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Kousha Navidar: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Kousha Navidar, filling in for Brian today. Let's talk about retirement. Sometimes in the middle of your career, you really can't wait to retire, but as you approach retirement age, especially if you're dedicated to your career, it can be really hard to step away. After President Biden's shaky first debate, amid the many calls from Democrats to step aside, he was steadfast on staying in the race. Of course, that changed, and the public watched and debated and scrutinized while he went through the process of finally choosing to step away from the presidency. Aside from the political conversation, there is the very human conversation to be had about the challenges related to retiring, of stepping away from work, work which maybe you've poured your life into. According to the Center for Retirement Research at Boston College, the average age of retirement for men is 65, and for women, it's 63. According to an article from The Atlantic titled, "Retirement Gets Harder the Longer You Wait," if individuals stay longer and their identities are tied to their career, retiring may not just be hard, it might pose some health challenges of its own.

Charley Locke is the writer of that article whose work about elders and youth has also appeared in The New York Times Magazine and Bloomberg Businessweek. Charley is also sitting right across the desk from me right now. We're super happy to have you in the studio. Welcome to WNYC.

Charley Locke: Thank you so much for having me. It's my pleasure.

Kousha Navidar: You start your article talking about President Biden. In fact, why are people, like him, highly educated, successful, why are they so reticent to move on from or scale back in their careers?

Charley Locke: Yes, a lot of it is because as Americans, our identity is so wrapped up in what we do. It ties back to the question that you ask people when you meet them, right? What do you do? The fact that we answer that with a job means that when you step away from that job, particularly if your identity has been really tied up in that work, it can be really hard to have an identity beyond that, to think about who you are, and to find meaning in your life and self-worth beyond the job.

Kousha Navidar: It's funny, maybe a little bit ironic, I guess, because I would normally think that it's serving as President of the United States that can take-

Charley Locke: Yes, that's an interesting distinction.

Kousha Navidar: -a toll on someone's health [chuckles]. You're saying, or at least describing in the article, that it might be stepping away from the role that has its own health challenges. How's that?

Charley Locke: Yes. For people like Joe Biden and, in this story I talk about how, I'm talking about people, largely men who have a high level of education, who are working quite prestigious, ambitious jobs, and have been deriving a lot of identity from that for a long time, and have worked past traditional retirement age of 65. Men who are working in their 70s or 80s, it can be really hard to step away both in terms of identity, and also in terms of some real cognitive health challenges, in terms of routine, and the really important role that routine plays in how you spend your days, especially as you get older, and just in terms of how they move through the world, how they spend their days and how they find value.

We talk about in retirement more broadly, needing to have a really strong plan for what you're going to do all day. If you've done your career for many, many, many decades, like Joe Biden has, there's kind of this big expanse, once you step away of what you spend your time doing and how you take on value in your community, and also internally, how you think about yourself.

Kousha Navidar: That gender issue is interesting. You're saying that there is difference cutting across gender?

Charley Locke: Yes. This was really interesting to me when I talked to researchers about this for the story, because women generally, and all of this is really generalizing, but women generally are more likely to have stepped away from their career for caretaking responsibilities, whether that's to raise children or take care of parents or in laws or other loved ones. They also are often in heterosexual relationships, the person in the relationship who holds the social life of the couple, the one who remembers everyone's birthdays and makes plans for what they're going to do on the weekend, and keeps the social life, the social calendar going.

Women are also more likely to have had a history of volunteering really actively in their community, whether that's through a church or a temple or whether that's through volunteering at their kids' school or the local library. For a lot of women, their self identity is not only tied to their professional selves. When they step away from work in their 60s, or 70s, or 80s, they have these other facets of their identity that it's easier to lean into, but if you don't have very much to lean into, then you're more at a loss.

Kousha Navidar: I think you mentioned this yourself, Charley, that there is this generalization that we're talking about here, I wonder, does it cut across gender? Does it cut across level of perceived success as well? Because if we're talking about Biden in this context, I can think of a couple women who are also high-powered Democrats, also in their 80s, who do not or did not want to step away from their careers as well.

Charley Locke: Absolutely. Yes, yes. I think that's absolutely true. There are, like I said, this is really generalizing. I think that at the level of politicians who are taking on these roles, of course, there are plenty of women who are really high powered and really derive most of their identity from their careers who are facing this kind of challenge, too.

I also think it's really important to contextualize that most Americans who are still working late in life, it's not a choice for most Americans who are going through this. They are forced to do it, to work until they can't work anymore in order to keep providing for themselves. For many people, this question of identity doesn't ever really come up.

Kousha Navidar: Yet there is still a struggle with retirement before and after. It is this precipice in one's life journey. One thing you're saying, or at least I'm hearing, is that you're talking in the article about highly successful, often men, but this idea of retirement being a challenge for folks really goes all up and down the stack.

Charley Locke: Absolutely. Yes. I just think that the challenge changes depending on whether you have the privilege of getting to choose when you retire.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, have you had to struggle with the choice of whether or not to retire? What did that struggle look like for you, especially if you were or are currently in kind of a role that Charley's describing, the one that has taken a lot of work to achieve, and you don't want to step away. How are you thinking about retirement? Of course, as Charley says, retirement can be a challenge for everyone, but the challenge can look different for different people. What did that challenge look like for you?

Give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. We're here to talk about your thoughts on retirement. If you have already retired, do you regret it? Do you have advice? Give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. I'd love to go to a caller next. We've got Margaret in Toms River, New Jersey. Margaret, welcome to the show.

Margaret: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. This has been a topic of much discussion around my household. I retired six years ago. I worked for the Environmental Protection Agency in Washington, DC for 30 plus years. I was offered an early out during the beginning of the Trump administration. He really wanted to close EPA down, but I also didn't want to deal with his policies for four years, so I took it.

It was a time when my dad was not doing well, so my daughter and I relocated because she just graduated from high school. I'm an older parent. I relocated to New Jersey, to Toms River, to take care of dad. He passed away a couple of years ago when COVID hit and all of that. Then I was diagnosed with stomach cancer. My plan at retirement is to go back to graduate school, and get another master's degree in clinical mental health counseling, which never happened. Last fall or last summer, one of my former colleagues, said to me, "Margaret, did you ever go back to school," and I said, "No." I started thinking about it, and I realized it's now or never. I was 67, and I'm cancer free at this point, and I decided to start graduate school. I am now finishing my first year, my third semester in a master's degree in clinical mental health counseling. My daughter says that I failed at retirement.

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Kousha Navidar: Or maybe you are succeeding.

Charley Locke: Congratulations. Yes, it sounds like you're really succeeding. Finding a way that you want to spend your time and something that really lights you up, and a way to contribute to your community, that's so wonderful in your retirement.

Kousha Navidar: Margaret, thank you so much for sharing so much with us. It sounds like those six years have been a very jam packed six years. We're happy to hear that you're cancer free now, and congratulations on starting grad school there. Let's go to Barbara in Chelsea. We have Barbara on the line there. Barbara, hi. Welcome to the show.

Barbara: Yes, you do.

Kousha Navidar: Hi.

Barbara: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. I just wanted to say that my dad is 92, and he's still working. I thought for a while, and I used to say to him for a while, like, come on, dude, it's time, you know? Then what I came to realize is that in his case, anyway, I don't think it has to do with his identity or sort of not knowing what he would do with himself. He's got plenty of things he likes to do. The other thing is he loves his work, and I do think we have to just remember that some people choose to keep working because they love it.

Kousha Navidar: Barbara, thank you so much for it, for that call. Some people love it. I want to talk about the health risks a little bit more because I do see some texts in here that I think are important to acknowledge. One text says, "This whole conversation is about privilege," and another one says, "Insert sound of tiny violins to this whole discussion." I think it can be-- A challenge for some folks to see the challenges themselves of retirement, but there is a question of privilege that's wrapped up in this. Right, Charley?

Charley Locke: Yes, absolutely. Like I said, most Americans who are going through their professional lives are not afforded the choice of when to retire, and part of the society that we live in is that we don't have the kind of supports in place for older Americans, for everyone to be able to step away when they want to. I think it's far more common to face those kind of challenges, but I think this is really important to talk about because, like you said, a lot of the leaders, both in politics and in a lot of industry in America, are older and are going through this, and they have an outsized impact on the way that the rest of us live.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, and when we talk about challenges here, there is the challenge of after you retire, but there is the challenge of not being able to retire and how you think about work past the age when maybe some of your peers or other people that you see in society retiring were here for all of it. Give us a call. Send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Let's go to George in Brooklyn. Hi, George. Welcome to the show.

George: Hi. How's everybody doing?

Kousha Navidar: Wonderful, thanks. What's your experience with thinking about retirement?

George: Yes. I'm about to finish my 27th year of teaching. I still like the job. I'm not running for the exits, but I also don't want to get hit by a bus and turn around and say, oh, man, I didn't get to do the things I like to do. I totally understand that not everybody can retire. I'm not looking for violins here.

Kousha Navidar: George, thank you so much. What do you teach?

George: I teach social studies and special ed at Manhattan Comprehensive Night and Day High School in East Village.

Kousha Navidar: Wonderful. Thank you so much for that. George here is talking about not being able to do the things that he wants to do. How many people that you talked to in your research, Charley, talked about that being a reason that actually spurred them to retire faster.

Charley Locke: A ton of people, I think, especially during and after. I mean, we're still in the midst of COVID. The way that the conversations around COVID have prompted all of us to think differently about kind of the size and scope of our lives, and be aware of our mortality in a different way. I think it is prompting a lot of people to want to do the things they've always wanted to do right now, and especially spending time with the people that they love. A lot of the older people that I have talked to about retirement for this story and also for other stories I've written, particularly for The New York Times Magazine, there is often a desire to spend more time with their loved ones, with kids, with grandkids, with friends, while they really are still able to do that, and so for a lot of people, that's really the push into retirement.

Kousha Navidar: I want to bring up some listeners that are also taking issue with the idea of retirement and how we think about it. Of course, everybody who lives in the United States thinks about retirement in some way or another. There's a text here that says, "I find this segment to be very heterosexual, married, white-centric. I don't believe that it is true that all women of all sexualities and races were the homemaker being described. The generalities that we talk about with retirement or any moment of life don't apply to everyone." In your research here, Charley, what did identity play into with retirement? How were different portions of the population thinking about retirement differently?

Charley Locke: Yes, absolutely. Again, these are all generalizations, and I think often social scientists are studying big trends to try and make sense of how it will affect policy and affect the bigger ways that different generations are moving through the world. Of course, none of this is true of everyone, and I certainly don't mean to imply that.

Let's see. I think that often people who have kind of carved their own path are better at reckoning with what the next chapter is going to look like. I think that if you have been creating your own answers for what the balance is going to look like in your relationship, how the balance between your professional life and your family life, what that looks like, if you've been able to create that yourself and create that the way you want, then you have more experience creating the next chapter of your life that you want for yourself.

Kousha Navidar: We really appreciate all the listeners that are giving us their perspectives about what retirement does and does not look like in their lives, because this is one item of a person's life journey that takes on so many different shades. There is this sense of how to approach it that I think a lot of people think about.

We got this text here that says, "Does the guest have any suggestions for family members who want to approach or convince an older family member to retire, prioritize life away from professional work? What do those conversations look like?

Charley Locke: That's a really good question. I think the big thing to emphasize is to focus on the positives of the next phase of their life rather than pushing them away from something, and so creating excitement for all of the wonderful things that they are going to be able to do, whether that is travel or spending time with loved ones or, again, getting more involved in community organizations that they care about, being able to kind of invest in different areas of their life, rather than emphasizing that you need to move away from something, emphasizing what they're going to be moving towards.

Kousha Navidar: Thank you so much for that question from our listener. If you have a question for Charley Locke or you want to share your experience of what it was like, either retiring and now you regret it, or if you are thinking of even how to deal with retirement and you want to give your perspective, we're here for it. Give us a call. Send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433_WNYC. We've got Lamore in Astoria. Hi, Lamore. Welcome to the show.

Lamore: Hi. How are you? Thank you for taking my call. My dad is 90, and he is outlived all his life. He's on his fourth one. They've been married for eight years, and he's definitely not a guy of privilege, but he just firmly believes that you have to be doing something. I think he kind of has the winning formula because he firmly believes that you need to be in motion because he says there's nothing in the Bible that says they retired and sat down.

He works a couple hours a day, so he can come home and take a nap. He takes people back and forth to the doctor, and he's always busy doing, like he bought an RV two years ago because he always wanted one, and he wanted to drive down the East Coast. He got his stepson to help him. This year, he always wanted to go to Maine. He's got plans, and even though he's not a privileged person, he had that little part time gig that he has for a few hours. Gives him something to look forward to. It gets him out of bed, having waking up, [crosstalk]

Kousha Navidar: Lamore, let me ask you this. Does your dad's experience influence the way that you are thinking about your retirement journey?

Lamore: Absolutely, because I was the chef for 30 years, and I recently went back to school and got a master's in gastronomy because I'm sort of aged out or running around a kitchen. I've done that. I have no desire to. I've always been interested in writing about food from a sociological, historical, anthropological perspective. I've recently wrote the first couple drafts of a cookbook. I just want to be in a different space. I love to teach, and I do some teaching, but as far as like running around a kitchen, I'm aged out of that.

Kousha Navidar: Lamore, thank you so much for that call. Going to pause you there, but you bring up in a very important point about what you want to do next. Charley, I turn it back to you. There's this old adage that you shouldn't be retiring away from a career, but instead to something new, hopefully fulfilling. In your research, it sounds like that's true. Can you give a sense of how different individuals have found that successfully?

Charley Locke: Absolutely, and I think that Lamore's story about her dad and about being able to scale back his career to fit a different stage of life is a really wonderful way to think about that kind of transitioning away from a full career into something that fits a different time in your life. A lot of people see retirement as a firm line in the sand, as an all or nothing. You stop work one day, and then on Monday, you are never thinking about that work again, but it can be really valuable to instead transition away from work, whether that's doing less hours or whether that is stepping into more of an elder statesman or mentor type role where you're helping or consulting with people who are doing the work that you used to do. I think that having that sense of purpose and time commitment and clear value in a community that you're in can provide a lot of direction.

Kousha Navidar: I'm looking at the texts that are coming in right now. There are so many different perspectives, and a lot of it does run by age, and honestly, just the different perspectives that people have on their own lives. There's one text here that says, "I retired three years ago after running a small tax practice practice for nearly 30 years. I love retirement. I still wake up every day thrilled that my time is my own." That's wonderful to hear that this person enjoys their retirement. At the same time, somebody younger writes, "As a millennial, I don't think I'll ever have the chance to retire. I've had a lot of trouble holding a job despite hanging a master's degree. I fear that I'll be calling out on my deathbed or really struggling to make ends meet when I'm old enough to retire."

Charley, I'm sure you've talked to plenty of young people that think about retirement in the future being somewhat far away, but even seeming impossible, how has that perspective in younger folks shifted with retirement?

Charley Locke: Yes, I think it is hard for the millennial generation, and I'm a millennial, too. It's hard to think about what retirement is going to look like, what it can look like, but there is a lot of energy around changing what care looks like for older Americans, I think. It's an issue that we are all confronting now and will be confronting even more as the baby boomer generation ages over the next decade. I think that there's a lot of capacity to create the change that we want to experience when we get older, too.

Kousha Navidar: What do you think it says about our society that there are so many young people and so many individuals that are messaging us right now who actually say, enjoying retirement? What is retirement? What do you make of that?

Charley Locke: Honestly, it is a tough thing about America. I think that we do not provide the resources for people to be able to provide for themselves and for their loved ones if they are not contributing as workers. I think that we need to make changes that allow people to take care of themselves and take care of other people.

Kousha Navidar: Let's go to Yolanda in Manhattan. Hi, Yolanda. Welcome to the show.

Yolanda: Hi there. Thanks so much for taking my call. I am a surgeon, and I'm 55, and I just can't imagine stopping what I'm doing at 65. For one reason is that I'm a Black woman. I provide like a very unique type of procedure. People are coming from all over. so identity is definitely closely connected to what I do. Since I'm the only person that provides this type of service, I'm like, well, then who else is going to do it? I look at it as in the future, I might train somebody, I might slow down, but I just can't see myself stopping. Even with my father, he used to drive tractor trailers, and when he didn't do that anymore, he drove a taxi. Then, when he couldn't drive a taxi anymore, that was just it. Then I compared that to my mother, who was significantly younger than him. She took the early out. I think she did that because I don't see that she had, like her identity associated with what she was doing working for the federal government.

Kousha Navidar: Yolanda, for you, a lot of it is tied up in that sense of identity that you have, especially you as a surgeon, it sounds like.

Yolanda: Yes, with the identity. I didn't start medical school until I was 30, so even these younger people, I totally get how they feel. They feel like they're never going to retire, but it's not just about, I mean, it's a struggle being a doctor. We don't make money like we used to, but I do closely identified to what I do and what would I be doing?

Kousha Navidar: Yolanda, thank you so much for that call. Really appreciate it. Let's, let's go from a doctor to somebody else who sounds like they're newly retired. Samantha from Long island. Hi, Samantha.

Samantha: Hi. Yes, I'm 56, and I just retired in June from 34 years teaching kindergarten. Absolutely loved it. Gave it my heart and soul. Wound up never getting married or having children of my own, so I decided while I love the career, it's time for me to do life full time on a budget. I'm grateful for my pension. I guess everything has a plus side, not having children, although that was my dream. I don't have any colleges to pay for. I thought, you know what, while I'm young and healthy, let me go explore some of my side hobbies. Spend more time on that. Like I said, doing life full time on a budget.

Kousha Navidar: Samantha, thank you so much. As you were speaking, somebody else came in and texted, bring back pensions, which I think goes back to a conversation we were having. Right, Charley?

Charley Locke: Absolutely, yes. I think pensions are a really wonderful way of providing for people who have given a lot of themselves to a job and giving them a chance to devote themselves to other parts of their life once they reach a certain age, yes.

Kousha Navidar: I have to look at the clock here. We're wrapping up, and these calls have been so fantastic. There's more than we can get to both the calls and the text. For you, Charley, when do you think you know it's the right time to retire? If you can retire, how do you think about it in your own mind?

Charley Locke: Yes, great question. If you have the ability to retire financially and otherwise, I think that when you are feeling really excited about the other ways that you want to spend your time. I think that if you reach that point where you can logistically and financially for yourself retire, and you are really excited about filling up your life with other passions that hopefully you've been investing a lot of time into over your life so far.

Kousha Navidar: We'll have to pause it there. I've been talking to writer Charley Locke, whose article from The Atlantic is titled, "Retirement Gets Harder the Longer You Wait." Charley, thanks so much for coming on the show.

Charley Locke: Thank you very much for having me.

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