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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. We begin today with an announcement. We can now announce that the New York City Campaign Finance Board has selected WNYC, along with New York 1 and the news organization The City, to host debates in this New York City election year. That will include me as a questioner, and several journalists from the city, as well as my first guest today, Errol Louis, political anchor on Spectrum News, New York 1. Some of you also know Errol as a New York Magazine columnist and host of the podcast You Decide. Errol, it's always great to have you on the show. Welcome back to WNYC.

Errol Louis: Always great to be with you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Let's tell the listeners about these debates and how this works. Most candidates for mayor and the other citywide offices, comptroller and public advocate, are required to participate in debates sponsored by the Campaign Finance Board. Maybe you could explain to the audience why that is. What are the rules about that?

Errol Louis: Sure. Over the years, we've had a campaign finance system that has expanded the match. Basically, what happens is you give the candidates a lot of incentives to get small donations from people in their district, or in this case, in New York City. In exchange, you get an eight-to-one match. You get a lot of public money, but one condition that is attached to that money is that you participate in the official debates that are sanctioned by the Campaign Finance Board. In this case, there will be two for the candidates who qualify and are participating in taking this public money in the primary for mayor. There'll be some requirements down the road for the general election as well.

Brian Lehrer: I think many people don't realize how generous that matching funds law is. Listeners, if you didn't know this, it's an eight-to-one match for small donations, donations up to $25, eight-to-one. If a donor gives a candidate $100, the taxpayers kick in another $800. Errol, tell me if you agree with my take on history about why that is. I think this amount of leverage for small donors was a reaction to the Mayor Michael Bloomberg years when he, as the richest man in the city as well as its mayor--

We talk so much about the richest man in the world, Elon Musk, having so much power in the federal government. The richest man in New York City was its mayor for 12 years. He financially overwhelmed his opponents in the campaigns that culminated in his 2009 reelection bid. I looked this up this morning to refresh my memory on the exact numbers, when, according to The New York Times, Bloomberg spent $102 million of his own money to get reelected, outspending his Democratic opponent, Bill Thompson, by 14 to 1. Is that why we have this system, as a hedge against oligarchy, if you want to call it that?

Errol Louis: That is a specific example, but for the reformers who have been pushing this, this was really just a second-best substitute for full public financing of campaigns. For a lot of different reasons, including constitutional ones, we are not in a system where that's likely to happen anytime soon, if at all. Short of having the government pay for 100% of the campaigns, the general idea was let's ratchet it up as high as possible.

It's only a matter of time before there'll be people saying, "What we really need is a 10 to 1 match or a 14 to 1 match," and on and on and on. The general idea, though, I think, is certainly that you want people to be able to compete even if they happen not to be personally wealthy. The Bloomberg example certainly made that clear.

Brian Lehrer: The matching funds come with that catch. If you accept them, you're required to participate in broadcast debates that the Campaign Finance Board sponsors, and they get to choose which media organizations get to host the debates. In this case, as in a number of past cycles, you and I have both been chosen, our news organizations, along with some others.

Another Bloomberg footnote about that, many listeners may not know this story, even though it was very public at the time, and, Errol, you were involved, in the 2005 mayoral race, listeners, Errol and I were questioners in a mayoral debate at the Apollo Theater sponsored by the Campaign Finance Board. Bloomberg was not required to attend because he wasn't taking matching funds for the reason we discussed a minute ago. He was spending $84 million of his own money that year, according to New York Times detective statistics.

He had volunteered to show up anyway as an act of good faith in our democracy to this debate at the Apollo being aired on New York 1 and WNYC. Errol, you and I and our teams did all our homework and prepared for that debate. Then at the last minute, Bloomberg decided not to show. Remember that?

Errol Louis: Oh, I very vividly remember it. I was not yet at New York 1. I was at the Daily News at the time.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, it was your predecessor. Sorry.

Errol Louis: Oh, somebody. [laughs] I'll tell you what, here's what I remember most about that, Brian, is that they said that there was a potential terrorist attack. Therefore, the mayor couldn't be there. That story, which I believe was a false story, that story was actually supported by the police commissioner, Ray Kelly, who I have a lot of personal regard for, and who I think was a legendary, really great public servant.

I think he told a fib there because that was the first and last we ever heard about this terrible looming, pending attack. There was no follow-up. There were no suspects. There were no arrests. There was no investigation. There was nothing. It was not a good moment for the Bloomberg administration.

Brian Lehrer: Now a footnote to history. Now let's get to this year. Our bid to host some of the debates in this primary season was selected by the Campaign Finance Board, as I said, along with Channel 4 and Channel 11, who will host other debates. We were given Democratic and Republican primary debates for mayor and Democratic and Republican primary debates for comptroller. As it turns out, folks, the Republicans aren't having debates for their mayor or comptroller nominations. Errol, why is that?

Errol Louis: I think in the first place, neither of the two Republican candidates for comptroller qualified for Campaign Finance Board funding. They are going to be on the ballot, and presumably, they are running against each other, but it did not rise to the level-- They did not get enough donations or meet the other criteria to participate in the campaign finance system. Without that, they have no requirement to debate. They may end up arguing against each other on a street corner someplace,-

Brian Lehrer: [chuckles]

Errol Louis: -but it will not be an official Campaign Finance Board debate.

Brian Lehrer: Did you say that's for the Republican nomination for comptroller? Is it same thing for mayor, Curtis Sliwa hasn't raised enough money?

Errol Louis: Oh, there is no primary for mayor. There is no Republican primary.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, he's got no opponent?

Errol Louis: He's got no opponents. Nobody wanted to circulate whatever it was, a trivially small number of petitions that would have enabled there to be some level of competition. The Republicans are doing it a little differently this time.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, I see. You know the old cliché about the difference between the two parties and who they nominate? Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line.

Errol Louis: Yes, it's a very short line.

[chuckling]

Brian Lehrer: Right, which is the Republican establishment tends to nominate one person and people fall in line. The Democrats have this relationship with their voters where they're really looking for someone really special. This is not even to say what system is better than the other, but Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line. We have now started preparing. I will tell the listeners, Errol, that you and I and our teams had our first planning meeting yesterday for a Democratic comptroller debate on Tuesday night, June 10th, and a Democratic mayoral debate on Thursday night, June 12th, 7:00 PM. Mark your calendars.

Let's let the listeners in on how we're having to prepare for the mayoral debate that is such a crowded primary. It looks like we'll have as many as nine candidates in that one debate based on the rules of who qualifies. The nine are Andrew Cuomo, Zohran Mamdani, Brad Lander, Scott Stringer, Zellnor Myrie, Whitney Tilson, Jessica Ramos, Adrienne Adams, and Michael Blake. A few of those might not make the Campaign Finance Board's minimum criteria for being included, we'll see, but it looks like it'll be at least six people.

I think you and I and our other questioner, the great political reporter for the city, Katie Honan, have a challenge here of getting to enough major issues while still giving each issue enough time for the viewers and the listeners to actually learn something substantive from up to nine people having an exchange. I think this is the largest debate field I've ever encountered. Have you ever done anything this sprawling?

Errol Louis: Oh, sure, yes, several times, I got to tell you. [chuckles] Some of these debates that I've moderated for district attorney, the Manhattan district attorney raised four years ago, which was a Zoom debate, I just remember seeing all of these faces on my screen. I couldn't believe what was going on. Same with the mayoral debates, frankly, four years ago. There have been a few. In fact, we had a special election for a public advocate after Tish James became attorney general. It seemed like everyone in the world wanted that job for some reason. I think we had 12 people or something like that.

Brian Lehrer: Wow.

Errol Louis: It can be done, by the way. You heard me say this in the planning meeting. It can be done. It takes some time. It takes some patience. You, I believe, have to really get the audience used to the idea that the trade-off that we all understand has to be made really just can't be avoided. There's a certain amount of depth that you're not going to get to if you've got nine candidates who each want to weigh in on a particular issue.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. By the way, factual correction because we always want to be factually accurate here, down to crossing the Ts and dotting the I's if we can, our planning meeting was Tuesday, it wasn't yesterday. There you go. I guess we could have done, but maybe this isn't the way the Campaign Finance Board works, what they've done in some presidential debates in the primary seasons when there were so many candidates. Remember they had on the cable channels what they call the kiddie table of people who aren't polling, as well as who is considered the major candidates. That's not the way [unintelligible 00:11:48].

Errol Louis: It's a terrible idea. [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: Why do you think?

Errol Louis: No matter how you do it.

Brian Lehrer: Two debates. That's two debates on consecutive days that way. Go ahead.

Errol Louis: Even if you did it randomly, if you did it alphabetically, if you did it by polling, if you did it by, I don't know, financial support, it's just we're lucky to get the public's attention for any amount of time for these candidates and these races and these issues. I just think it's a disservice to put a heavy, heavy thumb on the scale and say, "These are the people who don't really matter. We're going to talk to them on Thursday at midnight."

Brian Lehrer: [laughs]

Errol Louis: Either you bring everybody in or you don't is my feeling about it.

Brian Lehrer: That's what we're doing. I also want to acknowledge our off-air co-sponsors who are sharing their insights behind the scenes. New York Law School, Center for New York City and State Law, the Museum of the City of New York, the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at CUNY, and the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. In fact, the mayoral debate, I believe, will be at John Jay.

Listeners, because we believe in public participation here, you know that, we're inviting you to suggest a question that Errol or I or Katie Honan might ask at the mayoral debate. We have a webpage you can go to and suggest a question. It's wnyc.org/debatequestion. Simple enough. Wnyc.org/debatequestion. No guarantees, of course, that your question will be used, but we'll consider every suggestion seriously. In any case, we always want to know what WNYC listeners are curious or concerned about. All of your proposed questions will at least inform our thinking about what's important to get to and what's on people's minds. WNYC.org/debatequestion to suggest one from you.

Errol, one reason I think the mayoral debates will be important is that the candidate who's leading in the polls, Andrew Cuomo, has largely been avoiding reporters and other non-mandatory mayoral forums. Here's a New York Times headline. "Cuomo's Campaign Strategy, Limit Appearances and Avoid Confrontation." I'll note, I've mentioned this before, that in the context of this show, we invited all the candidates in the primary to come on the show and take questions from me and calls from our listeners. All eight other candidates have done it, only Cuomo has not. Do you agree that that's been his strategy, and the mandatory debate policy to get the matching funds will serve a public purpose in this respect?

Errol Louis: I'll tell you a couple of things. One is you and I are in the same boat. I've been able to talk with a lot of the other candidates, we haven't been able to speak with the former governor. Been in touch with his people and they're very forthcoming behind the scenes, but that's not a substitute for actually a public discussion, which I think the public really deserves at this point. What we're going to see, I think, is more of this. I think that the Times summary is accurate. They're doing what strategically works best for them. They're under no obligation to do otherwise.

This is a case where there's a mismatch between how people run for office and what would be best as far as helping the public make a decision and, frankly, governing the city after the election is over. It's really, really important. I've been moderating a number of different off-camera forums for different groups that have wanted to do this. I know you've done the same, Brian, and you know that the hours and hours and hours of preparation, and the layers and layers of different subtle policy contradictions and problems and bumps in the road, and the extensive record that you have to look at that so many of these officials already have, it means you really have to put in a lot of time.

You and I will try and make it seem like a nice, friendly 20-minute chat, but behind that 20-minute chat is hours of research to try and make sure we're really getting to the heart of really important issues, and making sure that the policy options that are before the city are really laid out before the election and not after. On the other hand, what's in the best interest of any given candidate is to have a flashy commercial, win an exchange on social media, and raise a bunch more money on any given day. That's what they're doing.

Brian Lehrer: That's right. By the way, just for grins, a listener texted with a suggestion for another format when there are so many candidates. Listener writes, "I think all political debates should be arranged similar to the way the Sweet 16 and Final Four are done in college basketball. Arbitrarily match two people at a time, and whoever does the best in the eyes of the moderators or the audience goes on to meet the next winner until each has had a chance to debate another." I don't think so, but nice try, right?

Errol Louis: I'll tell you, maybe I can enlist you in this, Brian, I already suggested this on television to the head of the Campaign Finance Board. My feeling is if you're taking Campaign Finance Board money, the period in which you take it, you should be required to show up at some kind of public forum or debate, meaning some of these candidates are already getting millions and millions of dollars and they're starting to convert it into advertisement.

It seems to me, if you're taking $1.5 million in the case of Andrew Cuomo, I think that should come with an obligation that in the period in which you accepted that money, you've got to show up somewhere. I'd leave it up to the Campaign Finance Board to define might mean, but it would serve a number of different purposes. First of all, it would give everybody an incentive to get into the program as quickly as possible. Then, secondly, I and we as a public wouldn't feel that we're paying these people to go out and campaign, and to a certain extent, they're refusing to do it. That's certainly not the way the program is supposed to work.

Brian Lehrer: One minute left, Errol One of your recent New York Magazine columns that jumped out at me was the one called Who Will Be Our John Lindsay? Why did you look back to that mayor from the 1960s and 1970s for Lessons for Today?

Errol Louis: It was exactly 60 years ago, and we'd done a multi-part series for my podcast last year about the rise and fall of John Lindsay. It was really striking that the candidate quality, what he did, what he stood for, the bold changes that he inaugurated-- This was somebody who brought us the 911 system, who brought us air conditioning in the subways, who brought us a lot of really big changes. He took 50 agencies and consolidated them down to 10, really streamlined government, created the community board system that's used so that people can have input before land use decisions are made in their neighborhood. These are major, major changes.

I was thinking as I compared this to what we're seeing now where people, they have perfectly good ideas, but they're really small bore. They don't necessarily move the needle. They don't strike me as commensurate with the depth and extent of the problems that the candidates keep telling us our city is facing. You know what I mean? If things are so bad, if things really, really need to change, you need to give us something a little bit more than, I don't know, a free bus pass or something. I'm looking for where are the big ideas and I'm not seeing them. That's what that column was about.

Brian Lehrer: Once again, listeners, we're inviting you to suggest a question that we might ask at the mayoral debate. We have a webpage that's brand new that you can go to and suggest a question. It's wnyc.org/debatequestion. Wnyc.org/debatequestion. Errol Louis who will be asking questions, along with me and Katie Honan from the news organization The City, in the mayoral debate on Thursday night, June 12th. We also have New York 1, The City, WNYC controller debate on Tuesday night, the 10th. You can see Errol's Louis inside City Hall weeknights at 7:00 on New York 1, listen to his podcast You Decide, or read him in New York Magazine. Errol, thanks for coming on and helping to announce our debates.

Errol Louis: Great to be with you. Thanks a whole lot, Brian.

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