Brigid Bergin: Well, we may have to hitch a ride like the Ramones are singing to Rockaway Beach if you want to get there. I'm Brigid Bergin filling in for Brian Lehrer. Let's talk about that months-long shutdown of the subway service to The Rockaways due to start January 15th. Full disclosure, if you can't tell already, this is a personal issue for me. As a resident of the peninsula, how am I going to get to work exactly? Evan Simko-Bednarski, transit reporter at the New York Daily News, joins me now with more information about the shutdown, maybe some suggestions for how I can cope with this, and some other transit news. Evan, welcome back to WNYC.

Evan Simko-Bednarski: Thank you, Brigid. Good to be here.

Brigid Bergin: Okay, so January 17th, excuse me, the A train will shut down. That date is actually pretty much burned in my brain. It's going to terminate at Howard Beach and JFK Airport. This lasts through when exactly?

Evan Simko-Bednarski: This is supposed to run until about May 16th. There's some padding built in there, but they're billing it as a 17-week shutdown.

Brigid Bergin: A 17-week shutdown. Listeners, especially those of us who use the subway past JFK, have you made your alternative plans for what you're going to do? How inconvenient is this shutdown going to be for you? Anybody, a G-train rider, who can share what it was like to navigate your summer shutdown? Maybe you can give us A-train riders a dose of optimism or maybe just some plain realism.

For all my Broad Channel and Rockaway Peninsula residents, what are you going to do? People have to leave the peninsula for work, in school. How are you going to get where you need to go? Do you need any more information from my guest, Daily News transit reporter Evan Simko-Bednarski? Rockaway residents or people who work or travel there especially, give us a call. Tell us what you're thinking, how you're feeling, how you're coping.

212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. You can call. You can text. All the calls must be okay to be on air. I know people have strong feelings about this issue. Evan, this is work connected to Superstorm Sandy as I understand it, but that was 12 years ago. Is this for specific repairs that still haven't been done, which makes me nervous, or more to avoid damage from future superstorms or hurricanes?

Evan Simko-Bednarski: It's a little bit of both. Most of the work that was done in the immediate aftermath of the massive shutdown after Sandy, that work is still holding. What this is, it's two parts. It's a massive repair to two pieces of infrastructure that bring the train over the bay. Hammels Wye, which is the junction at the top of the peninsula, and the South Channel Bridge. Part and parcel to that, there is a major resiliency effort going on to shore up the trestles on the peninsula, to shore up a lot of the viaduct that comes over Jamaica Bay.

That's not what's requiring the shutdown. What's requiring the shutdown is the work to the Hammels Wye. It needs to basically be taken down completely and rebuilt. Steel, concrete, and you can't pin that damage on any one thing. It's an old section of track. It's been deteriorating in the salt air and saltwater for a very long time. Then also, the South Channel Bridge. I am also an A-train rider. I live in Brooklyn. It's not uncommon to see alerts saying the train is delayed because the bridge is broken.

Brigid Bergin: Yes, and stuck.

Evan Simko-Bednarski: Yes, yes, and part of this project is going to be a massive overhaul of that bridge. A gut renovation is what they call it, pulling out all of the mechanicals and electronics and rebuilding them. The problem is, since it's a navigable passage of water, in order to take the bridge out of service, they need to leave it open. That means no trains.

Brigid Bergin: We already have a caller from Rockaway Beach. If she's ready, let's go to Dana in Rockaway Beach. Dana, you're on WNYC.

Dana: Hi. Yes, just kind of a feisty opinion, but I think that it's kind of a slap in the face to the residents of Rockaway. We have one train that can get us into Queens, where there are multiple other trains. Those of us who do have cars are now going to be told that if we need to go into Manhattan, have to be charged congestion pricing. There's not a lot of options here. It just seems like you're only harming the residents. They said that this was because of Sandy and they're fixing all of the structure. Sandy was 12 years ago. [chuckles] This is insane.

Brigid Bergin: Dana, thanks. I think there are probably some other residents who are feeling what you're feeling. I should have asked her what her plan is. Do we still have Dana? Dana, what is going to be your transit option going forward?

Dana: Very luckily, I do have a car and will be able to get to places by driving. It is going to take me much longer and cost me more money. At the end of the day, what are my options?

Brigid Bergin: Well, thank you for saying that, Dana, because you set up my next question. I can tell Evan is smiling because he knows what our options are. Frankly, there are some aside from hitching a ride or potentially driving into the city. Evan, lay it out for us. If we need to get from the peninsula to places beyond, to the mainland, what do we do? How do we do it?

Evan Simko-Bednarski: The MTA set up a couple of things. The shuttle train is going to be running the length of the peninsula and it's going to be free. Folks in Rockaway Park can get to Far Rockaway and vice versa, all on the shuttle train. There are going to be two shuttle buses, again, free, setup. One is going to be going from the middle of the peninsula, Beach 90th and Beach 67th, up to Howard Beach, where folks can then get on the A train from there.

Then another free shuttle bus going from Far Rockaway again to Howard Beach, where folks can get on the A train. In addition, the MTA is charging folks $2.75 a ride to get on the Long Island Rail Road at Far Rockaway to head into the city, which is cheaper than a subway fare. I think what a lot of residents have been saying is that none of these are one-seat rides. The transit wonk community, of which I suppose I'm a member, talks a lot about a one-seat ride, right?

You sit down in your chair, on your train, on your bus, whatever. When you get up, you are where you were intending to go. None of these options are going to provide folks with a one-seat ride into the city. There are express buses that head from either side of the peninsula into Manhattan as a one-seat ride. Those are $7. There is no plan currently to discount that and also no plan to supplement the number of bus. The MTA has been asked about that by electeds, by locals at various town halls. The answer is that they simply don't have enough buses to be able to increase the express bus service into the city from The Rockaways.

Brigid Bergin: Wow. Because it's important to note that those express buses run weekdays during rush hour that they stop running by about 8:00 AM in the morning and then they don't run again from Manhattan back to the peninsula until 4:00 or 5:00 PM in the evening. They're not necessarily an option for a student per se or a shift worker or someone who's going in for a midday or overnight shift because they don't go from the peninsula to Manhattan, except for in the morning. Okay. Evan, I'm sure you covered the G-train shutdown over the summer. Are these options that are being put out there similar to what was being offered to those riders? How would you describe some of the differences in this particular scenario?

Evan Simko-Bednarski: Well, I think your caller was absolutely right. This is unique. This is how The Rockaways are connected to the rest of the city. This severs the link to the transit system. The G train, as wonderfully functional as it is for those of us who live in Brooklyn or Queens, you have other options. Those options might involve having to take two trains through Manhattan to get somewhere, but it's part of a richer tapestry of transit options.

There were shuttle buses. Shuttle buses are the go-to for when you have to take a piece of the system out of service. There were free shuttle buses with the G train. There were some issues with that in terms of availability as well. The reliance on shuttle buses is also, I think, showing some of the cracks in the bus maintenance system at the MTA. Yes, this is somewhat unique because of the isolated nature of The Rockaways.

Brigid Bergin: Listeners, we want to hear from you, particularly Rockaway residents, people who work or travel there, coming up with your alternative plans, or G-train riders or other riders on lines that got shut down for major repairs that had to go through some of these alternate transit options. We'd love to hear what your experience was. Give us hope. Give us optimism. Give us realism. The number is 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692.

We are getting several text messages. A listener writes, "G-train rider advice. Don't be surprised if you're A train. Total shutdown becomes nights and weekends without prior notice." Another listener writes, "I survived the R-train shutdown. It was hell." [chuckles] That's not optimism. "Though I lived in Gowanus and the option of the F train, I've never had to live through a full shutdown with replacement buses."

You have my utmost sympathy. Maybe you can work from home. [laughs] Thank you, listener. I appreciate your support. Several other listeners are talking about one of what I would consider my favorite modes of transportation, relatively recent innovation. The ferry to Rockaway. Has there been any indication that there may be increased ferry service? Because I know usually in the winter, they reduce ferry service between Rockaway and Manhattan.

Evan Simko-Bednarski: Yes. Now, the ferry service, which is run through a private contract with the Economic Development Corporation of the city, which is a public-private partnership that does business with the city as an entity. It's not part of the MTA in any way, shape, or form. They have been saying that they have the capacity in the current service plan to be able to carry folks.

Now, of course, the ferry goes to Wall Street in Manhattan. If you're going to downtown, that might work. If you're trying to get to Midtown, then, again, that is not a one-seat ride by any stretch of the imagination. The mayor's office has said and MTA has said that they're in conversation with the mayor's office about making modifications to the ferry schedule if need be. As of now, New York City Ferry is saying, "We have the capacity."

Brigid Bergin: They have the capacity. Well, let's talk about how many people we're actually talking about here because we know that we have thousands, millions of listeners who figure out all different ways to get around the city. It's not easy for anyone. We just happen to be talking about this one particular issue because it is a major project that is not just shutting down transit on nights and weekends, but for every single day of the week at all hours of the day from January to May. Now, there won't be beachgoers necessarily who are going to be impacted, maybe some of you surfers. Evan, how many people are riding this A train past JFK on any given weekday?

Evan Simko-Bednarski: The MTA estimates about 9,000 people on a given weekday are using this portion of the Rockaway Line.

Brigid Bergin: Oh wow, so it's not insignificant, but there are certainly lines with much larger ridership. I know that former governor, possible future mayoral candidate Andrew Cuomo weighed in on this shutdown situation, suggesting that the full-blown shutdown could somehow be avoided. What's been the response from the MTA?

Evan Simko-Bednarski: The former governor is referencing, of course, the L-train shutdown. There was, in 2019, a lot of talk that the L train was going have to be taken permanently out of service for a time in order-- forgive me, not permanently, but taken out of service for a time in order to repair Hurricane Sandy damage. That ended up not coming to pass. What the MTA has said is that this is a fundamentally different set of problems. The L-train tunnel, the saltwater incursion had damaged a lot of the electrical lines.

They were tucked away in a section of the tunnel that was going to need to be destroyed in order to replace them. An 11th-hour fixed said, "Let's leave those lines in place. Let's abandon them and just tack new lines on the side of the tunnel." It wasn't a structural issue. What the MTA says is that this here is fundamentally a structural issue. We need to take down the steel and concrete trestle at Hammels Wye and we need to gut this bridge, which necessitates it being open. The MTA says, "There's not really a fancy engineering fix around that. That's just gravity."

Brigid Bergin: Just to be clear, when we're talking structural issue, we're talking safety issue. We're talking the health and safety of those riders, which is very serious. I want to go to a listener, not from Rockaway but a listener with some suggestion for people trying to get around, Charles on the Upper West Side. Charles, thanks for calling.

Charles: Thank you very much. As an artist, I have some stones in Howard Beach in the park. Going to The Rockaways, there's a great beach that they call it the Southampton Beach because it's Fort Tilden. It used to be like bunkers for bombs in the old days. There's a bus that goes from Brooklyn College. There's a left stop on, I guess, the 2 and the 3. You could take that bridge that goes to Fort Tilden, which goes right past Floyd Bennett Airfield. If you're in The Rockaways, you can just take a bus over there, connect to that bus, and get the 2 and a 3 in Brooklyn because it's all on The Rockaways if you know what I'm saying.

Brigid Bergin: We know what you're saying, Charles, and we appreciate that suggestion. Might be the 2 and the 5 that you meant. Is that right, Evan?

Evan Simko-Bednarski: Yes.

Brigid Bergin: Okay, but we really appreciate that. Honestly, we appreciate all the creative solutions. It's part of how we get around out there. I have another very funny text I want to share with you, Evan. The listener describes it as an unpopular opinion. The person writes, "My unpopular opinion was that I liked the G-train shutdown. The shuttles were free, ran more often than the train, and were often lined up and ready to go, so you could sit until it started moving." What do you think? Maybe there's a positive spin to this potential. The repair work has to happen. Maybe there's a way to envision it as being a good thing.

Evan Simko-Bednarski: I'm as guilty as anyone of enjoying a free shuttle bus.

Brigid Bergin: [laughs]

Evan Simko-Bednarski: Especially in my corner of Brooklyn, it is often not all that slow and very functional. I think, though, that text gets at something important, which is that this work is, by almost all accounts, pretty necessary. None of the elected officials who are calling on more bus service, none of the community members who are at any of these town halls seem to be saying, "We don't think this work needs to be done."

You're talking about a part of the system, a part of the city that is just sticking out there as you know better than most and got pummeled by Sandy, can very easily end up in that situation again. Climate resiliency has been a major focus for the MTA in its future planning for the next 10, 20 years or so. This is one of the most vulnerable sections of the whole line.

Again, a lot of that shoring-up work, that resiliency work is not what's causing this shutdown. Work has already begun and will continue during the course of the shutdown to fix and shore up the concrete trestles on the Rockaway Peninsula itself, to shore up just off Howard Beach, where the trestle begins out into the bay. There's a lot of resiliency work that is necessary here and no one seems to be really contesting that.

Brigid Bergin: Sure. Just for listeners who don't have the visual of what we're talking about here, this is an elevated train, the trestles that Evan's talking about, or because this is a train that runs above ground. It's actually probably one of the most beautiful subway rides you can take in New York City. Yes, I am biased, but you ride over Jamaica Bay at a certain point. It is really one of the most stunning rides you can take.

I want to read a couple of more texts and then pivot a little bit to a couple of other transit topics. Mandy in Rockaway Beach wrote a text. She says she lives off the shuttle train. "I don't own a car. I live in New York City, so I don't have to own a car. My plan is to take the Q53 or Q52. It can take riders directly to all A trains, not just a train coming from JFK, so more frequently. However, it doesn't run often late at night, just once an hour. Any plans to up these bus trips as part of this shutdown?" Evan?

Evan Simko-Bednarski: Every town hall has had some version of this question, which I think is a very good one. The MTA has said repeatedly, they just don't have the buses to up service beyond the free shuttle buses. Now, whether that's something that can be worked on, it remains to be seen. We've got time before this goes into effect. The discount on the LIRR was something that the transit press corps was asking about a couple of weeks before it was announced. This is very much a fluid process. Yes, the official line, as of last week at least, was, "We don't really have enough buses to up service."

Brigid Bergin: Wow. Well, in a similar vein, in terms of how to make things a little bit more to ease the burden on some of these residents, another listener texts, "Do we have the technology to short-term exempt Rockaway residents from congestion pricing?" I'm sure you've heard that question before as well, Evan.

Evan Simko-Bednarski: Yes, exemptions and congestion pricing are the hot-button issue du jour. As for the technology, I can't say. I imagine it would require having to associate folks' license plates with their registered address, but nobody has brought up any such exemption. I don't know that that would be something that the MTA would take on.

Brigid Bergin: I want to spend a couple of more minutes just on other transit news out of Queens and other places. The 7 Line this week was described as the epicenter of subway surfing at a city council hearing. Why is that?

Evan Simko-Bednarski: Well, subway surfing tends to happen mostly on the elevated lines. You mentioned the view on the Rockaway Line, which I know it well. It's beautiful. There have been a couple of subway-surfing incidents on the Rockaway Line as well. Part of the thrill-seeking, I imagine, is the view. It's a horrible thing. I'm speaking here both as a reporter and a father of two children who love the train. The other thing that the NYPD has been doing is using that to their advantage and using drones and things of that nature to try to spot folks who are on trains. The danger is twofold. The danger is falling off the train, but the danger is also once the train goes underground, which most elevated lines do, the clearance is not existent.

Brigid Bergin: It's terrifying. It is a transit issue. It's a transit-adjacent issue. It's a public safety issue. Is there any other sense of what is prompting-- We know it's a social media phenomenon, but are there substances involved in some of these kids? We're talking mostly about teenagers who have died from these incidents. As you mentioned, there was a suspected subway-surfing accident in Rockaways in July. There's this campaign, "Ride Inside, Stay Alive," that you hear in subway stations. Do you have a sense that people are getting to the root of what's going on here yet?

Evan Simko-Bednarski: It's hard to say because it's a multifaceted issue. The MTA is certainly focusing on the social media aspect of it. You ask them and they say they've taken down or gotten taken down more than 10,000 pro-subway-surfing posts. Folks on TikTok or wherever showing off the view that they have from atop a 7 train. It really does seem to be-- I don't know if you want to call it a copycat issue or that folks see this and think that it's doable, but that seems to be the driving force.

It's hard to say what has worked and what hasn't. Part of thrill-seeking too, I imagine, is the danger. Some of the folks who talk to me on my day-to-day are track workers. The folks who encounter the people who are hit by trains. It's not just subway surfing. There's many causes of what they call 12-9s, people getting hit by trains on the tracks, and it is one of the most horrific ways to go.

Brigid Bergin: Just last question before we let you go. We have to go back to congestion pricing for just a moment. The new lower-cost congestion pricing plan got adopted by the MTA board on Monday. What's next? We have a start date for January, but what are some of the roadblocks, pun intended, or other things that could come in the way of this program really getting off the ground next year?

Evan Simko-Bednarski: What has to happen now that it's been approved by the MTA is there's a public education period that's begun. It's just letting folks know what the toll is going to be. The federal, city, and state departments of transportation all need to sign off with the MTA on an agreement called the VPPP. It basically allows the tolls to be used for something other than road upkeep. Then the Federal Highway Administration, which is a subset of the DOT, needs to look at this plan and say, "Yes, this looks in line with what we approved when we approved the larger environmental assessment."

Those are both expected to not take too long. Once that happens, the state is out of the woods in terms of the Feds being able to very easily kill the program by holding back some sort of approval. The legal challenges are still live. New Jersey's lawsuit being key amongst them. It remains to be seen how that plays out over the next couple of weeks. Yes, it's on track to be in place on January 5th.

Brigid Bergin: Just before we let you go, Evan, we have a caller who I want to bring in, Alex in Long Island City, who I think can give us some insight into this subway-surfing phenomenon we were just talking about. Alex, thanks so much for calling.

Alex: Sure. Hi, everyone. The reason I'm calling is I work across the street from LaGuardia Community College and we have the 7 train. This surfing has been going on forever. It's only now that they're bringing it to the public and to the mayor and so on. It's like every day, we hear my friends come to work, someone was surfing. Also, we have a couple of high schools by us. Every day at lunch, they are attacking each other and they're fighting. They all come from good families and I really think that some of this has to do--

Brigid Bergin: Alex, thanks for that. I thought that she was going to give us some different perspective on subway surfing. I think it is interesting to know that this is a phenomenon that has been going on for a while. Perhaps we're just, unfortunately, hearing about it more because kids are getting killed, which is a really tragic end to that. I want to thank my guest, Evan Simko-Bednarski, transit reporter at the New York Daily News, for joining me. I know that you're another person I can turn to as I try to figure out and navigate my Rockaway commute between now and next May.

Evan Simko-Bednarski: Happy to help.

[laughter]

Brigid Bergin: Thank you so much. I'm Brigid Bergin from the WNYC and Gothamist newsroom filling in for Brian Lehrer.

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