[MUSIC]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Happy Friday, everybody. We are re-airing most of the Democratic mayoral primary debate that I co-moderated last night with Errol Louis from New York 1 and Katie Honan from the news organization The City. Again, near the end of the show, we'll open up the phones for you to name something that you've learned in the debate, or if it changed your mind in any way on any issue or any candidate. Again, for those of you just joining, the seven candidates in alphabetical order were Adrienne Adams, Andrew Cuomo, Brad Lander, Zohran Mamdani, Zellnor Myrie, Scott Stringer, and Whitney Tilson.

I see somebody texted a minute ago to ask, why wasn't Eric Adams in the debate? Eric Adams did drop out of the Democratic primary. He will be running in November as an independent in the general election. We pick it up next in the section of the debate known as the cross-examination, in which each of the seven candidates gets to ask one question of one other candidate. It's a one-question, one-response format. After that, you'll hear the following section moderated by Errol, about being mayor of New York in the context of the war in the Middle East. The cross-examination section comes first.

Errol Louis: Welcome back to our Democratic primary debate for mayor, live from John Jay College of Criminal Justice. We're more than halfway through the debate with the seven leading Democratic candidates. Now it is time for the cross-examination round. That's when each candidate gets a chance to ask one question of one rival. Our order was selected at random, and we'll begin with Scott Stringer.

Scott Stringer: Thank you, Errol. My question is for Adrienne Adams. During the City of Yes negotiations, you successfully brought billions of dollars in benefits and opportunity on top of City of Yes. As you know, I've been campaigning because I really do believe we can have a realistic opportunity to take those parcels of land and turn them into affordable housing. Do you envision or would you sort of signal that that idea could be coupled with funding, the funding that you obtain when you start thinking about implementing your own housing agenda, if you were mayor?

Adrienne Adams: Scott, thank you for the question, and thank you for recognizing that I have ushered in billions of dollars for housing for the people of the city of New York. Thank you for that. As mayor, I would be open to any feasible option of housing, expanding it for the people of the city of New York. We got to continue this. My work has just been the floor and not the ceiling. So I'm more than willing to expand on the great work that I'm still doing as City Council speaker.

Errol Louis: Okay, thank you, Mr. Myrie.

Zellnor Myrie: My question is also for Speaker Adams. We have seen over the past two decades 200,000 Black New Yorkers leave this city. We know that this is a top issue for most New Yorkers, the cost of living here. I'm wondering if you can talk to us about ushering through the City of Yes and what implications that has for Black New Yorkers who are struggling to stay in this city, and what we could be building on going forward.

Adrienne Adams: Love the question. Thank you very much, Senator. Again, thank you for referencing the City of Yes, championed by the City Council Speaker Adrienne Adams. Thank you so much. Within the proposal, which the City Council renamed City for All, we've built in financial safeguards for Black families, many of whom I'm sure, as you know also, we've seen leave our city in droves over the past two decades. We want to make sure that our families stay here. That is why we have built in within that $5 billion.

In the proposal, we are protecting homeowners so that homeowners in disrepair can repair their homes. That is built in through the financing. We've also built in repairs for NYCHA families, for Mitchell-Lama residents as well. Rochdale Village is a Mitchell-Lama, the second largest Mitchell-Lama in the city of New York, within my own district. We have built in financial safeguards to protect our Black families, families of color, from leaving New York. This is something. Again, I live in a Black family. I don't want my children to leave, so this is for their protection as well.

Errol Louis: Thank you, Mr. Tilson.

Whitney Tilson: Zohran, you're a proud member of the Democratic Socialists of America. You refer to each other as comrade. Right now, on the DSA's website, it calls for the government ownership of all major industries, to decriminalize all misdemeanors, including theft and assault, to empty our prisons, and to disarm, dismantle, and defund the police. Your words are very reassuring, but this is what I read from your people. I wonder if you will disavow this or implement it as mayor.

[applause]

Zohran Mamdani: Yes. Like David Dinkins, I am a member of the organization. The organization's platform is not the platform of this campaign. The platform of this campaign is the one you can find on the website at zohranfornyc.com. That's a platform that is going to deliver an affordable city for New Yorkers who are currently being priced out of what is instead the most expensive city in the United States. It's one that we're going to deliver public safety to each and every New Yorker.

We're going to do so by recognizing the critical role that police have to play in that and also by creating the Department of Community Safety so that police do not have to do the work of mental health professionals. We can follow the example of the evidence-based policies we've seen be successful elsewhere in the country and start to divert those mental health calls outside of the police department so the police department can focus on the seven major categories of crime.

[applause]

Errol Louis: Okay, next is from Ms. Adams.

Adrienne Adams: Yes, thank you. I was looking for Errol to look up because he's confusing me. Oh, okay. Thank you. I have a question for Assembly Member Mamdani. I know how to pronounce your name.

Zohran Mamdani: Thank you very much, Speaker Adams.

Adrienne Adams: Assembly Member, I've raised a family in New York. I have over 20 years of experience in the private sector. I have led the City Council through many, many challenges, taken this city through three successful budgets, and billions of dollars in city budgets. Now working on our fourth, which will also be successful, and have been continuing this work for a number of years on the City Council. In a recent New York Times article, you said that you were the most qualified person to be mayor of the city of New York. Given what I've just laid out, do you think you're more qualified than me to lead the city?

Zohran Mamdani: I very much appreciate your work and your leadership and your track record, Speaker. I think that each one of us on this stage will say that we are the most qualified to lead the city, because if we didn't believe that, then we would have no business running for mayor. Ultimately, I believe that because I believe the most pressing crisis we're facing here is one of affordability. That is something that my campaign has been laser-focused on. That is why I'm proud to say that we are going to address it by freezing the rent for millions of rent-stabilized tenants, by making the slowest buses in the country fast and free, and by delivering universal childcare to each and every New York family.

Errol Louis: Mr. Lander, your turn.

Brad Lander: Peter, will you please stand up?

Peter Arbini: Andrew, this is Peter Arbini. He's been trying to ask you a question for five years.

[applause]

His father, Norman, died because of your disastrous order sending people with COVID into nursing homes. Then, as you admitted this week, you personally altered the state health department report to undercount the death total, to hide the death total, and then evaded and lied to these families for five years. Tonight, will you finally apologize to Peter and other grieving New Yorkers, or will you just keep gaslighting them with blather about what a great job you claim you did?

Andrew Cuomo: Maybe where you come from in St. Louis, facts don't matter, but here they do. So let's talk about that. First of all, on nursing homes, 1.2 million people died of COVID in the United States. It's horrendous. 83,000 people died in New York State. It is horrendous. It was a pandemic unlike anything we have ever seen. When it comes to nursing homes, we now know the facts because numerous studies have been done.

New York State implemented the federal government guidance set by CMS, CDC, Dr. Fauci. We implemented it. Other states implemented it. That has been proven over and over and over again. When you look at the total death toll in New York, the rate of death in nursing homes, we're number 38 out of 50 states. Only 12 states had a lower rate of death than New York, which is incredible in my opinion, since we had it first and worst, and does not give enough credit to the women and men in those nursing homes who work so hard.

Mr. Arbini lost a father. I am very, very sorry for that. He brought a legal case against the state. The legal case was dismissed. When you look at the papers on the case, there was no COVID-positive person sent from a hospital to the nursing home while Mr. Arbini was in the nursing home. It is factually impossible, Brad, that he got COVID from someone coming from a hospital.

Errol Louis: Okay, Mr. Mamdani.

Zohran Mamdani: I want to address something first, which is that-- [crosstalk]

Errol Louis: You're going to ask a question or not?

Zohran Mamdani: I'm going to ask a question, but Brad Lander is more of a New Yorker than Andrew Cuomo is.

Errol Louis: Who are you going to ask the question to?

Zohran Mamdani: To hear all this about St. Louis, we have to just make this clear. Now all of us on this stage--

Errol Louis: Wait, who are you going to ask your question to?

Zohran Mamdani: I'm asking it to Andrew Cuomo.

Errol Louis: Okay.

Zohran Mamdani: I feel like most people would have known. I'm going to ask Andrew Cuomo a question.

Andrew Cuomo: I knew.

Zohran Mamdani: He knew I knew.

Andrew Cuomo: I knew. I knew, and you knew.

Zohran Mamdani: We did. We both knew.

Andrew Cuomo: We knew. We agree.

Zohran Mamdani: All of us on this stage have spoken about how Donald Trump is an existential threat to democracy, to the city, to this country. Andrew Cuomo, you have received millions of dollars in funding from the very billionaires who put Donald Trump back into office. Will you now look at the camera and tell your super PAC to return those millions of dollars and to your own campaign to return that close to half a million dollars to ensure that this is not a race that is bought by those same Trump billionaires?

[applause]

Andrew Cuomo: I know you don't understand the law, but it would be illegal for me to direct an independent expenditure committee.

Zohran Mamdani: Is it illegal for you to direct your own campaign?

Errol Louis: One question, one answer.

Andrew Cuomo: That's the law. Number two. I dealt with Mr. Trump as governor. We had very, very difficult times. I got more help for New York from Trump than anyone expected. New York was one of the few places that he did not send in troops when he sent them everywhere else, because he didn't want to deal with me. That's the fact. I got him to send us masks during COVID-- [crosstalk]

Zohran Mamdani: Are you going to return the half a million dollars to your own campaign?

Andrew Cuomo: Then on your point about, oh, billionaires, let's remember this. I am the candidate on the stage who is supported by more labor unions than any other candidate. 650,000 working men and women support me.

Zohran Mamdani: Then why is it that JD Vance went to-- [crosstalk]

Andrew Cuomo: Let me finish, because they know me and they know my record. The firefighters worked with me in storms. The utility workers endorsed me because I was in Puerto Rico putting the power back together after the storms. Every major union that has endorsed has endorsed me greater than any candidate on the stage.

Errol Louis: You get the final question, Mr. Cuomo.

Andrew Cuomo: Yes.

Errol Louis: You get the final question to anyone on the stage. Yes.

Andrew Cuomo: My question is to Mr. Tilson. We learned today that, shockingly, Mr. Mamdani is not part of the DSA. We've heard his plans over and over and over. You're a financial man, you're not a politician, Mr. Tilson, probably smarter than the rest of us in that regard, but you've heard his plans for how to build housing, how he's going to finance the housing, free buses, how he's going to build grocery stores. He said he can do all of this, and our taxes will not be any higher than New Jersey's taxes. You're a financial expert. You've heard this 157 times. Is it feasible and financially possible that he is telling the truth?

Whitney Tilson: I would say no [inaudible 00:14:26]

[applause]

The biggest piece of his, he says he will raise the revenue to pay for all the things that I can't even keep track of, all the spending promises he's making by raising the corporate tax rate to New Jersey's level. What he is failing to acknowledge is that there are already many other city and state taxes that in fact, if his plan were implemented, would result in New York City businesses paying double the tax rate of New Jersey, triple that of Connecticut, five times that of Florida, which would lead to an exodus of businesses and jobs and crush our city.

Even more preposterous is that this all has to go through Albany. There is no appetite for what he is calling for. Even if it were to pass the corporate tax rate, tax increase statewide, he's assuming that all the taxes all around the state, the legislature, would just hand it to New York City. That's truly delusional. I want to double taxes in New York City, I want to double spending in New York City, but I want to do it the way Mike Bloomberg did it by doubling the size of the economy, which he did over 12 years. It's economic growth that we need, not destructive policies that would crush growth.

Errol Louis: Okay, thank you. Let's talk about the fact that even before the war between Israel and Hamas, an unofficial but important task of every New York City mayor has been to bring New Yorkers together, even on issues of passionate concern, where finding common ground is difficult. Let's talk for a few minutes about what kind of job you would do in this area. Mr. Mamdani, what is your message to Jewish New Yorkers who are supportive of Israel and fear for their safety in this current political climate?

Zohran Mamdani: That I hear them and that I have heard them over the course of this campaign and before that. After the days of the horrific war crime of October 7th, a friend of mine told me about how he felt sitting in his synagogue for Shabbat services when he heard the door open and a chill went up his spine as he turned around, not knowing who would be there. I heard that even just recently from a Jewish man in Williamsburg who told me how he locks the very door that used to be unlocked for so many years out of a concern for his safety.

I will protect Jewish New Yorkers and deliver them that safety. I will do so as the next mayor of this city. Ultimately, what I will also say is to New Yorkers who have a disagreement with me on any issue, but also on the question of the Israeli government's policies, that that disagreement, I know, is rooted in a shared sense of humanity. In the words of Ed Koch, "If you agree with me on 9 out of 12 issues, vote for me. 12 out of 12, see a psychiatrist."

Errol Louis: Just as a follow-up, Mr. Mamdani. When it comes to the boycott and divestment movement aimed at Israel, which you have supported even before this campaign, what would you say to people who feel that that is an existential threat and that despite your position of wanting to keep people safe, they feel like you actually either have a different agenda or are in league with people who have an agenda that makes them feel fundamentally unsafe?

Zohran Mamdani: I've been very clear and I will continue to be so, which is that at the core of my politics is a belief in nonviolence and that my support for compliance with international law is support for nonviolent movements that seek to do so and build on the example that we saw with South Africa. Ultimately, what my focus will be, however, is not on what is happening outside of this city.

It is going to be on making sure this is a city that is affordable for each and every New Yorker. What is currently the most expensive city in the country finally be one that the working class New Yorkers who built it can afford to live in, and to ensure that each and every New Yorker feels represented by me as their mayor, because you can win an election with a majority, but it is your job to represent every single person across the city.

[applause]

Errol Louis: Mr. Cuomo, according to Muslim American organizations, you never made a public visit to a mosque during your 10-plus years as governor. Why the reluctance?

Andrew Cuomo: Yes, I believe I have. I would have to check the record, but let me correct the record here, if I might. Mr. Mamdani is dangerously-- [crosstalk]

Errol Louis: Oh, wait, wait, wait. Let me ask you about this, because this was an issue in the 2018 campaign when you were running for reelection, when they said that in seven years, you had never visited a mosque. Did something happen in the several years beyond that?

Andrew Cuomo: I believe I have. I know I've participated in many forums with imams. Off the top of my head, I can't tell you where I went, but I'll check the record, and I will.

Errol Louis: Let me just get to the point, then. I mean, what would you say to more than 760,000 Muslim Muslims here in the city about whether or not you would reach out to them, make them feel welcome, make them feel protected at a time when--?

Andrew Cuomo: I would say we are a city of immigrants. I welcome them. I love them. I'm not Mr. Mamdani. I'm not anti-Semitic. I'm not divisive. I didn't say I would boycott Israel. I didn't say I would divest from Israel. I didn't say I would sanction Israel. I don't give forums to anti-Semites. I don't give forums to extremists who blame America for 9/11. I didn't say that I would boycott Cornell Technion because they're pro-Israel. He is the flip side of the coin of Trump. Trump says he'll boycott Cornell because they're anti-Israel. He says I'll boycott Cornell because they're pro-Israel. The vision is our death in this city, this state, in this nation. The vision is what Trump sells. We should be selling unity, not the division that this man is spreading.

Errol Louis: Mr. Mamdani.

Zohran Mamdani: It is ridiculous to hear Mr. Cuomo talk about himself as a man of unity when just yesterday we found out that his Super PAC was sending mail that artificially darkened and lengthened my beard to stoke the very fears of that division in this city. The reason he doesn't have a message for Muslim New Yorkers is because he has nothing to say to us, because he doesn't see us as if we are every other New Yorker.

Ultimately, the campaign that I am running is a campaign that seeks to go beyond the politics of the Trump era, where candidates on the stage describe me as a monster, describe me at the gates, where they say that I am, in fact, the other. This is a campaign to bring people together. It's why we have the support of Jewish and Muslim New Yorkers. It's why we have the support of people across the five boroughs.

Errol Louis: Real quick.

Andrew Cuomo: You don't bring New Yorkers together by saying President Obama is evil and President Obama is a liar. You don't bring them together by saying Hakeem Jeffries is like George Wallace and the DAs sending ads to Hakeem Jeffries with watermelons. Koch didn't say what you said. He said, "Anyone who threatens Israel, I would never support." That's what Koch says, and that's you.

Errol Louis: We're going to bring in the other candidates. I want you to tell me, and we'll do this 60 seconds and keep it a real 60 seconds. What would you do as far as bringing people together around this particular issue, which has brought people into the streets and caused so much controversy in New York?

Adrienne Adams: Errol, all New Yorkers deserve to feel safe, no matter who they are. As City Council speaker, I have allocated millions of dollars to combat anti-Semitism. As mayor, I will fully fund to protect all New Yorkers, something that our current mayor has not done. We're going to fully fund the Commission on Human Rights to make sure that we are taking care of all of the citizens of the city of New York. Right now, that commission is significantly understaffed.

20% of their headcount is lacking. As mayor, I'm going to make sure that that headcount is appropriate and that we are truly looking forward to unifying this city. Anti-Semitism has grown, and it is at its peak in New York City. That is unacceptable. It should be unacceptable to everyone on this stage. It is something that as mayor, we are going to unify this city once and for all, and treating everyone as equals.

[applause]

Errol Louis: Mr. Lander.

Brad Lander: I am a proud Jewish New Yorker, and raising these two beautiful Jewish kids in this city is one of the great joys of my life. It's remarkable what a haven New York City has been, and I am going to fight like hell to keep it that way. You can't have to look over your shoulder every time you go to a Jewish communal event like in D.C. and Boulder. I will keep Jews safe, and I will keep Muslims and everyone else safe. I was at a mosque for Eid last week, up in the Bronx of Ghanaian and Nigerians. Beautifully out in the street.

That's the New York City we want. Many Sundays, I go to Union Square for a vigil with Israelis for peace who are calling for a return of the hostages, for an end to the war in Gaza, a real ceasefire for the famine to be ended by humanitarian aid. I believe passionately in the vision of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state. For that to be real, the occupation of the West Bank in Gaza has to end. Israelis and Palestinians have to find a way to peace and mutual self-determination. That is not the job of the mayor of New York City, but what a mayor can do is set a model for how you bring people together.

Zellnor Myrie: Part of the magic of our city, what makes our city so beautiful, the reason that people come here from all over the world, is that you can be your full self and be able to walk down the street and not feel like you are threatened by violence. You can live out your entire being, pray to who you want to pray to, go to whatever religious setting you want to, and you should have the protection of this city. We have seen over the past few years an unequivocal rise in anti-Semitism. We must deal with that head-on.

We must be unequivocal about how we deal with it. The role of the mayor is to keep everyone safe, and that is what my plan is. I want to restore the funding for the Office to Prevent Hate Crime. I want to ensure that our Commission on Human Rights has all the personnel that it needs to. I want to extend education so that all of our New Yorkers understand the rich Jewish history. We also have to ensure that Muslims feel protected in this city as well, that we have their back as well. That is what makes New York City, New York City. That's the kind of city that I'm going to lead.

[applause]

Errol Louis: Okay, Mr. Stringer.

Scott Stringer: Let me be very clear. I am not confused about what I believe in or who I am. I am a Zionist. I believe in the Jewish state of Israel. I'm against BDS. It's anti-Semitic. My wife works at the Jewish Heritage Museum, which is a living memorial to the Holocaust. When I found, as we all did, the horror of what happened in Washington, the Jewish Museum, I really thought about my wife going to work and coming home. I thought about my Jewish kids, two kids who one just bar mitzvah. I worry about them. As mayor, I'm going to protect the Jewish community.

Here's what a mayor really has to do. We've got to go back to what I used to do when I was comptroller and borough president, when the Muslim community called me and said, "We've had people killed outside our mosque. We need you to be there to support us." I was there. When people were being slurred Muslims because of 9/11, and prejudice was happening all over the city, as one of the highest-ranking Jewish officials, I was there. When we needed to bring halal food into the public school system, I brought the Muslim community and the Jewish community together in the Comptroller's office. It was a UN moment, and we brought the city together. That's what a mayor has to do.

Errol Louis: Okay, Mr. Tilson?

[applause]

Whitney Tilson: I want to be the mayor who ends the chaos, not globalize the Intifada. I'm part of New York's Jewish community through my wife and three daughters. We've been members of Central Synagogue for 25 years. I can tell you, Jewish New Yorkers, don't feel safe. In the audience today are two Columbia University students, both Jewish, David and Maya. They have had their education disrupted, have been harassed, cursed at. David's twin brother, also at Columbia, was punched in the face by one of these mobs.

I hold the people inciting these mobs, the leaders, yes, Zohran Mamdani, partly responsible for this. When you use words accusing the only-- [booing] When you use words referring to the only Jewish state in the world, like genocide and apartheid, when you call for divestment at all, that is inciting these mobs. He says shared sense of humanity and all these nice sounding words, but he has a double standard, because if you search his Twitter feed, 15,000 tweets, Sudan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia don't appear, yet the word Israel appears more than 50 times. The word genocide appears more than 26 times. That tells you where his heart is.

Errol Louis: Okay, briefly.

[applause]

Zohran Mamdani: I am being smeared for echoing the same words as Israeli historians Amos Goldberg and Daniel Blattman. I am being mischaracterized on the stage for echoing the same words of a former Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert, who said recently, "What we are doing in Gaza is a war of devastation. It is indiscriminate, limitless, cruel, and criminal killing of civilians." I say these things because far too often we take what can be a place of disagreement and instead start to broach beyond that. These kinds of characterizations, they are part and parcel of what leads to the dehumanization in our city, which is why an elected official in our own city has called for me to be deported. It cannot be disentangled from what's going on right now.

Errol Louis: Okay, thank you, candidates.

Andrew Cuomo: Thank you.

 

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