Title: NYC Mayoral Primary Debate: Analysis and Your Reactions

Brian Lehrer: Folks, that is most of the Democratic mayoral candidates' debate from last night. Listeners, now we'll get some takes from our political reporters, Elizabeth Kim and Brigid Bergin, and invite your calls and texts for the rest of the hour. Name one thing that stood out to you from the debate, especially if it answered any questions you went in with or if it changed your mind on anything. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text.

Again, name that stood out to you from the debate, especially if it answered any questions you went in with, or if it changed your mind on any issue or any candidate. 212-433-9692. I guess I should say we're not looking so much for your pure lobbying for the main candidate you already supported. We do see some callers like that coming in. We're probably not going to take you in this segment with plenty of undecided folks out there and the ranked choice ballot, where you can vote for up to five.

We're looking more for what I said. Name one thing that stood out to you from the debate, especially if it answered any questions you went in with or if it changed your mind on any candidate or any issue. We think that's the best public service we can perform. It can be about a candidate. It can be about an issue. You can also ask Liz or Brigid a question. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text. Happy morning after, Brigid. Happy morning after, Liz.

Brigid: Good morning, Brian.

Liz: Good morning, Brian.

Brian: That was a lot, a lot of substance and a lot of politics. Brigid, what would you say people were out to do there generally last night?

Brigid: I think I was struck most by what some of the candidates who have not been in the top tier, namely Brad Lander, were trying to do. In the first debate, the line that I remember him repeating so many times was "I have a plan for that." Then last night, it was, as we dubbed it in our Gothamist story, a boulder Brad. He was on the attack. He was very aggressive in going after Andrew Cuomo. There's some breaking news that's been reported by the New York Times about how now Lander and Assemblymember Zohran Mamdani are co-endorsing each other. Both candidates were very aggressive on that stage.

I think everyone was trying to take the front-runner down. The argument that, I think, they are putting forth now is, as we saw in 2021, some of those endorsements came very late. The Andrew Yang, Kathryn Garcia team up. There have been questions lingering about if Maya Wiley and Kathryn Garcia, the top two finishers behind Adams, had come together sooner, could that have changed the outcome? Now they're putting that theory to the test, the two candidates coming behind Andrew Cuomo. Zohran Mandani and City Comptroller Brad Lander are co-endorsing each other, telling their supporters to rank each other 1 and 2. It's all in an effort to block Andrew Cuomo from becoming the Democratic nominee.

Brian: You talk about Brad Lander and how he was trying to come from behind last night and make a stronger impression than he did in the first debate. One of my observations, just broadening this out even a little bit more, was that with Cuomo and Mamdani leading so consistently in the polls, the various middle of the pack candidates, I might call them Lander and Adrienne Adams and Scott Stringer, really tried to bring their best selves, as they see themselves, to try to break through. Lander, as you say, very aggressive toward Cuomo.

Also, for example, when Cuomo and Mamdani were going back and forth on how much experience matters versus how much Cuomo's record should be seen as good experience or bad experience, Scott Stringer said he was in a third lane where he has vision like Mamdani and experience like Cuomo, but good experience. Liz, how did the Adams, Lander, and Stringer part of the field sound to you as a whole?

Liz: I just have to say I thought the breaking news that Brigid was talking about, the New York Times just reporting that Lander and Mamdani are going to cross doors, I feel like that puts the debate in a new light. After watching it, we always knew that Mamdani was going to go after Cuomo. According to polls, he is in second place, and some polls show that he is surging. With Lander, I think me and Brigid were talking about it, and we thought maybe he got some juice from that endorsement he received yesterday from this panel of experts that the New York Times assembled. Not their editorial board, but still something that's associated with a recognized and respected news brand in New York City.

Now, I think in light of the cross endorsement, it very much now feels like they went in with the strategy to team up, and I think it was very successful. You really saw Brad being very tough, and I think this has been the real struggle for Brad Lander. I don't think that many people can accuse him of not knowing enough policy, not understanding the budget, not understanding city bureaucracy. He has the knowledge, he has the depth. He's very wonky.

The problem for him, I think, is that, especially when you compare him to someone like Cuomo, it's been very hard for him to assert himself as a tough guy. I remember I went to watch him box. That's actually something that he does in his spare time. I was kind of jokingly, I said to him, but I was also serious. I was like, "This is a little against type," and he acknowledged that. I thought in many ways, he accomplished two things.

One, he went after Cuomo, the front-runner, but I think by going after Cuomo in that way, I thought he answered another question, which you began the night with, Brian, which was, how would you stand up to Trump? Because in many ways, I think, Cuomo is the strong man of the candidates. I think that by doing that, I really think he might have changed people's perception of him a little bit last night with that debate performance.

Brian: Interesting. Adrienne Adams emphasized her experience running city council and dealing with Mayor Adams. No relation. Like Cuomo, she challenged Mr. Mamdani on whether he is more qualified than she is to be mayor. Speaker Adams is also ranked second by AOC, so she could be a player and potentially a winner in the ranked-choice system. I have at least one text here from a listener who got turned off by Adams going after Mamdani at all. Listener writes, "I decided I won't be ranking Adams anymore." This is a Mamdani supporter, but says, "I won't be ranking Adams anymore. She really turned me off going after other progressives rather than the threat of Cuomo." Liz, I guess that's a risk she took.

Liz: That's interesting. I can understand that a lot of Mamdani supporters will feel that way. I thought, and I heard it again when you just played it now, that she tried to ask the question in a very gentle way, right, Brigid? The way I heard her ask it, it was almost as if she was uncomfortable putting it to him, as if she-- Go ahead, Brigid.

Brigid: I think he took the question and pivoted in the best way he could.

Liz: He complimented her.

Brigid: Exactly. Which was to say that everything that you bring to the table, your leadership in your work and in your life, is something I value. The reason we are all on this stage together is because we believe we are the most qualified. I want to support any candidate who is focused on the affordability crisis here in the city. He took that question, and I thought made the most of being able to respond to it without being-

Liz: Putting her down.

Brigid: -under attack. Exactly.

Brian: Let's take a phone call. Jamie in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jamie.

Jamie: Hi, Brian. Something that I was really disturbed by was that Cuomo didn't direct his question to Mamdani directly. Instead, he went through Tilson, another white man, to attack Mamdani. That, paired with Cuomo consistently mispronouncing Mamdani's name, was very problematic.

Brian: Thank you very much. Let's take both of those things. Liz, on Cuomo--

Liz: There's lots of echoes of Trump there with Kamala Harris's name. I'm sure a lot--

Brian: I was thinking of that too, and wondering whether it was on purpose or not. I think Cuomo tried to correct it later in the debate and had trouble, when he says, I think, Mamdami instead of Mamdani, I think is the way he has mispronounced it. I pointed that out on the show before. Last night was not the first time that he did it. He did it in the debate last week. I drew attention to it. Certainly, we know with Trump, when he would say Kamala mala mala, that it was taunting. It was racist taunting.

I don't know whether it was intentional with Cuomo, but he certainly failed to correct it. It couldn't have been the first time that anybody pointed it out to him last night, I would think. Then it was to the caller's other point, certainly Cuomo's strategy in the cross-examination section, instead of criticizing Mamdani directly, to ask Whitney Tilson, who is another Mamdani critic, what he thought of Mamdani, and do it as a bank shot to get somebody else piling on. Any thoughts?

Liz: I think that's exactly right, Brian. I guess the question I have with that strategy, though, is Tilson's not really polling anywhere. Does he even have any sway with the broader audience for this debate? Sure. Cuomo did not have many friends on that stage, and the only one he had was Whitney Tilson.

Brian: Also, I think we have responsibility to point this out. It wasn't only that he mispronounced Mamdani's name incorrectly. He couldn't say if he ever once visited a mosque when he was a governor. He basically said he couldn't remember if he ever visited a mosque. He also referred to Muslims as a group, as immigrants. Did you catch that? Which is so wrong to do.

In that section about Jews and Muslims in New York City, he said something about being sympathetic to all immigrants. Should we even have to say that there are millions of multi generation Americans who are Muslim or people who were born here and converted to Islam? I'm just curious how you're reporting on Cuomo in that debate, coming in as front-runner. He had some real embarrassing moments. Brigid?

Liz: I'm going to let Brigid jump in.

Brigid: I will say I think I agree with you, Brian. I think it was striking in comparison to the first debate when there were no major Cuomo gaffes. He was under a lot of fire there as well. There were multiple moments we've talked about some of them that I think the record scratch would probably catch your ears, "He said what?" I talked to a source after the debate who said, in terms of the pronunciation of people's names, that from this person's perspective, this was a historical trend for the former governor and that it was something that he's done in the past. It was something that is essentially a power move.

The gaffes that you mentioned weren't even the only ones that happened. The one that struck me the most, and again, goes back to the way that Brad Lander emerged in the debate, was in the conversation about how he would respond to the Trump administration. Lander talked about going to immigration court and escorting people out to make sure that they were reunited with their families. Then pivoted, made this just really sharp turn to an attack on Cuomo and how, in his words, screwed over immigrant New Yorkers.

Then talked about how the MTA had hired a company to clean subways during the pandemic, and that those immigrant workers were not paid a prevailing wage. In response to that, while trying to deflect this charge, Cuomo used the term "illegal immigrant" or "undocumented immigrant." Lander said, "Excuse me, what?" And really honed in on that. It was a striking moment.

Liz: Do you remember Biden did that as well during his State of the Union? He said "illegals," and there was a lot of chatter about that. Was that intentional? Was that a gaffe? What I really wanted to highlight, Brian, and my favorite part of the debate, was actually that question to Cuomo about when was the last time you visited a mosque? Because there have been a lot of questions put to especially Mamdani on how would you protect Jewish New Yorkers in this moment? What is the strength of your relationship with Jewish New Yorkers?

A lot of this is rightfully so because it's in the context of the war. It's in the context of an alarming rise in antisemitism across the country.

This question now advanced the discussion with the understanding that Errol pointed out, there are nearly a million Muslims in this city, and Jews have been affected by the war. Muslims have been affected by the war. In many ways, this is a shared grief in both of these communities. That got not just Cuomo to talk about it, it got Scott Stringer to talk about it and what he did to console Muslim New Yorkers after 9/11. I thought that was a great moment because now we're not just focused on this one community. We're talking about this whole breadth of communities in New York City, and this idea that the mayor needs to be a unifying figure. How will you do that?

Brian: Listener text, "I went in supporting Mamdani and Adrienne Adams, but came out also being impressed by Lander, who I will now also rank." Another listener, critic of Mamdani, writes, "Mamdani did come across as sophomoric. He seems well-intentioned, but would be in way over his head." Let's take one pro-Cuomo and one anti-Cuomo. Soleimani in the Bronx, you're on WNYC, identifying as a city worker. Hello, Soleimani. You're on WNYC. Hello.

Soleimani: Hello. Good morning. How you doing?

Brian: Doing all right. What you got?

Soleimani: That's good. I got a Cuomo because Cuomo have a little bit of experience. Cuomo has been there before, and Trump know Cuomo very well. I would say Mamdani is good, but New York needs somebody who have experience. That's why I choose Cuomo.

Brian: That's where you're coming from. Soleimani, thank you very much. Versus Justin in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hello, Justin.

Justin: Hey, Brian. Thanks so much for having me.

Brian: Go ahead.

Justin: In terms of experience, the only thing that Andrew Cuomo has experience in is failing New Yorkers and dismantling core aspects of the city. He defunded the MTA by millions. He has 13 credible accusations of sexual harassment. He has just generally been responsible for so much failure around the city, whether it's COVID, whether it's transportation, whether it's defunding Medicaid. This is not someone who we need in City Hall. This is someone who should be retired from politics.

Brian: Justin, I want to move you to another aspect because obviously you've got established opinions about Cuomo, but I think you called to say something that you were reacting to from last night. Would you go to that?

Justin: Sure. Absolutely. Obviously, again, I think his record speaks for itself. In terms of last night, I was pretty shocked in terms of how massively he was unable to meet the moment and fail. Lander and Zohran, Zellnor as well, were lobbying attacks at him, and he just didn't really have anything to say. On top of that, he didn't even show up at the spin room afterwards. How is he going to handle being mayor if he can't even talk with the press after the debate? I was pretty shocked by his inability to [crosstalk]

Brian: Justin, thank you very much. All right. Somehow, Justin knows what happened or didn't happen in the spin room. Liz and Brigid, were either of you there? I did not go to the spin room after the debate.

Brigid: I was not. I was at New York 1. I think perhaps, like Justin, I was on social media and saw tweets of other reporters who were in the spin room. The reports from people like Jeff Coltin at Politico were that Cuomo did not come to the spin room, unlike the other candidates. Several of his campaign strategists were there, but he did not field any additional questions from reporters. That's been the posture throughout the campaign. He has not made himself particularly well available. He's had very selective-- I think Q & A's have come so few and far between. It's hard to even think of the number of them. After two hours on the debate stage last night, I think he was not interested in taking any more questions.

Brian: We pointed out here that, and this doesn't mean he'd be the worst mayor. It doesn't mean he wouldn't be the best mayor. That's up to people to decide for themselves. We invited all of those people who were on the stage last night on the show for interviews and to take listener calls, and everybody except Cuomo accepted over the last few months. Liz, maybe we should explain to people what the spin room is, if they don't know. After a debate, there's something that has gotten the name spin room where reporters gather and the candidates and their staffs can go and spin how well they thought they did in the debate, and Cuomo passed on that opportunity. Were you there by any chance?

Liz: No, I was actually in our newsroom in Varick. Me and Brigid were writing up our takeaways for Gothamist. In the spin room, it doesn't just exist in a room. The spinning begins almost immediately or even during the debate where you're getting texts and messages and emails from the supporters from the campaigns, highlighting certain dunks that they felt that their candidate successfully did, or maybe highlighting some inaccuracies from the opposition. That's always happening during and after the debate and even into the next day.

Brian: For those of you who thought a spin room is something you might find in your gym, there is what it is in the context of debates. We'll continue with Brigid and Liz and you right after this.

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Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. After replaying most of the Democratic mayoral primary debate that I co-moderated last night at John Jay College with Errol Louis from New York 1 and Katie Honan from the news organization, THE CITY, quick reminder that on Monday we're going to replay one of the sections that we did not replay today, the specifically housing-oriented section. That's such a central issue to New Yorkers that we're breaking that out separately, and we're going to analyze their positions with our great housing reporter, David Brand. That's coming up on Monday's show. Right now, we have our political reporters, Liz Kim and Brigid Bergin. We have Debbie in Astoria. Debbie, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Debbie: Thank you very much, and thank you for this. It really clarified a lot of things for me. I was leaning toward Adrienne Adams, and actually, this solidified it for me. Part of it was her steady professionalism. With all due respect, the men all just started sounding the same to me after a while with insults thrown back and forth. Adrienne Adams, she was very focused on her responses, very direct, very professional, and I think Trump would be intimidated by her. I think Trump is intimidated by strong women, and I think it's time to have a strong woman as mayor of this city. The debate solidified that for me.

Brian: Debbie, thank you very much. I'm curious, who would you be ranking second if you figured that out?

Debbie: One of the men.

Brian: [laughs] Okay, that's six or seven or eight choices.

Liz: [laughs]

Brian: Debbie, thank you very much. We only have a few minutes left. Brigid, early in-person voting starts tomorrow, so it is a time for choosing. You are our ranked-choice voting expert and advisor. You've been talking about the news that broke even while we were re-airing parts of the debate that Lander and Mamdani have decided to cross-endorse each other. I asked last night in the lightning round if anybody would name who they're ranking second, and nobody except Tilson did. He said he's ranking Cuomo second. Regardless of our listeners' preferences, how do you advise that they navigate ranked choice voting where they can list up to five in order of their preference?

Brigid: Brian, my advice, I keep it very straight and very simple, which is pick the candidate who you want to see as mayor as your number one. Go with whoever that is. Even if you don't think that that person is the strongest in the polls, the whole point of ranked choice voting is it should allow you to vote your values and pick the candidate that you think reflects who you think should run City Hall. From there, then you need to think about how to fill out the rest of it, how to rank the 2 through 5. Your ballot will go farther if you do fill it out.

Then you need to think about, is there anyone who you absolutely do not want to see in City Hall? If there is someone who you don't want to see as mayor, do not put them on your ballot. That is the easiest way to approach ranked choice voting. Pick the candidates that you would be able to support, and you can do it, as they say, in order of preference. If there is someone who you can't stand, don't put their name down.

Brian: Is there ever a case where people wouldn't just want to name their favorites in order that they like them? It does make it simpler when you say, "Yes, just name your favorites," but there is this cross-endorsement going on. There are some people who have asked me in the past, "Why shouldn't I just list the one candidate who I really want and leave it at that?" What would you say to those folks?

Brigid: To the person who only wants to rank one candidate, I can say that the risk you run is if your candidate is eliminated in an early round, then your ballot is what's called exhausted. As the ranked choice tallies continue, you will not be a part of the final number of votes for the final candidates. If you want your ballot to go further, they say in the tallies, then fill out all five slots. There is an argument that if you have a strategy beyond electing one particular candidate, if you are trying to perhaps block a candidate, that maybe you do think about how to make sure that the people who are performing better are higher on your ballot because they are likely to be in the tabulations longer.

I think that there's a risk to overthinking that. I think the easiest way to approach it is to think, who do I want? Who do I not? Then to make your choices in that way. Again, you can take into account that some of these co-endorsements, the Working Families Party put out an entire slate. Certain unions have endorsed slates of candidates. If those are the candidates you support, then figuring out where they should appear on your ballot makes a difference.

Brian: I'm going to say one more thing about something we didn't have in the debate. Many of you know that I'm really interested in and committed to, on this show, public health and climate issues. I had a whole public health and climate section of the debate ready to go, but I told you going in that it was going to be hard to get to everything important, given how many candidates and how many big issues. That did fall off last night with the length that some of these other sections that we felt we needed to go in order to not be surface.

I am promising you a health and climate comparison of the candidates for next week, probably on Tuesday, our health and climate section of the show, which we usually do on Tuesdays. That's just one behind-the-scenes thing. Broke my heart a little bit that we couldn't get to that. I do think we had to do what we did last night, but we will get to that next week. Liz and Brigid, thanks always for your reporting. We'll obviously be talking again as early voting begins tomorrow.

Brigid: You're welcome, Brian. A note for new voters. Tomorrow's the deadline to register to vote only for new voters.

Liz: Thanks, Brian.

Brian: That's the Brian Lehrer Show for today, produced by Mary Croke, Lisa Allison, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Esperanza Rosenbaum. Zach Gottehrer-Cohen produces our daily politics podcast. That was Shayna Sengstock at the audio controls today. Have a great weekend, everyone, and stay tuned for All Of It.

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