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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Connecticut Senator Chris Murphy is with us. Since the election last November, he's been perhaps the leading voice among Democrats in sounding the alarm about authoritarianism. He's concerned not just about the eventual but the imminent end of democracy as we know it, but he's also been a leading critic of his own party in some significant ways. He joins us now to talk about those things and some breaking issues in the headlines today. Senator, we always appreciate when you come on with us. We counted 13 times since you first started running for the Senate in 2012. Welcome back to WNYC.

Senator Chris Murphy: 13 times. Listen, great to be with you. Thanks for having me back. Always enjoy it.

Brian Lehrer: Lucky 13. You have said, "We have months, not a year, before our democracy is rendered so damaged such that it can't be repaired." That's quite a doomsday scenario. Why only months, in your view, and what is so damaged that it can't be repaired look like?

Senator Chris Murphy: Well, first of all, that's not inevitable. I think Trump is waging a very purposeful, very planned, coordinated assault on our democracy. His goal is to rig the election so that even if his approval ratings are mired in the 30s, the opposition party doesn't have enough strength or oxygen to be able to ever win. That's actually a pretty familiar state of affairs in quasi-democracies.

That's what happens in places like Turkey and Hungary, many other places that have elections. The opposition party maybe wins at the local level but can never really win at the national level because the rules are just tilted towards the regime. He's doing that. Trump is doing that work in a number of ways. He's trying to destroy the ability of the press to tell the true story. He's trying to own as many of the algorithms as he can on social media feeds.

He's trying to destroy the ability of lawyers to represent people's rights. He's trying to stop the opposition party from being able to raise money by going after ActBlue. It's a pretty relentless, coordinated assault. Our work is to put together a relentless, coordinated response. I do think we are starting to figure out how to do that effectively. What Harvard did was really important to stop this attempt to destroy dissent on college campuses.

I think you were seeing the Democratic Party get a little bit better and more forceful and more coordinated in our message. That's why Trump's approval ratings are sinking. I think we absolutely have a path for our democracy to survive. We have to realize that the moment is now to engage in that kind of coordination, that defense of democracy, because we could lose it before November of next year.

Brian Lehrer: What do you see as the role of the press, the nonpartisan press? Anything unique to meet the moment?

Senator Chris Murphy: Well, there's a few things happening here. So much of the press is the new media, which is the platforms owned by X and Meta and TikTok. Trump is engaged in an attempt to co-op those platforms. He already owns X. He is attempting to buy TikTok. There's no doubt that he is going to put an arm on Zuckerberg, who's got several major cases pending before the federal government, and say, "Hey, I'll take care of you on your big lawsuits as long as you tilt the algorithm towards MAGA. That's one big problem.

The other problem is the ways in which a lot of these mainstream media companies are pulling punches. You saw what happened in 60 Minutes with the executive producer resigning because Paramount, the ownership company of 60 Minutes of CBS, was telling them to lay off Trump, because Paramount was trying to sell their business and they needed federal approval. There's real worrying signs. Yes, it's important for independent media, who doesn't have that corporate pressure, to be even more vigorous in telling the true story of what's happening to our democracy and the corruption that is a daily presence inside the White House.

Brian Lehrer: With Harvard, with some of the press, others, law firms, there is some risk in standing up, right?

Senator Chris Murphy: Of course, there's risk. In the long run, there's no other choice. What these law firms are finding is that once you signal to Donald Trump that you're willing to bend the knee, it never, ever ends. They thought they were all so smart. They cut these deals where, technically, they made the argument that they didn't make any real commitments, that the pro bono commitments they made were for things that the law firms would have been working on anyway.

Well, that's not how Trump sees it. Trump sees that once you're under his thumb, you're never getting out. If you're willing to cut a deal with him once, you're willing to do it a second time and a third time. He'll screw you once, then he'll come back and say, "All right, that wasn't good enough. I need you to represent January 6th defendants this time around if you want me to refrain from coming after your clients." There's risk in standing up to him, but there's more risk in cutting a deal.

Brian Lehrer: We see it with Columbia, where they did some things that were seen as capitulation, but the $400 million in grant money did not come back. It looks like he's asking more things of them. Senator Chris Murphy from Connecticut, our guest. You've also been critical of your own party since the November election result. You've been telling Democrats to break up with neoliberal economics, global economics, also to pick bigger fights, but also to be less judgmental. Let me ask you about those last two. Pick bigger fights but also be less judgmental. That sounds almost like a contradiction. How do they go together?

Senator Chris Murphy: [laughs] Well, what I want is for the Democratic Party to have economic populism, confrontational economic populism as our tent pole. That means we would vigorously fight to destroy the concentration of corporate power. We would vigorously fight to make work pay such that one income could, in the foreseeable future, be enough so that a family of four could survive on it, could live a dignified life on it. That means a really big increase in the minimum wage. That means tilting the playing fields towards unions, not creating a level playing field.

That means breaking up these monopolies and unrigging the economy that allows these big monopolies to kill small businesses before they even get started. I'd like to see us be less judgmental of voters if those voters believe in those things. A higher minimum wage, higher wages, less corporate power, but maybe aren't in agreement with Democrats on the host of cultural and social and hot-button issues that we believe in. I, of course, believe in an assault weapons ban. I'm pro-choice and I believe in a full suite of rights for folks regardless of their gender identity or sexual orientation.

I would like to see us build a bigger tent where we have, inside our coalition, people who might disagree with us on guns or on gay rights but agree with us on economic populism. I think that would be good for the country. I think in the long run, that'd be good for our party to permit a little bit more disagreement inside our coalition. That would allow us to reach into Trump's coalition and say, "Hey, you now see that this guy's a fake populist. He was lying to you. Come on in even if you're not with us on every single Democratic tenet."

Brian Lehrer: It is possible that many marginalized people fighting for equality might hear that and think, "Oh, my God, Chris Murphy is saying, in effect, don't make social justice," or DEI if we want to call it that, "so important." Is that how we should hear what you're saying?

Senator Chris Murphy: I think the opposite. The only way that we make any progress is to win elections. We have to win elections if we want to get a majority in the Senate and the House that can codify Roe v. Wade. We need a majority in the House and the Senate. We do win governor's offices if we want to fight back against this agenda to marginalize gay and transgender kids.

It's not ahistorical for the Democratic Party to, at the same time, be a bigger 10 in which inside our party are people who may disagree with us on those issues and still, when we achieve majorities, pursue agendas that advance those causes. There's also a second thing at play here in a world where you have these really balkanized, siloed information ecosystems. I have no chance to convince somebody that they don't have anything to be scared of, of universal background checks.

I don't have a chance to talk to them if they just are sitting over there in the Fox News information bubble. If I bring them into our coalition based upon our common belief in breaking up corporate power, then at least I'm able to have a conversation with them about why they shouldn't be scared of universal background checks or why drag shows are not to blame for all of our social and economic ills in this country. Coalitions allow for conversion as well. I think we should not be so scared of talking to people, at the very least, that don't agree with us on 100% of our issues.

Brian Lehrer: We have about five minutes left with Connecticut Senator Chris Murphy. Let me get your take on some news of right now. I see you gave a Senate floor speech on the plan to take a gift of a new Air Force One from the nation of Qatar, which Trump would then get to keep as his personal property in some way after he leaves office. What's your take?

Senator Chris Murphy: It's just absolutely stunning to me. It's stunning to me that Trump thinks that this is ethical. It's stunning to me that there's even a debate. This is the most corrupt president in the history of the country. The corruption of our foreign policy is so dangerous because these countries are not doing this because they like Donald Trump. These countries are giving Trump cash, giving him planes because they want something in return.

There's been all this attention on the plane because it's really easy to understand. That's, of course, wrong for the President of the United States to accept a $400 million gift. The more dangerous exchange is happening with a neighboring country, the United Arab Emirates, where they didn't give him a $400 million plane. They gave him $2 billion. They literally just gave Donald Trump and his family $2 billion for their crypto business.

The UAE, in exchange, would like us to look the other way and sell them semiconductors that they would likely pass on to China. We haven't been willing to sell them these advanced semiconductors because we know that they have a relationship with China. China would get these semiconductors and be able to leapfrog us in the race for advanced global AI, and yet Trump is probably going to do it. Trump's probably going to do it because he got paid.

The American people are going to be hurt by this quid pro quo, put money in Trump's pocket, and then give national security concessions to these Middle Eastern countries. We have a chance right now for Republicans and Democrats to just stand up and say, "No, this isn't right." This isn't right for a mayor to be bribed. It's not right for a governor to be bribed. It's not okay for the President of the United States to engage in a complicated multibillion-dollar bribery scheme.

Brian Lehrer: Do you see this as part of the authoritarian playbook? We started the conversation by talking about your concerns over authoritarianism. One, because it blurs the line between the US as a country and Trump as a ruler with the plane or, two, because the corruption is so out in the open. I know you said in your floor speech that Trump isn't hiding it like other corrupt officials are. He's not ashamed. He's not doing it in secret, so that strikes me, Senator, as an assertion of being like a monarch.

Senator Chris Murphy: Well, it's certainly true that Trump thinks that if you help Donald Trump, you're helping the United States of America. He said this yesterday about the plane. He said, "No, the Qataris just want to show their appreciation to the United States by shoveling money into my pocket." It is also true that a very practiced tactic of autocrats is to use government funding and favorable government policy to reward loyalty and to punish opposition.

There's a trucking company that made a public announcement about a week ago. They said, "We're going to buy $20 million of Trump meme coin because we understand that that's how business is done with Donald Trump. That'll get us more favorable treatment on the tariffs." The flip side of that is that if you don't pay Donald Trump or you politically oppose Donald Trump, you are going to not get tariff relief.

What he's doing overseas is just a carbon copy of what he's doing domestically. He's using government money and government policy to compel loyalty and to try to crush dissent. It is just true. I talk to a lot of folks who used to support Democratic candidates who say, "I don't know that I'm going to do that anymore. I just don't know that I'm going to do that anymore, because if I do, I'm going to be in the crosshairs. Trump's going to come after my business. I just would rather be left alone." That's exactly how democracies die.

Brian Lehrer: One other thing from the headlines, there's the Trump and the Republican Congress budget proposals. Big spending cuts, including on Medicaid, that's been revealed now in the last day. Big tax cuts, but also more for the military, even as Trump claims to want less US military involvement overseas. I don't know. Maybe that's just to look like the big dog. Are there a few things you're most focused on in the budget talks that you want the public to know about?

Senator Chris Murphy: Well, it's a pretty simple story. It's massive cuts to Medicaid that will throw up to 13 million people off of Medicaid. I think that's the total population of seven or eight American states. It's just the healthcare cataclysm in order to finance a tax cut for the very wealthy. There's some small tax cuts for the middle class, but it's table scraps. It's really table scraps. The story here is throwing people off their health care in order to gobble up enough savings so that they can reward their Mar-a-Lago buddies.

It's wildly unpopular and it's connected, Brian, to the story of Trump's attempt to destroy our democracy because he knows what he's doing legislatively is unpopular. He doesn't want to be held accountable for that, which is why he's, at the same time, trying to destroy the levers of accountability that would traditionally hold him accountable for this kind of thievery, this kind of unpopular policy.

They haven't figured out how to get the votes for this yet because it is really unpopular. People like me are traveling the country doing events in Republican districts to make sure that voters in Republican districts know what's going on and have the ability to object to it. Just like they eventually didn't repeal the Affordable Care Act done, it's possible that they don't get this done either if we organize and/or allowed about how terrible this would be for average Americans.

Brian Lehrer: On the Air Force One and the crypto, does this just enrich and glorify Trump in a way that seems icky, or does it hurt your constituents in Connecticut and other regular Americans?

Senator Chris Murphy: It hurts my constituents in Connecticut because their president isn't fighting for them. Their president is spending all of his time lining his own pockets instead of trying to fix problems that affect them, but it also hurts my constituents because he's trading away favors to these countries. As I said, with the Emiratis, what they want is these advanced semiconductors.

We would love to have a lot of advanced AI jobs in Connecticut. If we sell these semiconductors to UAE and UAE passes them along to China, then China may gobble up the jobs that should rightfully be ours, that should rightfully employ people in Connecticut. There is a direct harm that's being done to Americans when the President gives away policy concessions to countries in the Middle East in exchange not for policy concessions they're giving us, but for cash in his pocket.

Brian Lehrer: Last question, Senator, before you go. Now that we have Pope Leo, the press noticed that back in 2017, when he was a mere cardinal, he retweeted something that you wrote when Congress rejected a gun regulation law after the Las Vegas massacre. You wrote, "Your cowardice to act cannot be whitewashed by thoughts and prayers." Senator, I know the life-and-death issue is what's really important to you. Of course, this has been a core issue since Sandy Hook in Connecticut, but how does it feel to know you were retweeted by the Pope?

Senator Chris Murphy: [laughs] There's a lot of people who are really confused because they're like, "Wait a second, so this guy cares about immigrants. He cares about the poor people. He doesn't like gun violence, but he's also not super great on gay rights, and he's not pro-choice. That's not allowed in American politics." Well, welcome to Catholicism, whether you like it or not. There's a lot of religions out there who are not progressive on social issues like abortion and gay rights but do spend time caring about poor people and are pretty mad about the fact that we allow our kids to be gunned down on the streets. Yes, I was glad to see that. Never happened before. Probably won't ever happen in the future to be retweeted by a pope.

Brian Lehrer: Connecticut Senator Chris Murphy, thanks for your appearance as always on this show as you represent our Connecticut listeners, and thank you for today.

Senator Chris Murphy: Thanks, Brian.

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