[MUSIC - The Brian Lehrer Show Intro]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. We're going to start today with some breaking news for New York and New Jersey that, also, is breaking news for the nation. President Trump, if you haven't heard this yet, said yesterday, he would use the government shutdown to permanently cancel the Gateway Tunnel, already under construction as a major upgrade for Amtrak and the NJ Transit, New Jersey Transit commuter railroad, into and out of Manhattan.

It's not just an upgrade, it's also a long-awaited repair since Superstorm Sandy back in 2012. Here's the President at his news conference yesterday responding to a reporter's question.

President Donald J. Trump: The project in Manhattan, the project in New York, it's billions and billions of dollars that Schumer has worked 20 years to get. It's terminated.

Brian: "Terminated." Schumer responded by saying to the New York Times-- and, of course, Schumer is the Senator from New York and the Senate Minority Leader. Schumer responded by saying, "Gateway is the most important infrastructure project in America, period. Donald Trump trying to kill it again is pure spite and stupidity. It's petty revenge politics that would screw hundreds of thousands of New York and New Jersey commuters, choke off our economy, and kill good-paying jobs," from Chuck Schumer.

Governor Kathy Hochul amplified that. She said, "This is not sticking it to New York. This is the Northeastern Corridor to make sure that our tunnels are safe. They were damaged by Superstorm Sandy." She said, on MSNBC, "If this system of transportation collapses, the Northeastern economy and the economy of the country collapses." It's national as well as local, at least from the way they're arguing it, and also in this respect.

Trump was open at his news conference about using the shutdown to lay off workers and end government services from what he has called "Democrat agencies" and permanently lay off workers, specifically from those.

President Trump: We got the people that we want paid, paid, okay? We want the FBI paid, we want the military paid. We got the people that we want paid. I'll tell you, the Democrats don't talk about this. We're getting rid of programs that we didn't like, that were negotiated in, but we didn't like. We're terminating those programs, and they're going to be terminated on a permanent basis. It's thousands of people and it's billions of dollars. We're getting rid of a lot of things that we never wanted because of the fact that they made this stupid move.

Brian: "Stupid move," being the shutdown, as Trump argues, the President, Yesterday. With me now, Democratic Senator Andy Kim from New Jersey. Senator, thanks for coming on to respond to these developments. Welcome back to WNYC.

Senator Andy Kim: Yes, thanks for having me back on.

Brian: First, on the Gateway Tunnel, this is a $16 billion project already being built. What's your understanding of what the President is actually ordering here?

Senator Kim: Look, he said that he wants to see it terminated. I'm demanding immediate clarification from the White House and the Department of Transportation on exactly what this means, because that would be absolutely catastrophic, not just for New Jersey and New York, but for the entire country. Secretary Duffy, who is a resident of New Jersey, a constituent of mine, told me before how this Gateway project is of national importance. It would cripple our nation's economy if something were to happen that severs trains accessing the Northeast Corridor.

This is something that would generate over 100,000 jobs. It's something that would benefit our economy enormously. Look, it benefits Republicans, Democrats, and Independents across the political spectrum. All that Donald Trump is doing is using mob boss tactics that are just hurting the people of America, and I just think that that is absolutely reckless, and it's something that we have to stand up against.

Brian: That's a serious charge, "Mob boss tactics." What do you mean by that?

Senator Kim: Oh, yes, people see this. He says it. He says the quiet part out loud, which is that he said he's going after Democratic projects and this and that. That's the kind of stuff that's just beyond the pale. We serve the American people, all of us. He's the president of everyone in this country, not just the people who voted for him, but he doesn't think that way. That's where the unhinged aspect of his approach is taking--

I had this one woman; she was an Independent voter in New Jersey. I talked to her just a couple of days ago, and I asked her if she would want to say something to Donald Trump. She said, "Yes, I would tell him and remind him that this is our money. It's the American people's money. It's not Donald Trump's personal bank account. It's not for him to use to settle political scores and to seek political retribution."

I helped pass the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law. That has projects going all over this country, including in areas where the Republican members of Congress voted against the Infrastructure Law. It's meant to help everybody, not just those who are in power and their patronage networks. That's what I find so disgusting, honestly, and I'll use that word, "disgusting," about what the President's doing is he is weaponizing our government. He's politicizing it in a way that is meant to just benefit his supporters. That's the American taxpayer dollars, not his.

Brian: If the President is serious about stopping these projects, the Gateway and Second Avenue Subway, what recourse do you have to fight it?

Senator Kim: Yes. Look, we're looking into the legal actions in terms of being able to step up, but again, what we need right now is that clarity. We need the White House and the Department of Transportation to issue clarity today on this, because we cannot see a stoppage of this work. I talked with a number of construction workers that engage with infrastructure projects like the Gateway Tunnel. I talked to them and asked them, "What would happen if this is something that pauses or halts construction?"

Not only is it going to affect their jobs and livelihoods, but it would be enormously expensive to get this back up and running. If Trump really follows through with what he said, of terminating this, again, that would be absolutely catastrophic. This project cannot move forward without federal support, and that's why we have a contract. We had an agreement between the federal government and New York, New Jersey on this. Donald Trump is clearly breaking that, and that's unfortunately in line with just the broader lawlessness that we continue to see from this administration.

Look, that's why we need a fighter in New Jersey. That's why I hope the American people and the people of New Jersey see that we can't have someone like Jack Ciattarelli as our next governor. We need a governor like Mikie Sherrill that's actually going to stand up for New Jersey, and not just do what Jack does, which is just kiss up to Trump, say that he'd give him an A-rating, says he doesn't have anything that comes to mind that he disagrees with Trump on.

This is a clear delineation of what New Jersey needs going forward, and I think Trump just basically ended Jack Ciattarelli's chances of being the next Governor of New Jersey.

Brian: Oh, you brought the governor's race into this. I read in The New York Times that Ciattarelli posted on social media that he opposes this move by the President. He has said, in the past, he gives him an A, but he's opposing this. How do you make this a Caittarelli issue?

Senator Kim: Oh, look, Ciattarelli said the other day that he's not hearing people talking about the Gateway Tunnel in New Jersey. Yes, look, after a lot of pressure, he finally said that he disagrees with the President, but he did it only in the context of his own job. He said, "Oh, we need someone in the Governor's Office that can work with President Trump."

Again, Jack Ciattarelli is only thinking about this in terms of himself, and that's because he's been running for governor longer than my kids have been alive. He's not somebody that's actually thinking about the many, many tens of thousands of people that will be affected right out of the gate, as well as the economic consequences of this. The fact that he didn't come out and just flatly condemn what this action is, and instead, is just trying to couch it in terms of his own job prospects, I actually found that to be even more offensive.

Brian: I want to get back to the national context, but one more on the Ciattarelli-Sherrill context. Is he wrong when he says New Jersey would be-- I guess, now I'm using my words, but his implications seem to be that, "Yes, if New Jersey has a Democratic governor, the way Trump is acting with these partisan cuts, New Jersey is going to get punished. If they've got a Republican governor, he will work with the Trump Administration, and Trump won't have that political incentive to hurt New Jersey. That would be a reason to vote for him." That's what Ciattarelli is arguing.

Senator Kim: No, absolutely not. First of all, Ciattarelli said he wouldn't sue the federal government, wouldn't sue the Trump Administration if they did things that hurt us. Look, we've already seen the-- [crosstalk]

Brian: The state government wouldn't sue? Go ahead.

Senator Kim: Look, these are things that we've already seen. What Jack Ciattarelli will do will just give ICE officers free rein across New Jersey, then. He'd allow Trump to just be able to do anything he wants. If he wants to send the National Guard into Newark or Camden or Trenton, he's just going to give him free rein to do that. That's the problem; he's not working with Trump, he's working for Trump. He is somebody that is just trying to do whatever it takes to be able to be the governor and is willing to sell his soul down the road in that direction. That has no integrity. I can't stand this kind of weather-vane politics of Jack Ciattarelli.

Brian: Back to the national context, the President mentioned the selective layoffs in the clip we played. A court ruling yesterday said he cannot permanently lay off federal workers. The Federal Judge in Illinois who presided in this case ruled that using the temporary lapse in government funding to cut people's jobs permanently is, "Both illegal and in excess of authority and as arbitrary and capricious," from the bench. The administration will appeal that, I imagine. Since I'm sure you agree with the court, why would it be illegal?

Why can't the President decide to reduce the size of agencies that are Executive Branch agencies, Education Departments, Centers for Disease Control, Housing and Urban Development? These are among those being hit with a lot of layoffs.

Senator Kim: Because the Constitution says that the President needs to follow the laws of the United States, and the laws of the United States are set forward by the Legislature, by Congress. We set the National Budget, we set the priorities, we say what that funding needs to go to; the Executive Branch fulfills that. Doesn't have the ability to override Congress. When we say, "Yes, we want to have funding for the Department of Education, for kids with disabilities, IDEA funding," Donald Trump does not have the ability to do what he just did, which is try to fire all these workers at the Department of Education that are trying to help with special education to help with kids with disabilities.

That's literally who he's firing right now. When we see him putting out pronouncements, again, trying to gut workers from the Office of Civil Rights at the Department of Education, well, look, Congress has said, "We think that this is important that we follow through on civil rights and education." This is how we fight back against antisemitism, against Islamophobia, against so many other challenges that we see that many Americans across the political spectrum care about.

He does not have the ability to fire these workers that are fulfilling what Congress has set forward in our budget, in our approach going forward. Yes, we're in a shutdown, but this is something that we're working to resolve. It does not give a permanent ability for Donald Trump to say that this is not what Congress is putting this money towards. This is just absolutely wrong and illegal by Donald Trump.

Brian: It would be good for everyone if the government shutdown ends. Democrats are pegging it to extending the subsidies for health insurance policies bought under the Affordable Care Act, or "Obamacare," marketplaces. Those purchases are being made very shortly this time of year, for 2026, and many Americans would get socked with higher premium costs that might make them not able to afford health insurance at all.

Here's Republican Congressman from New York, Mike Lawler, proposing a one-year extension of the subsidies, a full year, to get the government open again, and have another full year to work out how to fix Obamacare costs more broadly. Here he is on Morning Edition.

Congressman Michael Vincent Lawler: If you want to solve an issue like the Obamacare subsidies that Democrats put in place for four years and were slated to expire at the end of this year-- they knew that they were slated to expire, they passed the bill, and so I have already signed on to legislation to extend the subsidies by a year. That was part of my point to Hakeem Jeffries. "If you're serious about this, if this is the issue you claim it is, then why won't you sign on to this bill with me?"

Brian: So far, Hakeem Jeffries, the Democratic Leader in the House, is rejecting that proposal. So is his own leader, Republican Mike Johnson, the Speaker. What's your reaction, Senator? Might this be a good compromise for 2026, and then you'll see which party wins control in the midterm elections?

Senator Kim: Look, I know it's very convenient for Representative Lawler and others to say, "We'll just kick this can down the road just enough that it gets us past the midterm elections," and the things that they're worried about the most, but look, that's not going to help lower costs. That's not going to stabilize our healthcare system right now if they just see this as a short-term punt.

This is something where we need to address, and all I'm asking from Representative Lawler and others is that they put the same amount of energy into helping make healthcare affordable for Americans that need it than they did lowering taxes for billionaires earlier this year, when it came to their Reconciliation Bill. That's all we're asking for, is just with the intensity and the urgency with which they had extended these massive tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans, just put some of that energy into trying to help lower costs for families that need it.

Brian: Last question, and back to the Gateway Tunnel. This has been a bipartisan project, for the most part, with bipartisan support. Democrats and Republicans in New Jersey want this. Democrats and Republicans in New York have wanted this. Do you have the solidarity of your New Jersey colleagues? I know both Senators are Democrats, but have you checked with those members of the House who are Republicans from New Jersey? Are they standing up and objecting to the prospect of the President permanently terminating that project?

Senator Kim: No. No, they're not. Again, this is because they're all terrified of Donald Trump and the idea that Donald Trump, in one tweet, could end their political careers. It's the same problem with Jack Ciattarelli. Yes, we've seen three House Republicans from New Jersey failing to step up and say, just with the urgency that's needed, that this is something that everyone in New Jersey is united against in terms of what Donald Trump's saying, in terms of terminating the Gateway Tunnel project. I hope that they can find the political courage needed and recognize that they serve the people of their Congressional districts, not Donald Trump.

Brian: All right, the breaking news with local to New York and New Jersey and national implications, President Trump, saying yesterday, that he is not suspending, but terminating the Gateway Tunnel project, and saying those other things about layoffs of federal workers, not just furloughs, and the court weighing in on that. Senator Andy Kim from New Jersey, thank you very much.

Senator Kim: Thanks for having me.

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