Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. You've probably heard by now that President Trump is apparently being affected, to some degree, by the national backlash over the killing of Alex Pretti in Minneapolis. He removed and demoted Greg Bovino, who was heading immigration enforcement operations, and told the lie that Pretti was there to massacre law enforcement. After accusing Governor Tim Walz of inciting an insurrection just a few days ago, Trump now says he and Walz seem to be on a similar wavelength.

By the way, while Greg Bovino was removed after saying Pretti was there to massacre law enforcement, the administration is saying nothing about top Trump aide Stephen Miller, who would call Pretti an assassin and domestic terrorist, also ignoring the video evidence of how his killing went down. Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem also called Pretti a domestic terrorist. Even as the ICE operation continues in Minnesota, there are also now important political questions in Washington.

Besides the questions of Stephen Miller and Kristi Noem's futures, a government funding bill that includes her Department of Home has to be passed in the Senate by Saturday to avoid a partial government shutdown. In light of Minnesota, Democrats are saying they won't pass it unless DHS, the Department of Homeland Security, gets cut out. We'll talk now with New York Democratic Congressman Adriano Espaillat, who represents upper Manhattan and parts of the Bronx. Other things, he is the first formerly undocumented immigrant to be elected to Congress. He has a daily news op-ed now called Congress Should End All Funding for ICE. Congressman, welcome back to WNYC.

Adriano Espaillat: Thank you, Brian. Thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: First, can I get your reaction to the president changing his tone somewhat about the situation in Minneapolis and removing and demoting Greg Bovino?

Adriano Espaillat: Too little, too late. This all began on his trip down that escalator first time around when he called Mexicans rapists. It proceeded with his massive deportation campaign. Originally, he said he was going to deport violent criminals, but as it turns out, 170 Americans have been detained, including seven of them incommunicado during Trump 2.0. The arrest of immigrants without any criminal record has gone up 222%, and 92% of immigrants detained by ICE have no criminal record.

Obviously, this is not about the undocumented only. This is about green card holder, TPS recipient, farm workers. Now, of course, American citizens, that's two American citizens were shot and killed, a murder in Minneapolis. You may remember, Brian, that the violence campaign began somewhat with the body slam of a sitting US Senator, Senator Padilla in California, and the toxic fumes that were deployed against members of Congress in LA as they try to go to one of the detention centers and exercise their oversight rights. In many ways, the CHC, the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, has led a lot of this, not just in the courtrooms, legislatively and budgetarily, but also in shaping public opinion and public sentiment.

Brian Lehrer: Before we get to your op-ed and the partial government shutdown possibility, would you like to see any consequences from the president, specifically for Kristi Noem or Stephen Miller, for saying the same kinds of things, blatant lies, unless they were blatantly misinformed, that Greg Bovino had said?

Adriano Espaillat: I'm already a sponsor of the impeachment proceedings for Kristi Noem, led by Congresswoman Robin Kelly from Illinois. I'm one of the original co sponsors. I think she's unfit for her job. I think she has perpetrated practices that are violent in their very nature and has violated the law. With regards to Bovino, he's just reckless and doesn't have the slightest clue as to what it is that he should be doing. ICE should be about public safety. It shouldn't be about semiautomatic weapons and military gear, and the shooting and murder of American citizens, the assaults on thousands of immigrants with no criminal record and the separation of families.

Brian Lehrer: I see that one of your Republican colleagues in the New York delegation, Andrew Garbarino from Long island, who chairs the Homeland Security Committee, wants leaders of the relevant agencies to testify at an oversight hearing, acting ICE Director Todd Lyons and others. Do you have any indication that Garbarino, who's from a potential swing district, is getting serious about the oversight that he has the power to pursue?

Adriano Espaillat: We see even organizations like the NRA wanting to see an investigation now, and Barbarino and other Republicans have called for an investigation. We were ready for a hearing on it. The Democrats, we are in the minority, but we could, through the Steering and Policy Committee, where we could call a hearing. We were getting ready to do that as we got back. Ultimately, there are two fundamental questions, Brian. How do we dismantle ICE, and how do we stop the funding?

You dismantle ICE by rescinding the flush fund that they have. You mandate robust training and hiring standards, you refocus immigration enforcement on public safety, you overhaul DHS use of demilitarization in the force, and you have oversight mechanism and protection for whistleblowers. Those are some of the components of a bill that we will be introducing as we get back, the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, to dismantle ICE.

Brian Lehrer: This gets us to your daily news op-ed, which is called Congress Should End All Funding for ICE. Make your case. Why go that far?

Adriano Espaillat: Because ICE is an agency that is gripped now by culture of violence. It is beyond reform. There should be a deep dive and discussion about what the agency is and what it should not be. It starts with dismantling. Anytime you have an entity that doesn't work, that has strayed dramatically away from its goals and objectives, you stop, you take a pause, you dismantle it, and you go through each and every one of the issues.

For example, we should start by unmasking ICE. Part of the reason why they're acting violently is because they're anonymous. They don't have a first name, they don't have a last name. When we see them, we don't see their face. We start by unmasking ICE agents. We also ensure that they respect sensitive locations, houses of worship, schools, hospitals. We restrict the use of deadly force. We impose additional training, mental fitness standards, and professional recruitment practices.

Then we have body cameras, but with a protocol, with a protocol that will mandate that they release the videotapes, that they are stored safely, that they won't hold them back or redact them. These videotapes are obviously part of the evidence of what occurred, what we all saw from our cameras-- from a phone camera, but that they try to deny it or they try to distort. These are some of the immediate recommendations before you even dismantle it on.

Brian Lehrer: On dismantle it or ending all funding as you're calling for, there's a debate among Democratic strategists whether that would backfire in the midterms as opposed to calling for ICE reforms and activities to stick to more legitimate targets and means like you were just describing in some detail. Saying end all funds or some say abolish ICE sounds like defund the police, which backfired politically big way. Your reaction to Democrats concerned about that?

Adriano Espaillat: Again, I think, Brian, that the agency is right now gripped by a very deep rooted culture of violence. It has become a weapon, a deadly weapon at that. Because of that, the American people are now seeing immigration in different light. I think that the immigration issue has taken a turn. Whereas before it was seen as a bad thing, now I think immigration is not necessarily seen as a bad thing. People understand that most immigrants now are not violent, nor do they have a criminal record. Some of them may take care of our kids or our elderly family members. Some of them are farm workers, and have essential life saving jobs for our communities.

I think that the American people are starting to see that, and they understand that this agency has gone rogue, and that it needs a total overhaul. You start by dismantling. Of course, the funding behind it. $170 million was given to DHS, $75 of which originally, last year, was given to ICE-- $75 billion. $30 billion of that was for additional agents. The other $45 was for detention centers. Just now, just last week, another $11 billion. That's a lot of money that fuels this violent culture. We should dismantle it and begin a discussion about what comes forward.

Brian Lehrer: If you're just joining us, my guest is Democratic Congressman Adriano Espaillat from upper Manhattan and the Bronx. He has a daily news op-ed called Congress Should End All Funding for ICE. Just to be clear, Congressman, what would happen to anything you might consider legitimate immigration enforcement if you ended all funding for ICE?

Adriano Espaillat: I think that there's going to be some level of enforcement. It's just that what we have now has turned to be very violent, dysfunctional, and is hurting not just law abiding immigrants, but it's killing the American people. We should have a mechanism and a discussion about what should follow. That begins by taking a pause, just like you do with anything that doesn't work in life, and having a deep discussion about each and every one of the items that are relevant to the American people and relevant to the immigration arena, and come up with a model based on best practices, give it a human face. Immigration law is not criminal law, it's civil law.

Should ICE agents carry high caliber weapons? Should they wear military gear? I think that's inconsistent when trying to enforce civil law. These are some of the things that we should have a discussion of.

Brian Lehrer: Now the Senate has this funding bill that includes the Department of Homeland Security, which includes ICE, that would have to be passed by Saturday, the end of the month. Senator Schumer has said he will oppose any funding bill that includes the Department of Homeland Security. Do you support that position?

Adriano Espaillat: I support the position that Senate Democrats should deny them the votes. They run the Senate, they run the House. They have the White House. Anything that aids and abates an agency that's gone wrong and is shooting people in the face and murdering people while they're down. Any agency of that nature should not get the funding to continue to do that. I think it's the right position to deny that funding to them.

Brian Lehrer: If there is a partial government shutdown over that, what do you think the results could be that you would find constructive?

Adriano Espaillat: I think first and foremost that the shutdown will be based on that immediate bill that funds DHS, not the rest of the bills that were agreed upon by the House and that are now before the Senate that have to deal with other items. It will be an isolated debate about DHS and immigration funding. I think that's a proper one to have right now.

Brian Lehrer: Do we know that yet? I know that Schumer and some others are saying a solution to avoid other pain from a partial government shutdown is for the Republican Senate Majority leader, John Thune, to separate Homeland Security into its own funding bill and have that debate on its own. Are you hearing anything from the Senate that indicates Thune will do that?

Adriano Espaillat: That's what we did in the House, and it proved to be effective in the sense that what we agreed on in the other bills, for example, in the THUD bill, which is an important one for my district, what we agreed on, we were able to have that separate discussion in that silo, and it wasn't impacted negatively by the other discussion on DHS. That should be the model to follow. I think that the Senate Democrats should not provide votes for them if they continue to massively fund an agency that is out of control and killing the American people.

Brian Lehrer: I read that if there is that kind of partial government shutdown affecting the Department of Homeland Security, ICE agents wouldn't get paid, though the administration would continue to require them to work as essential employees. Do you think that scenario of ICE agents having to work but not getting paid might make their behavior any better or maybe any worse?

Adriano Espaillat: One of the things that we ought to take a look at, Brian, is the recruitment practices and their mental fitness, because we have all this money fueled into that agency already. It's been very sloppy, if not irresponsible, the way they have been recruited and trained. They shouldn't be on mask. When you're anonymous-- I believe part of the reason why they're acting this way is because nobody could see their faces. Just take a look at what you would do when somebody comes at your doorstep and knocks on your door while they're masked. I don't think many people will open the door. There's a level of distrust there. We should start by showing their faces.

The New York City Police Department doesn't mask themselves. Even detectives that are involved in highly complicated and maybe even investigations that were connected to a violent case don't mask themselves. We know who they are. We know their first name, their last name, and their shield number. Trust begins when you know who you're talking to. In this case, ICE is not providing that trust because they're anonymous.

Brian Lehrer: You mentioned before that the House passed the funding bill separating out Department of Homeland Security for its own debate. Of course, Homeland Security funding did pass the House anyway with seven Democrats joining the Republican majority. George in Manhattan is calling with a question about two of those Democrats who are from New York, like you. George, you're on WNYC with Congressman Adriano Espaillat.

George: Yes, Good morning to you, Brian. Absolutely. I just want to call out Tom Suozzi and Laura Gillen, which were both voted to fund the ICE as part of the $64 billion DHS spending bill. It's an absolute shame. There were seven Democrats, actually, I believe Henry Cuellar of Texas and Vicente Gonzalez of Texas, if I remember correctly, among others. There are a total of seven of them, as you pointed out. Those two in New York, specifically Tom Suozzi and Laura Gillen should be called out. It's totally reprehensible given the current climate of what's going on with these untrained thugs that are killing people in Minneapolis. This is completely unconscionable. That's all I have to say.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Newsday, which of course covers Long island, has a story that says Tom Suozzi and Laura Gillen have now adopted a tougher stance in their language against ICE following the shooting of Pretti and amid criticism, like from our caller, of their previous moderate positions on immigration enforcement in that vote. Would you, Congressman Espaillat, like to see your Long island colleagues, Suozzi and Gillen, primaried this year?

Adriano Espaillat: Certainly, I'm not a supporter of that position. I voted against the funding and my record has been a strong record on immigration in support of immigrants, as I am an immigrant myself. I am one that never shied away from a primary, Brian, you know because you're one of my constituents. I may have faced over 20 primaries in the last 30 years, and I welcome them because I think that's the nature of democracy within our own party and also in the general election.

I never shy away, nor do I discourage or try to avoid a primary, because every two years, we got to go before our voters and make our case. Some of them love us. Some of them may not love us that much, but every two years, we have to go before them. If you're doing a good job, you get reelected.

Brian Lehrer: Here's Gwen in East Harlem calling for you. Gwen, you're on with Congressman Espaillat. Hello.

Gwen: Hi, Adriano, it's Gwen. I think you might remember me from a long time ago. I ran for city council. We met in person at the coffee shop. I wanted to--

Adriano Espaillat: Yes.

Gwen: Yes, Adriano, hello. I'm still out here. I just went to the very freezing cold protest on Friday night, and then Saturday morning, another person gets shot. Now, there was-- I forgot. I'm losing my [unintelligible 00:20:52]. Anyway, there was something put through the other day to put a stay on the amount of violence that ICE could use. It went to the Federal Appellate Court, Eighth Circuit, last night, and they overturned it. When I'm reading it-- nighttime seems to be like the worst time, because then you can't sleep for the rest of the night.

I'm reading that basically they have free reign to do whatever they want, whether it's shooting pepper into your face, whether it's shooting you with a gun. The three judges, one of them was appointed by Trump, another one was appointed by Bush, and I don't know who the last one was appointed by, but they are all Republicans. I want to say that we the public, Adriano, seems to be way ahead of you guys in public office. We recognize that this is not just a function of the government, that there is something much more sinister behind what they're doing. They have a plan and have a game plan, and they have it ready, and they're rolling it out.

We feel like we're standing out here with our asses to the wind and nobody is coming to give us cover. We barely hear from you guys. It is really, really upsetting because it is so dangerous out here. I believe, for sure, the next thing you know, that they will be coming to our houses and arresting you and deporting you regular American citizens if you're an activist. Then they'll go on from there and there and there. This is a really, really corrupt regime we have, and we don't live in a democracy anymore, and it needs to be recognized. We're not at that place anymore. Congress needs to recognize that, and so does the Senate.

Then you got to try to come up with a game plan of how we're going to recapture it. It is very, very scary out here. I want to say one last thing that I noticed that-- I opened something called the Sasha Riley case last week, which talks about pedophilia with Trump and a young man. I noticed that when that happened, we started to see a really, really big uptick in the violence.

I think that a lot of what's going on underneath the surface has very much to do with the amount of sexual pedophilia that goes on in our White House and the surrounding areas. Biggs was in this tape and there was another guy in this tape, Jim Jordan. I tell the public, take a listen to that if you haven't already. I'm surprised it doesn't hit the radio, TV or anything. People are calling it alleged, but it sounds very, very-- sounds like the man's telling the truth. Thanks for letting me talk, and I'll wait to hear your answer.

Brian Lehrer: Gwen, thank you very much.

Adriano Espaillat: Thank you, Gwen.

Brian Lehrer: Congressman, she put a lot of opinions and allegations [crosstalk] on the table there. What would you like to respond to?

Adriano Espaillat: Look, first, the Congressional Hispanic Caucus has led on this issue not just by-- remember, Alex Padilla gets body slammed in California. Five of our members get toxic fumes and pepper spray thrown at them for the first time in California. It is our communities that are disproportionately being arrested and detained. I was in Minnesota and Chicago. What I saw in Minnesota is that most of the Somalian community, as was said by Mayor Frey last night, are US Citizens already.

When they went there to get Somalians and they found out they were, for the most part, US Citizens, the vast majority of people that are being arrested there are Latino men. There's no question that the Latino community has taken the brunt of this. The Congressional Hispanic Caucus has gone to court. We took them to court. I was a plaintiff in getting access to the detention center. We were able to beat them in court with regards to the IRS giving confidential taxpayer information to ICE. We got the airlines to stop selling confidential, passing your information to those law enforcement agencies.

We're in the courtroom, we're fighting legislatively, we're getting beat up and slammed. They call me an illegal immigrant. We're leading by example, and we're throwing the first punch. I think that we're showing the Democratic Party how to fight on this issues. Now, we need to do more. America needs to do more. I think that the American people have begun to react in a very assertive and positive way to the degree that immigration as an issue now, all polls show has shifted, and even Trump is, I think, backing up, I think too late.

We have been leading. We went to Chicago. In Chicago, we saw the Latino community there develop an action plan which includes a rapid response team, establishing safe zones and corridors, consolidating legal services, having soft lockdowns in schools when ICE is on their premises, having virtual classes for students that are afraid to go to school. Immigration court visits. I've gone to the immigration court and seeing firsthand how ICE agents stand outside the door. When the judge dismisses the case and that immigrant comes out, they're cuffed, arrested, detained, and on their way to deportation. We're helping escort some of those migrants out of the court building. We're doing the most that we can. We need to do more.

Brian Lehrer: Do you have any advice to your constituents or any others who may be vulnerable to that kind of thing, whether to keep their scheduled immigration procedure appointments, or for that matter, whether to send their kids to school or go to hospitals for health care? What's your advice to your constituents who may be afraid of just the kind of thing you've been describing?

Adriano Espaillat: The first thing is that, obviously, every case is different, Brian, so they should consult with their attorney before going on immigration court. The fact of the matter is that there's been an 80% reduction on court appearances, which is a problem, because now those folks may have a warrant for them. I think that that's what ICE is pushing, not just to inflict fear in the hallways of these court buildings, but to have immigrants miss their court dates, be in default and be vulnerable for future enforcement. Everyone should talk to their attorney or an attorney, because every case is very different in scope.

With regards to the schools, I urge parents to take their kids to school. We haven't seen the kind of action in the schools around us like I saw in Chicago, where clearly the agents were lurking around the grounds of the schools. School officials had to contemplate implementing a soft lockdown protocol when they heard that these agents were on their ground. Having safe corridors where you have small businesses, you have churches, and not for profits, give some level of protection and harbor to immigrants that may be afraid is also a good thing and something that we're considering developing.

Brian Lehrer: Last question, and then we have another guest who's going to share some breaking news about ICE being held accountable in at least one way by a court in Minnesota today, just this morning. How much do you think this is all about race, trying to keep America as white as possible?

Adriano Espaillat: Clearly, there's profiling going on, and that's racial. If you look a certain way, if you have an accent, if you speak a certain way, then they're going to stop you and question you and ask you for your papers. In its very core, the enforcement component is racial, ethnic driven. It's a profile system that I think violates the fundamental rights that should be offered to every resident and citizen of the country.

Yes, I believe it's a degree of that. We see the cities that are being targeted, Minneapolis, Minnesota, St. Paul's, Minnesota, Somalian community, Latino community. Chicago, you have a Mexican community and other ethnic groups. New Orleans, you have the Hondurans that went there after Katrina to rebuild the city. Now they're being targeted. Texas, of course, you have a very diverse Latino immigrant community. Clearly, there is a strategic plan from their perspective, from ICE perspective, to target certain communities that are ethnic and racial. As such, I think it is what you just said, Brain, that it is a plan to change America's look, its demographics, and turn it back in time.

Brian Lehrer: Congressman Adriano Espaillat, Democrat from upper Manhattan and parts of the Bronx, thank you very much for joining us today.

Adriano Espaillat: Thank you, Brian. Thank you for having me.

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