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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now let's turn the page from national politics and take a walk down the New York City streets, which are set to undergo a big change in the coming weeks. If you recall, during the early days of the pandemic, the city took steps to save its restaurant industry by opening up outdoor dining to all restaurants.

With very few exceptions and very few restrictions in an effort to provide cooped-up New Yorkers places to safely eat. Restauranteurs erupted elaborate street dining setups, many of which still line on curbs today. The days of outdoor dining in New York City, as we know it, are numbered.

Despite the new layer of vibrancy, these street dining setups have added to our avenues. Disgruntled neighbors have long fought for their removal, and soon enough, those critics will have their wishes largely granted.

As of August 3rd, which is less than two weeks away, it's next Saturday, the city's Dining Out NYC program will begin that process of regulating many of these shed-like dining establishments that we've come to know over the last four years. Changes are coming to the sidewalk dining setups as well, not just the ones that actually go into the road.

Joining me now to talk about the changes coming to outdoor dining in New York City, how restaurants are preparing for the Dining Out NYC program to come into effect, the new one, and the setups you might want to check out before they're torn down is Ryan Kailath, WNYC, and Gothamist's Arts and Culture Reporter. Ryan, hi.

Ryan Kailath: Hey, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Let's start off by just painting the scene for those who don't get out much or aren't in the city or aren't in the habit of outdoor dining. Can you describe what these outdoor dining sheds look like at this moment and how they're situated on our streets?

Ryan Kailath: Yes. The sheds, what we all call sheds and the city calls roadway setups, those are the ones that sit in the road in what was previously maybe parking or something else. People are mad about the parking part.

Those look kind of like whatever the restaurant wants them to look like. There's all kinds of crazy designs out there. There's ones made out of tree branches. There's your classic corrugated tin, there's wood, there's all sorts of setups.

The new rules are not going to affect just those ones that sit out in the street, the sheds. Like you said, a second kind is the sidewalk, tables, and chairs on the sidewalk. That's going to change, be regulated in a new way. There's a third kind, least affected, the open streets.

That's where different blocks temporarily shut down for several hours for street life to take place. Restaurants are allowed to put tables and chairs out in those open streets. Those are the three kinds, and they're all going to change in slightly different ways.

Brian Lehrer: Give me an example with respect to the open streets. A lot of people live near enough to one of these. There's one near me that's on a little restaurant row part of Dikeman Street where cars can no longer go. As I walk by there frequently, it looks like it's been a success for the restaurants because I see people there. Are those things going to be reopened to traffic?

Ryan Kailath: No. The open streets are the least affected by these new changes coming in August 3rd. Open streets are basically a partnership between the city and the businesses on that block who say, "Hey, we'll take the burden and a little cost of dragging the barriers out every day and dragging them back and replacing them when some ornery driver moves them to scoot by."

As long as the neighborhood can afford it and has the energy, those should stay up. Now, a lot of people have been running out of time and energy. That's a separate conversation.

Brian Lehrer: In your latest piece for Gothamist, you list a few gorgeous-looking setups that have seemingly added to the look and the culture of the city, but will be subject to removal per the Dining Out NYC program when it kicks in on August 3rd. You want to give an example of one of those or two?

Ryan Kailath: Yes. Removal or just changes. One, this was a great restaurant in Bed Stuy called Mama Fox. The owner is Sam DeStefano. She's been running restaurants in the New York area for I think almost 30 years at this point.

She just crunched the numbers, and it seems like figured out that this and other challenges for the restaurant industry aren't going to work. She just actually announced on Instagram yesterday that the restaurant will be closing on August 3rd on the day these new rules take effect. She didn't say exactly that the dining rules were the single reason, but the timing is certainly specific.

Brian Lehrer: How much are these changes being driven by the fact that people in the buildings above these restaurants are being plagued by late-night noise by outdoor diners that they wouldn't have heard in the indoor space and by rats?

Ryan Kailath: This is a conversation that the whole city has been having for a couple of years. I'm almost dreading, or at least anxious to hear what the callers have to say about this. The sheds are divisive. People call them rat hotels. People have derisively called them homeless shelters, say they're unsafe, say they're an eyesore, but there's equal opportunity hatred for the sidewalk dining as well.

I see a lot of complaints that, "Oh, they're cluttering up the sidewalk." People say, "I just want to walk down the sidewalk, I don't want to walk through a restaurant while I'm doing it." I'm sure open streets have their detractors among the car-friendly among us as well.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, you heard the invitation to you by Ryan Kailath, our Arts and Culture Reporter at WNYC on what's going to happen to the outdoor dining as of August 3rd be it right now for WNYC and Gothamist. Call us up 212-433-WNYC.

First of all, restaurant owners, have you applied to have legal outdoor dining at your New York City eatery under the new rules 212-433-WNYC? How's that going? If so, if you currently have an outdoor dining structure and you haven't applied, because that's part of the story too, apparently, not as many as one might have expected are applying to continue at all.

What stopped you from signing up or trying to? 212-433-WNYC. Any restuarantuer listening who's actually taking down your shed by next Saturday, August 3rd, or maybe gamble that the city won't notice and won't dole out punishments right away.

Those of you who aren't restaurant owners, who are maybe building residents, who've objected to this, are you getting what you wanted? Are you ambivalent? Call us up. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Ryan, what's the story with restaurants applying and not applying?

Ryan Kailath: It's a pretty onerous process. I think the fees start to add up. Let's see, it's $1,050 for just the application itself. I think it's a $2,500 security deposit that you need to put down just in case the city needs to do something, or you disappear overnight and they've got to take down your shred for you.

Then the DOT told me, they estimate the cost of the new setups, which have various rules and regulations. I think the rule book for the design is something like 70 pages or something. Don't quote me on that. The city said these will cost five figures. We're getting around 15K in costs already.

Then on top of that, restaurants have to take them down every December, store them over the winter, sometimes these huge setups, lots of lumber and whatnot, and then rebuild them all over again in April. The costs are getting pretty high there.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Julio in Manhattan, a restaurant owner. Julio, you're on WNYC. Hello?

Julio: Good morning, sir. How are you? I've heard what you folks have said. The biggest point that no one mentions nor the city is the fact that the majority of our employees, busters, servers, kitchen staff, who are low-income, mostly Latin in the restaurants in all five boroughs, these people will either have their hours reduced. They will either be laid off, and asked to maybe return if you are approved in for the following year.

Or in our case, we will probably have to let go four to five people. It's heartbreaking to us. To us, our staff, we have people that have been with us for over 20 years. We've been open since 1999, and we've been on the block since 1995. There's no way I can slice it and dice it. My wife and I will probably have to let go and cut hours on people.

All of this that they did, basically-- People complained? Absolutely. Were they right that some restaurants were bad actors? Absolutely. Could there have been better enforcement from the city? Absolutely, and there was not.

Brian Lehrer: Tell us more of your own story, Julio. What did you have before the pandemic? What did you set up? What are you going to have to change now?

Julio: Well, what we had was just our four walls, our restaurant. We had three tables that are part of our property line. That was it. Then during the pandemic, we were allowed to build up outside, which we did. Our neighbor allowed us to put tables in front of their business, which is an art gallery.

It is something that works hand in hand because whenever they have an opening of some sort or another at their gallery, they use the space. It's a community thing. It's kept clean. It's safe. We've never had an issue. Now, is everyone else in the city like this? I don't think so.

There's a lot of places that are eyesores. We live downtown, and we have some places by us that are never used. Us, in turn, we use this space all year round. There was no option given to that. It's a roadway setup.

That being said, the fees, the putting it away, it just makes no sense.

They basically said, "You know what, you want a bicycle? We're going to give you a bicycle." When you're a poor kid growing up in the city, your parents, maybe they gave you a bike, but you had to go out and buy tires. It doesn't mean that the bike was going to work. You got a bike you wanted it.

Brian Lehrer: Julio-

Julio: That's what they did with this thing.

Brian Lehrer: Ryan, go ahead. You have a question for Julio?

Ryan Kailath: Yes, Julio. Can I ask you, roughly, how many seats do you have inside? Then how many were able to add outside roughly?

Julio: Roughly, I have 10 at the bar. Then I have 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 seats. 19 to 20 seats. Then outside, we doubled that. Now, outside I'd say we have a good 1, 2, 3, 4, that's 12, 16. About 20, 24. We've pretty much almost mimicked what we have outside.

Ryan Kailath: It sounds like you've almost more than doubled outside. I imagine that having all those extra seats is crucial to your top-line revenue.

Julio: Well, not only to our top line revenue, but also the fact that the sales taxes and all the other taxes and fees that we paid that the city will no longer get, nor the state. More important than any of that is the fact that we have been able to employ an additional four to five people.

Not just seasonally, all year round. During the wintertime, we have a series of 10 to 12 heaters outside. Our customers want it. I've had people call up and say, "Hey, I want to make a reservation but for outside in December." I'm like, "I'm sorry, we can't accept that reservation. I can accept the reservation inside because right now it seems as though, come November, we will not be able to use outside. We'll have to take it down."

Brian Lehrer: Julio, thank you very much for your call. Let's hear from a neighbor of an outdoor dining establishment, John in Green Point. You're on WNYC. Hello? Hi, John.

John: Hey, Brian. How are you doing? Yes, I live above a shed. They take care of the one in front of my house. The majority of the sheds, they're just falling apart. People partying, hanging out after hours. I saw a dude sleeping in one the other night in the Lower East Side. Take them off the streets. It was nice while it lasted, but the experiment is not working.

Brian Lehrer: Because of rats, primarily in your experience?

John: Rats. I think I saw a couple of dudes smoking crack the one from the other day. It been gross. It's just let's clean them up, clean up the shed. Get them gone.

Brian Lehrer: John, thank you very much. Evan in Chinatown. You're on WNYC. Hi, Evan.

Evan: Hey, how's it going? Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: Yes.

Evan: Okay, cool. I basically think that I heard a little bit of the last caller saying that they're a bit of an eyesore that someone was doing crack and one of these. I think that we can just get better at the enforcement.

I think that obviously the net good that these outdoor dining structures or whatever form that they may take, just like vastly outweighs whatever good is achieved by having a parking space there. There's employment. There's also just good vibes that it provides to the city.

In Chinatown, specifically where I live, for example, one of my favorite restaurants, Spicy Village, you probably know it. It's very tiny inside and they can barely fit five tables inside. Now they can double the amount of customers that they get. Margins are really low in the restaurant business.

It's one of the things that makes the city special and distinguishes it from the rest of America is just the profusion of restaurants and the diversity of them. I think we should be doing everything we can to support restaurant owners and not making their lives harder and street life.

Brian Lehrer: And street life.

Evan: We can just import the annotation and stuff.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Evan, thank you very much. Well, interesting contrast between those callers, the very anti from Greenpoint and the very pro from Chinatown. Those, of course, are individuals calling as individuals. Are there neighborhoods, Ryan, where people are more up in arms or more accepting and supportive and think it's been a net plus? Does it does it break down like that at all?

Ryan Kailath: Not that I've heard. Everybody has strong feelings. That's the only common thread. Every neighborhood seems to have its detractors and its supporters.

Brian Lehrer: Here's another example. I think you mentioned the restaurant Mama Fox in Bed-Stuy before. We pulled a clip from your piece. Here's what the owner, Samantha DeStefano, had to say when you asked her about her chances of affording the new roadway setups.

Samantha DeStefano: Zero, absolutely zero. Where am I going to store it, and where am I going to get what, five, six, seven thousand dollars twice a year to pay someone to build it and take it down? Then where am I going to store it and how much is that going to cost? The amount of lumber that's involved in a structure, there's three tons of sand in the barricades. You know what I'm saying? It's just completely ridiculous to think that we can set these up and break them down.

Ryan Kailath: Yes. We had that conversation in May. She just announced her restaurant on Instagram yesterday that they'll be closing permanently on August 3rd.

Brian Lehrer: The whole restaurant?

Ryan Kailath: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: All right. I know I'm asking you to take out your crystal ball here as we run out of time since the laws are not in effect yet. What will enforcement look like? I can imagine that there's a number of restaurant owners who are willing to take the risk and keep their soon-to-be illegal sheds up for as long as possible if it means keeping their business afloat.

Will sheds need to come down on August 3rd, or do you think there will be some wiggle room for restaurant owners to keep them up at least till the end of summer?

Ryan Kailath: Yes, that is the $20,000 question. I will say that walking around this weekend, I saw two sheds coming down, actively being dismantled, talked to some of the folks doing it. I saw a couple that had previously been open, just gated and closed off and they weren't sitting anybody out there.

Seems like they're maybe trying to ease customers into the idea that these might go away. I have not yet spoken, and I talked to, I don't know, a dozen-plus restaurant owners. I've not yet met anybody who's gambling on the lack of enforcement, although that could very well come to pass.

Brian Lehrer: Ryan Kailath, WNYC, and Gothamist Arts and Culture Reporter. We will see what happens when these new outdoor dining rules take effect next Saturday, August 3rd. Thanks for coming on and explaining them.

Ryan Kailath: Thanks, Brian.

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