ship, et cetera."

We've seen Vinod Khosla who's this very famous and successful investor and entrepreneur, has been bickering on Twitter with Elon Musk over-- Khosla is a Democrat or a liberal and has been supporting Biden and now Harris and Elon has been arguing with him over the reasons of that. Roger McNamee, who's a well-known investor and also has been a very vocal critic of Facebook over recent years, came out and criticized Marc Andreessen and Ben Horowitz, who are the founders of Andreessen Horowitz, a very well-known venture capital firm. Ben Horowitz slapped back on Twitter and was like, "We've known each other for 25 years. We disagree on this and you're going to take to Twitter instead of calling me."

David Sacks and Elon Musk had been attacking Reid Hoffman, their former colleague, over his support of Harris and previously Biden. Hoffman and Peter Thiel got into a little spat apparently on stage at Sun Valley, which is the elite gathering of dealmakers that happened in Idaho recently, where they were accusing Hoffman of essentially causing the assassination attack on Trump. It's been ugly.

Kousha Navidar: We just got this text from Richard in Manhattan. He writes, "There's a headline in The New York Times this morning. It says, 'More than 100 Silicon Valley investors pledge to support Kamala Harris.' What's going on exactly?" Richard, thank you very much for that text. Erin, bouncing off of what Richard is saying there, you write about how certain members of this group are moving to the right because they're unhappy with President Biden's tech policies. Can you talk to Richard's text a little bit? Who are these folks? Why are they moving towards Trump? What are they hoping that a Trump presidency would do?

Erin Griffith: Sure. I'm one of the authors of that story, so I'm happy to talk about this morning. I'm happy to talk about that as well. Just sticking with the movement on the right. Some of the most vocal and prominent tech luminaries have been very frustrated with some of the Biden administration's policies. Andreessen Horowitz put out a 90-minute video that I watched, outlining all the reasons for why they were endorsing Trump. It almost entirely was focused on Biden and how they disliked some of Biden's policies. That includes his appointees for heads of regulatory bodies including the FTC and the SEC.

Gary Gensler, the head of the SEC, has been very aggressive in going after crypto companies. Andreessen Horowitz is heavily invested in crypto. Biden signed an executive order that is proposing to regulate AI. They have a lot of AI companies. They don't really want to be regulated. Elon Musk felt snubbed by Biden when he was not invited to this electric car [chuckles] summit that happened at the White House. It's almost like a little bit personal as well and the reason that he was snubbed is because Tesla is not unionized and Biden is very close with the unions. Then there's also just this issue of taxes. Biden had proposed a new-- He's calling it a billionaire tax that would tax unrealized capital gains worth more than $100 million.

That essentially means if you own stock in a private startup and you haven't cashed out of it yet, and it's worth more than $100 million, you'll start paying taxes on it before you're even able to cash out. Startups are very frustrated over that, even though it's very unlikely to actually go anywhere. That has been cited by a few people. Then of course there's Lina Khan, the head of the FTC, who has been going after big mergers, which is the way that startup investors, venture capitalists make their money when their companies get bought by a bigger company.

There is a variety of complaints they have. To the listener's question, not everyone in tech agrees with that. There has been a significant pushback from people on the left who say, "Yes, maybe we don't like some of the direction that some of these things are going but we care about other issues more. We're not going to be single-issue voters around crypto or taxes when other issues like climate or abortion or things that are personal to us are much more important." That's what some of these letter writers are saying.

Kousha Navidar: Is it fair to say that most of the shift that we're seeing is happening from those who are in the highest profile positions with the most money at stake or do you see anything where the shift towards the right is actually trickling down as well to tech workers generally?

Erin Griffith: First of all, I'll say that there are plenty of loud and prominent voices on the left as well. We've talked about Reid Hoffman. There's also Vinod Khosla, Mark Cuban, and Ron Conway, a longtime Democrat. There are leaders on the left as well, but it's been more newsworthy that some of these guys have shifted over to the right because they were always Democrats or they supported Democrats in the past. That's the change here. Then I would say in general, I think the sense in Silicon Valley, I heard one person call it libertarian [chuckles] is how a lot of the Rank and File workers and founders feel.

They feel they're liberal on social issues but they lean libertarian on economic and regulatory issues. They would like to be lightly or not regulated essentially. The regulation that has happened over the last four years I think has maybe caused some people to question their support of Democratic party. I think with these very outspoken voices from the most successful and well-known leaders of the industry that gives people cover. Maybe they were already thinking about supporting Trump, or they were at least thinking about, "Now maybe I'm an independent non-Democrat."

When they see someone like Elon Musk come out and say it, then they feel less bad saying it. I think four years ago if you were somebody in tech and you said, "I support Trump," you would be ostracized. People would be shocked by that. When Peter Thiel came out supporting Trump first in 2016, it was extremely shocking to the whole industry. That is not the case now. I think you can start espousing views that were once very unpopular and you won't necessarily get the same shock and scorn that you would have four years ago.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, we can take a few of your questions and comments for our guest tech reporter, Erin Griffith. We'd be especially interested to hear from anyone listening right now who is in the tech industry. How do you feel about how politics are unfolding and the infighting that Erin is talking about in your industry? What do you think are the biggest concerns for big tech when it comes to this election? What's at stake for you? Give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. You can also text us at that number.

We do have some texts coming in. Here's one that's in all caps. Erin, it says, "It's mostly about money and personal wealth." I'm thinking about Silicon Valley and the influence it's already had in this campaign before he was nominated as Donald Trump's running partner and before becoming a US senator in 2022, I know that JD Vance was in the venture capital space. Are you familiar with that background?

Erin Griffith: Yes. He had a pretty short career in terms of venture capital because the funds last 10 years and so you don't really know as a VC if you're any good at it until you get through one fund cycle. He was there for about six years at a couple of different firms. One was a Peter Thiel fund called Mithril. One was called Rise of the Rest that was focused on Midwestern and Rust Belt investments. One was his own firm in Cincinnati, I believe it was called Narya Capital. He made some investments, but we don't have a robust track record.

My understanding is the one company that he was on the board of wound up going bankrupt. This is an indoor farming company. As a VC, what he did there that was probably most consequential was he built out a network of these wealthy billionaires that have boosted his political career and most notably Peter Thiel who gave him a lot of money for his Senate run and introduced him to Trump and has been instrumental in influencing Trump to pick him as a VP candidate.

Kousha Navidar: Do you see any impact on that relationship with Thiel and Vance broadening out to more members of the industry itself, PayPal Mafia supporting Vance? Is that how strong the relationship is there?

Erin Griffith: I do think there was a lot of celebrating from venture capitalists and Silicon Valley leaders who were already supporting Trump when they learned that as someone that they could count as one of their own a former venture capitalist would be the running mate on a major ticket. I don't think that's happened before, and that's pretty exciting to them. [chuckles] I think there was definitely some celebrating there. Of course, now Kamala Harris also has ties to the tech industry being from the Bay Area so I think now there is two sides to that.

Kousha Navidar: You had mentioned Lina Khan before, who is the head of the FTC currently, and I wanted to double back on there. Can you refresh our memories on the lawsuits brought by Khan and how they're really getting under Silicon Valley's skin? You also mentioned VP Kamala Harris. What are the lawsuits that you would bring up with Ms. Khan? What would they signal about a second term for Democrats should VP Harris win?

Erin Griffith: Lina Khan has aggressively gone after the big tech companies for antitrust violations. That has obviously been pretty unpopular among those big tech companies. A lot of the people that we're talking about in this conversation are venture capital investors, and so they deal with startups. One of the biggest ways that startups can return money to their investors is by selling often to a big tech company. Those deals have pretty much dried up under Lina Khan because there's just the assumption that there will be a lawsuit and it will be a long and drawn-out process.

There was a $20 billion deal for a company called Figma that tried to sell to Adobe and it ended up being European regulators that broke up the deal but Lina Khan's group celebrated that and there's been a similar cooling effect on deal-making. She has also gone after Amazon and Microsoft over some of even just the minority investments that they've made in major AI companies. In general, that's not great for deal makers who want to see their companies sell for a big number. That has definitely caused some frustration around the tech industry.

You even saw, I think yesterday or earlier this week, Reid Hoffman was going on TV talking about how he as an expert, he would like to see Kamala Harris replace Lina Khan at the head of the FTC if she is elected. I think that she's probably gotten similar [chuckles] overtures from other donors. It remains to be seen what her stance on it will be, but there's definitely going to be some pressure there.

Kousha Navidar: You had mentioned in your just last response there, the frustration that many Silicon Valley workers and tech execs are all feeling about the political climate right now. We just got a text here. I believe it's from somebody who's in the industry, at least that's how it reads. It says, "They certainly do not represent most of us, and lumping us together is unwelcome." Erin, I'm wondering for you, what's the response of the average tech worker in San Francisco, in Silicon Valley? Do they mostly want to wash their hands off the politics and focus on their jobs or do we see this push towards reclaiming their own values outside of their work?

Erin Griffith: I would say that until Biden stepped down, people on the left were quiet. There wasn't a lot to root for. I've had this conversation over and over with investors and founders who just felt a little bit deflated, particularly after the debate. Then once it became clear that Harris would become the nominee, there's just this huge outpouring of enthusiasm.

That's what you're seeing with the letter that I wrote about this morning. There's actually two letters. One of them has hundreds of signatures from workers. One is focused on VC. You're seeing people get really fired up. They're out there on Twitter fighting back against some of the more right-wing ideas in tech. There is, I think, a lot more enthusiasm for the left that we've seen in recent weeks but up until then, it has been quiet and people have been just a little bit baffled to see the shift that's happening in their industry.

Kousha Navidar: We just got another text I want to read out. It says, "Why don't we call them self-centered oligarchs who only care about themselves?" Then we had another one here. There it is, "More acceptable in Silicon Valley to support Trump rather than less. Before there were excuses. It was a protest vote. Now we know what Trump is willing to do, unexpected."

This is The Brian Lehrer Show. I'm Kousha Navidar. I'm filling in for Brian today. My guest is New York Times reporter, Erin Griffith, reports on tech and Silicon Valley. Listeners, especially listeners who are in the tech industry. What's your opinion on the way that politics is influencing the tech industry right now and vice versa? Give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. We're going to take a quick break. When we get back more of your calls and more on the tech industry. Stay with us.

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This is The Brian Lehrer Show. I'm Kousha Navidar, I'm filling in for Brian today. We are talking about the tech industry and how it is evolving politically in light of the Trump and 2024 election. My guest is New York Times tech reporter, Erin Griffith. Listeners, we're here to take your calls if you have an opinion, especially if you're in the tech industry and you want to share your perspective on how things are unfolding for you politically within the industry, how you are taking the infighting that you see.

Give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Erin, you used this term before the break that I loved. You said libertarian was a good way to describe the folks in the tech industry. The splintering that we see in Silicon Valley right now has a lot of people speculating on why a powerful liberal, sometimes libertarian group has gone so far right. Recently, US Secretary of Transportation, Pete Buttigieg, a Democrat who's stumping for Vice President Harris, weighed in. We've got a clip that I want to share with you. Let's take a listen to what Buttigieg said on Real Time with Bill Maher earlier this month.

Pete Buttigieg: I know there are a lot of folks who say, "What's going on with some of these Silicon Valley folks veering into Trump world with J.D. Vance and backing Trump? What are they thinking? Silicon Valley's supposed to be-- They're supposed to care about climate, they're supposed to be I don't know, pro-science and rational and libertarians." Normally libertarians don't like authoritarians. What's up with that? I think it's actually, we've made it way too complicated. It's super simple. These are very rich men who have decided to back the Republican party that tends to do good things for very rich men.

Kousha Navidar: A lot of texts are coming in saying basically the same thing, that it all comes down to money. Erin, what are your thoughts on what Buttigieg is saying? To what extent is this just all about money?

Erin Griffith: I'm not going to argue with that. First of all, it's a great political message for him to be putting out there on the left. I think it's hard to argue with that. One point that I'll just add to that is that if you look at Marc Andreessen's comments about his political journey and how he switched from having supported almost every Democratic candidate for president over the last couple of decades to now supporting Trump.

He pointed to this journey that people tend to go on in his industry where you make a lot of money, you are very successful in business, you're mostly left alone by regulators, and then you become a philanthropist. He even made the point that then you get a lot of praise for giving a lot of your money away. He was really struck by the fact that philanthropists started getting criticized.

He even pointed out that when Mark Zuckerberg announced his Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, there was some criticism around it and he was just really taken aback by that. Part of it is I think these guys are surprised to find themselves as the villain and bristling at this criticism. I think there's a little bit of almost sensitivity or how dare you about it too. I think that's just worth playing into this, that it's not just money, but it's also their ego a little bit. I found that really striking.

Kousha Navidar: It is not just about money, maybe legacy. Is that fair? Maybe about the ego?

Erin Griffith: Yes.

Kousha Navidar: The point that they're making in the world. Once you make enough money, what else can you do? They start looking at politics. Is that what you're suggesting here?

Erin Griffith: If you just think more broadly, the tech industry has been really villainized in the media and by politicians on both sides [chuckles] over the last few years. Even Trump is calling for breaking up big tech and putting Mark Zuckerberg in jail. I think that kind of villainization is also playing into this a little bit.

I'm not weighing in on whether or not this is deserved or good, bad, whatever but I'm just saying this is what I've observed when I talk to people is that they take it a little bit personally, like, "We're innovators. We're building the future for society." They're a little bit dismayed at the fact that there's this aggressive regulation, there's lawsuits, there's some villainizing going on. I think that does play into it a little bit too.

Kousha Navidar: It makes sense timeline-wise because if you go back 10, 15 years ago, back to 2010, tech was in many circles, seen as a panacea almost. You could fix it if you lathered tech on top of whatever you were talking about.

Erin Griffith: Totally.

Kousha Navidar: I'm sure moving on from there, 10, 15 years later, it's a little bit of a 180 with AI, crypto, all of these things seen as taking away from society. Does that timeline make sense there?

Erin Griffith: Yes. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton had very cozy relationships with the tech industry. It wasn't seen as politically maybe toxic in some ways that it is a little bit now taking tech money. I think partly because of how powerful the tech industry has become. It used to be this quirky thing that happened over on the West Coast and now it is a part of every single industry in our economy. These companies are among the top five most valuable companies in the world are tech companies mostly. The tech industry is extremely powerful. There's been a lot of criticism around the tech industry and a lot of scrutiny and a lot of regulatory scrutiny. All of that is I think part of this.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, we're here with Erin Griffith, who's a tech reporter from The New York Times. We are taking your calls and your texts, 212-433-9692. What do you make of this situation of tech industry executives, Musk, Thiel, et cetera, shifting further over to the right? If you are in the tech industry, give us a call. We're here. We want to hear what you make of the infighting that's happening politically in your industry right now. 212-433-9692. Erin, we just got another good text.

It says, "I work at Google, New York City in AI for social good. I have concerns about more regulation against automatic speech recognition as it could prevent further research and development of products for people with disabilities. Biden says more regulation in AI, but how does that affect accessibility for the disabled community?" Not so much about the- -political race right now, but just looking at that aspect, are there ways in which, for instance, this AI for social good could really be affected based on how the election comes out?

Erin Griffith: Certainly. This person who's writing and I think is probably more of an expert on the details of that than I am, but in general, that I think reflects a fear that AI is potentially going to be regulated before it is even able to have its potential seen. A lot of the advocates that are clamoring against what they see as aggressive regulation are saying, "Listen, the potential here for better outcomes in health care, for better outcomes in education," for the kinds of things that this listener is talking about, is too great to just clamp down on this before we're able to build anything.

Obviously, there's strong arguments on the other side too saying this stuff is really dangerous, and we need to proceed carefully with how we develop it. That is certainly a debate that's playing out in the tech industry and has spilled into politics because I think a lot of people in the political arena see regulating AI as a hot issue that [chuckles] they want to be attached to and out front on.

Kousha Navidar: Let's go to a caller. We've got Peter in Great Neck. Peter, hi, you're here with Erin Griffith.

Peter: Hi, thank you for taking my call. One thing that I think has not really been articulated in this conversation is how important and how much the contribution has been of these tech oligarchs, whatever you want to call them, to the power of the United States in terms of economics, and clout, and let alone the stock market that if you look at what has been powering the stock market, and people's returns in their 401Ks and IRAs, that these people, whether they're coming down on behalf of pro-Trump or anti-Kamala or whatever, have, I think, to some degree really earned the ability to have a voice in the political conversation that's going on, because there is no other country in the United States that has this technology and the power. It's because of the entrepreneurial risk and the financial contributions that have made many of us who are even middle class fairly wealthy because they've employed people, and they built up tremendous businesses.

Kousha Navidar: Peter, thank you so much for that call and that perspective. Erin, Peter there says, earned the ability to have a voice because of their work. What Peter is saying that kind of wealth that they've been able to create for so many others, even outside the tech industry. What do you make of that?

Erin Griffith: That is certainly argument that I think a lot of people in the tech industry have made as well, not necessarily around, "I deserve to have an outsized influence on the election," but more saying this is about the stakes of our country. This is about American innovation. Andreessen Horowitz talks about American dynamism. This is about America staying ahead of the competitors. That's an argument that's often given when it comes down to AI regulation as well. We need to be out front on AI because otherwise China or other adversaries might pull ahead of us. I think that's a valid argument that politicians are willing to listen to.

The innovation engine of America certainly is based in Silicon Valley, and look at all of the amazing things that have come out of it. Some of the people who are moving to the right are saying Biden's policies or if we keep going in the direction that we're going, are going to stifle that. I think there are people on the left who disagree with that and think that the tech industry is plenty powerful and perhaps needs to be reined in, but that's exactly the debate that's playing out right now.

Kousha Navidar: Peter, we want to thank you again for that call and bringing that perspective in. Erin, as we're wrapping up here, I want to bring up some recent Vox reporting, which says, "By most indications, Silicon Valley is still overwhelmingly democratic, but tech elites who are supporting Trump seem to be more comfortable doing so openly and without fear of being ostracized for it," which is something that you brought up recently, some more of our texters here have as well.

I'm wondering for tech leaders being ostracized means plummeting stock prices, or as you wrote, business deals and future jobs falling through. How much of this splintering to the right do you think is emblematic of a bigger shift? Could it be a sign that some of these entrepreneurs and their companies maybe think they're too big to fail, or is it more flash in the pan?

Erin Griffith: I think we've seen versions of this play out over the last couple election cycles. Certainly in 2020, things were very tense around the tech industry, and then they died down and went back to normal. I tend to think that that's going to happen this time around as well, but if Trump is reelected, we could be in for a rocky ride as well because some of his plans could really have a major impact on the tech industry. He's talking about rolling back the IRA, which would hurt a lot of climate tech companies.

As I mentioned before, he's talking about throwing Mark Zuckerberg in jail, he's talking about clamping down on immigration. High skilled immigration is obviously a huge factor for the tech industry, needing to recruit the best talent from all around the world. I think it depends on how this plays out, but I do expect that after the election, things will I hope [chuckles] calm down a little bit and people will go back to getting along.

Kousha Navidar: You mentioned hope, and there's one more text that I want to read here, which comes from one of my favorite characters in any comic book, Uncle Ben, the text says, "With great power comes great responsibility." Thank you so much for that text. Erin, thanks to you. We'll have to leave it there for today, but my guest has been Erin Griffith, New York Times reporter covering tech companies and Silicon Valley. Erin, thanks so much for hopping on with us.

Erin Griffith: Thanks for having me.

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