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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning and happy Tuesday, everyone. Many of you know that on Tuesdays, we do our Climate Story of the Week on this show. Often, that's later in the program and just one segment. Today, we lead with our Climate Story of the Week. We will take it in two parts with two guests.

First, New York City Deputy Mayor Maria Torres-Springer on yesterday's announcement of the city's brand-new offshore wind port at the South Brooklyn Marine Terminal, and then George Packer from The Atlantic with an epic new article. Have you seen any of this yet? You probably haven't had time to read the whole thing in the July/August issue of The Atlantic called The Most American City: Searching for the Nation's Future in Phoenix, Arizona.

That one is about climate in the land of increasingly common triple-digit temperatures, but also about the future of our culture and democracy in one of the ultimate 2024 swing states, so George Packer in about a half hour with that climate-linked, theory of everything article from The Atlantic. We start here in the city with the Brooklyn wind port and Maria Torres-Springer, deputy mayor for housing, economic development, and workforce.

We will also touch with her on some of the housing and economic development and workforce news, including City Council approving some of the City of Yes housing construction proposals, and also the congestion pricing postponement bombshell from Governor Hochul, and the implications for the city as the Adams administration sees it. Deputy Mayor, always good to have you on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Deputy Mayor Maria Torres-Springer: Thank you so much for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Tell us about this groundbreaking at the Brooklyn Marine Terminal yesterday. What did you and your colleagues do there?

Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer: Well, we were thrilled to be able to break ground on the nation's really largest offshore wind port at the South Brooklyn Marine Terminal. It's a 73-acre site. It'll be New York's first offshore wind port and, as I mentioned, the nation's largest. It will also be the first substation to really connect offshore wind energy into New York City's grid. It was a great day to be with partners, Brian, because it represents a major step forward, not just in terms of meeting of our clean energy goals, but in terms of job creation, economic development, given the more than 1,000 good-paying jobs that will be located on the site.

Brian Lehrer: What is the nation's largest offshore wind port mean? What will be there eventually and how long will that take to develop?

Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer: Sure. Well, this offshore wind port will deliver about 810 megawatts of renewable energy to New York. It will power essentially almost 500,000 homes and really will help to accelerate our clean energy transition. As many of your listeners might know, there's a state-wide goal of about 9,000 megawatts of clean energy by 2035. This is a significant down payment towards that goal.

On the site itself, the activities are going to range from staging to assembly, to repair, to maintenance of the wind turbines. Now, the wind farm will be located about 15 miles off of the south shore of Long Island, but this is a critical port to ensure that we can make the types of investments in offshore wind that have long been overdue. That construction will take a couple of years. It should be done by 2026. At that point, we'll be able to plug in this type of energy, clean energy, generated off the shores of New York into our electricity grid.

I think, Brian, what's really critical here is that if you think about the fact that 50% of the US population lives within 50 miles of a coastline, the ability to harness the power of offshore wind to generate the type of clean energy that's so critical to meet our climate goals is really a worthwhile endeavor and one that we were so excited to stand with our partners at Equinor, with the state, and so many others in finally delivering for New Yorkers.

Brian Lehrer: What will this look like or sound like for people in the area, Red Hook, Sunset Park, anywhere around there? You know that there's been backlash to wind farms, wind turbine installations, whatever we want to call them, in various places in our region and in the country based on a perception, accurate or not, of some kind of visual and audio blight.

Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer: Well, what's been really important to our process in designing and now implementing this plan for an offshore wind port in Sunset Park is we didn't do this in a vacuum. We convened a task force of local leaders to ensure that as we implemented this plan, we really had a front-of-mind community goals. For example, that's not just in the design of the actual facilities for the South Brooklyn Marine Terminal, but it's about the opportunity that the offshore wind port represents. In particular, for small businesses, for MWBEs, and in terms of job opportunities.

Our partners at Equinor, for example, they stood up a $5 million fund so that we could resource local groups, local institutions that would train New Yorkers for these jobs. There's also a project labor agreement here, Brian, for the more than 1,000 construction jobs. Local hires will be prioritized from Sunset Park, from NYCHA housing. These are all of the ways we want to make sure that we're not just addressing, what might be concerns on the ground, but we're really seizing the opportunity to uplift families and workers in the area because this $1 billion investment is being made in Sunset Park.

Brian Lehrer: What will people see if they stand on the Brooklyn waterfront?

Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer: Well, they will see parts of the wind turbines being assembled. There will be a substation. All of this is designed to make sure that local conflicts are minimized. What I think ultimately people will see, Brian, are two things. They will see that this is a hub for jobs and opportunity, that it's not the type of facility or project that is untethered from the needs and aspirations of local residents.

What they'll also see is that they have a local government and a state government that is leading the charge in ensuring that we make a just transition. As many know, the offshore wind industry has seen some turbulence, no pun intended, over the course of the last two years. The ability of the public and private sectors on this project to walk a straight line, to keep going, to break ground, and in two years have it complete, I think, is a testament to our ability to stay the course and to ensure that we are doing right by New Yorkers both on job and climate goals.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take some questions and comments for New York City Deputy Mayor for Housing, Economic Development, and Workforce Maria Torres-Springer on the new offshore wind port at the Brooklyn Marine Terminal and other housing and economic development topics, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, in part one of our Climate Story of the Week for Tuesday of this week, and George Packer, as I mentioned earlier with his epic article in The Atlantic that relates the climate crisis and the crisis of democracy in Phoenix, Arizona to the future of the whole nation.

A fascinating 25,000-word read. George Packer coming with that theory of everything second in a two-part Climate Story of the Week for this week with Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer right now, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. I'm curious if you can say what kind of energy the wind from this port will replace and more precisely for whom. You mentioned a stat that it would be enough energy into the grid in New York City for 500,000 homes, so they hear that number right. Is it possible to say for which homes? Does this mean less oil consumption, less coal in New York's power plants? Can you do any of that equation for us?

Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer: Well, sure. I think, Brian, in many ways, it's all of the above. Now, this is a new technology in the US, in New York State. It's more mature in other parts of the globe. I think as we develop the system here in New York, we will see more and more of that transition away from the types of sources of electricity that impact our climate goals and emit more greenhouse gases. There is the ability here as I mentioned because it will deliver 810 megawatts of renewable energy to power 500,000 homes.

We hope that increases as more wind farms are built across the region. A port like this is essential for developing that ecosystem. Hopefully, it will power more and bring more choices and more opportunities for consumers over time. It's the type of investment, early investment, significant investment that is necessary to really change that equation in terms of the ways we consume energy. I think we're seeing from New Yorkers more and more of a desire to have more choice, to have more opportunity to help accelerate this clean energy transition that we're all trying to make.

Brian Lehrer: Will this form of energy cost New Yorkers any more than what we're getting now? You probably saw the European Parliament election results over the weekend. I realize that's far from your portfolio as a deputy mayor of New York City, but that included a backlash against the Green parties over what a growing number of Europeans are apparently seeing as renewable energy mandates that, for now at least, push up the cost of energy for working families before the new technologies are price competitive with fossil fuels. Are there any cost implications for New Yorkers from this kind of conversion?

Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer: Well, as always, Brian, when there's a new technology, there will be change. It's possible that this might mean a slight increase in costs, a few more cents for consumers. The investment that we're trying to make here is a transition for the medium and the long term. If we don't make these investments, we're stuck. If we make the types of smart investments in clean energy, then the system eventually matures. It becomes much more price-competitive.

We're not trying to make a tradeoff between our affordability goals and our climate goals because for too long, I think, and in probably too many parts of the world, that is a choice that we are forcing families to make. Our bet here in New York is that with this investment and over time that we can address multiple goals at the same time. We think it's a smart investment and the market eventually will mature enough so that these concerns will be allayed.

Brian Lehrer: You mentioned seeing this wind port in Brooklyn as a job creator. I think Tina in Harlem has a question about that. Tina, you're on WNYC with Deputy Mayor Maria Torres-Springer. Hello.

Tina: Good morning, Ms. Deputy Mayor. Good morning, Brian. Thanks for taking my call. Young people who are interested in pursuing this kind of career, it sounds like good long-term, solid, maybe union work. I wonder what resources they have or do you know which ones where they can train up?

Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer: Absolutely. I'm so glad you asked this question because we don't want there to be a wrong front door for those who are interested in maritime jobs, in clean energy jobs. The first thing that I'll say is listeners, New Yorkers should look at our Workforce1 centers. You can call 311 or look up the website at nyc.gov for our small business services because that system will connect you to the range of opportunities, whether they are apprenticeships to current openings, whether it's this project or others in our green economy sector.

We're starting early for a number of schools. For example, the Harbor School. They are already very much a part of this initiative. We're working with CUNY from Kingsborough to LaGuardia to the College of Staten Island to make sure that there are entryways to these jobs. As you mentioned, because there is a project labor agreement, these are good-paying union jobs. The District Council of Carpenters, for instance, already recruiting apprentices for this project and for others.

Really, visit our Workforce1 center website to learn more about what these opportunities are regardless of age, regardless of tenure in the maritime industry. The last thing I'll say, it's part of this overall effort that the Adams administration is making in our green economy because we anticipate that by the year 2040, 400,000 jobs will be supported by this industry. We want to make sure we're well on our way to achieving that goal. First and foremost, it's connecting New Yorkers to all of those training and job opportunities.

Brian Lehrer: I want to read a few texts that have come in that are expressing concerns about a wind port in the neighborhood. One text says, "Please push Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer on your noise question. I live nearby and know the mental burden noise has on people." Another listener writes, "How will the wind farm affect sailboats? Will it absorb wind forces needed to drive sailboats?" Another one writes, "Please discuss why people don't like living near wind farms."

From USA Today, quoting this, "Hearing the constant noises of the nearby turbines chopping the wind and they feel the low-frequency vibrations infiltrating their homes and affecting their health." From another article, the same listener quotes, "Some opponents of wind energy have complained of a phenomenon known as 'shadow flicker' in which active turbine blades cast a moving shadow on nearby homes and yards." How would you address any of that in the case of South Brooklyn?

Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer: Yes, appreciate all of those questions. First, I want to clarify that the wind turbines are not going to be running or spinning at the South Brooklyn Marine Terminal. These will be offshore, 15 miles off of Jones Beach essentially. It's precisely why offshore wind is a huge opportunity and one that can minimize conflict. Because if you are several miles away from shore, then you are mitigating potential conflicts, either with noise or some of the others that you mentioned.

At the South Brooklyn Marine Terminal itself, the activities that will be there will be staging, repair, maintenance. With any facility that the city manages or supports, we want to make sure that our partners here are good neighbors. We'll be monitoring this very closely, taking the input from the community, continuing to work with the community-driven task force that was stood up in order to ensure that the implementation of this project cues to the goals that were laid out to us by the community who really wanted to make sure that we had a project here that accelerated, enabled a just transition.

Brian Lehrer: Here's another call of pushback. Eli or is it Eli in Brooklyn? You're on WNYC. Hello.

Eli: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. Hello, Deputy Mayor.

Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer: Hello.

Eli: Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, we got you.

Eli: Yes, sorry. Sorry. Speakerphone. Right, right, right. I'm very concerned about the cost-effectiveness of this, the cost of building these unrecyclable wind turbines, what needs to go into them to build them, and their end results, but more so, the maintenance needed for them, the lubrication in the waterways, the siting for it, all the dead whales, other marine mammals that have shown up from the sounding depths over the Jersey Shore, New York shore.

Brian Lehrer: I think the dead-whales claim turns out to be fake news based on the marine biologists' many institutions.

Eli: There were certainly so many more this past summer than there have been.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, I think the experts have been attributing it to other things. Eli, I appreciate it. That's a series or a collection in that phone call, Deputy Mayor, of concerns, including not just the whales but pollution from the upkeep products that need to be used on wind turbines. Address any of that.

Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer: Sure. Well, we have to make sure, of course, that our partners here, and in this case, it's Equinor, abides by all of the rules to ensure safety and that we are hewing to the highest environmental standards. We are going to hold them to that. In terms of the cost though, it's important to remember that this is $1 billion of private investment that is going to be made by this company.

It's the type of investment that allows all of us to take this great leap forward in terms of clean energy while creating more than a thousand jobs for New Yorkers. It is, in our mind, a good investment. For sure, as we implement it, we'll make sure that our partners here abide by all relevant rules and environmental standards while creating the type of opportunity on the ground that is so critical.

I'll just remind folks that while we have regained the one million jobs that we lost during the pandemic and we are at an all-time private sector job high, we cannot sit on our hands and hope that that just continues. We have to make sure that we're making investments in different sectors of our economy to propel a recovery across different communities and for New Yorkers of different backgrounds. This project is in line with that goal. We're really excited to make sure that the implementation of it meets all of our aspirations for the project.

Brian Lehrer: Since you mentioned cost again, you said earlier that this is a more significant investment in the beginning. Can you put some dollars and cents on that in terms of what this will cost the taxpayer if anything or if your private sector partners footing all the investment costs and what a typical New Yorker might expect temporarily in their energy bills of any sort?

Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer: Well, the South Brooklyn Marine Terminal is a city-owned site. As I mentioned, $1 billion in private investment is going to be deployed on the site for the new offshore wind port. The city itself is making about $100 million in capital investments on the site for infrastructure to enable this project to happen. If you look at the overall returns here, we expect that there will be a $13 billion economic impact to the region.

It's exactly the type of project, Brian, that we like because it is an investment of city resources, but it leverages so many more private dollars and, in this case, meets multiple goals. I think as more and more of the wind farms come online and more get plugged into our electrical grid, we'll have a better sense as to what this might mean for consumers, both in the short and the medium term.

I think it's important that we look at this both as a matter of dollars and cents in terms of the consumers, but really as a matter of the hard and important things that we need to do if we are to confront our climate crisis. There are no easy solutions. There are no overnight solutions, but we have to make the types of investments like in offshore wind if we're to be as resilient as we need to be for generations to come.

Brian Lehrer: I want to acknowledge that a number of listeners are calling and writing in on some of the pushback that some of the callers and texters have been giving you, saying things like, "These anti-wind memes are pumped out by the fossil fuel interests." Another one that says-- Let's see. Where did this go?

Oh yes, "How many fish die from the poisoning of the ocean due to mercury emissions from coal plants," as well as another one saying what I said that the "dead whales from wind farms" meme has been debunked by the experts. Just acknowledging that the first calls and texts that we got were various ones of pushback. Now, we're getting other ones that support what you were saying about some of these things being disinformation purposely put out by the fossil fuel industry and then spreading concern among the general public.

Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer: It's interesting, Brian. I think it's important to distinguish between legitimate questions and concerns that we all have to grapple with and answer honestly and the type of misinformation and fear-mongering that happens when there is a paradigm shift. We're used to that in New York as we try to tackle hard issues. Our work in government is to ensure that we make the right types of policy decisions and the right types of investments that allow us to move forward as a city.

We need to keep walking a straight line here. I think New Yorkers will see, both in the activity at South Brooklyn Marine Terminal, the jobs that are created and, ultimately, the difference that it makes by delivering more than 800 megawatts of renewable energy. They will see that these are just the types of decisions that are critical for our future.

Brian Lehrer: Another one just to pile on a little bit. This is a text. "These callers and texters are nimbiers at their finest. 15 miles offshore people. Come on now. If we can do it in Appalachia on our mountains, you can do it." Somebody writes that, but we're also getting another text, "Still not satisfied with your answer on how much this is going to cost consumers." Quoting your last answer on that as saying, "It might possibly cost New Yorkers a few cents more." This listener says, "That's suspiciously vague. Can you quantify any more specifically?"

Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer: Well, not at this moment, Brian. That's only because I think we have to wait and see how it actually comes online and its impact on the grid. We really do believe that it's the type of investment that, over time, will be price competitive for New Yorkers. I will leave it at that because I want to make sure that we're being honest and providing the most real-time information that we have.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take another call then from Eddie on or in, depending on how you like to say it, Coney Island. You're on WNYC. Hi, Eddie.

Eddie: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. Look, this is fascinating. How does somebody like me apply for a job in the actual industry? I'd like to have a job that makes a difference in the world. This seems perfect. I might have some of the skills, but is it a city? Is it a state? Where specifically does one go? Do you know? Can you inform us?

Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer: Yes, absolutely. A good website for all of your listeners to know is jobs.nyc.gov. There, you will have access to all of the jobs and training opportunities that are available and supported by the city of New York. For this particular project, our Workforce1 system is really the nexus for connecting New Yorkers to those jobs. As I mentioned earlier, depending on your training or your background, we'll make sure that you're plugged in in the right way, whether you are a young person looking to get into the maritime green economy industry in general or you have significant experience and you're looking to upscale or you're trying to gain entry through an apprenticeship into union jobs.

That is available to you if you work with our Workforce1 center. They'll make sure to make that connection for you. Really, fundamentally, your question is why we are doing this because we know that there are many New Yorkers who are looking for more opportunity and more mobility. We want to do that for our students and for older New Yorkers because everyone has a role to play in supporting our green economy.

Brian Lehrer: Eddie, thank you for your call. Good luck applying for work there. I hope you get a job. Few more minutes with New York City Deputy Mayor for Housing, Economic Development, and Workforce Maria Torres-Springer. We've been talking about the news of the groundbreaking yesterday at the Brooklyn Marine Terminal of what will be, they say, the nation's largest offshore wind port.

Let me touch another couple of things that would come into your jurisdiction as deputy mayor of housing, economic development, and workforce. I see City Council has passed part of Mayor Adams' City of Yes housing proposal for more housing construction in various neighborhoods in the city and the rezoning to enable that. I've said on the show many times. People say two things about affordable housing in New York City and the region. "We desperately need more of it," is number one and, "Just don't build any near me," is number two. What did City Council just approve that you would like to tout?

Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer: Well, first, I'll say, Brian, that is the heartbreaking irony of what we are hearing. It's inconsistent if we want to be the type of city where tens of thousands of New Yorkers don't sleep in shelters, where we don't have a 1.4% vacancy rate, where more than 50% of our renters aren't rent burden. We can't allow for that to continue to be the case that we want more housing. We just don't want it in our backyards.

At the start of this administration, there are actually three citywide tax amendments that we advanced. One focused on carbon neutrality. That passed the City Council last year. The second focused on economic opportunity, really a set of initiatives to make it easier for businesses to find space and to grow, to boost new industries, to enable more business family streetscape. That citywide tax amendments passed the City Council last week.

We are so happy for their support because this will mean a lot for our small businesses across the five boroughs. We have a 1961 zoning code that frankly just made it too hard for businesses to start and to operate and to grow the types of industries that are critical for our economy. The third City of Yes citywide tax amendment focused on housing is right now making its way through the public approval process. Community boards are weighing in on the set of proposals. It should come to the City Council by the end of this year.

That last one, Brian, is incredibly important for our mission to really confront and finally address our housing crisis. We hope that New Yorkers will join us in ensuring that by building a little bit of housing in every neighborhood, we are going to make a big impact on the housing crisis without spurring the type of dramatic change in any particular place that I know many New Yorkers do have questions about.

Brian Lehrer: Let me also ask you about Section 8 housing. The voucher lottery opened for the first time in 15 years. The deadline to apply was Sunday. As you know, I think the number is 600,000-plus people applied for a limited--

Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer: 633,000, in fact, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. With, what, about a third that number available? What's the actual number of available vouchers? If people qualify based on their income, why aren't Section 8 vouchers available in an unlimited way?

Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer: The availability of Section 8 vouchers is established by the federal government. We would love more of these types of vouchers because the numbers that you mentioned, 633,000 applicants over the course of the six-day window where NYCHA opened for the first time in 15 years, the waitlist is a real testament to the need that we have in this city for more housing and more affordable housing.

633,000, fine. That's the size of Boston, right? It's the size of Detroit. We welcome more. In the meantime, we're very happy that we were able to reopen it. What happens next is that by August 1st, a 200,000 waitlist will be established. Then after that, households will be called off of that waitlist to access vouchers, likely at a clip, about a thousand a month. This is a real lifeline for New Yorkers. Brian, I grew up on Section 8 housing. I know firsthand what a difference it makes for a family to be able to rely on this support.

Our job is to make sure that we're doing everything that we cannot just do Section 8 vouchers, but in the building of more housing through the City of Yes for housing opportunity in the financing of more affordable housing through our government programs, in using the new tools that we just got from Albany. It has to be an all-of-the-above approach if we're to make a meaningful dent in this crushing housing crisis that this city and state and region and nation frankly has seen for way too long.

Brian Lehrer: We're just about out of time, but let me circle back to wind for just a second. For one thing, here's another text that says, "As a local surfer, I frequently get added to local anti-wind Facebook groups by conservative surfers I know. These groups are filled with MAGA supporters' misinformation, big oil propaganda, and constant lies connecting each local whale death on Long Island to wind farms. The rhetoric spread in these echo chambers is actually anti-environment. Nothing is based in reality or any scientific evidence." I thought that one was interesting to throw in since it came from a local surfer who's in those Facebook groups.

That ties to the even bigger question that we'll close with, which is that most of the news on wind energy recently has been discouraging, meaning projects along Long Island and the Jersey Shore get announced with big fanfare like you've come with but then canceled after either fierce opposition from political forces like that or cost challenges. The Times just had a story this weekend about how solar energy is flourishing, but wind energy is floundering nationally. I'm just curious. One listener asks it explicitly in a text, "How will you avoid the cancelation of the projects that we've seen in New Jersey recently?"

Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer: I think that's because of these challenges that you mentioned, Brian, over the course of the last couple of years and some turbulence in terms of the contract, in terms of how the economics are structured. That's precisely why we are so proud that we broke ground. This isn't an announcement of a plan or a vision. These are shovels in the ground, building the port. The wind farm development is going to advance in a very quick fashion. That's why we have confidence. It wasn't just the city. The state was there. Private partners were there. Local elected officials were there and, most importantly, local leaders, community residents and leaders who've been with us from the beginning.

While nothing is a guarantee, especially a project of this complexity, a project that is really at the leading edge of this type of work, we truly believe that we have the key ingredients to ensure that it advances as quickly as possible, that it will be complete by 2026. It will be a model not just for the state but for the country. We can show together that we can do hard things because that is what this work is about and what we're committed to in this administration and what this project represents. We're just going to keep going, Brian, because that's what New Yorkers deserve.

Brian Lehrer: We could keep going if we had more time because there are so many things to talk about with you always as deputy mayor for housing, economic development, and workforce. I don't know when you sleep with that big a portfolio, but we always appreciate when you come on, Deputy Mayor Maria Torres-Springer. Thank you very much.

Deputy Mayor Torres-Springer: Thank you so much, Brian.

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