[The Brian Lehrer Show music]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Today, a tale of two Democratic primary debates. Nikole Hannah-Jones on the politics of colorblindness, and our Climate Story of the Week, which we do every Tuesday this week. Hello, single-family homeowners, we're talking to you. It's about how you mow your lawn. There were two major Democratic Primary debates in our area last night, if you haven't heard this yet, in New Jersey, between three candidates competing to succeed. Bob Menendez in the United States Senate, our own Michael Hill moderated the debate, and he'll be on with us later this hour.

In New York, between Congressman Jamaal Bowman and his challenger, the Westchester County Executive, George Latimer. We'll do the New York one first. Politico calls it likely the most contentious Democratic primary in the nation this year, and last night's debate certainly sounded like it. This is for the June 25th Primary in New York's 16th Congressional District, basically all of Westchester below the Tappan Zee Bridge, more or less, and a little bit of the North Bronx, including Co-op City. The incumbent is Congressman Jamaal Bowman, member of the squad, along with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and that handful of other squad members. The challenger is Westchester County Executive George Latimer, who's running as more of a centrist Democrat.

They disagreed substantively last night on issues including the Israel-Hamas war, police versus other kinds of funding to prevent crime, how each of their records overlaps with some Republicans in a few specific ways, and more. We'll play a few excerpts now. I invite you to call or text with your reactions and get analysis from two guests. The debate was on the News 12 cable channel in Westchester and the Bronx, and we have the moderator, their anchor and reporter, Tara Rosenblum, and we have Chris McKenna, political reporter for lohud.com, also known as The Journal News, which covers the northern suburbs of New York City. Tara, thanks for joining us on the day after you moderated. Chris, welcome back to WNYC.

Chris McKenna: Thank you, Brian.

Tara Rosenblum: Great to be with you. Thanks for having us.

Brian Lehrer: One of the things we like to do on this show, listeners, many of you know this, is take advantage of the fact that we have the luxury of time to play debate excerpts that are more than just 30-second sound bites. To that end, we will begin with a stretch from right near the beginning of the debate, the full answers when the candidates were asked for their basic takes on the Israel-Hamas war, and how they're consistent with the values of voters in the district, as I think how you asked it, Tara. You will hear also in this clip, Tara asked them each a follow-up question. This runs four and a half minutes and begins with the initial answer by County Executive Latimer.

George Latimer: I think it's important to understand that in this district, we have a diversity of population which includes one of the highest concentrations of Jewish residents. This issue of Israel means a lot to people in the 16th District in a very personal, direct way. My sense is a reasonable sense of where we are in a very controversial environment in the Middle East that dates back over many years, not just over the last couple of years. We've seen Israel created 75 years ago as a valid country. It has a right to exist, and it has a right to exist on defensible borders. It has a right to be able to grow and prosper as it has over this period of time. I do believe in a two-state solution.

I think there needs to be a country that is committed to peace if there's going to be a country alongside of it. That peace has been broken many times in the past. 1948, the War of Independence. 1967, the Six-Day War. 1973, the Yom Kippur War. The Intifada in the year 2000. All of those things are examples of where the peace was broken. Now we come to a position where we want to look for peace going to the future. It takes both sides to be committed to peace. Hamas in October 7th went over that borderline, viciously murdered people, and created a horrible situation in which they took hostages.

Any future for peace begins with the release of the hostages or the remains of the hostages. From that point forward, humanitarian aid, a cessation of hostility makes sense. It doesn't make sense if we're going to look at this as a one-sided issue, in an anti-Israel approach, which the incumbent has taken over this period of time. It matters in the district because it matters to people who live in this district.

Tara Rosenblum: Congressman Bowman, your response please?

Jamaal Bowman: I've said since 2019 I believe in the two-state solution and I believe in Israel's right to exist. I actually went to Israel way before October 7th to learn more about what's happening in Israel on the ground. I went to East Jerusalem. I went to the West Bank. I saw the Iron Dome. Probably the most moving experience I had when I was there is when I went to Yad Vashem and saw the Holocaust Museum. I've been working, since I've gotten in, to learn as much about this issue as possible so that we can work towards a two-state solution, not just give lip service to a two-state solution, which is what people have been doing for several decades.

Regarding the current situation, I align myself with Senator Chuck Schumer. Benjamin Netanyahu should not be the leader of Israel at this time. He is causing more harm to Israel than good. What's happening in Gaza, it's been taken to court because it may come up as being proof of war crimes against the people of Gaza. 100,000 dead or injured, the majority women and children. We have to speak out about that, because going after Hamas in this way is not going to end the cycle of conflict that has been going on for 75 years. We can have a free Palestine and fight anti-Semitism. That's what we need to do here, not just through rhetoric, but through education and connecting communities.

Tara Rosenblum: Congressman, let me ask you a quick follow-up before we head to some viewer questions. Do you believe when we're talking next steps-- You have stated that you are a vocal supporter of a two-state solution. Can there be a two-state solution in your mind as long as Hamas remains in control of any portion of Gaza?

Jamaal Bowman: No. No. Hamas needs to be condemned and immediately dealt with. No, there can't be, so we have to deal with them.

Tara Rosenblum: On the flip side, Mr. Latimer, can there be a two-state solution, if that is what you advocate, as long as Mr. Netanyahu remains in power?

George Latimer: I don't think it's a question of who's in power. I think the Israeli people need to see that they have a partner for peace. They don't see a partner for peace right now. I think the role that President Biden plays in all of this is an honest broker. Israel knows that it needs the United States as an ally. I have taken the position, I think it's the intelligent position for a future legislator to take, is to work through your legislative bodies and try to influence the president in that fashion, not to have 435 secretaries of state all commenting on every little nuance of this.

If Joe Biden understands, as I know he does, and the people around him, that this is going to take negotiation between the Israeli community, between the Arab community, those that are willing to negotiate with us, that is the surest direction to peace. Statements that are made outside of that may not be helpful. In fact, they may be counterproductive in the process.

Brian Lehrer: Bowman there from last night's debate. Tara, why did you lead with that topic after their opening statement?

Tara Rosenblum: Great question. I think above all else-- I've lived in this district now for 20 years. I'm a member of the community. People stop me everywhere I go, at the gas stations, at the grocery stores, to share their thoughts on this race and above all else. It was evident we took the direction with this debate editorially, that we wanted to have it be led by viewer questions. The overwhelming majority of questions that we received that were submitted to News 12 in the weeks leading up to the debate, they were all dealing with the fallout from the Israel-Hamas war.

We know that this has emerged as the crucial issue in this race. We know the national implications that the nation is watching to see the results of this and that ultimately, it could very well be a bellwether of how the issue, I said this during the debate, how it factors into the general election. We wanted to address the elephant in the room, if you will, right off the top of the debate.

Brian Lehrer: Chris McKenna, for you as a political reporter for The Journal News, lohud.com, it's really a whole different race than it might have been just seven months ago, before October 7th.

Chris McKenna: Yes, it's true. Even before October 7th, there was unhappiness with Congressman Bowman's statements about Israel. That really just went to a much higher level after October 7th. The AIPAC and Jewish constituents in the district had already been urging George Latimer to run. After October 7th, when that inflamed this issue so much, it really became the dominant issue in the race and the clearest contrast between Bowman and Latimer.

Brian Lehrer: We'll play a clip [crosstalk]

Tara Rosenblum: To piggyback--

Brian Lehrer: Oh, Tara, go ahead.

Tara Rosenblum: Sure.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Tara Rosenblum: Yes, to piggyback on that, I don't even know if we would be having this Primary if it wasn't for October 7th. Sources close to the campaign had been telling me George Latimer was very much on the fence. It could have gone either way. Then October 7th happened and that was the game changer for him to enter the race without a doubt.

Brian Lehrer: We'll play another clip in a minute where AIPAC, the Israel lobby, American Israel Public Affairs Committee, comes up in maybe a surprising way for people who haven't followed these politics very closely. I want to invite listeners in. Listeners, did you watch the Bowman-Latimer debate last night? Any reactions or questions, or just react to the clips you're hearing here for the first time if this is your first hearing of them. 212-433-WNYC. First priority, obviously, to people who live in the district, that part of Westchester, that part of the Bronx. 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692.

We're getting close enough to the Primary now, June 25th, that you can argue for your candidate too. George Latimer or Jamaal Bowman, or say why you're undecided at this one month plus out date. 212-433-WNYC. Call or text 212-433-9692. Chris, just on the clip that we played, one of the specific differences that emerged there, I think we heard in those answers, is that Bowman said the future should not include Hamas, but Latimer, when he was asked, would not say the future should not include Netanyahu. He basically said the leadership of Israel doesn't matter. How did you hear that?

Chris McKenna: Well, that caught my ear too, that he sidestepped that topic. What he was saying was that it's not the crux of the matter. The crux is not who's in charge in Israel, but any prime minister's ability to negotiate with someone on the other side. He clearly avoided criticizing Netanyahu.

Brian Lehrer: Tara, did you expect that? Is that why you asked the question that way, specifically asked Bowman whether a two-state solution future there can involve Hamas, and asked Latimer whether a two-state solution can involve Netanyahu?

Tara Rosenblum: Certainly. I knew what their positions were going into this debate. I wanted to get them because I hadn't heard them previously, in their past interviews, clarify that, next steps. We know that Bowman wants a permanent ceasefire, and he wants it now. Then what's going to happen? What's the how on how you bring this to a peaceful resolution? I wished that I had an hour more to spend on this one issue, but I was under such time constraints to get-- We had so many viewers that took the time to show up, and I knew we had so many other topics to get to.

If I had more time, I really wanted to get Congressman Bowman to clarify, "If you do not feel that a two-state solution can exist with Hamas still in control, then how do you get rid of Hamas without military action?" I, of course, didn't get the time to do that because we had to quickly pivot to other topics, but there's so many more rabbit holes.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Yes, because he's been calling for a permanent ceasefire. That's why you have asked it that way.

Tara Rosenblum: Exactly. I wanted to get into some more questions about the hostages, but I'm sure we'll catch up with them many more times on the campaign trail over the next month, and I'll get the opportunity to do that. Bowman was well aware going into this debate that he has this issue with Israel looming over him. I believe it's called Jews for Jamaal Group. Even they have privately in the past two weeks expressed concerns on some of his position. I did think that he softened some of the language there. You heard him talking about his visits to Yad Vashem. You heard him bringing up Chuck Schumer and things like that.

Still in these times, in these other portions, he also doubled down on some of the language. At the end of the day, whichever candidate you were supporting going into this debate, they made the case for you to support them walking out of it. I don't think either of them emerged as a clear winner on that one topic.

Brian Lehrer: One other specific distinction that you drew out. You asked them if, "River to the sea," that phrase is anti-Semitic. Latimer said yes, Bowman said no. Our next clip actually ties Middle East politics and the issue of abortion rights because that's how one of your viewers, Tara, asked the question. The challenge was to Latimer about taking money from AIPAC, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, the major pro-Israel lobby in the United States. The viewer framed the question around the fact that some leaders in the funding of AIPAC are also leaders in funding the anti-abortion movement. This begins with Latimer's response to that.

George Latimer: I think you're starting to question really embeds in it the cheap political attack that's been made on me by my opponent and his backers. I've been a supporter of abortion rights through the course of my career. We even passed in Westchester County clinic access law, which I signed into law. That is a concrete fact. My record as a state legislator proves the same thing. Now, here's the problem. When you talk about people's campaign donation, and you try to make a correlation to it, you need to look at all the campaign donations. My opponent has taken money from various PACs that have also supported Republican candidates. Isn't he as much in jeopardy of doing their bidding, as he accuses me of doing?

Jamaal Bowman: No.

George Latimer: Well, once again, you've interrupted my rebut. The bottom line is this, look at the actions of the individual. My actions prove who I am for 35 years and your actions prove that you have a lot of talk, not a lot of result.

Jamaal Bowman: You're a number one recipient of AIPAC money in the country.

George Latimer: Why do you think that is?

Jamaal Bowman: AIPAC is funded by right-wing Republicans who want to destroy our democracy.

George Latimer: AIPAC is--

Jamaal Bowman: Right-wing Republicans like Paul Singer and Bernie Marcus-

George Latimer: Is this his rebut time?

Jamaal Bowman: -who are attacking abortion rights across the country.

Tara Rosenblum: Are you using your time, Congressman?

Jamaal Bowman: This is my 90 seconds.

George Latimer: I would like my rebut time.

Jamaal Bowman: You could do your thing.

Tara Rosenblum: One at the time. I don't think it's productive if you speak over each other.

Jamaal Bowman: Take as much time as you want. I got you.

George Latimer: Well, thank you. I got you too. AIPAC supports Hakeem Jeffries, Greg Meng, Ritchie Torres, Adriano Espaillat and most of the Congressional Black Caucus. He would have you believe that AIPAC, which is in one particular policy area, support of Israel, which he does not support Israel, that's the basis for their support to me. My position on choice has been clear and consistent over a long period of time. He's striving mightily to create a record. If he had a stronger record as Congressman, he wouldn't have to attack me. He wouldn't even have to mention my name. The bottom line is he has a weak record as a Congressman, that's why he's attacking me.

Jamaal Bowman: It is Grace Meng and Greg Meeks. Okay. That's who you meant to refer to, number one. Number two, there's one candidate on this stage endorsed by Planned Parenthood, the number one abortion rights organization in the country. That is me.

George Latimer: There's one candidate endorsed by Westchester Coalition for Legal Abortion, one candidate.

Tara Rosenblum: Let's give him his time.

Jamaal Bowman: Do your thing.

Brian Lehrer: All right. So there another exchange between George Latimer and Jamaal Bowman in last night's Democratic Primary debate for the district that includes a lot of lower Westchester and a little bit of the northern Bronx, Co-op City and some other places around there. Our guests are Tara Rosenblum from News 12 who moderated the debate and Chris McKenna, political reporter for The Journal News. Well, there more than the first stretch, which was explicitly about the war, we got a sample, Tara, of the tone that a lot of the debate took both ways.

Tara Rosenblum: What's so funny for me is that when I was preparing for this debate, I really, to be honest, I expected the fireworks and some explosive exchanges on Israel and the fallout from the war. Then the most rowdy parts of the debate went on to include public safety and abortion rights and infrastructure. I was not expecting that, but certainly, this was one of the more explosive moments of the debate. What's so ironic is that this was a fire exchange, but at the end of the day, these two candidates are pretty much aligned on their positions when it comes to abortion.

I think people forget Leticia James, who is considered a more progressive lawmaker here in New York, when she was running for Governor, she was looking potentially at George Latimer as a front runner to be her running mate as Lieutenant Governor. I think that these two men are so aligned on this issue that it was interesting that there were fireworks there. When it comes to AIPAC, Bowman's strategy-- Again, I live in the district. I get all of his mailings and all of the texts. He has gone out of his way to portray AIPAC as the three-headed monster in this race and play that up as a negative that George Latimer is taking money from this organization.

I think George Latimer did effectively point out that, "Hey, this is not only Republicans that give money to AIPAC. There's a lot of Democrats." I think the strongest remark he made was when he said members of the Congressional Black Caucus are supported by AIPAC as well. Chris, do you agree with that?

Chris McKenna: Yes. They've been batting this one around for a while now. As you say, their positions are very similar. It's cast as a race between a progressive and a centrist, but Latimer is pretty, fairly, progressive. He certainly defends his progressive credentials. They're both strong advocates for abortion rights. There's no difference there. What Bowman and his allies have tried to do is turn the funding that Latimer has gotten through AIPAC. These are individual donors making their contributions to him through the AIPAC portal. What Bowman's side has tried to do is use that to cast out on Latimer's future loyalty to Democratic positions given that AIPAC has Republican mega-donors supporting the organization.

It's a bank shot. Latimer got very testy about that. The fact that he's gotten donations through this group and that he's endorsed by AIPAC doesn't mean he's suddenly going to adopt Republican positions.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a caller who supports Latimer and then a caller who supports Bowman. We'll take Anne in Westchester first who I think is going to refer to receiving some of those mailers that, Tara, you were just referring to. Anne, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Anne: Hi. Thank you so much. Tara, you did a great job last night. You refer to the mailers talking about AIPAC as being this three-headed monster. What they do is really treat Latimer as the three-headed monster. One of them put DeSantis, Cruz and Trump, and Latimer's picture on it and the other one dealt with abortion rights and tying George Latimer to anti-abortion groups. Now, no one in the district realistically thinks that George Latimer, who has a 30 year career, can be bought. More importantly, what I found with Bowman, I was really shocked.

I got these mailers from Justice Democrats APAC, by the way, and I expected Bowman to disavow this below-the-belt attack on Latimer, but instead he doubled down. He's behind everything that Justice Democrats are doing. I just want to also point out that he's less than honest, not only in these mailers, but after September 11th, until I think as recently as maybe 2010 or '11, he was denying that 9/11 happened. In November of last year, he denied the rape of women in Israel. At a rally for Palestine, he said, "These are just rumors." He has on his website claims, and he claimed last, night that he's brought $1 billion back into the district.

Politico put out an article about that. They say Hakeem Jeffries doesn't even claim. Tara, you referred to that in the debate. Hakeem Jeffries claims that he's brought $22 million back to his district. If you do the math, Bowman who voted against the infrastructure bill and really hasn't brought-- I think he had one bill that had to do with names or something, but nothing really about money. He hasn't spearheaded bringing money back to the district. You can add up things. I'll let you go, but he is--

Brian Lehrer: Let me jump in. You put a lot on the table there. That's fine. I want to fact-check at least one thing there. Chris McKenna, did Jamaal Bowman ever claim that 9/11 didn't happen?

Chris McKenna: I haven't reported that myself. Now, I know there was another outlet found, a blog that he had kept maybe 10 years ago in which he apparently repeated some 9/11 conspiracy. I haven't seen it myself and I don't know whether it still exists.

Brian Lehrer: Tara, you don't have anything on that, right?

Tara Rosenblum: Well, I know CNN has reported on that, and at one point they reported that he apologized, or regretted, for blog posts that seemed to push other people's unfounded conspiracy theories about 9/11. I don't believe that I have read anywhere or have heard him at any point say it directly from himself, other than sharing other people spewing that.

Brian Lehrer: Okay. We heard from a Latimer supporter there. Now I think we have a Jamaal Bowman supporter. Marty in Yonkers, you're on WNYC. Hi, Marty. Thank you for calling in.

Marty: Hi. We are relatively new here. We've only been here for a few years, and so I decided to educate myself. I went to different civic events with each one of these gentlemen. I found Jamaal Bowman, first of all, he was accessible and he was accessible to people in the community. He went and spoke at the library to help with housing in downtown Yonkers. There's a huge problem with housing and Yonkers and I don't want to go into it, but he actually was addressing people's issues. He went to the buildings unannounced so that he could actually see what was going on in these buildings and I was very impressed by that.

I went to another event about the Hudson River and I heard Jamaal Bowman. I was like, "Wow. Okay. He's a principal." He was a principal at school and he seems like he can hold two thoughts in his head at the same time. Then I heard George Latimer who said, "Well, I'm really glad that I'm County Executive because that means I don't have to compromise. I can just say what I want, done." I thought, "Well, that sounds pretty nasty, but whatever." Then I found out that we have had a solar project that they've been trying to get off in our area for years.

All of a sudden, George Latimer is running and he says, "Oh, yes. We're going to put that into action," after it's been sitting for 20 years. He never even spoke to the people who have been working behind the scenes to get this solar project happening. He just hits me as somebody who just, "Yes, I'll do this because I'm running." He also doesn't seem like someone that you can go to and say, "You're in Congress now, palsy, and it's about the art of compromise and you're going to have to do that." If I had a problem, I would go to Jamaal Bowman who seems to me to listen and actually wants to take action.

Brian Lehrer: Marty, thank you very much. All right. We've heard from a Bowman supporter. We've heard from a Latimer supporter. We'll take a few more calls as we go and we have two more clips from last night's debate to play. Stay with us. Brian Lehrer on WNYC.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. As we continue to play some excerpts from, and get analysis of, and your reactions to the George Latimer/Jamaal Bowman Democratic Primary debate for the 16th Congressional District last night, the district covering most of Southern Westchester and a bit of the Northern Bronx. This, as our guest, Tara Rosenblum, who moderated the debate for News 12, said earlier is being very closely watched as a bellwether not just for some other Democratic Primaries but also for the general election in November because of the way the Middle East issue is playing out between the two of them, especially. A very, very important New York Congressional primary here right now.

Our guests are Tara Rosenblum from News 12 who moderated last night and Chris McKenna, political reporter for loha.com. That is The Journal News for those of you who read the print edition. Next clip. This is on the issue of public safety and it came from a high school student. The question came from a high school student in the studio audience named Lucas Perez, who said he's afraid to ride the subways. Bowman got the first answer to Lucas's question. You'll hear part of their exchange.

Jamaal Bowman: We need to take a public health approach to public safety. We take a public health approach to our overall governance. Now, what does that look like? We have to deal with the issue of poverty and abject poverty in our communities. Our communities have been historically neglected, and as a result, we don't have the economic development and access and opportunity to the American Dream because of redlining of our communities and poverty. We need to invest in mental health supports. We need to invest in substance abuse. We need to invest in education. We need to invest in workforce development.

If we invest in these things which we have done multiple times across the district, whether it's $700,000 to the YWCA in Yonkers, or another several hundred thousand dollars to the Hope Program in the Bronx, we've invested in programs for workforce development and mental health. Westchester Youth Shelter is another program we've invested in. That's the approach, public health approach to public safety. My opponent, unfortunately, has defunded mental health over his time as County Executive and he doesn't see a public health approach as the right way to go.

Tara Rosenblum: County Executive Latimer, go ahead. What would you do to make our neighborhood safer?

George Latimer: My opponent doesn't know his facts. Lucas, the problem that you have is the same problem I had back in the mid-1970s. I worked in the Bronx at the time, I lived in Mount Vernon and I had a graduate school program down at NYU. I rode the subway, the D train from the Bronx down to Manhattan. Then I took the Number 2 train all the way back up to 241st Street. I had the same concerns you had then. For all of the programs that we have to do, the public health elements, and so forth, he said nothing in his comment about the police presence. He ignored the police presence. How can you ignore the police presence?

I've seen in the Bronx, in the 47th Precinct and the 45th Precinct, additional police effort that works in harmony with the community and is able to represent a better way to keep people a sense of protection. That's why Co-op City is seen as one of the most safe sections of the Bronx. Because there is a police working, but you need to fund the police. That's what I've done in Westchester County. We've fully funded the police, and that is a factor in why violent crimes are down in Westchester County. We have also, contrary to his false facts, supported a host of different programs and services.

We've been able to build Memorial Field back in the Sprain Ridge pools, public efforts that make people have recreational options instead of just hanging out on the street and potentially going in the best direction. Lucas, it's going to take a multifaceted approach, but you cannot have that approach unless you're prepared to fund public safety. He voted no in a bill that would've funded local small police department H.R. 6418, and when he voted no, he voted alongside Marjorie Taylor Greene in voting no on that bill.

Tara Rosenblum: Thank you, Mr. Latimer. [crosstalk] Let's have you finish your thought.

George Latimer: Thank you.

Tara Rosenblum: Thank you.

Jamaal Bowman: Could I have a rebut to that?

Tara Rosenblum: Go ahead. 30 seconds, Congressman.

Jamaal Bowman: Absolutely. The County Executive just mentioned he had the same challenges and fears and issues in the 1970s as you have right now, even though we have dramatically increased police funding over the last several decades. Within that decade, those decades, that period of time, we still have the same challenges because all we've been doing is funding police.

Brian Lehrer: Bowman and Latimer on public safety. A three-minute clip as we continue to use the luxury of time that we have on this show to play things that are more than sound bites. Listeners, we hope that's serving you to hear little more robust versions of these exchanges that they had in the debate, especially in case you didn't see the debate. Tara, that was another area where, I imagine, you knew when you had that teenager ask the question what you were going to get in terms of differences on police funding, right?

Tara Rosenblum: Absolutely. What I didn't expect was how fiery this portion of the debate came. Another minute after that-- Actually, I can't remember the exact duration, but it was piggybacking on the topic of gun violence was one of the fieriest moments of the entire debate where I almost had to pull out my angry mom voice to reign it back in.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, I think I know the moment that you're referring to, and we're going to play that exact moment-

Tara Rosenblum: Oh, you are.

Brian Lehrer: -in a couple of minutes.

Tara Rosenblum: For me, this was the most dramatic portions of the entire debate, discussing this issue. Even Marjorie Taylor Greene made an appearance in this part of the debate, which surprised me as well. She came up a few times in the debate. He was accused of-- Bowman has been-- His opponents and his critics have accused him of defunding and not supporting policing, and obviously George Latimer is on the other side of the equation and tried to point that out. I think, overall, I loved hearing the feedback on this topic because the latest polling out, there was one poll that was made public showed George Latimer ahead 17 points in this race.

I think people forget the support that Bowman has and that he's been elected twice in this district. You heard it from one of your viewers that just called it now. People are obviously very supportive of Bowman's stances on this issue.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Some supportive of Bowman, some supportive of Latimer. I wonder, to that point, Chris, the point that Tara was just making whether in this answer, and I think in some other answers, they were basically playing to their basis. Maybe not necessarily even trying to convince a lot of undecided voters but on something that seems to divide people a lot, whether the police should be funded more or funded less. They were each being pretty unequivocal about where they stood, and I wonder if that's more of a turnout strategy, as you see it as a political reporter, than a persuasion strategy on both sides.

Chris McKenna: I think that's true, and I think it was also just a genuine reflection of where they are. This was one topic in which, despite what I said earlier, the progressive centrist dichotomy pertains. They both support spending on anti-poverty programs, on mental health treatment, and alternatives to law enforcement. You could hear in their answers, only George Latimer was saying policing is a big part of this. I think that's a reflection of where they are in addition to them speaking to the people they want to turn out in June.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to play that last fiery clip, which is definitely getting news coverage, in just a second. Let me get one more Latimer supporter, one more Bowman supporter on the phones first. Scott in Hartsdale, who I think was at the debate last night and actually got to ask a question. Scott, do I have that right? Hi, you're on WNYC.

Scott: Hi. Thank you. Yes, that was right. In the clip you just played, you heard County Executive Latimer reference a Bill H.R.6408. Later on in the debate, I asked Representative Bowman to clarify his no vote on H.R.6408, and I found that his answer not only was dishonest but misrepresented the bill. The bill is very simple. It simply says that if the Secretary of State deems an organization to be a terrorist-supporting organization, they'll be stripped of their tax-exempt status. The Representative in his response invoked a whole bunch of reasons for why he voted against them.

Sadly, none of them were actually present in the bill. I agree there's been a lot of bombastic language used in this election, but I think you will find the voters in the district are actually pretty laser-focused on Representative Bowman's record. That record is why many of us support County Executive George Latimer.

Brian Lehrer: Scott, thank you very much. Tara, is that clear to you what Scott was referring to there about that bill? Can you fact-check whether his fact-check was accurate?

Tara Rosenblum: I don't have that information on me right now, but Scott, did you feel like your question got answered there at the end?

Scott: To be honest, no, and Tara, I think you did a wonderful job moderating in the room. It was very testing. I think you did an excellent job. I think that when it comes to these very easy votes, like the H.R.6408 or some other votes, or Representative Bowman has been an outlier, no vote, away from the Democratic party. Assisting Afghan refugees, a counter-terrorism partnership program in Trans Africa sanctions on Libyan terrorist activity. These no votes, for many of us in the district, have become confusing with his stances. As listeners look into H.R.6408 or some of those other votes that Representative Bowman has made, you'll find that the rhetoric of the response doesn't match the language of the bill.

Brian Lehrer: We'll have to follow up on that because I definitely do not have those details. We're going to take one more Bowman supporter, as I said, but I'm actually going to play that last clip first because, Tara, I know we're going to lose you in a couple of minutes, and I want to get your reaction to this. This starts after Bowman says, "Latimer had said gun violence is not a big problem in the district," which Latimer denies saying. Another one to fact check. As you'll hear listeners, it became about more than that.

George Latimer: I'm the person on the second day of the job who took the gun show out of the county center. That's a productive, active step. I voted in the state senate for the Safe Act, which limited what could be sold in weapons, so he's talking soup.

Jamaal Bowman: That's two things. You've been in office 35 years, you've been a County Executive seven years you've. The gun violence that happens in our district comes from guns that are trafficked into our district [unintelligible 00:39:18] [crosstalk]

Tara Rosenblum: Mr. Latimer.

George Latimer: Do you see why he's an ineffective Congressman?

Jamaal Bowman: Why?

George Latimer: He argues--

Jamaal Bowman: Because I argue my point?

George Latimer: Because you--

Jamaal Bowman: The people that are here understand passion. They know that we need passion in this moment.

George Latimer: You need to be able-- [crosstalk]

Jamaal Bowman: You want to go to Washington and play nice with Marjorie Taylor Greene?

George Latimer: You vote with her, so why shouldn't you play nice with her?

Jamaal Bowman: Come on, now.

George Latimer: Here's the point, and I like to make it, Madam Moderator, without his interruption. When you work in a legislative body, you need to form coalitions with people. You need to have their respect, you need to talk to them as normal people. You can't preach and scream at them on the steps of the capitol.

Tara Rosenblum: Okay--

George Latimer: He's ineffective as a Congressman-

Tara Rosenblum: I've got to rein this in, gentlemen.

George Latimer: -for this very reason that you just said.

Tara Rosenblum: We're going to have a lot of disappointed viewers if I don't rein this in.

Jamaal Bowman: The angry Black man.

Tara Rosenblum: [unintelligible 00:39:59]

Jamaal Bowman: The angry Black man.

Tara Rosenblum: Let's stay on topic, please.

Jamaal Bowman: It's the southern strategy in the North.

Tara Rosenblum: Let's stay on topic. We have a question now.

Jamaal Bowman: They expect us to be quiet about it. We're not going to be quiet about it.

Tara Rosenblum: Let's stay on topic.

Brian Lehrer: Tara, I know you got to go in 30 seconds, so any last thing you want to say?

Tara Rosenblum: What a way to end our-- I'm sure you're not envious of the job, the task that was at hand yesterday, keeping this debate on the debate train tracks. It wasn't easy, I will tell you. That moment to me, above all else, was the moment that I've heard the most feedback from our viewers. It really speaks to how emotionally charged, how heated, how contentious this race has come between these two gentlemen. Two very well-known faces to our voters in Westchester and the Bronx. It also spoke to how much these two men do not like each other, personally, professionally, politically.

It was a fiery moment, and then the sparks extended even outside our debate hole. I'm not sure, Brian, if you got word yet about this, but there's this whole scuttlebutt that happens outside where one of Bowman's supporters alleges that he was assaulted by a Latimer supporter. There were dueling press releases, were the latest one I saw before I went to bed last night. Latimer's team put out a statement suggesting that this was possibly a paid agitator that was paid to go and create chaos outside the debate hall. The whole thing, it's just a microcosm of what's going on politically across the United States right now, frankly.

Brian Lehrer: I've moderated some contentious debates myself, and I thought you did an excellent job last night. Tara Rosenblum, who moderated the News 12 Debate between Latimer and Bowman. Thank you very much for giving us some time on this morning after. I know you have to go.

Tara Rosenblum: Brian, you do a great job, and Chris, your team has done an amazing job covering this race. I'm grateful you included me in your show today.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Now Chris McKenna from The Journal News is going to stay with us for just another couple of minutes. Tara had to go, and I did say, I'm going to get in one more Bowman supporter caller to keep it even. Noah in Peekskill. You're on WNYC. Hi, Noah. Thank you for calling in.

Noah: Oh, thank you, Brian, for everything you do. I wanted to speak on what George Latimer was saying about Representative Bowman being all rhetoric. I think he's completely missing the mark. Often Representative Bowman is speaking on issues that we don't have a lot of people in Washington having enough moral courage to speak on. Whether it be the immediate ceasefire in Gaza, when most Democrats were afraid to say those words at the time. Then secondly, during the debate, he had mentioned the lack of economic development where these migrants are coming from.

Oftentimes they're trying to figure out how to stem the flow of migrants, but we rarely discuss why the migrants are coming. Representative Bowman is one of those people who understands that in order for us to find the solutions that we're trying to solve, we're going to need to speak on the harsh truths. I think George Latimer is one of those people that is going to tell you what you want to hear, but Jamaal Bowman's going to tell you what you need to hear.

Brian Lehrer: Noah, thank you very much. A closing thought from you, Chris, as we come to the end of this section, hopefully playing four extended debate clips from last night will help inform listeners, especially in the district who may not have gotten to see the debate. Not everybody has cable these days, for example, and just everyone else as well, because this debate is being more closely watched than any other Democratic Congressional Primary right now, according to a lot of the reporting that I've seen. Chris, where does it go from here between now and the Primary on June 25th?

Chris McKenna: I just want to say one thing about that last clip that you played, which was really, for me, the most striking moment of the debate because it-- They presented themselves as really people with two different approaches to Congress and to being a Congressperson. Latimer from the outset has emphasized his style as a nuts and bolts guy. He's into the minutia of legislating and working with people to get practical results and contrasted that with Jamaal Bowman's outspoken style. What you heard in that clip was, after months of this kind of rhetoric Bowman standing up and saying that this portrayal of me as somebody shouting on the steps of the capitol, is playing into racial stereotypes.

That was a new response that he's had to that line of criticism. He also said for the first time that-- I heard him give a defense of rhetoric, of stirring speeches. He said that that's important. That's part of being a Congressperson in addition to results. It framed them as two-- It really set up what the contrast is in how they look at the job.

Brian Lehrer: Chris McKenna from The Journal News at lohud.com. Thank you for joining us today.

Chris McKenna: Thank you, Brian.

 

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