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Governor Hochul: After careful consideration, I have come to the difficult decision that implementing the planned congestion pricing system risks too many unintended consequences for New Yorkers at this time. For that reason, I have directed the MTA to indefinitely pause the program.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, as you have no doubt heard by now, that was Governor Hochul's surprise announcement yesterday. Congestion pricing was all set to go into effect for Manhattan below 60th Street on June 30th, and the E-ZPass readers are installed, but she cited unintended consequences as her reason.

What does this mean for the intended consequences of congestion pricing, badly needed money for next-generation transit improvements, plus, less time waiting and traffic for those who do need to drive, and the cleaner air and less climate pollution that comes from fewer cars?

Plus, what other surprises might there be in store on this maybe final day of the legislative session in Albany for the year? And, oh, by the way, wasn't that Kathy Hochul there with President Biden when he announced his border crackdown this week? Could her actions on those two very different issues, congestion pricing, and the asylum seekers, have a common political goal? Let's ask WNYC and Gothamist Albany reporter, Jon Campbell, and transportation reporter Stephen Nessen. Hello again, Jon and Stephen.

Jon Campbell: Hello.

Stephen Nessen: Hi, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Where do we start? Maybe, Stephen, with you on how far along we were to getting congestion pricing going.

Stephen Nessen: I mean, Brian, let me just tell you, we were so far along that on Wednesday morning, the MTA had planned to host these webinars where they were going to explain to the public how the charging's going to work, where the tolling zone is. They had this week-long program of online webinars, Q&As ready to go. As you said, the cameras were installed. That said, as we've reported, as you and I have spoken about before, there were still two lawsuits that are waiting for a judge's ruling. Those could have paused the program as well. The MTA wasn't waiting for a judge. They were banking on the fact that the research, the planning for this was so rock solid. You know it's been underway for over four years now, the planning for this. They were pretty confident that this was-- everything was ready to go, flip the switch on June 30th, start charging drivers.

Brian Lehrer: This may not come as a surprise to you, Stephen, as much passion as you see in your reporting every day about mass transit and congestion pricing in particular, all our lines are full for this segment without me even giving out the phone number. When they were just full with people who wanted to talk about NATO and D-Day two minutes ago, and as soon as those callers hung up, because that segment was over, poof, all our lines lit up with people wanting to say something on one side or another about congestion pricing. Does that surprise you?

Stephen Nessen: No. Not at all. I mean, this was slated to be one of the biggest changes to New York City streets, I think, almost ever. In the US, it's the first congestion pricing program, but changing the way people use New York City streets, reducing traffic by as much as 15% would've been a huge change to the way we even see the city experience the city, and the money that was going to come to the MTA for subway improvements, which millions and millions of New Yorkers rely on every day. This was going to be a politically defining moment, I think, for Governor Hochul if it had gone through.

Brian Lehrer: Now, I will say another thing about the callers, except for one, people are calling in who are happy about this decision to delay congestion pricing. We know from your reporting as well as other ways that there are a lot of people who are unhappy about it. I don't know what a poll would say, but it's always an indication of where the passion is.

Stephen, when people call in to a talk show like this without specifically being asked, we're looking for this kind of caller, or that kind of caller, if people just call, you know where the passion is. It seems like the passion was on the side of those who wanted to delay it.

Stephen Nessen: It's true. The polling does indicate that it is less favorable than favorable, but with the caveat that like even in Stockholm, they did a poll before and it was wildly unpopular, more than half the voters didn't support it. Once it went into effect for six months and the public saw the change to city streets, it completely flipped, and more than half the people supported it, and that city has continued it ever since.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, for those of you who don't have our number on your speed dial, and you can still use it to text a message, even though for the moment, our lines are full, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. To our very patient Albany reporter, Jon Campbell, as we got through that first little stretch of conversation with Stephen Nessen, Jon, what did the governor say were her reasons?

Jon Campbell: Well, the governor said her reasons were purely economic, that it's an expensive toll, and it's coming at a bad time. The city is still recovering from the pandemic, and office vacancy rates are high, inflation is high, and for that reason, this is a bad time to implement a new toll that could hit working-class New Yorkers.

Now, anybody I talked to at the state capitol yesterday, pretty much-- I mean, it was almost unanimous agreement that this was mostly a political decision, that congestion pricing is very unpopular in New York City's suburbs where there are a good chunk of people that drive into Manhattan in that congestion tolling zone.

There are tough congressional races on Long Island, in the Hudson Valley, and that this is an opportunity for the governor to take back congestion pricing and perhaps, take a political headache off the table for Democratic candidates in those tight races that really could determine which party controls Congress very similar to the way they did two years ago.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Before we take some of our callers, the clip we played at the top of the governor is from a prerecorded statement, which I think is all she's put out so far. Right?

Jon Campbell: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: There wasn't an opportunity to ask any follow-up questions but--

Jon Campbell: Yes, and today, the governor doesn't have any public events on her schedule at all. The press has not had a chance to ask a single question of the governor about this very dramatic about-face and--

Brian Lehrer: For the people who are primarily concerned about the actual reason, for the biggest reason, I know I listed several in the intro and certainly climate is one, but arguably, the biggest reason is that this was going to fund next-generation improvements to the transit system. She says she intends to replace the money for that somehow. The big question is from where? A business tax was floated or taking it from the so-called Rainy-Day Fund, but I'm not sure by who or how real that is. What do we know?

Jon Campbell: Yes. That's what we're trying to track down today. So I've, I've done some reporting on what lawmakers have discussed. I mean, this is the last week of the legislative session. Today is supposed to be the last day, but it's looking like it'll extend into Friday at least. They're scrambling right now trying to figure out how to plug this gap that was created by the governor pulling the plug on congestion pricing. I mean, congestion pricing tolls were set to raise an estimated billion dollars annually for the MTA that we're going to use that to get $15 billion worth of bonds to fund all sorts of transit improvements.

Right now, what seems to be on the table, based on my discussions with people in the Senate, people in the Assembly, is perhaps an increase in what's called the payroll mobility tax, which is a tax in the MTA region on employers, and it helps fund the MTA. Now, it would only-- this tax increase that seems to be floated by the governor would only apply to New York City businesses, but already you're seeing-- the Senate was very cool to that off the bat, the Assembly is kind of mixed on it, the Senate Democrats are supposed to talk about it again this morning, but if they can't come to an agreement before the end of the session here, I mean, the governor might not have any other choice than to dip into the state's reserves, which she's taking great pride in building up to bridge the gap into next year's budget, and then, maybe it becomes an issue for next year's budget.

Brian Lehrer: So, it would be to tax, if she were to go through with this business payroll tax increase, it would only be to tax businesses in New York City to improve mass transit in order to hold harmless those in the suburbs, in those swing congressional districts she's trying to appeal to?

Jon Campbell: Yes. If you remember back in 2009, 2010, back when the MTA was facing another fiscal crisis, they did, that's when they created this payroll mobility tax. It was used as a weapon in political races against democratic candidates, particularly in the state Senate. They had a very tenuous hold on the majority back then. They lost their majority in 2010 and a huge reason was because of suburban backlash to that payroll mobility tax.

Now that said, last year, they did increase that same payroll tax. They only targeted it to New York City businesses to carve out those suburbs and it was also on mid to higher earning New York City businesses. It's been floated something similar, but there's-- a lot of people in the Senate that still have scars from that 2010 election that are not super willing to do this.

Brian Lehrer: We are New York and New Jersey Public Radio, conversation relevant to both sides of the Hudson. Obviously, the delay indefinitely for the moment by Governor Kathy Hochul of the congestion pricing plan that was supposed to take effect on June 30th for driving into Manhattan below 60th street. Let's take a call from the Jersey side from somebody who I think is happy about this. Lynn(ph) in Clifton, you're on WNYC with our transportation reporter Stephen Nessen, and our Albany correspondent, Jon Campbell. Hi, Lynn.

Lynn: Hi. I'm not happy about it. People keep saying how it works in London and Paris, but the thing is when you're coming into London, you're not coming from another state. When you're coming into Paris, you're not coming in from another state. The fact that this is going to hurt people in New Jersey and Connecticut and not benefit because the money's going to the MTA. That's my first argument against it and I was very happy to hear Governor Hochul putting a stop on it.

Brian Lehrer: Lynn, thank you very much. Let's go on next to Lawrence(ph) in Bayside, Queens. While that's-- well, actually, Bayside is in one of those swing districts that, of course, George Santos won as a Republican in the last election cycle. Tom Suozzi, the Democrat, won the special election to replace Santos when he had to leave Congress, but that's a swing district, even though it's in the city. Hi, Lawrence. You're on WNYC.

Lawrence: Hi, Brian. It is very unpopular in Bayside because we don't actually have an effective mass transit to the city. The bus system here is a joke. We don't have a subway, thanks to Robert Moses. You could achieve all of the altruistic aims of congestion pricing if New York City were to restrict commercial traffic during rush hour. If you banned commercial traffic from moving in New York City between 7:00 and 9:00 and 5:00 and 7:00, you would get air pollution reductions and congestion reductions without a regressive tax against working-class people.

I think congestion pricing will return after the election, but it might come back with a $6 or $5 charge more similar to the regular tolls, but a $15 charge just to go into New York, and supposedly the break that poor people will get after you make 10 trips to the city in a month and spend $150 will give you a half-price toll. It's just incredibly regressive.

You have people who are carpooling. You have-- I know a couple of candy stripers who go in with a nurse in a Corolla to drive into Sloan Kettering. They can't go to work on the mass transit system, but if you've got to-- you could try and have this more progressive by only taxing cars that have one occupant in them or restrict vehicles to a maximum weight of 4,000 pounds or some other progressive way of trying to reduce traffic in Manhattan, but if you didn't have all the tractor trailers and vans and trucks blocking the streets during rush hour, then those new electric bikes that we're talking about would have a much better chance of actually delivering things in New York and cleaning up the transit that happens on the streets, which is now down to around five miles an hour, I believe.

Brian Lehrer: Lawrence, thank you very much. Calling from Bayside, my hometown. Hi, Mom. Hi, Dad. They're so loyal. They listen almost every day. Jon, they both floated alternative scenarios. Are there alternative scenarios other than the one we talked about a possible payroll tax on businesses in the city?

Jon Campbell: Well, I mean, I'm sure there are people who have alternate scenarios, but in terms of something that could get approved in the next two days or that's pretty unlikely. That said, it's been decades in the works, this congestion pricing program.

Mayor John Lindsay was the first person to bring it up decades ago. Mike Bloomberg had made a big push for it in 2007, so this was-- I mean, it's just really tough to overstate how much work went into getting the MTA New York City, New York State to this point.

That's why in terms of what is being discussed in Albany right now, it's almost entirely financial because they have this billion-dollar hole in the MTAs capital plan budget that they need to fill in some form or fashion and that is really what this short-term crisis is about.

Brian Lehrer: I said [crosstalk]--

Jon Campbell: Can I just-

Brian Lehrer: Yes, Stephen. Go ahead.

Stephen Nessen: -sorry, just jump in there. Just to respond to some of the caller suggestions. They're all great suggestions, but the congestion pricing law that was passed in Albany in 2019, it was written into the law that they need to earn $1 billion a year. That number wasn't just pulled out of a hat. That was the number that the legislature decided or agreed upon because that's how much they would use to generate bonds worth $15 billion for all those repairs that we were talking about, but that's written into the law, so that's how they settled on the $15-a-day charge.

Brian Lehrer: Wait a minute, Stephen. There's an assumption here that people may be casually making that the governor has the authority to do this with the snap of her fingers. Obviously, she just did it, but if this is a law that was passed by the legislature and signed by, I guess, the previous governor five years ago, and it's the law, how can she just snap her fingers and say, "No"?

Stephen Nessen: Well, that is the million-dollar question right now that Albany legal analysts are puzzling over, I would believe, but from some of the reporting I've done at this point, there is some talk, some concern that the MTA Board will actually have to come back at the end of June, that's their next meeting, and vote to not implement congestion pricing. There's some [chuckles] contentiousness about whether they would do that, but let's remember that going back to the Cuomo era when we all learned that the governor very much is in control of the MTA and calls the shots.

Brian Lehrer: I said before that our lines instantly lit up with-- all 10 lines instantly lit up and that 9 of the 10 were people calling who were happy about this decision. We've taken a few of those. Here's the one who's not, Sacha(ph), on the Upper West Side. You're on WNYC. Hi, Sacha. Thank you for calling today.

Sacha: Thank you for covering this. I just want to say that as a long-time accessible transit advocate, I'm a wheelchair user and activist, this is just crushing. It's not only the harm on accessibility, but to New York's-- but also, as a New York resident, parent, and human being, and it just shows a complete lack of vision and commitment to the future of this city.

It's the very premise that it's bad for business is just transparently wrong and false that anyone who visited London, for instance, can easily see what a less congested city can be and how good it is that it's safer for pedestrians, it's cleaner for everyone, it's more navigable for public transit and emergency services. That is huge benefits to have for visitors, families, and people who live and work in the metro area, i.e. commuters.

As the previous caller said, the idea that there might be better ways to implement this, I'm sure that's possible, but this is the one, as one of your guests was saying, that there's 99% of the way there. We've done a huge amount of work to make it happen, and any future one would have problems, too. So-

Brian Lehrer: Sacha, I think your--

Sacha: -I think this last-minute turnabout is just transactional play for rural voters and it does generational harm.

Brian Lehrer: Or suburban voters at least, but, Sacha, could you talk as a wheelchair user and a disability community advocate, what you think the practical implications are for people who use wheelchairs or other people with disabilities? Why is this of such concern to you and that community?

Sacha: Two years ago, after it was fought for a long time by whoever was in the governor's chair, first Cuomo, and then Hochul, we finally got a settlement from MTA, that wasn't money, but just a schedule to make stations more accessible, which was huge. She took credit for that. That's just fine. We're not trying to get credit, but being able to take the subway if-- that's how people get around New York, and that's a civil right of access. Something like this, it's not just less money in the subway, but it's less people taking the subway. It's less recognition for mass transit or something that everybody needs and can use.

Until we can take the subway like everyone else, until those elevators get built and they're more reliable, it's not going to work for people like me in wheelchairs, but also the strollers, also the luggage, also the deliveries, all these things that everyone needs and make New York City, New York State, and the metro area more sustainable.

Brian Lehrer: Sacha, thank you for calling in and chiming in. I really appreciate it. By the way, Stephen, you mentioned the MTA board has to now vote to reverse its congestion pricing order with the June 30th start date having been on the calendar. Listener writes, "Can the guests speak to the MTA board's fiduciary duty to raise this money? Why would they bow to Hochul?" Do you know the answer to that-

Stephen Nessen: Exactly.

Brian Lehrer: -or is there a possibility that the MTA board will not bow to Hochul and then we'll have the governor saying delay. We'll have the MTA board, which also has authority saying, "No. This is in the law and we have to raise the billion dollars. That's in the law. So, no, we're not reversing it." Who wins?

Stephen Nessen: It's a tough question and I think they're still puzzling over it, but I don't think the MTA Board can approve projects that it doesn't have money for. I think that would be part of the issue. To the last caller, Sacha, I have it in front of me now, there are something like I believe 17 stations that would've become wheelchair-accessible if they had the money, if the MTA had the money from congestion pricing. Those are concrete stations that were planned to get elevators, that if there's not that money, that it could be on the cutting block if the MTA doesn't find that money somewhere else.

Brian Lehrer: As we start to run out of time. Jon, I mentioned in the intro that this is one of two things that the governor did this week, pretty high-profile things that seem intended to help Democrats win or keep control of suburban swing districts in Congress this year. Of course, we know how crucial these New York swing districts are to control of Congress overall because the difference is just a few seats and there was all this turnover toward the Republicans in 2022.

This is crucial to control of the next Congress, not just to what happens in Manhattan below 60th street or in the immediate New York area greater New York, but, Jon, the other thing was she appeared with President Biden at his announcement this week that he's going to crack down on the border more than he has before, which, of course, is drawing a lot of pushback from progressives on that issue. Can you talk about Governor Hochul's presence there, and do we simply say, "Well, that's because the suburbs are really concerned about the migration more than the city is as well," or what happened there? Why was she there?

Jon Campbell: Well, the governor was one of-- it looked like a couple dozen officials that stood literally next to Biden, physically next to Biden while he announced this unilateral action to make it so that the Federal Government can more rapidly turn away asylum seekers when their crossings hit a certain level. She was there. She has been a very loyal Joe Biden surrogate, and within an hour or two after his announcement, she was out there on the White House lawn on MSNBC with Katy Tur, praising President Biden's announcement and immediately ripping Republicans for tanking that what was looking to be a bipartisan border deal a few months ago.

Yes. She takes her role as a Biden surrogate seriously. She takes her role as the head of the de facto head of the New York State Democratic Party very seriously, and that was another example of it, but it does tie into what we saw yesterday. She is not shy to look at issues through a political lens, and this is just two examples of that.

Brian Lehrer: I should say I'm sure that I know that a lot of people in New York City have strong feelings about the number of asylum seekers coming in a short period of time, strong feelings on either side of the issue. I guess the difference is that the congressional seats within New York City are not really at risk for the most part as a result of that, even probably Suozzi in that swing district in Eastern Queens and into Nassau. That's still kind of aiming at the suburbs even though the suburbs don't have many of the migrants. Right?

Jon Campbell: Yes. Absolutely. I mean, they're still-- the migrant issue is one that that riles up people all over the states, whether they have a lot of migrants or not, quite frankly. It is a big issue in those suburban campaigns. I'm talking about the Mike Lawler, Mondaire Jones race in the Hudson Valley. I'm talking about the three Republican-held seats on Long Island. It is-- Yes. That is something that can be largely focused on those swing districts that, again, could literally determine the balance of Congress.

Brian Lehrer: Jon Campbell covers Albany for WNYC and Gothamist Stephen Nessen covers transportation for us. Thank you, both, very much.

Jon Campbell: Thank you.

Stephen Nessen: Thank you, Jon. Thank you.

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