Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. In this midterm election season and looking forward to 2028, one of the debates within the Democratic Party is whether or not Democratic politicians should be willing to appear on Hasan Piker's Twitch stream or include him as a surrogate at campaign rallies. For those not familiar, Hasan Piker is a 34 year old leftist Twitch streamer touted as a potential Joe Rogan of the left, that is the host of a show that reaches millions of young voters, especially young men who get their politics from podcasts and things like Twitch Streams rather than conventional news media. Like Rogan, Piker's audience of an estimated three million swings young and swings male, seemingly ripe fruit for Democrats looking to win back a swath of party defectors. The problem for the party is that Piker is very outspoken in ways that sometimes get him labeled misogynist, racist, antisemitic and anti-American. In a minute, we'll play a few examples and debate two questions.

Is Hasan Piker a hater or a truth teller? Just strategically, is it smart for Democrats to go on his show or smarter to stay away? Here's a little more background. Early this month, Michigan Senate candidate Abdul El-Sayed, running in the Democratic primary, campaigned with Piker at the University of Michigan in Michigan State. El-Sayed's campaign said the rallies drew more signups than any other event of his campaign. They also drew condemnation. One of his primary opponents, State Senator Mallory McMorrow, compared Piker to far-right white nationalist streamer Nick Fuentes.

Appearing with Piker has become a 2026 litmus test of sorts for Democrats one way or another. Politico, had an article about this recently that named three Democratic presidential hopefuls for 2028 who say they would appear with Piker. They were California Governor Gavin Newsom, California Congressman Ro Khanna, and former Chicago mayor and White House Chief of staff Rahm Emanuel.

They're on the yes, I would appear with Hasan Piker side of that. One likely Democratic presidential candidate who Politico included in the no column is New Jersey Senator Cory Booker. Booker affirmed that position when I asked him about it here last month. Here's that exchange.

Senator Cory Booker: I'd be honest with you, I was not that familiar with this person until my staff came up to me and showed me a lot of the quotes that he said that seemed to me strikingly wrong and problematic to say the least. I have lots of people, as you heard, another caller that I spend my time with and listen to and talk to. I'm a person that's trying to heal and bring people together from strong, different perspectives. From what I've been presented by my staff, it does not. That's not somebody I want to sit down with.

Brian Lehrer: Senator Cory Booker here last month. A lot of the heat around Piker right now comes from the center left Democratic Party affiliated think tank Third Way. Last month, Third Way President Jonathan Cowan, who'll join us in a minute as one of the debaters, co-authored the Wall Street Journal op-ed arguing Democrats are too cozy with Piker.

That was in the headline citing his past comments on Jews on 9/11, on Israel and more. Third Way then sent a public letter calling on El-Sayed, the Michigan candidate, to cancel rallies with him. That didn't happen, but the campaign did get other Democrats to publicly distance from Piker, Cory Booker included. That's some context for that. Piker, for his part, is not stepping away from the controversy. You might say he's leaning into it. Here he is in a Mother Jones interview last week on what all this attention from Third Way and others is doing for him.

Hasan Piker: This is great for me. These guys don't even understand. This is marketing campaign pretty much. You got Fox News and corporate Democrats AIPAC, ADL, Third Way, all of my enemies. All of the people whose politics I find to be repulsive. All these undemocratic forces in this country. All these fascist forces in this country are screaming from the rooftops.

Brian Lehrer: Now that you have that much context, let's hear some of what Piker actually says about the issues and hear our guests debate how to take it and what's good for the Democratic Party and for the country and for the world. Joining me are Jonathan Cowan, co-founder and president of that center left think tank and advocacy group Third Way, and Daniel Denvir, journalist, host of the Jacobin podcast, The Dig, and author of the book All-American Nativism. His piece in the Nation that responds to Third Way and the Hasan Piker question generally is called Hasan Piker threatens the establishment. That's why they want to destroy him. Jonathan, Dan, thanks for engaging. Welcome to WNYC.

Jonathan Cowan: Thanks for having me.

Daniel Denvir: Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Let's jump in with one of the Hasan Piker clips that often gets referenced in these discussions. This exchange from 2019, when he was a guest on Joe Rogan's podcast along with Republican Congressman Dan Crenshaw. The controversial part comes right at the top when Piker says, "America deserved 9/11." His context is what the US had done in other countries.

Hasan Piker: This is so insane. America deserved 9/11, dude. I'm saying it.

Dan Crenshaw: We're there to partner with them. We're not there doing our own thing. We're there partnering, and training, and equipping, and enhancing their capabilities. That's part of what we're doing and the other part is just knowledge. We want to know what's happening.

Hasan Piker: We totally brought it on ourselves, dude. Holy. We did. We did in a video game.

Brian Lehrer: That was in 2019. I might have gotten the context slightly wrong. That might have been Piker just on his stream commenting on Daniel Crenshaw's appearance on Joe Rogan. Either way, Piker has since explained what he meant back in 2019 and that he didn't mean civilians ever deserve to be killed. For example, here he is speaking with Jon Favreau of Pod Save America just last week.

Hasan Piker: That was me responding to Daniel Crenshaw, ironically enough, on the Joe Rogan Experience, where he was making this ridiculous argument that we have to go out and fight these people all the time because they hate us, because they ain't us. I was like, "That's insane. That's not the reason." This was actually echoed by Robert Kagan, one of the godfathers of neoconservatism. Just last week where he came out and was like, yes, actually, we have been messing around in the Middle east for upwards of 60 years and that's precisely the reason why 9/11 happened.

That's precisely the reason why these guys say, "Death to America in Iran." For example. That was exactly the same sentiment that I've addressed a million times over. Of course, in this moment, it was a heated response, an impassioned response. People will consistently used that against me over and over again. Some people hear that and they think, "I understand exactly what's going on here." Some people hear that and go, "How heinous." "Oh, my stars and garters." I am clutching my pearls. I don't even want to learn what this is about. I don't want to understand what he's saying. His name is Hasan. He must be Al-Qaeda. That's fine.

Brian Lehrer: Hasan Piker, last week. Here's one more from Piker last week on YouTube on the notion that he is anti-American, in which he might be heard to say, yes, he considers America to be bad, in that clip. He starts by stating what people say to him.

Hasan Piker: You're just saying that because you hate America. You just hate America. You say America bad. You don't ever explain why, even though I do, right? They never factor in or consider that I want America to be good. That's my advocacy. I want America to be good to its own people, and I want America to be good to other countries.

Brian Lehrer: One more in this set at Yale just last week on the fall of the Soviet Union at the end of the Cold War being horrible for the world because it enhanced US power.

Hasan Piker: The fall of the USSR was one of the greatest catastrophes of the 20th century. Just wait, listen, maybe you'll agree. Not only was there incalculable harm done to every single country under its banner, child prostitution, skyrocketing suicide rates, life expectancy plummeting, but America was no longer contested around the globe. It is precisely because of the end to that multipolarity that we saw accelerated neoliberalism that is devastating every Western nation right now. Unlimited and unchecked greed.

Brian Lehrer: With those clips as context, Jonathan, is any of that a reason, in your opinion at Third Way for Democratic presidential hopefuls and others in the party to not appear with Hasan Piker?

Jonathan Cowan: Yes. Look, Brian, here's our bottom line. Hasan Piker is entitled to whatever views he wants to hold, however heinous, offensive, disgusting, anti-American, bigoted misogynist, et cetera. It's quite well established that he said plenty of things that qualify him, just as I described. The question for Democrats is not whether Hasan Piker should have a show or even if they feel like going on his show and denouncing him. The question is, should Democrats across the board, including people who might run for president, House, Senate, et cetera, should they elevate Piker?

Is that either morally or politically the smart and right thing to do? I think morally it's clearly wrong but as a political matter, Democrats are already seen too often as too extreme. Why would it make sense for Democrats to elevate someone this radical, this extreme, who's this much of a bigot and an anti-American? Why would you elevate them if you're trying to actually win back the White House, defeat the extremists in MAGA and win majorities in the House and the Senate? It's actually insane and no one has presented a shred of evidence that would make it make sense for Democrats to elevate Piker and his views.

Brian Lehrer: Daniel, your reply? In the context of those particular clips which are about views of the United States.

Daniel Denvir: Yes, first a general reply and then to those specific clips. The big picture is that this is a ginned up controversy Third Way and their allies want to shut down Hasan Piker because first and foremost, they want to protect a militaristic far-right Israeli government that's committing genocide in Gaza and waging war against his neighbors alongside the Trump administration. On top of that, they want to defend a democratic establishment against a voter base that has moved dramatically leftward. The voter base of the Democratic Party opposes Third Way's pro oligarchy, pro Israel agenda.

To respond specifically to those points, "The America deserve 9/11" line, that was a stupid thing he said and apologized for. What he was referencing, as he explained in those later clips you played, is that our leadership for years lied to Americans about the historical context of 9/11. Pretending that 9/11 just happened, happened in a vacuum, that the US was just minding its own business. Don't get me wrong, it was a horrific mass murder of American civilians but it did not happen in a vacuum. It would not have happened if the US hadn't been for decades engaging in wars and interventions across the Middle East. Third Way and establishment democrats who are committed to more foreign wars are doing the American people a disservice to them by lying about this history.

In terms of the Soviet Union, it was one of the great catastrophes of the 20th century when it collapsed. First of all, it led to a huge collapse in living standards across the Soviet Union. This is well documented by scholars. A huge drop in life expectancy, the rise of a criminal oligarchy that looted the country. The very crony capitalist order imposed by the west that's played such a key role in making Vladimir Putin the dictator that he is today. In terms of the lack of a counterbalance to US power across the world, that's just common sense.

Look at Southern Africa, where the Soviet Union and Cuba fought against the US and apartheid South Africa, who were attempting to maintain colonialism in Namibia. What happens when there's not a counterforce to US Power in the world? We have the forever wars in the Middle east that again, have played such a role in not only destabilizing the whole world, but here domestically in the US Making Donald Trump President. Donald Trump the MAGA authoritarian fascist project is an enormous danger to everyone in this country and everyone in the world.

Hasan is a rare progressive in an online space where young men are being converted to fascism by people like Andrew Tate and Nick Fuentes. He is on the front line of fighting fascism. When people like Third Way try to gin up fake controversies and make people like Hasan Piker toxic, it's backfiring. All it's doing is raising his profile. Raising the profile of candidates like Abdul El-Sayed.

The problem, because it's good for the left actually these attacks. The problem with what he's doing is that he's giving cover to the rise of actual antisemitic fascists on the far-right like Nick Fuente's, and that's going to be Third Away's true legacy here.

Brian Lehrer: I'll let you go around one more time on that first set of clips and then I'm going to play another set that goes specifically to the charge of antisemitism. Jonathan, you want to reply to anything Daniel was just saying?

Jonathan Cowan: Yes, absolutely. Thank you, Brian. Daniel is wrong about literally every single point. First, let's correct his facts. Third Way was opposed to the Iraq war and we've been vociferously and publicly opposed to this war. I would just say all your listeners take everything Daniel's saying with a pretty big grain of salt because he opened up this session refusing to actually tell the truth about Third Way. Secondly, it is an embarrassment for not just Daniel but the entire left that they're defending this anti-American bigot, someone who's talked about Black people, gay people, Jews.

I could go on down the list in the most offensive, outrageous terms. Let me just cite a couple of quick stats. A recent poll by Echelon Insights found two facts that completely blow away Daniel's case. First, they tested a whole bunch of figures. Trump and Democrats and lots and lots of people. Long list of people. The only three people in their list whose unfavorables, were double their favorables were Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson to right-wing lunatics and Hasan Piker. He is anything but popular in the country. Second is, they asked Democrats and Democratic leaning independents.

"Do you think the party should move more towards the center or move more towards the left or it's great where it is?" 42% said Democrats should move to the center. Only 24% held Daniel's view that it should move more to the left. If they'd said you think they should move to the radical left, that percentage would have been even less. It is strategically obvious that if Democrats want to win over the middle of the country, they cannot elevate figures like Hasan Piker who are so radical and so extreme that they will drive away all of the voters we need to beat MAGA and Trump.

Brian Lehrer: Daniel, your reply.

Daniel Denvir: The DNC found in a still secret autopsy of the 2024 election that was reported by Axios that Kamala Harris and Joe Biden's support for Israel's genocide in Gaza played a substantial role in her losing the election. 63% of Americans now say there was no reason to go to war in Iran. A majority of Americans sympathies, according to a Gallup 2026 poll from earlier this year February. They sympathize with Palestinians over Israeli. Amongst Democrats, that's 65% that sympathize with Palestinians over Israelis compared to 17% that sympathize more with Israelis.

This is not about some abstract call that Democrats should go out there and say, "Hi, I'm left-wing now." It's a call to embrace causes and issues that are popular among Democratic voters. This is support for an end to these forever wars. 84% of Americans say the rich have too much political power. That's 96% of Democrats. These are the sorts of positions that the left is arguing Democrats should take. Those are the sorts of positions that Hasan is popularizing on his stream. These are the sorts of positions that will allow Democrats to not only beat the MAGA fascist authoritarian threat, but actually address its root causes, which is decades of bipartisan disaster created by establishment Democrats alongside Republicans. Establishment Democrats that whatever Third Way's official positions on these matters are have gotten us into forever wars have put us in a situation where we have an oligarchy running this country presiding over historic wealth inequality.

An oligarchy whose political expression is now MAGA authoritarianism and that is exactly what Third Way is arguing for. It's dangerous because we are living in a very dangerous moment right now as a result of it.

Brian Lehrer: Let's go next to the specific charge that Democratic politicians should shun Hasan Piker. Oh, and just for a little more context for those of you just joining us. As I mentioned at the top presidential hopefuls who say they would appear with Hasan Piker include Gavin Newsom and Ro Khanna and Rahm Emanuel. On the no side is Cory Booker, for example. Let's go next to the charge that Democratic politicians should shun Piker because he's not just a critic of Israel, he's antisemitic and supports Hamas. Here's a clip of him from shortly after the October 7th, 2023 attack.

In fairness, this will sound to a lot of people more like he's explaining Hamas than defending them but his language about Israel and whoever he's addressing here is very tough, including expletives that we bleeped out.

Hasan Piker: Do you think the Israeli state was just like peacefully coexisting and then these guys came in with gliders out of nowhere? Don't say off, dude. They didn't deserve it, you idiot. My goal is solutions. Your goal is the continuation of violence. You want way more than 260 people dying. You want every single Palestinian to be executed ruthlessly in the streets so that you can build another theme park on Gaza, you baying pig. You bloodthirsty violent pig dog.

Brian Lehrer: That was from shortly after October 7th. Another example is this from 2024, where he reacts to a newscast on an Israeli court ruling that ultra Orthodox students must be drafted to the military. That report came out in June 2024.

Hasan Piker: The ultra Orthodox Jews leaving Israel, hilarious. Okay? If they serve in the military and then they get their untrained inbred asses shipped into southern Lebanon. Again, very funny.

Brian Lehrer: Calling the ultra Orthodox inbred is what's gotten attention and criticism there and one more in this set.

This is a post on X that Piker penned on January 9th of this year in response to a protest outside a Queen synagogue on where protesters chanted, "Say it loud, say it clear. We support Hamas here." His post on X reads, "As a lesser evil voter, I will once again repeat my harm reductionist credo. Hamas is a thousand times better than the fascist settler colonial apartheid state and the real harm happening here is that another illegal stolen land sale is taking place at another synagogue." From Piker on X. Daniel, you'll get the first question this round. Are those things okay with you?

Should people like Gavin Newsom and Ro Khanna and Rahm Emanuel be saying yes to appearing with Hasan Piker after he seems to say there that Hamas is a thousand times better than Israel.

Daniel Denvir: The smearing of critics of Israel as antisemitic is bad faith. It's wrong and it doesn't work anymore. Allies of Third Way last year tried the same thing against Zohran Mamdani and he handily won the mayoral election. The movement against the genocide in this country, the movement for Palestinian Liberation, is not only not antisemitic, it is substantially Jewish.

My Jewish mother-in-law is listening right now from Brooklyn. The JVP, Jewish Voice for Peace is one of the leading organizations in the pro Palestine movement in this country. It is absurd gaslighting to call the left which believes in universal principles of human life, the equal value of human life everywhere in this world, antisemitic. In terms of Hamas, I strongly oppose violence against civilians everywhere at any point including on October 7th. What this entire discourse serves to obscure is the fact that since October 7th and since the foundation of the State of Israel in 1948 with the Nakba, that is catastrophe that displaced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians permanently from their homes. The vast majority, the overwhelming majority of civilians killed have been Palestinian.

It is right and just to criticize Hamas for killing civilians on October 7th but this demonization, that somehow Hamas is of a different order of magnitude, more evil than the State of Israel, all it seeks to do is obscure the history that scholars have written a lot of very interesting books about of why there's armed resistance in Palestine and why there's always armed resistance under a military occupation. The left is taking a position here that is in line with Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem, the International association of Genocide Scholars.

That Israel has committed genocide in Gaza. I wonder if Jonathan would agree with that assessment or if he will continue to believe that Israel should be able to act as it wishes towards the Palestinians. There is one way to stop the crimes that Israel is committing in the Middle east, and that is a full arms embargo on that country. We cannot give more weapons to a country that is murdering Palestinians and committing murder in Lebanon and dragging the US into another disastrous war in Iran. Everything that Jonathan is arguing here is just an attempt to obscure that debate and that is a debate that the vast majority of Democratic voters agree with the left on, that Palestinian liberation is important that the US should not be complicit in genocide. This antisemitism thing, it is just absurd.

It is offensive and it is backfiring and it is actually weakening the very moral urgency of combating an actual antisemitism that we are seeing emerge from literal Nazis on the far-right like Nick Fuentes, that Jonathan and his buddies are giving cover to. It's really shameful and gross, frankly.

Brian Lehrer: Just so you react to the other instance that I cited, calling the ultra Orthodox inbred, does that strike you as antisemitic?

Daniel Denvir: No, it doesn't strike me as antisemitic. It strikes me as rude and not the language I've used. There's documented evidence of Hasan calling dozens of far-right individuals, most of them Americans, inbred. It's an insult he uses for far-right people. I wouldn't use it but it has nothing to do with Jews and it's incredibly disingenuous, the fake controversy, pretending that it does.

Brian Lehrer: Jonathan, your response?

Jonathan Cowan: Look, it's really embarrassing for Daniel and everyone on the left that once again they keep defending for and apologizing for a laundry list of things that Piker says that are bigoted, anti American, antisemitic, misogynistic, anti-Black. Why is the left defending all of these horrible things that he says and apologize?

Daniel Denvir: Can you respond to anything I said, Jonathan?

Jonathan Cowan: As if-

Daniel Denvir: Anything?

Jonathan Cowan: -as if?

Brian Lehrer: Let him go. You'll get another round each.

Jonathan Cowan: As if you have a legitimate debate about U.S. foreign policy but that debate somehow can't be separated out from this misogynistic, anti-American. It's a pathetic position the left has put themselves in. Secondly is, we got to slow down on these things. If Hasan Piker had described any other group as he said, which is, I'm quoting him, "You are left with a country that is packed to the effing gills with the most inbred, uneducated, ultranaturalist, rabid population." If he said that about any other group in the world or in the United States, we wouldn't be having this conversation. He would be completely shunned. It's very blatantly antisemitic that Daniel says, "Oh, I don't like the language." Except if it were said about any other group, he would openly denounce it.

Brian Lehrer: Just to quickly follow up, you heard what he said about how Piker applies that to people on the right as a general insult that it wasn't particularly singling out Jews.

Jonathan Cowan: I know, but here's the thing. Every single thing that Piker says. Every single thing. Just for example, you started us off with "America deserved 9/11, dude." I didn't hear any of thing an apology for that in which Piker said, that is disgusting, I said it. I should never have said that 3,000 Americans deserve to be killed. That is wrong. I'm ashamed. I will never say anything like that again.

He didn't say anything. He doesn't apologize for it. Again, if someone says one or two things in their career that are profoundly offensive and disgusting, maybe every single week, week in and week out, he says the same thing. He says, I will quote you on this. I will quote him. "If you have these effing millionaire, billionaire wasps sons, at least taking them out of other colleges so they can only do date rape to other millionaire, billionaire failed daughters is like in some respects. From Italian perspective, a little better." Here is a guy who is explaining away and justifying date rape because it occurs between people who are very wealthy who he considers spoiled. He says, I quote, "I don't give an F what Black people care about." I could go on and on and on and on.

This is not a debate about U.S. foreign policy. This is a question of whether Democrats who want to win over the middle of the country should align themselves and elevate a guy who is this anti-American, misogynistic and offensive. That's the only relevant question. Everything else is a smokescreen.

Brian Lehrer: Let me play one more clip, the one you just referenced, something that Hasan Piker said about Black people. In political context and then you'll go around one more time and then we're out of time. This is on his alleged racism or at least dismissing the concerns of Black Americans as just a cover for reactionary politics. This is from 2024.

Hasan Piker: Like it or not, Black people care about the border. Man, shut the up. Black people care about the border. I don't give a what Black people care about. The Democratic Party literally is going to lose even if they don't lose. Move the country to a significantly more right-wing position. Oh, Black people care about this. Black people care about that. Shut the up. That's not how politics works. I hate that. I hate this shield. Okay?

Brian Lehrer: Daniel, I don't give an F what Black people care about is the quote that jumps out from that longer thing. Wait, wait.

Daniel Denvir: It's not what the actual segment's about. The actual segment's about-

Brian Lehrer: Let me just set up that we have a limited amount of time left. Take about a minute to address that and to go back at Jonathan for his last answer than him and we'll wrap it up.

Daniel Denvir: Yes. It's absurd to claim that that clip is Hasan saying he doesn't care what Black people think. The segment is critiquing establishment Democrats for inventing like a monolithic Black person's opinion to argue against the left. That's what's going on there. Hasan has had-- the thing about this and this whole ginned up controversy invented by Third Way and their allies is that it depends upon the idea that the American public and specifically the base of the Democratic Party is stupid but they can listen to that clip and understand that Hasan is in no way saying that.

It's absurd to say that he's saying that Black people's opinions don't matter. It's equally absurd to say that Hasan supports date rape. What he's critiquing there, what he's mocking there because it's a humorous podcast, Twitch Stream. That's why people listen to it. What he's critiquing there, what he's mocking is the WASP Elite, which think back to Brett Kavanaugh and his confirmation is full of the normalization of preppy rich white guys date raping people. He is critiquing that. Again, he is critiquing that in a space, in an online space where actual far-right Nazi misogynists are recruiting young men every day and he is in the trenches fighting that, bringing them over to a humanistic, universalist, anti racist feminist politics. That is what Hasan is doing.

Undermining Hasan is doing nothing but elevating and empowering the far-right. I'm really curious with all of this ginned up controversy that Jonathan is putting out there, if Jonathan thinks that US intervention across the Middle east had anything to do with creating the context that led to the horrific murder of American civilians on 9/11. I'm curious if Jonathan supports an arms embargo on Israel. If he, like the vast majority of Democratic voters, opposes Israel's genocide in Gaza. If Jonathan recognizes that Israel is indeed committing genocide in Gaza. Because I bet the answer is no.

Brian Lehrer: Jonathan, do answer his direct question and say anything else you want in our last minute and that'll be the last word.

Jonathan Cowan: Daniel and his allies continue to try to make this debate about something other than what it is. It's a smokescreen to cover up for the singular question that matters to Democrats, which is should you elevate Hasan Piker and his views? I'd like to actually give the last word to to Hasan Piker, "America is truly the Fourth Reich with nukes." "F this refugee, okay? F this South Vietnamese eming refugee living in America. Why don't you go back and live in effing South Vietnam about property owners. Kill them. Kill those mother effers and murder those mother effers in the street.

Let the streets soak in their effing red capitalist blood, dude." Lastly, between Vance and Newsom, "I'd probably vote third party at that point. It doesn't even matter. Go on, keep defending this guy and apologizing for him and lose all of your moral credibility if that's what you choose to do, but as a matter of strategy for Democrats, aligning with someone this anti-American and this repugnant, misogynistic and bigoted, there is not a shred of evidence that that would be helpful for Democrats for beating the MAGA right and expanding their majority."

Brian Lehrer: Do you give them a genocide of a reply to his direct question?

Jonathan Cowan: What direct question?

Daniel Denvir: Do you acknowledge that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza or do you deny it?

Jonathan Cowan: Do you acknowledge that Hasan Piker is a bigoted, antisemitic misogynist?

Daniel Denvir: All right. There's the answer. You support Israel's genocide. You discredited yourself before the world and the Democratic primary.

Jonathan Cowan: There is your answer which is-

Daniel Denvir: Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, that Salam International genocide scholars and you support the mass murder people with US Weapons. That's really-

[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: That's the end of our time and you talking over each other. We will leave it there without settling the conversation about Hasan Piker's place in the Democratic Party or in relation to Democratic Party politicians. Listeners now hopefully, maybe you're more informed about multiple points of view on that. We thank Daniel Denvir, journalist, host of the Jacobin Podcast, The Dig, and author of the book All-American Nativism is Peace in the Nation. That response to our other guest is called Hasan Piker threatens the Establishment. That's why they want to destroy him.

Jonathan Cowan, who's been our other guest, is co-founder and president of that center left think tank and advocacy group Third Way. His op-ed in the Wall Street Journal said Democrats are too cozy now with Hasan Piker. Thank you both for engaging. We really appreciate the dialogue.

Jonathan Cowan: Thank you, Brian.

Daniel Denvir: Thanks Brian.

 

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