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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Just to put a pin in the call-in we were just having. The actual word count from the newsletter responses had the word 'all' as the actual number one word that people used in their responses last week. The number one word was 'all,' tied for number two were 'justice' and 'freedom,' and number three was 'equality,' followed by 'respect' and 'fair.' Those were the actual results of top words used in your six-word descriptions of your core political values.

Now as usual on Wednesdays, our lead Eric Adams reporter, Elizabeth Kim, is here with excerpts and analysis from the Mayor's Tuesday news conference, and she'll take your calls and texts about some of these things. One of the headlines is that despite four beach drownings less than three weeks into the season, the Mayor dismissed calls for longer lifeguard hours. Mayor Adams was also asked to reflect on the ways in which migration has been turned into a major election issue on the national stage. I think he broke some news about a declining number of asylum-seekers coming since Joe Biden changed the border policy. We'll hear those clips and touch on a few more topics in city politics.

Hi, Liz. Happy Wednesday.

Elizabeth Kim: Happy Wednesday, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take some calls if anybody wants to weigh in or ask Liz a question. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Call or text. Before yesterday's news conference, Mayor Adams attended a funeral for two young sisters from the Bronx who drowned at Coney Island, and last month, two teenage boys drowned at Jacob Riis Park. Before we hear our first clip, can you give us some context for these tragic losses of life?

Elizabeth Kim: As you said, the Mayor that very morning had attended the funeral. Even before the funeral, after the drowning on Friday night, the Queens Borough President Donovan Richards began making a call demanding that the city address this as an emergency issue. One of the suggestions that he had was to extend lifeguard hours.

I should say that this is not a new idea. It's not a new proposal by any means, but I think in this moment, there were four drownings; four drownings that happened just basically weeks into the beginning of summer, and both of those incidents happened on very, very hot days. What the Queens Borough President was arguing is that we're going to see more frequent heat waves, and what we're all going to see as a result of that is more people seeking relief by going into the waters.

The Mayor went to the funeral. I fully expected that someone was going to ask him to respond to the Queens Borough President's request, which was backed by a joint statement that two councilmembers, and also the Brooklyn Borough President, Antonio Reynoso, also joined Richards on this call. The Mayor was asked, what is your response to this? What kind of policy would you like to implement to prevent drownings?

Brian Lehrer: Here's 45 seconds of his answer.

Mayor Adams: Our hours are similar to other large cities across America, and so I think it's more about education. It's more about identifying what the flags mean when lifeguards are on duty. Because you can close at eight o'clock, you can close at nine o'clock, but if people are not really educated, and have a real holistic approach to some of the swimming training we want to do, what the Governor is doing-- that's really how forward-thinking the Governor was when she really leaned into the whole swimming initiative that we want to do. We have to continue to make sure, as the DM stated, that we educate parents and loved ones on when is the time to be in the water, and we don't want people in the water when lifeguards are not on duty.

Brian Lehrer: Liz, it sounds like the Mayor is saying, hey, folks, it's your own personal responsibility not to drown. I don't know if that's too harsh a reading, but that's one way to hear that clip.

Elizabeth Kim: Yes, you could read it that way. I was a little bit surprised that that was the Mayor's response, in part because he was-- hours before that, before his remarks, he had been at the funeral, and like I said, I fully expected that he was going to be asked about this. This is not a new quandary for mayors in New York City. I will say that my colleague, Liam Quigley, he did an analysis, and he found that 20 people have drowned at beaches in New York City since 2019.

I also want to point out that the two teens that drowned in June, that happened at Jacob Riis Park. Now that's a federally operated site, so those are not New York City lifeguards. All the same, though, I think it does open up this conversation that we've been having for decades now. Should the city extend the hours of lifeguards? Would it make a difference? There are people who strongly feel that it would make a difference simply by extending it even just an hour, it's an hour longer-- because there's more daylight in the summer too. There are, possibly, more young people or just more people in general who might be tempted to dip their toes into the water while it's still light out, but there's no lifeguard there.

What some people are now saying is it doesn't have to be-- you don't have to have the city man the entire beach. How about just extending the hours at just a small section of the beach? Now this runs up against another challenge that the city has, which is a lifeguard shortage. This has been a national problem since the pandemic. The pandemic disrupted swimming lessons and swimming training for a whole generation of would-be swimmers and would-be lifeguards, so the city is also battling that. The other issue for the city is the lifeguard union has been historically notoriously difficult for the city to deal with when they want to make any changes in policies.

I will say that after the Mayor's press conference, I went to Donovan Richards to ask him to respond to what the Mayor said, and I have some tape of what he told me.

Brian Lehrer: Here's that. Queens Borough President Richards.

Queens Borough President Richards: We are already off to four drownings this year, right? If that's not cause for a state of emergency, I think the Mayor is sorely misled. I don't think-- The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over again and thinking you're going to get different results.

Brian Lehrer: Liz, is four a lot compared to other years? Do we know the stats on drowning in city waters?

Elizabeth Kim: It is a lot for just two to three weeks into the summer, Brian, because four was the total number of drownings that happened last year. That's why you have someone like the Queens Borough President, city councilmembers expressing their alarm at the situation. They're also alarmed by the fact that there have been several hot days in a row. What they're saying is at a point in time where we're seeing the climate change, where we're seeing the planet get warmer, does it make sense to maybe- even just within heat waves, to extend the hours?

Now the city does extend the hours at pools when there is a heat wave, and they did this last weekend.

Brian Lehrer: With lifeguards?

Elizabeth Kim: Correct, so what some of these electeds are saying is, why not beaches? Because if we're saying, if we're acknowledging that people need this relief during hot weather, and they're seeking out that relief at pools, we need to acknowledge that a lot of them are seeking it out at beaches. That is the question.

I do also want to acknowledge that the Mayor has introduced something new on this issue, which is drones. The NYPD and the FDNY have begun using drones over the oceans, over the city beaches with the idea that within the drones, they contain some kind of flotation devices that they could eject if there was a swimmer in distress. Now all of this is new. The city has not talked about how many rescues they've made using these drones. There's quite a bit of skepticism from people who do lifeguard work that this could work, but we will see. That has been the Mayor's policy response, you could say.

Brian Lehrer: Lisa is calling in on this from Queens. Lisa, you're on WNYC with Elizabeth Kim. Hi, there.

Lisa: Hi. Yes, I have spoken to your screener. I just have two suggestions. One of them is definitely offering more swim lessons more easily accessible to young people and regardless of their age. I know my daughter took swim lessons at Astoria Pool for free when she was two years old, which was fantastic. To make them available to kids in New York City no matter what age they are because especially teenagers-- I grew up in New York City. We always knew how to swim, but I feel like that is not a common occurrence anymore. It's not a given that kids know how to swim or know how to ride bikes. Things that were just a given in prior generations are not applicable now. Even making swim lessons available to kids that are 13, 14, 16, 17, these are kids that are going to be, especially at the beach, unsupervised, alone, no parents, maybe out after hours. The least we could do is make sure that everybody has the access to swim lessons.

Brian Lehrer: Lisa, thank you [crosstalk]--

Lisa: My second suggestion [crosstalk]--

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead. Second suggestion [crosstalk]--

Lisa: I have one more.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Lisa: Some international program to draw more lifeguards from other countries, young people that want to come to work in New York for the summer. If we don't have lifeguards, like we don't have lifeguards, there has to be-- instead of saying we need more, we need more, like find a way to get them and reach out maybe to young people in other countries that are interested to come to New York for the summer and work. Those are my two suggestions. Thank you, Brian. Bye.

Brian Lehrer: They're both great. Thank you, Lisa. I want to follow up on both of those, Liz. On the second one, we hadn't even mentioned the lifeguard shortage as a contributor to what might be the limited hours. You'll tell me whether it's relevant or not, but there is a lifeguard shortage, right?

Elizabeth Kim: Right. That is a reality, and you can't help but-- Of course, that is a limitation on what the city can do. I will say that the Adams administration negotiated a new settlement with the lifeguard union this year, and that allows the city to tweak the rules to make it easier to hire lifeguards. Currently, we are up to 800 lifeguards. That's still short of the 1,500, and this is for pools and beaches, that the city would like to have.

Brian Lehrer: Wow, that's really short.

Elizabeth Kim: Right. Again, what the proponents of a plan to extend lifeguard hours would say is, you don't have to have all of those lifeguards working the entire beach. How about just a small section, maybe only in some beaches?

Brian Lehrer: When Lisa talks about training kids to swim, I go back to the clip of the Mayor we played from yesterday's news conference where he said, "If people are not really educated and have a real holistic approach to some of the swimming training we want to do..." He seemed to be putting it on people to get educated themselves, but Lisa talked about getting it in high school. I went to high school in Queens, and the high school had a pool and they gave us swimming lessons. They taught us different strokes. Certainly, that would help keep you alive in a swimming situation. How universal is that or not in high school in New York City today? Any idea? Did that even come up?

Elizabeth Kim: Well, the Queens Borough President responded to this, and he told me that-- I mean, he says he didn't know of any school in his borough that is consistently or has this as part of their curriculum. I think it's really eroded over the years. I don't know how many public schools have working pools at this point. I think everyone agrees that, yes, there should be more investment in teaching kids how to swim. Part of that got disrupted as a result of the pandemic and also as a result in budget cuts, because of budget cuts as well.

I would also say that it's not a complete cure for this-- it's not a cure-all for this problem because there are people who drown despite knowing how to swim. A lot of it is because of rip currents and how dangerous they are. They often say that even the most adept swimmers can get swept away as a result of rip currents. There's part of this, and the Mayor touched on this. It's not just knowing how to swim. It's just general water safety. He talked about people need to understand how to decipher the flags. If you see a red flag, it means that swimming is off-limits at that beach. I don't know. I think people who want to see the hours extended would say that the temptation is just too great. If you imagine a very hot day in which young people are outside, there's nowhere to go, or they're just seeking to have a good time [crosstalk]--

Brian Lehrer: Yes, you want to go in the water.

Elizabeth Kim: Right. It's there. That's one of the beauties of living in New York City is we live along the coast and you want to enjoy that. Like I said, this is not a new problem. It's a decades-old problem, and I think the Mayor is being pressured at this point to come up with a solution.

Brian Lehrer: I'm going to take one more call on this. Zeke in Park Slope does have some suggestions, but also maybe I should issue a trigger warning if this is going to be traumatic for anybody. I think he's going to tell us that he witnessed the Coney Island drowning. Zeke, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Zeke: Sure. Thank you, Brian. First of all, I want to say thank you for just being who you are. You're doing an amazing job, and one of the most objective radio hosts I've ever listened to.

Brian Lehrer: You're very kind.

Zeke: Yes, I was there that night, and I have to tell you-- I'm still recovering from the trauma of hearing the pain, the situation, the mother's scream. It's really taking a toll on me, but several things. I am a swimmer. I'm a scuba diver. I've swam many times. I've been caught in many riptides, so I know several things about swimming, I believe. It's just dangerous swimming in the water. I don't care what the situation is. The Mayor has taken away-- I believe there was classes in the city pools for local kids to learn how to swim. First of all, the majority of kids in public pools are minorities, okay? Just learning how to be in the water and swim in the water can be a differential.

As a person speaking about riptides; yes, riptides in Coney Island are terrible. I swim in Brighton Beach regularly. I've swam at Coney Island. One of the biggest problems is that the way the landscape is, is in Coney Island, there's a drop, okay? I don't care who you are. You're right, the most experienced swimmer can get caught in that and be pulled, okay? The difference to that is that people drown because they don't know how to swim, and once they get pulled, they don't know how to react under that situation, okay?

As a Black man, when I do swim in public pools, and I do it as a mission, I'm pleased to see young kids watch a Black person swim because we don't have that part of our background. Black or white or anyone else when they watch me swim, I tell them how to first react underwater, if you're underwater, because there's a whole state of mind that happens no matter if you're in fear, but once you know what you're doing, you can learn how to work riptides.

Finally, I do believe that it's going to be a never-ending problem in Coney Island just because of the land structure. You have to use these public pools as another educational tool to help kids to learn how to swim to help prevent this problem. Again [crosstalk]--

Brian Lehrer: Zeke, thank you for all of that. Let me ask you one follow-up question on something that you said.

Zeke: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Because again, thinking back to my own swimming lessons in high school, I don't think they included what to do if you're swimming in the ocean and there's a rip current. How do you teach a kid in a pool, which of course is by definition calm waters, to be ready for a rip current if they go in the water of Coney Island or somewhere?

Zeke: Thank you, Brian. Fabulous question. Actually, we were just having this conversation when I was swimming on Sunday. First of all, one person said someone had told him with a riptide, you just ride it out. That's absolutely wrong because that riptide can take you miles out or across, okay? What I've been told, and I've done it about five times, what happens-- It could be you don't know how wide a riptide is, but you go up-- not parallel to it, but you go across it, okay? Normally, what happens-- and I've done this, like five times I've been in them in [unintelligible 00:19:11], in other many places.

Actually, you can swim across. I particularly tend to go under the water and breaststroke across it and then you'll come out of it, okay? That's what I was told. It's worked. It's saved my life over five times. I tell people the same exact thing. It doesn't matter if you're an experienced swimmer or not. It's how to go across that riptide. That would be the answer to your question that I'm familiar with. There might be other ways. I've had it happen five times to me. I'm allowed to speak about it. Each time, I've done the same practice. [crosstalk]--

Brian Lehrer: Good to know. Who knows? You may have just proactively saved somebody's life who may get caught in the future in a rip current. Zeke, I'm going to leave it there. Thank you so much for your wonderful call. I really appreciate it.

Zeke: Thank you for your time. Thank you for your great service, sir. Thank you so much.

Brian Lehrer: Liz, before we go on to another topic from the Mayor's news conference yesterday, any reaction to Zeke?

Elizabeth Kim: No, I think that makes a lot of sense. Like Zeke said, it's also about learning how to handle a riptide. I think the Mayor was talking about that kind of education, maybe more PSAs. The city does say that after hours, they do have parks officials, NYPD, they're supposed to be patrolling the beaches and telling people not to go in the water. The Queens Borough President told me that he has yet to see that in the beaches in his borough, so there's a little bit of a dispute around that.

At the end of the day, I think that this is a safety issue that-- We don't want people to go into the water. That's the reality, and that's what the Mayor said. People should not go into the water when there's not a lifeguard. I think what people who are challenging him on this is to say, let's look at the reality and what's actually going to happen because this is not a new phenomenon. The temptation is just too great.

Brian Lehrer: Next topic, Mayor Adams was asked about the presence of people engaging in or with sex work on Roosevelt Avenue in or near Corona in Queens. His team had conducted a sweep there a few months ago, but that apparently didn't really stem the tide. Before we play a clip, how did the presence of sex work get to that area at apparently a high level, and do you have any more context to add before we hear the clip of the Mayor on this?

Elizabeth Kim: Well, what the business owners and residents have been saying was that they noticed an uptick around the time when there were more migrants coming to New York City. It is very visible, it's been written about. The Mayor has been asked about it before. This is not the first time. I was at the town hall that the Mayor did in this neighborhood, and it came up again and again and again, and it's a little bit of a political thorn for the Mayor, similar to the issues around 14th Street, similar to the issues around Times Square. For the people who live and work there, this is seen as a quality of life issue.

Brian Lehrer: Here's 30 seconds of the Mayor when asked about Roosevelt Avenue and the concentration of sex workers and their clients.

Mayor Adams: We went over in the area, did a sweep there. The team has been focusing on that area. We don't want to be heavy-handed, but it's clear we have a sex trafficking issue here. Prostitution is real. People want to dismiss it, but it's a health issue that we need to address as we try to grapple and get our hands around some of the STDs that we're facing. It's an abuse issue. There's nothing pleasing about seeing what's playing out on Roosevelt Avenue, and we have to do the right balance.

Brian Lehrer: Liz, do you have any indication of what the Mayor or his administration believe would be the right balance, as he put it at the end of the clip? Because some people advocate legalizing sex work. They don't want the women who have to try to make their living that way to get in legal trouble, but the Mayor points out at the same time, it's a trafficking issue, it's a health issue. What's the administration policy on this? In fact, what's the law at this point?

Elizabeth Kim: The discussion around what's known as decriminalization of sex work is more nuanced than the Mayor is suggesting, and there has been this debate for several years now. Currently, prostitution is punishable by up to three months in jail and a fine of up to $500. In practice, the NYPD has not been arresting sex workers. Rather, they've been trying to target the establishments that employ them. That means shutting down places like massage parlors, and that's what they've been doing on Roosevelt Avenue.

When it comes to what the Mayor wants, I'd be interested in pushing the Mayor and asking him-- At one point, he said, we don't want to be "heavy-handed." What exactly does that mean? If you listen to his remarks, it sounds like he doesn't believe that police should go and arrest sex workers. He talks about going after the people who are exploiting them, the traffickers. That sounds pretty much consistent with probably what other Democrats would also say.

I think sometimes the Mayor tries to paint like the others, like many people want to just dismiss this. I don't think that that's true. Yes, there is a conversation going on among Democrats whether it would be better to just fully decriminalize the entire industry, and that would include the operators, but that is an ongoing debate, and not everybody agrees on that. There are a lot of people like the Mayor who want to see traffickers fully prosecuted. They want to see harsher penalties, in fact, for those people.

Brian Lehrer: Is there a relationship between the concentration of sex work on Roosevelt Avenue around Corona and the number of asylum-seekers coming to the city? I think that was implied.

Elizabeth Kim: Yes, that's been something that has been stated by the people who live there. This is not just about the sex workers. They've also complained that there were more vendors too in that neighborhood as well following the influx of asylum-seekers. I think that that makes sense. I think this is a community of people who are looking to survive in the city. Sex work, whether people approve of it or not, is a way that people can earn money.

Brian Lehrer: Just like selling candy on the subways, right?

Elizabeth Kim: Correct.

Brian Lehrer: If you can't get a foothold in the so-called legitimate economy because you don't have working papers yet because that all happens so slowly, then you make a living in ways that you can. [crosstalk] Go ahead.

Elizabeth Kim: I want to point out, the Mayor makes a good point that this is a health issue: sexually transmitted diseases. One of the arguments that people make about decriminalizing the work is that it would make it easier for there to be intervention, and for advocates or health workers to come into these communities and give the people who are doing the sex work the proper protection they need and the proper advice they need on how to do this in a safe way, and that they're entitled to earn a living and that the city should just acknowledge this, but support them at the same time. That is the counterargument to what the Mayor is saying. It's not that the people who are advocating for decriminalization are turning a blind eye to the health issues.

Brian Lehrer: Got it. Adams also reflected on the ways in which migration generally has been turned into a major election issue on the national stage. Here he is on that, and at the beginning of the clip, he cites a legendary television sports anchor. Here we go.

Mayor Adams: I never thought I would be quoting Warner Wolf, but let's go to the videotapes. [chuckles] Everything we said in my first meetings with the White House, talking about work authorization, talking about controlling the border, talking about the federal government funding this, talking about a decompression strategy, if we were-- The only thing, I think, I have to say I wish I would've done better, maybe I've failed in properly articulating how this was going to be a national impact. It didn't surprise this team when it was a top issue in the caucuses where they didn't even have migrants. We saw this coming like we saw the crime issue. When you spend enough time on the streets, you can hear the voices of the people on the streets.

Brian Lehrer: What's the takeaway from the Mayor's comments there, Liz?

Elizabeth Kim: The Mayor got a lot of heat for the way he managed the migrant influx. Whether you agree or disagree with his approach, it's hard not to see that he has shaped not just the rhetoric around the migrant crisis, but he has shaped the federal policy. Because as we know, he began very loudly criticizing the federal government. Also, he singled out President Biden. He said that the migrant crisis was destroying the city. Democrats really laid into him because they said that what he was doing was he was handing Republicans a very easy talking point on immigration, but in the end, it did put pressure on Biden to change his policies. The President ended up granting work permits to over 400,000 Venezuelans.

That was one of the demands that the Mayor made. He said let them work. By letting them work, that could ease the burden on shelters. Because presumably, if they were able to work and financially support themselves, they wouldn't need to stay in shelters as long. Then last month, the President issued an executive order to temporarily close the border.

In hindsight, it's interesting. Because there was a lot of focus on both this crisis and how the Mayor was dealing with it, but in the end, the Mayor has had a huge hand in shaping not just policy, but also this ongoing debate, heading into a presidential election, as to whether the Democrats botched border policy.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Although, I thought, since I watched the news conference yesterday, that it should have broken out more as national news than it did, I don't know if it's broken out at all as everybody focuses solely on Biden's cognitive abilities right now; the fact that the renewed border policy, if people's goal is to see fewer asylum-seekers coming, is working. Because they said at the news conference, I think it was one of the deputy mayors who said for the first time, fewer than 1,000 asylum-seekers a week have arrived in the city last week. That was significantly less. Still a lot of people, but it was thousands per week, and since Biden sort of closed the border, well, it's significantly less, so something is changing.

Elizabeth Kim: Right. You're 100% right, Brian. It's very interesting that when the numbers were soaring, like 2,000 a week, that this was front page news and there were all of these headlines on this issue, but now-- and not everybody agrees with the President temporarily shutting down the border. Not everyone in his Party agrees with that move, but it's interesting that now that those numbers are coming down, we're not seeing a lot of attention on the crisis anymore.

Brian Lehrer: Last thing, and we're not going to linger on it, but Adams was also asked to weigh in on whether Biden should be replaced at the top of the ticket. In light of Adams meetings with the White House over work authorization and action on migration and asylum, it is a relevant question. Here's 50 seconds of how the Mayor responded on what he thinks about Biden's ability to lead the ticket.

Mayor Adams: This stuff is going to play itself out. The team will tell you there's a quote I say all the time, it's all part of the process. We're going to look over this moment, and I'm just happy to be part of American history as we've seen a lot of this stuff unfold. These are exciting times, and it is going to really see are we who we say we are as Americans. It's easy to recite the Constitution. It's easy to talk about the principles of democracy. Now they're being challenged. Let's see what we're really made of. The President will make determination on what he's doing. He's the President of the United States, and I respect that. He'll make the determination on what he's going to do. I think that if we're going to be Democrats, then we should- we have a Democratic leader. I respect the process. Let the process play out.

Brian Lehrer: We played that 51-second clip, but basically he said nothing, right? He said it's going to play out, which is not to take a position at all.

Elizabeth Kim: Right. I thought it was intriguing because it's so opaque. He talks about the principles of democracy are being challenged, and that if we're going to be Democrats, then we need to have a Democratic leader. I didn't know what that meant, but he's been consistent in that he doesn't-- you can tell, he doesn't really want to weigh in on it, but he's been asked about it numerous times, not only because he's the Mayor of the biggest city in America, but also because his relationship with the President has been strained over immigration.

Brian Lehrer: We leave it there for today with our lead Eric Adams reporter, Liz Kim, who usually joins us on Wednesdays after the Mayor's weekly Tuesday news conferences. Thanks as always, Liz.

Elizabeth Kim: Thank you, Brian.

 

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