Title: Reporters Ask the Mayor: Indictment Fallout Continues

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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. On today's show, we'll do our latest 100 Years of 100 Things segment. It's thing number 28, 100 years of making a living without a college degree. We'll look at economic history, take your oral history calls about your parents or grandparents, and talk about how the mismatches and even biases today between people's skills and general education levels and what employers are looking for.

Also today, excerpts from this week's debate in the Andy Kim-Curtis Bashaw US Senate race in New Jersey, a high-stakes race with control of the Senate at stake, of course, and local to us. We'll sample from a new documentary, this should be really fun, about the time when John Lennon and Yoko Ono did a week as talk show hosts. We begin with our lead Eric Adams reporter Elizabeth Kim as usual on Wednesdays after the mayor's weekly Tuesday news conferences.

It came this week amid a continuing exodus of the mayor's very top appointees as the fallout from his indictment on corruption and defrauding the taxpayers charges. Hey, Liz, happy Wednesday.

Elizabeth Kim: Happy Wednesday, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: You want to set the scene for us a little before we play some clips of the mayor? You wrote to us, "Another day, another wave of departures," and you're calling this the post-Banks era. David Banks, Phil Banks, Terrence Banks, all brothers, one of them the schools chancellor, one the mayor's head of public safety. Plus, as of yesterday, Chancellor Banks's partner and fiance, Sheena Wright, who was the first deputy mayor, they've all left. How dramatic is this wave of departures by people named Banks and people related to them?

Elizabeth Kim: I think that the departure of the Banks family is especially significant simply because of their decades-long relationship with the mayor. The mayor and Phil Banks go back to their days in the NYPD together. From his relationship with Phil, he also knows his younger brother, David Banks, who became the schools chancellor. David's longtime partner now wife is Sheena Wright, and she is the first deputy mayor.

She was very important to the mayor early on when he was transitioning into office. She was the head of his transition team. This is a family that is considered among the closest advisors to the mayor. They have not been without controversy. It mainly stems from Phil Banks, because Phil Banks was famously the unindicted co-conspirator in a police bribery scandal about a decade ago. He was always the center of controversy, and I think there was always a feeling that it was problematic for the mayor to have these three people who are members of a family working together so closely because conflicts of interest can arise.

You can see how having a first deputy mayor and then she's married to the schools chancellor, and then you have the deputy mayor of public safety as his brother, it can cause problems. I think throughout this, many people thought that this would pose a problem for the mayor. Especially when it comes to the different power centers and people jockeying to get to the mayor and try to advise him on certain things.

They were always talked about as the family, "But the family says this," but now they're gone. This is really a new era for the mayor where he doesn't have this close cadre of advisors to lean on anymore.

Brian Lehrer: The Banks family and others departing the administration. Here's a question to the mayor yesterday from reporter Ethan Stark-Miller AM New York and the mayor's response.

Ethan Stark-Miller: With this restructuring and with the recent resignations, I know you said it's not that many compared to 300,000, but eight or so in a week is a lot, and these are all senior officials, are you saying none of this is connected to your indictment and the federal investigation surrounding the administration? Because it seems like that's the tone, that this is all just the usual shuffle that happens after a few years.

Eric Adams: That's exactly what I'm saying. Not one person that has decided to do something else with their life said, "Eric, it's because so much is going on." Not one person. Not one person.

Brian Lehrer: Liz, why did you choose that clip?

Elizabeth Kim: This was the mayor's second press conference at City Hall since he's been indicted. I think there was still a lot of anticipation of what the tone would be following the first one, which was at times somewhat tense. I think what was interesting about yesterday's press conference is the posture that the mayor is assuming towards the investigation, towards how he's able to govern, and a lot of it defies belief. That was one example of a question and the way the mayor handled it, that I think all of us were inside shaking our heads.

It just stretches plausibility for the mayor to claim that none of these resignations have anything to do with the investigations because we do know that many of these individuals, including those three Banks family members, had their phones seized by federal investigators.

Brian Lehrer: I watched the news conference, and I noted something that the mayor said that raised my eyebrows that the reporter in that clip referred to but it went by quick for our listeners. The mayor had, in response to a previous question, said, "Well, there aren't that many people leaving. You're talking about eight people. There's a workforce of 300,000." He's talking about every civil service worker in all of New York City government as if that's who would be affected by a scandal and saying, "Well, eight out of 300,000," but 300,000 is the entire New York City municipal workforce. It was weird to me to include that number.

Elizabeth Kim: He doesn't appoint those people, and many of them have been working for the city for decades. Yes, a lot of his answers were just-- they didn't make any sense.

Brian Lehrer: Sanitation workers, cops, teachers. Mind your denominator. You also reported, by the way, that the split between Adams and the Banks family has not been as amicable as the mayor has made it seem, like, "Oh, Chancellor Banks told me months ago that it was going to be time for a change because he's been burnt out running the school system." How has he made it seem and what else do you know might really be happening?

Elizabeth Kim: Less than two weeks ago, the mayor was at an event. This was actually to formally announce the resignation of the schools chancellor, David Banks, and the mayor said, "The Banks family is my family." He praised them as not just good public servants, but good human beings. Now what happened a week later was that David Banks had told us that his plan was to leave at the end of the year. Last week, City Hall announces that they're going to move up his resignation date to the middle of this month.

Now, the explanation that the mayor and his office gave was that they wanted a faster transition for the new chancellor, Melissa Aviles-Ramos, but the reports that we heard afterwards was that David Banks was not very happy about this. A source has told me that Sheena Wright was very upset about this. Her resignation, which was also expected, this had been something that many people in City Hall had been talking about for months, but it was done in an also somewhat clumsy way.

On Friday, several sources told us that Wright had told people that she was indeed planning to step down, but then what happened was we never got formal confirmation from either Sheena Wright or the mayor. It seemed as if it was dragging on. I was told by someone that the mayor wanted her out sooner and that she wanted to leave on her own terms. Then yesterday, the news does indeed break. The New York Times reports that she is indeed resigning.

The mayor confirms the news at his own press conference where he's announcing Maria Torres-Springer as the new first deputy mayor, but when I asked the mayor for her last day, they couldn't give me a last day. I asked the mayor's office, "Can I see a resignation letter?" and they also could not provide a resignation letter, which is rather customary. The other signal that things are nothing quite amicable is that both Wright and her husband, David Banks, have hired their own PR firm.

Brian Lehrer: Can the mayor still govern with so many of his top people leaving? He answered that question multiple times yesterday, mostly like this.

Eric Adams: We are not having a shortage of people who are asking to be part of the administration. There's no shortage. People want to serve government and want to serve the people of the city of New York and people are going to step up and do that. We have a deep bench in the city and we have a deep bench in the administration. There's a lot of talent in the administration.

Brian Lehrer: Liz, he is filling each position. We'll talk more about and play a clip of the new first deputy mayor, Maria Torres-Springer. There aren't just ten qualified people in New York to hold those top positions. Does he have a point?

Elizabeth Kim: I thought this was another moment which does defy belief because I don't think that there are candidates lining outside his door to take these jobs because the mayor is in a very precarious position right now. In addition to the indictment, he faces historically low polling. A poll came out last week that said 69% of New Yorkers want him to resign. That by itself I think would make a lot of people think twice about taking a job with this administration.

Then throw in the fact that you have these other lingering investigations that are still out there and the fact that prosecutors last week told a judge that they may file further charges against the mayor. I think the mayor is trying to tell the public a lot of things, but I think it's becoming more and more difficult to really swallow.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a clip of the new first deputy mayor, Maria Torres-Springer, who's been on the show, who has a lot of top-level experience in city government, and who the mayor appointed quickly to succeed Sheena Wright. He had Torres-Springer speak briefly herself at yesterday's news conference. Here she is.

Maria Torres-Springer: This is my life's work and I'm humbled that I get to continue this work in this new role. It's a very complex time in our city, but I think that my priorities are very simple. Working with the mayor, those priorities are to focus on the work to support the incredible leaders we have across City Hall and all of the agencies, and most importantly, to stand shoulder to shoulder with the 300,000 public servants who continue to work tirelessly to deliver services and to improve lives.

Brian Lehrer: Liz, who is Maria Torres-Springer and what's her reputation?

Elizabeth Kim: Maria Torres-Springer has more than two decades of experience in city government. Her resume spans three administrations going back to Mayor Bloomberg. She's viewed as a very competent hand, especially when it comes to policy. She is steeped in housing, in economic development, and she's been the main person behind the mayor's City of Yes proposal. That's his plan to update the city's zoning code as a way to spur more housing development.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, that's always been my impression of her when she's come on this show over the course of several administrations and largely to talk housing policy, which we talk about so much here, impressive and high-level policy wonk. Go ahead.

Elizabeth Kim: Right. Before she took on housing, what was the main thing in her portfolio was economic development. If you listen to the mayor talk these days, he frequently touts the city's job growth as one of his wins. I think between that and her expertise in housing, the appointment made a lot of sense. She is the person who is guiding two of the mayor's most important policy agendas.

Brian Lehrer: To his earlier point, that there is a deep enough bench for him to continue to run the city, and to your earlier question about whether there are enough people lining up to take these jobs, given the pressure that he's under and most New Yorkers want him to resign, according to that poll, why'd she take the job?

Elizabeth Kim: To respond to what the mayor said, he did have Maria Torres-Springer as a deputy mayor and he was able to elevate her, but that in turn creates a hole. Who then takes Torres-Springer's role as the deputy mayor for housing and economic development and workforce. It's telling that he had to go to someone internal to fill that role. He was asked yesterday, "Do you plan to fill Phil Banks's role, the deputy mayor for public safety?"

New York has not had a deputy mayor for public safety for many decades going back to Dinkins, and the mayor was very, quite proud when he created that role. He said it was extremely important. The mayor said yes, but I think the question that many of us had, who are you going to find to take these roles and join an administration that is currently under scandal?

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, who has a question or a comment for our lead Eric Adams reporter Elizabeth Kim as we talk about the state of the Adams administration, which of course was almost 100% of the focus at yesterday's news conference? I will ask Liz later if anything about actual policy and actual running the city came up at all yesterday, but listeners, if you want to weigh in, 212-433 WNYC, or if you have a question, 212-433-9692. Call or text 212-433 WNYC. 433-9692.

Before we play a few more clips of the mayor, you noted that one of those who left, a City Hall aide who worked as a liaison to the Muslim community, has now been arrested for witness tampering and obstruction. This is not a person who our listeners by and large would have heard of. Who is Mohammed Bahi and who was he to the mayor?

Elizabeth Kim: Mohammed Bahi worked in the mayor's office for community affairs and there he served as a liaison between the mayor and Muslim New Yorkers. I remember Mohammed Bahi for his role in allowing mosques to broadcast the Muslim call to prayer without requesting a permit. I remember his presence at that press conference and the mayor calling him out, but he was also very present in the weeks after the October 7th attacks last year, because he was the conduit between the mayor and Muslim New Yorkers who were unhappy with the mayor.

He was trying to foster a dialogue between the mayor and that community, but on Tuesday, he became known for something very, very different, which is, as you said, being arrested for witness tampering and obstructing an investigation. Prosecutors are saying that he instructed donors to lie to investigators and that he also deleted an encrypted messaging app called Signal from his phone just as feds were trying to seize his phone when they came to his house with the search warrant.

Brian Lehrer: He's implicated in connection with the same scandal having to do with influence by the Turkish government and other people connected to Turkey as the mayor.

Elizabeth Kim: No, this doesn't have anything to do with Turkey. This is about straw donations and his work in the 2021 campaign helping the mayor arrange fundraisers. Straw donors are basically illegal donations that are made in someone else's name to get around the limits that are imposed.

Brian Lehrer: That's part of the Eric Adams indictment too, that he enabled and knew about straw donations to get around the donation limits so that his campaign could continue to get taxpayer-matching funds. This was a different incident of an alleged straw donor scheme.

Elizabeth Kim: That's correct, Brian. The indictment is also about illegal donations that were made from foreign donors in Turkey. This one is different. This involves a developer who has Uzbeki origins, not someone from Turkey, and this happened in New York City.

Brian Lehrer: I see. I was just trying to understand how much this allegedly rubs off on the mayor. It seems like maybe not so much. I gather the mayor also fired someone who was indicted along with him, in fact but is now cooperating with prosecutors. Who's that person and with what implications for the mayor in that case? I've heard people start to use the term star witness.

Elizabeth Kim: Now, that person, Rana Abbasova, she is believed to be directly linked to that indictment involving his ties to Turkey because she was the liaison to the Turkish community. Yes, it was reported that she had turned against the mayor about a month or so ago and that she is cooperating with the feds.

Brian Lehrer: Now she's fired. The mayor's not firing himself for being indicted. That's very plain. Why did he fire that person? Was it for being disloyal to him for cooperating with prosecutors or did he have some other reason at least that he stated?

Elizabeth Kim: The mayor is not talking about people who were fired. What he said yesterday, which I thought was interesting, was that his legal team has created a firewall between himself and them and they are the ones that are deciding who is getting fired.

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute with Liz Kim. We'll start taking some of your calls and texts. Here's a snarky one in a text message just to get it going. We don't take this literally, but a listener says, "They're going to have to replace the rat czar soon because all the rats are deserting the sinking ship." Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We'll continue with Liz Kim in a minute.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC with our lead Eric Adams reporter Elizabeth Kim, as usual on Wednesdays with clips of the mayor's weekly Tuesday news conference. Yesterday, almost all the questions and answers about the scandal and the indictment surrounding the mayor and some of his top people right now. Maybe we should note for people who didn't watch it as we did, that it was visually very different from the mayor's usual news conference where he brings an array of aides with him.

Yesterday, he did bring Maria Torres-Springer, the new first deputy mayor, we played that clip, just to introduce her. He didn't have her hang around and continue to answer questions. He made the point at the beginning to reporters that he's coming out basically alone because he knows all the questions are going to be about the scandal, and "When you journalists are ready to get back to asking about city policy and things like that, then I'll bring the other department heads out here with me."

That was an interesting staging, but also an interesting tweaking of the media because there are all these other things that we could be asking about, about running the city. Right?

Elizabeth Kim: That is true, but I think given the unprecedented nature of this, it's fair for the press to ask him about not just the indictment, but the ongoing investigations and also the wave of resignations. I think the mayor is probably also conscious of the fact that to have the press conference, as he normally does, in the blue room where he's seated next to his deputy mayors and other advisors, that the supporting cast has now changed. That will look very different, too. The optics of that I think he's very conscious of, too.

Brian Lehrer: Here is a question that says, "What about Hakeem Jeffries? I've not heard much discussion." Actually, the democratic leader in the House of Representatives, of course, congressman from Brooklyn, Hakeem Jeffries, was asked the other day if he thought Mayor Adams should resign and he said no. Right, Liz?

Elizabeth Kim: That's right. He was asked, I think it was on Thursday, about Mayor Adams's situation and he said that the mayor deserves the presumption of innocence and that we should just let the legal process play out.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call from Charles on the Upper West Side. Charles, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Charles: Brian, you're amazing and so was your party in Central Park. I wanted to say that my eyebrows rose when the mayor was going to Washington with all the other mayors to get funding for the migrants, and all of a sudden, in the middle of his departure, he turns around and comes back because that's when they picked up one of his aides. I just thought that that was a real eye-raiser. Then the other thing is that [crosstalk].

Brian Lehrer: Did you mean it was an eye-raiser in terms of that you suspected the timing on the part of the Justice Department or in what ways did it raise your eyebrows?

Elizabeth Kim: The mayor, because if you need money for the migrants and if you're not guilty of anything, why would you turn around when all the mayors are trying to get funding for the migrants and come back to New York to take care of an aide that got picked up by the FBI?

Brian Lehrer: Got it.

Charles: I thought that was very strange. Then also later, he got into this beef with Biden because when he turned around and come back, Hochul couldn't go to Washington and be in this place. Then later he got into a beef with Biden, and [unintelligible 00:26:03] throw that back in his face after they indicted him. That was a migrant problem thing. It didn't boil too long, but it sizzled a bit. That's basically what I wanted to say.

Brian Lehrer: Charles, thank you very much. Thanks a lot. I didn't mean to cut you off there, but I thought you were done. I think you were mostly done. Mark in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Mark.

Mark: Hi. I'm a retired city manager, and my biggest objection to Eric Adams was his appointment of politicians to commissionerships. I'll give you an example of the former city council member who's the head of the Commission of Transportation. The buildings department has had former council people. I'm sure some of them are trying hard do a good job, I'm not saying they're not, but these jobs used to attract nationwide the best of the best. Mitchell Silver, who was a parks commissioner, was a nationally known parks administrator. Janette Sadik-Khan was a nationally known transportation expert.

Brian Lehrer: That was under Bloomberg and de Blasio.

Mark: Right. He's appointed Zach Iscol. I'm sure he's trying to do a good job at OEM, but he's not an expert in this area. My objection to the cronyism of Eric Adams is not only in his highest circle of deputy mayors but even in those commissionerships that require real expertise and the best and the brightest. We just didn't get them. We got [crosstalk] city council members.

Brian Lehrer: It's going off on a tangent, but this is interesting coming from you who describe yourself as a former city manager. I once lived for a few years in a city with a city manager form of government. People in New York City are not familiar with that. That city also had a mayor, but the mayor was the politician, and then they hired a professional city manager to actually do most of the running of the city. That, I guess, would be your grounding in terms of hiring experts rather than elevating people in the political sector. Yes?

Mark: Yes. I worked in a number of agencies. I worked at HPD, I worked at DCash, I worked for DHS, and our commissioners were the best, were incredibly talented, incredibly experienced, and we just didn't get that under Eric Adams.

Brian Lehrer: Mark, thank you very much. It's an interesting point, Liz. I don't know. I would have to take a closer look at the numbers, how unusual the percentage of politicians, like city council members elevated to commissioner of this or that there are in the Adams administration compared to any other administration. It certainly happens at every level of government that people are elevated from their role in the political sector to something managing an agency when one of their allies gets elected.

Elizabeth Kim: That's right, Brian. I don't know. I think that is a good question. Did Adams do more political appointments? As luck would have it, just yesterday I was speaking to someone who works in DOT, and their take on it is that it's not out of the ordinary to have someone who is considered a political appointee. He says that in the past, some of them can be good because it's not as if-- that person comes into an agency with veterans who are very steeped in transit policy.

Their role as the head of that agency can be to basically-- they take advice, they take feedback, they learn. You can have different types of commissioners. I think the point that Mark makes is fair. You might say maybe in DOT, you might want someone to be with a deep background in transportation, given how important transit is, but it's not unheard of. I don't think that the fact that it is a political appointee necessarily means that that will be a bad commissioner.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a provocative question from yesterday's news conference. This comes from Nick Garber of Crain's, the business publication, to the mayor yesterday about the elevation of Maria Torres-Springer, who I think is popular in the business community, to first deputy mayor.

Nick Garber: On Maria Torres-Springer's elevation, is it correct that the governor signed off on her elevation, and is that standard practice?

Eric Adams: I'm sorry [crosstalk]

Nick Garber: Is it correct that the governor signed off on her being elevated to first deputy mayor, and is that standard practice going forward for personnel changes to get the governor's approval?

Brian Lehrer: Here's the mayor's answer.

Eric Adams: I'm the mayor. I don't get signed off from other entities to make movement within the department or the agencies. I'm not sure where that question came from. Did someone tell you that the governor has to sign off on our elevation? [inaudible 00:31:16] You know if it's reported, it has to be accurate. [laughs] Listen, I don't get authorizations to move around personnel. Matter of fact, to the contrary, the governor made it clear that, "You're the mayor of the city. You have an obligation to continue the success that we have done together." The governor and I have been extremely successful together. She's a partner.

Brian Lehrer: Why does this come up about whether the governor signed off on the changes that the mayor is making. This, Liz, I presume, is because the governor is the one who has the power to remove Mayor Adams from office if he doesn't resign and if she deems it in the public interest or maybe in her political interest. There has been reporting, which the mayor is denying there, that the governor is pressuring him to make these changes, to fire a lot of those people named Banks and others, or pressure them to resign. Thats the only way that she won't remove him. Do we have any confirmation of that?

Elizabeth Kim: That's been reported by my colleague John Campbell that the governor has asked the mayor to so-called, "do a clean house." I think that that has been out there and like you said, the governor has this authority to remove the mayor, which means she has unique leverage on him in this moment. It's problematic, though, for the mayor because, because of this upheaval, because of his indictment, he is being asked repeatedly whether he can still govern.

He's trying to project control in a moment where it seems like he has none. To have the governor behind the scenes basically telling reporters on background that she is instructing the mayor to clean house, it makes the mayor look like he isn't in control. You see how the mayor responded to that question. He was a little prickly about it. It really undermines him.

Brian Lehrer: The poll that made news this week and that we've referred to briefly here that 69% of New York City residents polled think Mayor Adams should resign. That's a really large number. Do we have a breakdown of it? Do we have a sense of who still supports him remaining in office and whether those 69% come from certain demographics, certain neighborhoods, certain political orientations, anything like that?

Elizabeth Kim: I didn't get down to the nitty-gritty of the poll, but you do see in that poll slippage from Black New Yorkers who are considered the mayor's base. That has been a consistent trend that we have seen in polls even before the indictment. He is losing support among those who helped him win election.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take another call. Here's Donald looking in from Westwood, New Jersey. Donald, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Donald: Hi. This may be a little off-topic, but I'm an architect, and I'm calling about the charge against the mayor pushing through the approval of the Turkish consulate building. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Before all the fire inspections were signed off on.

Donald: Right. When we submit a set of plans, we go over them meticulously to see that we conform to all the building codes and other fire regulations and everything else. I don't understand how the project got so far as to be reviewed by the building department if they were deficient to that point. I don't understand how the architect might have been negligent or if there's some other involvement. Anyway, it's [crosstalk].

Brian Lehrer: As an architect who has gone through this permitting process, does that make you think more that the mayor probably didn't do anything wrong or that he probably did? Because you're pretty in the weeds there.

Donald: No, it's probable that he did whatever he's charged with, but I don't understand how it got to that point to begin with, that it was submitted for review with so many deficiencies.

Brian Lehrer: That's interesting. Liz, I hadn't thought about that, but there are levels of the bureaucracy before you can open a new building that involve not just the mayor and a fire inspector, which is how we hear the story framed, but people in the buildings department and the architect and others who might have had to be in on it in some way. Who knows? It's an interesting question that he raises.

Elizabeth Kim: I don't know what the checklist is for a project of that scale, but I think he makes a fair point. It doesn't seem like something that at the last minute you would discover that they hadn't done XYZ in terms of fire safety.

Brian Lehrer: Let's close with a clip that you brought from the news conference yesterday labeled Vintage Eric. This will speak for itself.

Eric Adams: This is not new ground. Many of you are saying that know me, y'all saying, "This is vintage Eric." To those who just introduce themselves to me, they have a different belief. This has never changed who you're seeing.

Brian Lehrer: Vintage Eric in what way? Then we're out of time.

Elizabeth Kim: Vintage Eric in the sense that he wants you to remember who he is. He wants you to remember the biography that helped get him elected. Son of a single mother who grew up in poverty. He was the police officer who spoke out about racism on the force. He was diagnosed with dyslexia and diabetes. I saw someone write on Twitter saying that what he's trying to do is he's trying to normalize this situation, but, of course, the problem is this is anything but normal, having a mayor face charges of fraud and corruption. It's unprecedented in modern times.

Brian Lehrer: Our lead Eric Adams reporter Elizabeth Kim, who joins us most Wednesdays after the mayor's Tuesday news conferences. Probably talk to you next week, Liz.

Elizabeth Kim: Thank you, Brian.

 

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