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Tiffany Hansen: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Tiffany Hansen in for Brian today. Today is Governor Phil Murphy's last day in office, and New Jersey Governor-Elect Mikie Sherrill will be sworn in tomorrow. Last week, Governor Murphy gave his final state of the state address, using it to highlight what he sees as his education legacy. Many of those priorities are expected to carry over under Sherrill. That's not to say that the incoming governor hasn't already started to put her stamp on education policy. We'll dig into public education in New Jersey now and what's likely to change with Jessie Gomez, a reporter at Chalkbeat. Hi, Jessie.

Jessie Gomez: Hey, how are you, Tiffany?

Tiffany Hansen: I'm doing all right. Let's talk about one of the first moves from Incoming Governor Sherrill, putting her stamp on education with her pick for education commissioner. Sherrill announced on Friday that Lily Laux is the incoming commissioner. Maybe give us a little background on her and tell us what signal this gives us on where Sherrill's education policies might start to lead.

Jessie Gomez: Absolutely. Definitely in a very late Friday afternoon move, Governor-Elect Mikie Sherrill announced Lily Laux as her new pick to lead the state's education department. Obviously, some bureaucracy still needs to happen for her to actually take her role. But we do know that she is a former deputy commissioner from the Texas Education Agency, which is the equivalent of the Department of Education here in New Jersey. We've known that she's worked in the public school system. She has experience in, you know, K through 12 education. According to the state, she is specifically going to tackle-- If she gets the role, she'll tackle literacy outcomes, help expand early childhood education, pre K, increase mental health resources, all of the things that Governor-Elect Mikie Sherrill has already echoed and said and prioritized during her campaign trial. I guess moving forward, we can probably expect more of those initiatives from Sherrill administration.

Tiffany Hansen: You said if she's confirmed. I mean, you don't see any real issue there, right?

Jessie Gomez: No, not at the moment, but bureaucracy.

Tiffany Hansen: Bureaucracy, as always. Listeners, of course, Jessie and I would love for you to join this conversation about New Jersey education policy now that we see incoming Governor-Elect Mikie Sherrill making some choices as it, as it pertains to education in the state. If you live in New Jersey, have kids in the public school system, we want to hear from you. Do you feel Governor Murphy made real progress? Was he right in the State of the State address, saying that he had a legacy that he could stand up and be proud of around education. Of course, educators, we know you're off today.

We, of course, want to hear from you as well. Are you hoping for a shift? What's the top issue for you? If you're a Newark in particular, that district has been few been through decades of upheaval. We'd love to hear from you as well. Of course, call us, text us 212-433-9692. Again, that's 212-433-96929. Jessie, let's just backpedal a little bit here and talk about Murphy's legacy. He was touting it. The outgoing governor said he, you know, listed off a laundry list of things during the state of the state. What were they, and what is his legacy?

Jessie Gomez: Yes, definitely. I think that's a big question. He's marking the end of his eight years-- two-term Democrat governor. Last week, he really touted his big education initiatives like expanding full-day kindergarten, increasing school state aid to districts, including Newark, which saw a record high number of state aid for this school year's budget. Murphy also touted fully financing the school funding formula, although there are still some caveats to that. And then of course, his most recent and one of his final legislations was to adopt phone-free schools across the state, which has been having educators, parents, and students talking for a while now.

Tiffany Hansen: Bring us up to date on what that actually requires that districts do. What does it leave up to local control?

Jessie Gomez: Yes, definitely. I think what like you said, what sets this policy apart from others is, although we are calling this a ban, it does direct school districts specifically to adopt their own policies on what a phone-free school will look like for them. That's different from New York's legislation as well, where the mandate was to ban phones across all schools, period. Here, we're seeing that school districts have a little bit more flexibility to purchase storage systems. Some schools might purchase a pouch there. There's a pouch called a yonder pouch that students can drop their phones in, or perhaps the school district might purchase lockers or find some other solution that works for them.

Again, school districts have to create this policy that limits the use of cell phones during instructional hours. But of course, the districts also have to plan for emergencies. When can students use their phones in case of an emergency? Or if the student has their phone to track medication or some other exception to this rule. The task is for school districts to figure this out. The state last week issued some guidelines, not very strict guidelines, but this is what they should keep in mind as they're crafting this. How Sherrill's administration will implement this, I think, is the bigger question here too.

Tiffany Hansen: One of the things these districts have to figure out is how to pay for all of this. These bell-to-bell, as they're called, phone bans can be expensive. You're talking about storage systems, you're talking about pouches. All of that costs money. How are the districts planning on paying for this?

Jessie Gomez: Murphy, in December, he awarded 86 school districts grants under the Phone Free Schools grant program. This was a $3 million appropriation in the fiscal year 2026 budget. As of right now, today, January 19th, only 86 districts have this funding.

Tiffany Hansen: Out of how many?

Jessie Gomez: Not too many. We have 600 school districts, upwards of 600 school districts.

Tiffany Hansen: 86 out of 600.

Jessie Gomez: Yes. To put it in perspective, Newark public schools, the state's largest district, they're going to receive $176,000 to purchase a storage system. Like you said, it's expensive. All of this will cost. There might be even enforcement costs down the line. But again, what Sherrill does and how she implements this and helps school districts in this process, especially during the first few months, will be interesting to see.

Tiffany Hansen: Just out of curiosity, are these 86 schools poorer districts, by and large, and is that indicative of the difference that will cost between a poorer district versus a district that has more disposable income for these locking pouches, storage systems? What disparity are we going to see there? Was this somewhat of an effort to try to address that?

Jessie Gomez: We still don't know much about how exactly the funds will be dispersed. But we do know that if we're looking at more affluent communities, comparing it to, let's say, Newark, yes, Newark public schools did receive the largest chunk of that grant money, but also they have upwards of 40,000 students, perhaps in A school district, let's say, like in Morris county, where there are not as many students. We're going to see a lot less funding.

Yes, in terms of the funding amounts, they were all different across the board, and they were all basically based on the needs of what the school district said. School districts had applied for this grant program, and they basically had to opt in to adopt phone-free policies. Mind you, this was before Murphy actually passes legislation just a couple of weeks ago. At the point in time when school districts applied for the grant, they were being one of the first to sign on to this phone-free policies law, basically.

Tiffany Hansen: Before we jump off of Murphy and head over to the incoming Governor. You mentioned that the outgoing Governor Murphy made funding a major priority of his administration. It's a little divisive. There's a source of tension here around how New Jersey's schools are funded. Very briefly, for folks who don't know how-- Explain how New Jersey's school funding formula works.

Jessie Gomez: It's a doozy, but stay with me. New Jersey uses a state formula basically to decide how much money public school districts get, but that's totally different across all school districts because every community has its own set of property value, property taxes that will contribute into to schools. According to the formula, basically, we start with a base cost for educating one student. X amount will give a student a proper education.

What the formula then will take into account is extra funding for students who need the support, or maybe an English language learner needs an aide to help them during class time, or perhaps a student with a disability needs therapy or other accommodations to get into a school. All of those are extra costs for the school district, and so the state definitely says, at that point, "We will help you and provide more money for you to supplement those costs." But the idea is that if a district is more affluent or is more wealthier, then the local community can contribute to schools through property taxes.

In Newark, for example, that's a little bit difficult because property taxes are not as high as perhaps, again, counties in more and more county or other areas in Essex County as well. That's where we get into the dilemma of school funding might be uneven. That's what we're hearing from some cool school districts that they're still not fully funded, even though Murphy has contributed over the last eight years to the funding formula.

Tiffany Hansen: Oof, incoming Governor Mikie Sherrill has said that she wants to modernize this funding formula. What does that mean?

Jessie Gomez: I think it's going to be a challenge. I think over the years, we've also seen attempts to modernize the funding formula. Basically, the question is, how do we get all school districts to get what they need to serve students? We are seeing across school districts enrollment fluxes. Some school districts are seeing less students, so that means less state funding.

A very few are seeing more students. In Newark public schools, they are seeing a rise in enrollment. But even then, the number of students that are rising are English language learners, students with disabilities. Again, those students that require that extra cost. When we talk about modernizing the formula, the state also has to take into consideration how do we provide equity among school districts when not all school districts serve the same amount of students who require those extra supports? It's a challenge not only about equity and about looking at property taxes, but it's also about considering how much does it actually cost to educate a student, considering all these caveats and special circumstances.

Tiffany Hansen: I just want to circle back to the phone thing because another thing that the incoming governor has said-- She hasn't really said this, but I'm curious whether she will offer more specific guidance on this cell phone policy, because as you said, to your point, it's a little squishy right now about what districts can do. Do we see her making some more uniform policy, making it a little more specific for schools? How do you see her moving on that?

Jessie Gomez: I think right now, the guidance that we got from the Education Department is pretty set in terms of what the district has to abide by or what they have to follow as they create these policies. The Education Department had said the guidelines serve as a roadmap to help school districts create safer environments and more focused learning environments, which is great. I think the big question a lot of folks on the ground, especially parents, are having is, how will schools enforce this? How will the state ensure that schools are following this?

There are concerns about when my child can use a phone during emergency situations. How will each school district tackle that? There are also concerns in case a student uses this for medication. How will the schools allow for that? What is the process? Those very nitty-gritty processes in this policy haven't been really addressed by the state. We know the overall goal, but we still don't know the specifics and nitty-gritties of how this will be tackled. Sherrill's administration will probably have to deal with enforcement. But so far we haven't heard much yet.

Tiffany Hansen: We are talking about public education in New Jersey now that we have a new governor coming in as of tomorrow, Governor-Elect Mikie Sherrill. What will happen under the incoming Sherrill administration in terms of public education? Jessie Gomez is with us to discuss. She is a reporter at Chalkbeat. Listeners, of course, we want you in this conversation. Are you a parent in New Jersey? Are you a teacher in New Jersey? What issues do you see as top issues for the incoming governor? 212-433-9692. You can call us. You can text us at that number. Jessie, let's bring Tim in Milburn into the conversation. Hi, Tim.

Tim: Hello there.

Tiffany Hansen: You had a question?

Tim: Yes. I'm a parent and a teacher, and as a public school teacher, I think by far the most important issue is reforming the pension system. Pension justice is, as it's known, we had a very fair pension system until 2010, when Governor Chris Christie, basically out of spite and because he didn't want to raise the gas tax, which he raised anyway, made it extremely unequal for any teachers, particularly hired after 2010. The only reason that's going to happen is if every teacher joins the union and every teacher pushes for that as the first priority. It's doable, but only if everyone sticks together. That's by far the most important issue for teachers.

Tiffany Hansen: Tim, thanks for the call. Jessie, have we heard the incoming governor say anything about pensions?

Jessie Gomez: We know historically from her track record, too, in Congress that she does have an interest in protecting employees' pensions and has talked about pensions outside of education and just in general as a worker issue. I think again how she prioritizes this now as Governor, especially for teachers, is definitely a wait and see. Again, to put this all into perspective, when it comes to education, we haven't heard much yet from Sherrill.

We've heard on the campaign trail some of the things that she supports and some of the policies that she was in line with Murphy's administration as well. The nitty-gritty of what she'll do in terms of tackling specific issues, I mean, pension is obviously a really big one for teachers, we still have to wait and see.

Tiffany Hansen: Other outstanding issues are aging school buildings, uneven student performance, the lingering effects of the pandemic, those funding inequities we've been talking about. She's got a lot on her plate.

Jessie Gomez: Yes, it's a lot on her plate. Governor Murphy, who's now out the way on his door, said that she is in a great place. But there have been some research, especially from the New Jersey policy perspective, that points to large deficits in the budget yet. I mean, education is the state's largest expenditure. It's a lot of money for schools, but also, what do schools need? The needs are high, like you just pointed out.

Tiffany Hansen: We are talking with Jessie Gomez, a reporter at Chalkbeat. Jessie, you've covered Newark a lot, and I want to pivot our conversation to that. Also want to remind listeners they can join the conversation now. If you live in Newark, are you a parent and a caregiver, a guardian in Newark with kids in the public school system? Are you a public school teacher in Newark? I know you're home today, so you can give us a call, 212-433-9692. You can call us and text us with your questions.

We're going to pivot to Newark here, but I want to remind our listeners that we're listening to WNYC FM HD and AM New York WNJT FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. This is New York and New Jersey Public Radio. We're live streaming at WNYC.org. Jessie, turning to Newark, you've been closely covering that. It is the state's largest school district.

It's a district that was under state control for a couple of decades because of long-standing academic operational issues. It regained local control a couple of years ago, test scores improving, but Newark still trails the statewide averages. Based on your reporting, what's happened since local control has returned, and why does the district still continue to lag behind?

Jessie Gomez: I mean, to put it all into perspective, too, I mean, like you said, Newark was taken over in 1995. It was almost 25 years of state control. At that level, though, state leaders were calling Newark public schools that they were at abysmal levels. I mean, we also saw some mismanagement of funding, which is really why there was this big need for the state to come in. Over the years, we have seen graduation rates rise. We've seen test scores rise. Attendance has gotten better. All the key metrics that determine if a school district is operating well are improving. State test scores, though, they're still lagging.

That's a trend that we are seeing just across the country from the pandemic. Even here in the state, we're seeing state test scores creep up to those pre-pandemic levels, which are all really good indicators of things that have been happening in schools. Like high impact tutoring, one-on-one sessions with students, intensive tutoring, high impact tutoring, all the things that have been placed on the ground to really help students refine those really key skills.

I think that's also what Newark public schools has endured. We have seen the district, even within the last five years post-pandemic, we've seen them implement new literacy plans, adopt new curriculums that follow the science of reading to really help students refine those key literacy skills. Which is again, what state and city leaders are saying requires drastic attention. Although key metrics are still not up to par, we are seeing that the district is rebuilding its schools, and they have this 10-year strategic plan to improve schools. But the big pending things, like school infrastructure, are things that only the state can take care of.

Tiffany Hansen: Has incoming Governor Sherrill said anything about addressing, specifically about addressing those literacy gaps? Again, Newark was part of her congressional district.

Jessie Gomez: Yes, definitely. We know, again, from the campaign trail, Mikie Sherrill has definitely supported refining students' skills specifically through funding high-impact tutoring. During her time in Congress, she was a big supporter of high-impact tutoring, which, for listeners, it's basically small group sessions, about half an hour, three times a week with the same tutor. The idea is that if you do this consistently for two to three times a week, that a student will have the more personalized learning experience to really refine those key skills that they're lacking.

It could be maybe a student isn't good in writing, or perhaps a student has trouble reading and sounding out words. Tutoring will help fix those kinks, per se. That's what research is telling us. Mikie Sherrill has said that she would want to implement high-impact tutoring across the state and that she would like to fund that. But again, that's money, and there's a lot of things on her plate. How she prioritizes funding for literacy and high-impact tutoring and refining students' skills is something that we're going to closely watch during her administration.

Tiffany Hansen: I'm sorry, do we know how effective that has been so far?

Jessie Gomez: Definitely, we've seen on the ground the reviews are that it is helping students. It's helping students inch up towards pre-pandemic levels. But more importantly, it's also a more personalized approach to instruction because teachers can only do so much when they're in a class of 25, 30 students. Every student might have a specific issue, a specific question that they need. We have seen state test scores improve through high-impact tutoring, and I think every school also offers their own story when it comes to high-impact tutoring, how it has improved or at least helped students move up a little bit in their skills.

Tiffany Hansen: Jessie here. Let's bring Judith into the conversation. Judith, down the shore here, welcome to the show.

Judith: Hi. Thank you.

Tiffany Hansen: You had a question.

Judith: A question and a concern. I am a long-time educator, especially with special education students in urban areas. My concern is with the federal dollars for nutrition being cut back, and mental health services being cut back, I think this puts an added burden on the educational systems within our urban areas. I'm hoping that somehow we can retrieve funding to do a wraparound service for our students that would include nutrition, mental health, physical health for the families in urban areas that are stressed because of these things. I'm just wondering if that particular need will be addressed.

Tiffany Hansen: Thank you, Judith. Jessie, talk about what we've heard from the incoming governor about dealing with federal funding issues.

Jessie Gomez: We've heard Sherrill be loud and clear on the campaign trail that she is focused on getting federal funding back from the Trump administration. That funding will touch on what our listeners said, nutrition, and classroom instruction, and things like that. We haven't obviously seen that come into play yet. Maybe it might be one of the first things she tackles. But again, she's been very clear that she wants to get federal funding back for education.

As the Trump administration looks to dismantle the Department of Education, as the Trump administration has rolled back on federal funding on education for many states. I don't foresee this being easy, but I do think it is something she haspromised. We'll also be closely watching that as well.

Tiffany Hansen: You reported on a Newark teacher who has been using AI tools in his classroom, says that he's been getting some really positive results from that. Talk a little bit here about AI use in Newark. Do we think we're going to see a broader push for that from the state to bring AI broadly to the schools across the state?

Jessie Gomez: We definitely know AI was definitely a Murphy administration priority, especially during the end of his term. His administration worked hard to, what they call, bring the AI boom to New Jersey. I mean, last year alone for schools, they launched a set of resources to help teachers understand AI, implement it, and manage it. At the state level, that was a really big priority for Murphy. I think it'll be really interesting to see how Sherrill tackles AI, but when we talk about schools locally, I mean, AI is already here.

In Newark public schools alone, we're seeing some students use a program called Khanmigo that allows students to interact with an AI chatbot and ask them questions in the same way they would be able to ask a teacher about a question. We also seeing that implemented AI in different ways, as well in the classroom to assist teachers in prepping lessons. Also, we've seen devices like Khanmigo being used for teachers during instructional hours to allow teachers to be in multiple places at once. If you only have 30 minutes with a student and Tommy has a question, but so does Miguel, you can't just split yourself in two. A lot of teachers are saying AI helps in that way. But of course, there's also concerns with privacy concerns. [crosstalk].

Tiffany Hansen: Yes, I was going to say we've had conversations on this very program about how kids interact with AI, particularly as it relates to outside of the classroom. But I can imagine all kinds of parents and caregivers going, "Hang on a minute. My kids talking to a chatbot when I try to get them to not talk to chatbots," like that. I can't imagine that that's going to not raise a few hackles among parents and caregivers. One of the other issues that I think the governor is going to have to deal with is absenteeism. Do we have any clues about how the governor is going to approach this? It's been an issue since the pandemic.

Jessie Gomez: Yes, it's definitely been an issue. I mean, keeping kids in school is not always easy. In Newark, again, we have seen those absenteeism levels decrease. The metrics are pointing towards the right direction, but the work still needs to happen to get kids into schools. There was a recent organization, the Newark Opportunity Youth Network in Newark, actually surveyed a ton of high school students ages 16 to 24 in the city, asking them about why they just disengaged from school. The factors range. It could be home life, it could be trauma, it could be violence.

It could be a myriad of issues that really impact every single student differently. Sherrill's administration has showed an interest in keeping students in schools. Now the bigger question is how do we tackle that at the local level while also allowing school districts to navigate this on their own?

Tiffany Hansen: Just kind of running through the laundry list of issues here that the incoming governor is going to have to deal with. Let's talk about mental health really quickly here. The New Jersey Youth Mental Health Strategic Plan was released by Governor Murphy. Maybe just quickly tell us what that outlines and what it includes, and whether you see incoming Governor Sherrill carrying it forward or not.

Jessie Gomez: Definitely. Again, just in the last couple of days, Murphy also released a strategic plan on mental health, The New Jersey Youth Mental Health Strategic Plan, exactly. It calls to just continue youth mental health support across the state, specifically funding resources in schools. At the core of it all is to just reduce the stigma that youth should not engage in mental health issues or talk about mental health. Sherrill, during the campaign trail, again, she's a big supporter of youth mental health,one of her more larger platforms. She's also said that, in a way, social media also impacts negatively mental health as well.

She's also been in support of this phone-free schools initiative, but she's also talked about addressing the use of social media in schools, addressing the social media and youth in general. I can foresee perhaps more investment for this area from the state, but we still haven't heard specific details yet.

Tiffany Hansen: Incoming governor is going to be sworn in tomorrow. As you head out the door here, Jessie, tell us what you think you're going to see here in this first year from the incoming governor.

Jessie Gomez: I mean, when it comes to education, I foresee a lot of investments into youth mental health. And a big emphasis on funding schools. Again, previous governors have really tried to tackle this issue of school funding and equity, and so we're really going to see that in the forefront here, I think, this year. Lastly, of course, is just diverse on the issue of equity and segregation. There is an ongoing school segregation case at the state level. It's been in the courts for years now. A lot of advocates on the ground are really hoping Sherrill will finalize this and do something about segregated schools, and perhaps bring in more equity into the classroom as well.

Tiffany Hansen: We've been talking with Jessie Gomez, Chalkbeat Newark reporter covering Newark public schools, talking about education and education policy specifically as it pertains to the incoming Sherrill administration. Jessie, thanks so much for your time and your insight. We certainly appreciate it.

Jessie Gomez: Thanks so much. Tiffany.

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