Title: NYC Schools and 'Mass Deportation'.

[MUSIC]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. As ICE raids ramp up in New York City as well as elsewhere, we'll now turn our attention to how President Trump's policy of mass deportation is impacting schools so far, schools in particular. Earlier this week, the administration mandated arrest quotas due to the president's " disappointment with the results" of last week's raid. That's according to The Washington Post. They say each ICE agency field office is now required to make 75 arrests per day, a total of 12 to 1,500 arrests per day around the country.

Now, while the Trump administration has repeated that the first targets for ICE would be those living on US soil illegally with criminal records, Gothamist reports that immigration raids in New York City have produced "collateral arrests of those not charged with crimes." They always said that that would happen, but under former President Biden, such arrests were illegal. Tom Holman, Trump's border czar, has said that collateral arrests are to be expected. Additionally, Trump has rescinded protected areas enforcement, which means ICE is now allowed to conduct raids in churches, hospitals, and even schools. We're going to talk about the schools now with Michael Elsen-Rooney, reporter at the education news website Chalkbeat. Michael, thanks for joining us. Welcome back to WNYC.

Michael Elsen-Rooney: Thanks for having me, Brian. Great to be here.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, please help us report this story if you have anything to share. Has Trump's mass deportation policy impacted your school or your child's school? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Not to say there has to have been a raid at the school necessarily for you to call in. The title of Michael's article is simply Everyone Is Scared. Have fears of raids prompted letters home from school administrators or serious conversations among classmates? Are there empty seats every morning in your kid's classroom now that ICE is focused on the city from families too afraid to send their kids out? If you're keeping your kids home to avoid ICE and you can stay anonymous, please call and tell your story, or you can text. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Michael, maybe it's obvious, but why did you title your story Everyone Is Scared?

Michael Elsen-Rooney: Well, that was a direct quote we heard from a mother staying at a shelter in Manhattan. The idea of the story I did with my colleague Alex Zimmerman and Gwynne Hogan at the city was to look at how schools were affected during the first week of Trump's administration. Right away, when we started talking to families at shelters, it became very clear there are lots of families that, at least during that first week, had just kept their kids home. The prevalent message was that there's just so much fear. Even when schools are doing a lot to try to reassure families, in many cases, that wasn't enough. We just heard story after story about families who are staying out of school.

Brian Lehrer: I want to play a clip of Mayor Adams from his news conference last week in which he urged immigrant families to continue sending their children to school. This is 13 seconds.

Mayor Adams: We want to bring down the anxiety. We want our immigrants to know that this is a city of immigrants, this is a country of immigrants. It's imperative that you go to school, use the hospital service, use the police services.

Brian Lehrer: We hear the mayor attempting to quell the anxiety among parents, but we also know that he has somewhat entered Trump's circle now. What are other school-related sources who you speak to saying about the safety from ICE of sending their kids to school?

Michael Elsen-Rooney: I think what we heard largely from people who work in schools, we talked to a number of school leaders, principals, is that they do feel like they've gotten pretty good, clear guidance from the city education department about the policy, which is not to permit non-local law enforcement, including ICE, to enter schools. The protocol for them is to call the council at the DOE, who will then tell them if this meets one of the narrow circumstances under which they're allowed to go into schools, if they have an actual warrant signed by a judge. We heard generally that people feel like the city education department has put out some pretty clear, proactive guidance, has done some training. We did hear, number one, that it's hard for school leaders to keep up with all these changes that seem to be happening every day at the federal level, and wondering, "Does that change the reality?"

On his first day in office, Trump rescinds this sensitive locations guidance that ICE followed that previously they wouldn't do raids in schools and churches and other places like that. That doesn't change the city's protocol. Certainly, you can imagine, as a school leader, hearing all this stuff is scary and difficult to keep up with. Then we did hear from some people, we quoted a principal in the story, saying that no matter the guidance that the DOE, the city education department is putting out, hearing the way the mayor is refraining from criticizing Trump, refraining from criticizing some of the specific guidance about doing raids in schools does not make them feel protected or reassured.

Brian Lehrer: What is the scenario that people think might even occur now that this protected spaces order has gone away? Would ICE really send agents into schools to snatch kids or only if there's an adult in the school who, for some reason, is wanted by them?

Michael Elsen-Rooney: We didn't hear about specific scenarios people are envisioning. So far, we have not seen that. I think part of it is just a fear of being separated from your kids at a time when immigration enforcement fears are ramping up. It could be that that enforcement targets the parents at the shelter. To have that happen when families are separated, I think, is really scary. People, I think, don't want to take that risk.

Brian Lehrer: Larry in Highlands in Jersey, you're on WNYC. Hi, Larry.

Larry: Hey, Brian. Sorry, if this is off-topic. I just got in the car. Something that I've noticed, my wife's from Puerto Rico, so some of the stories they've been hearing about people being picked up just for speaking Spanish is really disturbing, being as Puerto Ricans are US citizens. Something I've noticed down here where there are a lot of commercial vehicles, flooring, and painting, and stuff with Hispanic names on them, they all seem to be driving 5 or 10 miles an hour below the speed limit, I imagine, worried about getting a ticket and what might happen after that. Just an observation.

Brian Lehrer: Larry, thank you very much. Eileen in Hoboken, you're on WNYC. Hi, Eileen.

Eileen: Hi, Brian. I'm sorry, I'm a little sick, so let me just get through this. I work at an adult school in Maplewood, New Jersey. We have an ESL program that we've had since 1938. We have four ESL classes, two beginners and intermediate and advanced. Our classes normally sell out. We have waiting lists. We have lines out our office door to register. We're getting phone calls off the hook from people wanting to register. Most of our students are lately Haitian, but we do have a lot of Hispanic students, and we occasionally have Eastern European students. We have 20 students registered across three classes. We had to drop our advanced class. Nobody registered for it. There was no one calling on the phone and there was no one lined up outside our office. It's not just children. It's adults, too.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Michael, that's an interesting anecdote that reflects the fear of going out into any kind of public space, including a school for an ESL class for a grown-up, huh?

Michael Elsen-Rooney: Totally. I think you're starting to see other ways in which people are not going out into public. The city had another story yesterday about immigrant vendors who usually take their food carts out, being more reluctant to do that. I think the school part is part of a much larger story.

Brian Lehrer: Does your reporting indicate that the New York City Department of Education or any other one that you may have looked at is sending home specific guidance, either a know-your-rights handout or any particular information that's intended to be helpful to families who might be targeted?

Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yes, I think that the city's approach has generally been to offer a lot of training to schools and some to parent leaders as well. Then schools on their own, particularly ones with large immigrant communities, are doing a lot of work. They're working with legal groups to do know-your-rights training. They're sending kids home with informational cards if they were detained that show their rights. Then we've heard some pretty amazing personal examples of principals and folks in schools, just doing what they need to to reassure families. We talked to a principal who got a call from a mother early after Trump took office, saying she was scared to bring her kid to school. The principal said, "I will get arrested before I let anything happen to your daughter, and we'll lock her in my office if necessary." We've definitely heard that type of thing from other schools who've said they would risk getting arrested themselves before allowing people to come into their school.

Brian Lehrer: Kenny in Tarrytown, you're on WNYC. Hello, Kenny.

Kenny: Hi, Brian. Hi, Michael. Thank you. I wanted to mention that, as you guys might have heard earlier this week, ICE agents did show up in our neighboring village of Sleepy Hollow, attempting to detain a couple of individuals at their households. Here in Tarrytown, Sleepy Hollow, our kids share a school district. That school district is made up of kids who are roughly half the percentages of Hispanic descent. In Sleepy Hollow, the community, more than half the population is Hispanic.

What people need to understand is this isn't some isolated thing where, as the administration might try and make it seem, we do this insular, surgical thing, we go to this home, we're out, that's it. No, no, no. The school district had to send out a note to all families in the district, making sure they understood that ICE had not come to the campuses of the schools and put the students themselves in any jeopardy. The students in the schools were panicked. Teachers were distraught about how to make them less panicked. Now the community is panicked and in a state of alarm.

The flip side of it is they're also now feeling vigilant and wanting to come together to be a bulwark against this being an intrusive force in the community. It's just an example of the fact that these things don't happen in a vacuum. There's a chain reaction and it affects everybody, including children, even if they're not targeted themselves.

Brian Lehrer: Do you, in your experience, Kenny, see any kind of divided thinking in terms of like, "Well, we support the deportation, as many people do, of criminal people who've committed serious crimes, who've also been here illegally in immigration terms as compared to the law-abiding ones"?

Kenny: Yes, there is some differentiation there or people make that kind of distinction for themselves. There seems to be a united sentiment, in our community at least, that once this starts psychologically affecting the children and reverberates out in that way, that there needs to be a better approach. I should also point out Sleepy Hollow and Tarrytown are both constantly referenced as being among the safest communities statistically in New York State. The likelihood that anyone that's being pursued here is one of these hyperviolent criminals that are being talked about as being the targets of sweeps, that would be at odds with the actual reality on the ground here.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for your call. Some people are chiming in to support the policy. One listener texts, "If you are here legally in the United States of America, you have nothing to worry about." I think Lisa in Brooklyn is going to say something along those lines. Lisa, you're at WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Lisa: Wow, thanks for finally taking my call. I usually call in about sex and gender. I'm not calling in to say if you're here legally, no problem. I'm not calling in to say that at all. I am no fan of Trump, and I think these are heavy-handed executive orders. The main thing that I want from the media is to not whip me into a frenzy as happened the first time, and to put all of these policies in context and to see them as reactions to left-wing overreach. I don't think it is appropriate for my kid's school, for instance, to send me information about this that assumes that everyone feels the same way about these issues about Trump and to play politics like that.

I think the media, the schools, all of the grown-up institutions should be putting these in context. We did have a massive immigration problem in the city and in the country. More specifically, you've already talked about it some, but the executive orders on sex and gender, for instance, are probably 96.37% reasonable. There are also reactions to left-wing overreach. Help people try to understand what they're reacting to. If you're worried about kids being harmed at school, well, our side, the liberals, closed schools for a very long time after they needed to be closed. This idea that everything Trump does is 100% terrible and we should all be unified against him, that doesn't help us. We need to understand how we contributed to it and we need to stay calm.

Brian Lehrer: That's a deep background analysis. I get it. Certainly, people will have differing opinions about the sex and gender orders. What do you think then is the appropriate response, specifically with respect to children in schools whose families might be here undocumented but otherwise law-abiding?

Lisa: Whose families are undocumented but are otherwise law-abiding. That's tough because that's a gray area and different administrations have handled those issues differently. You can talk to those people specifically, and you can create an environment in which people who are worried about that can seek help, and people who said what the person-- You would assume that I was like the person who texted something before. "Hey, if you're here legally, what do you have to worry about?" I'm much more nuanced than that.

Brian Lehrer: I understand.

Lisa: You can create an environment in which multiple viewpoints are respected, and feeling safe doesn't mean you'll never be challenged or you'll only hear one point of view. If you are concerned, you should be able to go to your principal or your parent coordinator. I don't think the school should be sending out-- Last time Trump was elected, all of the schools here in District 15 in Brooklyn sent out these statements about we all feel the same way. You know what, I did back then, but I don't because I've developed a lot of expertise, specifically about gender-affirming care, and we're wrong. Our side is wrong. It's allowed me to no longer have to just be outraged all the time about Trump because I can try to evaluate-

Brian Lehrer: I hear you.

Lisa: -based on real information, but I am outraged all the time at the media.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Certainly, people will agree or disagree about whether her point of view on gender-affirming care is the right point of view. I'm just acknowledging there are different opinions out there, but we acknowledge your opinion, Lisa. Thank you very much. To follow up on her call and what she says teachers should or shouldn't do and not assume everybody's all on the same page in a district, are teachers, Michael, being instructed to talk to their students about potential ICE raids? Are there drills or protocols in place or anything?

Michael Elsen-Rooney: I certainly haven't heard about drills or protocols. We have this network of international schools that are specifically geared towards serving immigrant students and so are really plugged into this. I think a lot of schools are trying to be very cognizant about not whipping people up into unnecessary fear, because, as we know, that has consequences, too, and people stay out of school, and that's a problem in its own right, while also trying to be very as reassuring as they can, as thorough as they can about what the protocols are and what they'll do to protect the kids who are in their school right now, regardless of how they got there or whether you agree with the policy that brought them there. There is this real tension about how do you do that without the unintended side effect of creating additional fear. Fear, as we know, can take on a life of its own and can be very hard to contain.

Brian Lehrer: Let me take one more caller who I think wants to help us report the story of what's going on now, though it doesn't have to do with education. Jessica in Dutchess County, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jessica.

Jessica: Good morning. Thank you for taking my call. During the first Trump administration, working in health care, I'll never forget one specific shift where we had a patient and their family come to us for care significantly late in the course, where you look at it and you're like, "Had you come here earlier, this wouldn't have been as involved." Then it took a lot of convincing. I will tell you, I'm Hispanic. The patient was Hispanic as well. A lot of convincing to have this patient stay, receive the appropriate care, let the family know that he was safe, they were safe.

To the point where it upset me so much at that point in time, I called my hospital administrator. It wasn't too late in the evening. I said, "This is what's happening. This is what's out there." He assured me. He gave me assurances at that time. He since has moved on. We have a new administration at our institution. I can say they will be supportive as well. Just like the previous caller had said, this reverberates within the community. We have sectors of our community that will not access care at our institution because they say "it's not for them." They're a different clientele.

Brian Lehrer: You think that has changed or the number of people who wouldn't access care there has increased since the new administration came in?

Jessica: I will say I am prepared for that. I'm totally prepared for that again. Yes, I can probably see myself in a situation where I'll be calling my current administrator and saying, "Hey, this is happening again. How are we going to get the word out there with regards to the community that they can access care services at our institution as well?" Hospitals, not-for-profits are between a rock and a hard place, especially with health care. We're relying a lot on federal health care dollars. How that message is going to come across is going to be different for different institutions.

Brian Lehrer: We already heard in reporting yesterday and discussed it in an earlier segment that transportation funds might be distributed to communities based in part on how cooperative they are with the deportation effort. Maybe that's going to happen with healthcare federal funding too. We will have to see. Jessica, thank you for calling that out. Maybe that's the next segment or a future segment on the ramifications of all the change that's taking place that we will need to do ramifications for people's healthcare who may be now afraid to go and access it. We end this conversation about education in that respect with Michael Elsen-Rooney, reporter at Chalkbeat New York, the education news website. Michael, thanks a lot.

Michael Elsen-Rooney: Thanks, Brian.

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