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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Well, spring is in the air. Tomorrow, if you haven't heard yet, it's supposed to be near 80 degrees around here. Next Tuesday, April 1st, is when outdoor dining expands again under the rules the city put in place last year. Our local news website Gothamist has a great thing. It's a published map of outdoor dining locations that have been approved by the city, citing examples such as Sailor in Fort Greene, B&H Dairy on Second Avenue, and Arts and Crafts, the popular Columbia University hangout in Morningside Heights.

The accompanying article also notes that only 47 places were fully approved as of earlier this week and quotes Comptroller Brad Lander as slamming the Transportation Department for the slow rollout. Our arts and culture reporter, Ryan Kailath, calls it a far cry from the Wild West days of outdoor dining structures at the height of the pandemic and joins us now to discuss what's allowed, what's coming where, and to take your calls with what you're looking forward to or dreading with a partial return of more outdoor dining next week.

Restaurant owners, call in. Neighbors, call in. Customers, we invite your stories, feelings, opinions, and questions. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Hey, Ryan, welcome back to the show.

Ryan Kailath: Hey, Brian. I look forward to hearing from the parking lobby on this one.

Brian Lehrer: [laughs] Right. How much easier has it been to park folks since those sheds came down in your neighborhood and who cares and who doesn't about that? First of all, I see many places that have had outdoor dining all winter for those hardy enough. Many that had some kind of outdoor dining before the pandemic have been there through the winter. Maybe you should start with what categories of outdoor dining and outdoor dining permits there are and why it continued in some places, at least on the sidewalks.

Ryan Kailath: Yes, that's a great distinction. The ones that you've seen all winter, those are sidewalk. That's the one part of the program that's allowed year-round. The thing that's coming back, the expansion you talked about April 1st, that's the seasonal, what we call the dining sheds, the roadway setups programs, the things that sit and take up parking spots. That's seasonal April through the end of October.

There's a third thing, open streets. We all know this. You've probably got a couple in your neighborhood where they drag out barriers and temporarily close down streets to traffic. Restaurants are also allowed to put tables and chairs out then, but that's a separate program. Really, we're talking about sidewalk versus in the road here.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Remind us of the rules that were debated and imposed and what you're seeing now.

Ryan Kailath: This went on in the media and public opinion and city council for a while, this debate. Rats and parking and noise complaints. The new rules, there's design rules for the roadway sheds, many of which make a lot of sense. Got to be able to easily dismantle. They shouldn't block hydrants. They shouldn't obscure vision of street signs and stop signs. I think everybody can agree on that stuff. The fees and application process are what have been really controversial here and I think led to the steep drop.

At any given month during the pandemic, the DOT estimates there were about 6,000 restaurants operating outside, or establishments: bars, cafes, et cetera. At least as of next month, when the seasonal program expands fully, we've got about 2,500. That's a drop of more than half. I think the process and the cost have been the biggest complaints about that. It's very convoluted. That's why we've seen so few approved fully. There's a lot of conditional approvals. It costs people, especially if they want those roadway sheds. It costs well into the five figures, like more than 10, more than 15, approaching 2025.

Brian Lehrer: Talk more about the economics of running a restaurant in the city. I know you told us off the air that they were changing rapidly even before the pandemic. To what you just said about the cost of maintaining and, I guess, storing and re-erecting and taking down at the end of the season, those sheds, is prohibitive for many.

I remember when the city first passed these new rules and they were touting it as we've institutionalized outdoor dining as a permanent thing in New York, at least for part of the year in the warm weather months. They were celebrating institutionalizing outdoor dining. What we were hearing from a lot of restaurateurs was, "No, this is really telling us we don't want you to do this," and making it really difficult because of how expensive the rules make it to maintain it at all.

Ryan Kailath: No, that's a great observation. Everybody said this was a great piece of spin. Everybody celebrated from the New York Times to others. Outdoor dining has been made permanent. A couple outlets there were saying, "If you read the fine print, this is kind of the end of outdoor dining." The truth is somewhere in the middle. It's not over, but it is severely reduced.

To your other point, yes, some context here. Even before the pandemic disruptions, the shutdowns, and the inflation shock disruptions in 2021 through now, running a small restaurant in New York was getting more difficult, and even very busy, very successful places were closing because the math didn't math with rising rents and rising costs. The owner of Prune, she had a famous essay around 2019 or so in the New York Times magazine about why she had to close her place that was popping every night.

In that sense, outdoor dining during the pandemic, it wasn't just a lifeline to restaurants that had been shuttered by COVID lockdowns. It was also a lifeline for the whole running a small restaurant in New York City business model. All those extra seats come with extra revenue for restaurants without a commensurate increase in costs. We saw this wave of restaurants opening during the pandemic that relied on those outdoor seats to make their business work. Now that it's not free, now that it's more regulated, much more expensive, that wave is receding, and places are already closing that can't adapt.

Brian Lehrer: Even more to that point, I think you told us off the air that you saw a wave of late pandemic restaurants opening that relied on outdoor dining to make their businesses work economically. That was way after lockdown when anybody could go back inside to a restaurant, and a lot of people were., I know some restaurants have had more or have had less resumption of business indoors at the level before the pandemic. Nevertheless, it was allowed. Yet, late in the pandemic, when indoor dining was fully allowed again, you saw a wave of restaurants opening with outdoors being part of their model.

Ryan Kailath: Absolutely. I mean, there's places, and several restaurateurs have told me this. Our business doesn't survive without the as expanded as possible outdoor dining. We've got, I'm making these numbers up, but 25, 30 seats inside and 50 seats outside. We can't run in this fancy neighborhood or with this sort of service or these things we provide. We can't run without those outdoor seats.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call from William in Astoria. You're on WNYC. Hi, William.

William: Hello, Brian. I just think it's an interesting topic given where I live. I have an organization, Project Underdog International. We're working in communities where this mass deportation situation you talked about with the previous speaker is really creating a crisis in restaurants. Just yesterday, we connected a local journalist with a local restaurateur, deli owner. I don't want to give the name because people are sensitive to talk about this.

We're seeing restaurants, especially Latin American restaurants that have a highly Latin American immigrant clientele in crisis. This guy at this deli spoke very passionately and then movingly about the state of his restaurant, the fact that people aren't coming out to eat. I've talked to other restaurant owners along Roosevelt Avenue, who are just in crisis. My thought and question, i guess, is--

Brian Lehrer: I'll just throw in this and then you can ask your question. Of course, it relates to our last segment, just as they're trying to intimidate people from protesting by detaining even a small number of previous protesters, so many people who are undocumented or know anybody who is even in Latin American areas in Queens and elsewhere are afraid to go out. I know this personally from what people I know are telling me. They're taking their kids to school. They're taking their kids back home. They're not doing anything else.

William: Same story. What can we do, these wonderful, beautiful restaurants? I go to restaurants from 74th into Corona. Wonderful Mexican restaurants. I go to one, Pico de Gallo restaurant. It's wonderful. They have a mural, beautiful music, but people aren't going out. I'm like, "I know Spanish, and I don't want to see that restaurant go down." Also, not just to state the crisis, but to talk about what can we do as New Yorkers of all races and cultures and language.

We're New Yorkers. What can we do to support these restaurants? Because I don't want to see Pico de Gallo restaurant, which I love, go down. I don't want to see these restaurants go down. I would turn it around into a question to the speaker who seems to know about the restaurant industry. What can we all do to support these restaurants and encourage our elected officials and folks in government to let's respond and not see a wave of closures of wonderful restaurants with great food, great music, great place to be?

Brian Lehrer: William, thank you. Thank you for your call with our arts and culture reporter Ryan Kailath, talking about the official return of outdoor dining that includes sheds in the streets on April 1st next Tuesday. Ryan, go ahead, if you have anything for that caller.

Ryan Kailath: William, I appreciate that. My colleagues here at WNYC/Gothamist have done some reporting on Corona, East Elmhurst neighborhoods out there where you're seeing businesses and streets kind of hollowed out by fears of what this administration, this federal administration is doing.

To answer your question, I think the most immediate thing you can do to help those businesses out, which is patronize them. On a policy level, I'm sure the restaurant industry lobby has a long list of regulations they would like to see changed or relaxed. The one that we're talking about here, outdoor dining, I wouldn't be surprised if it does change just because this rollout has been so botched. There are so many complaints.

Everybody is pointing fingers. DOT is pointing fingers at the city council saying you drew up a complicated, onerous law. Comptrollers pointing fingers at DOT saying you're not executing the law well. Community boards are mad because these outdoor dining hearings are sucking up all their time. Restaurateurs are mad because we just saw the whole city council convene to do the important work of denying a small cafe about 12 seats outside. Nobody's happy with this. I imagine this season is going to be a pilot in which everybody involved, every stakeholder, starts to draft the ways they want the outdoor dining program to change.

To your question, William, of what you might do structurally if you want to keep an eye on that policy conversation, is get involved locally as those changes start to roll out.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call from one of the several callers who are on the line who are against this expansion, seasonal expansion of sheds in the street. Sabrina in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Sabrina.

Sabrina: Hi. I'm not against expanding the capacity of the restaurants to do business, but I am against abusing it so that pedestrians-- Nobody talks about pedestrians, but between the street, these street sheds, and the expansion, for some reason, I don't know why it's legal, but a lot of restaurants have enclosed an area beyond their usual line of demarcation of the building. They've expanded that, which leaves very little space between the two. It encroaches on the sidewalk space for pedestrians.

In addition, the waiters go back and forth from the street shed to the building to get the food and so on. It's very popular restaurant, so there are long lines, and where can they wait on the sidewalk? It's really, really limiting pedestrian walks.

Brian Lehrer: Sabrina, thank you very much. Because our time is going to run out soon, I'll let Sabrina stand for the several people who are calling or texting who are not so happy about how this has been going and the way it's going to return. Just to acknowledge that those people are there. Ryan, what about the particular issue that she raises of how much of a footprint on the sidewalk, never mind going into the street a restaurant can take, and also the issue of when they can enclose and not just put a roof?

Ryan Kailath: During the Wild West pandemic, you could get away with basically anything. We did see hydrants blocked and streets blocked, not even enough to let a stroller or wheelchair go by. Part of the new rules. I don't have them with me. The book is like 35 pages long or something of all the new rules. They're supposed to address this. If listeners are seeing things in your neighborhood that seem like they might not be flying with a well-thought-out new regulation, I'm sure they can report that to the city. The new rules are supposed to take care of that, as well as with the enclosures. Those aren't allowed in the same way that they were allowed to get away with during the pandemic.

Brian Lehrer: A text from somebody concerned about new rules that have been imposed by the city on restaurants using the sheds says about the outdoor street-level dining sheds, there is a new rule that the flooring has to be lifted every week for cleaning underneath. Do you know about that? I guess that's an anti-rats measure.

Ryan Kailath: Like I said, the booklet is like 30-something pages. I don't remember that specific one, but I totally believe it. yes, that would be the reason.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Last thing, you reported on the station that there's a slow rollout of these approvals even though they're supposed to take effect next Tuesday, April 1st for the warmer months, where these in-the-street sheds are allowed. There's some pathetically low number that Comptroller Brad Lander was blaming on the Transportation Department. Is there conflict between the Comptroller's office and the DOT? Are they slow-rolling it for any particular reason, or is this just bureaucracy? What's going on there?

Ryan Kailath: It seems like just bureaucracy red tape. It was very slow, the whole process, the 30-day comment period, community board, city council, et cetera. DOT has given very few full approvals at somewhere in the '70s, I believe, but they've said, "You know what? This thing has taken so long. We're going to do conditional approvals." They've given a couple thousand like, "Hey, your application seems in good shape. We're going to let you go for now."

An interesting one is that you need to get through that whole process before you can ask the state liquor authority for permission to extend your liquor license outdoors. This stat's been making the rounds. Only seven restaurants have been approved by the SLA to serve liquor outside. Newsflash for our audience, more than seven restaurants will be serving alcohol outside. I think I've seen more than seven just walking around my neighborhood this week in the warm weather.

Brian Lehrer: With paper bags under the table, right?

Ryan Kailath: Yes. A lawyer who represents the hospitality industry told me that during all four pandemic years, SLA didn't issue a single citation for improper outdoor dining drinking. I'm not the state, but I think we're going to get away with this.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, what about tomorrow? It's supposed to be like 79 degrees. This outdoor dining season isn't supposed to start until Tuesday, the 1st of April, but I personally have my eye on one of my local establishments that has one of these permits for my first outdoor dining experience of 2025 tomorrow. Can they do it?

Ryan Kailath: There's about 1,800 sidewalk cafes that are approved, and those are allowed to operate year-round, so you should be good.

Brian Lehrer: Can they open their serving tables?

Ryan Kailath: Serving alcohol, you mean?

Brian Lehrer: No, I mean serving in the street, in the shed, this industry.

Ryan Kailath: In the shed? No, they're allowed to start building. You've seen those going up this week. I've seen a few, but I think butts and seats are not allowed till April 1st.

Brian Lehrer: All right.

Ryan Kailath: We'll see if somebody's got their shed all the way up.

Brian Lehrer: I was going to say-

Ryan Kailath: I think we may see a few people eating.

Brian Lehrer: -we'll see how many summonses they give out for opening three days early when it's 80 degrees. Ryan Kailath, arts and culture reporter for WNYC. Thanks, Ryan.

Ryan Kailath: Thanks, Brian.

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