Title: NYC Deals With Egg-flation

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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Let's talk about the price of eggs. Not so much that bringing down the price of eggs was the main reason swing voters went for Donald Trump, and it's not happening, rather why the price of eggs in our area seems so crazily variable and the availability seems so crazily variable, and how to find eggs and how to find deals on eggs. Some people are even buying eggs like some people buy cigarettes, loosies, one egg at a time, not a dozen or half a dozen in a carton.

There's one story we're going to talk about where even breaking a carton in half so you get six, which I thought was really common, was controversial at least one place. With us for this is Dionne Searcey, New York Times reporter who writes about how power and money shape New York for better or worse. Her article published yesterday is called For Savvy New Yorkers, It's All About Cheap Eggs and Where to Find Them. Thanks for coming on, Dionne. Welcome to WNYC.

Dionne Searcey: Thank you for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, tell us your stories. What have you done recently to find affordable eggs or to find any eggs? Anyone buying or selling loosies want to call in? Anyone thinking of this in terms of power and privilege, which is kind of Dionne's beat? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text. Your article opens with one Brooklyn neighbor asking another if they have any extra eggs. What was the context of that exchange?

Dionne Searcey: Well, I started thinking about the price of eggs really back in the summer when it became part of the presidential campaign. I was helping out our politics desk talking about that. Then when bird flu started, really hitting other farms and the price of eggs went even higher, I guess I just started thinking about who's going to have all the power, really, especially in the big city of New York where we don't have access to farms. I started thinking, these backyard chicken coops, these guys are the ones that are going to have really the power. Like, can you imagine? I guess I was having a little bit of a thought experiment, eggs is the new currency or something like that.

I started calling up people. It's mostly in New York a lot of community gardens that have chicken coops, and talking to them and wondering, "Are eggs in demand right now?" Guess what? They were.

Brian Lehrer: People are keeping chickens that lay eggs in community gardens in New York City, because some of our listeners will even find that a surprise.

Dionne Searcey: Yes. I mean, I actually didn't quite realize that some of the community gardens have chickens. It makes sense, I guess, because it's just part of what they do, get food from the land, and it's sort of very much part of the ethos, and the coops aren't really usually very prominent. They're kind of in the corner. The woman who I talked to in Bed-Stuy, her coop was really brightly decorated, and the hens she said were a bit of-- almost local celebrities. They have names, Agnes and Charlene and Dolores, and kids come in and pet them, but because of bird flu, they'd been keeping them inside the coop so that they don't interact with wild animals and have a chance of catching the flu.

Brian Lehrer: Jeez. Do you happen to know, this may be outside the scope of your reporting, but whether there's any mechanism for testing Brooklyn community garden chickens for bird flu like there are on professional farms?

Dionne Searcey: That's definitely outside the scope of my knowledge base, but I think if the chickens get sick, they would know. These chickens, the hens, are almost like pets and very beloved by the volunteers who come in. This time of year, they make sure that their water hasn't frozen. One community garden I visited in Crown Heights, the water was all frozen. They had to go get hot water to keep the chickens hydrated, to keep them healthy, and to keep them laying.

Brian Lehrer: For the vegans among us or anybody else who hasn't been shopping for eggs, what's been happening to the price of eggs around here?

Dionne Searcey: It's absolutely chaotic. It differs from block to block, from street to street. Two grocery stores across the street from each other will have wildly different prices. Even within one grocery store, the price of brown eggs will be more than jumbo eggs or whatever. It's just almost madness, really. You can definitely still find eggs for cheap. Not really normal prices, I guess, not like three- or four- or five-year-ago prices, but you can find eggs for maybe $7 or $8 in the city right now. One woman told my reporting partner, Ashley Southall, and I that she had found eggs for $18.99 for a dozen in Washington Heights, which seems outrageous to me, but maybe they were special. I don't know.

Brian Lehrer: Wow. Maybe we already implied this, but we should just say it. This is from an actual shortage because farms are having to kill a lot of chickens because of bird flu, right?

Dionne Searcey: That's exactly right. The culling of chickens has meant that, eggs, there's a shortage, and so prices that were already high are really going higher. I think really, in New York City, it just depends on who your supplier is, your contracts for vendors, and that kind of thing. Yes, it's become so expensive for many shoppers, that there are a handful of bodegas or delis that are selling loosies, which is normally a term that you use for cigarettes, when they sell cigarettes under the counter, I think that practice is illegal. They'll sell single cigarette. Now loosie eggs are on the rise.

Brian Lehrer: All right, listeners, who has a loosie egg story or any other story about trying to find affordable eggs or trying to find any eggs or a question for our guest, Dionne Searcey, New York Times reporter who writes about how power and money shape New York for better or worse, and that now applies to just buying eggs for breakfast. Eddie in Coney Island, you're on WNYC. Hi, Eddie.

Eddie: Hey, Brian. A friend of mine has about 20 chickens upstate along the Pennsylvania- New York border. The only eggs I've had in the past couple of months has been from him either visiting or me going up there one time last week and having delicious, freshly laid eggs. They're good, and I like them even when the egg prices are normal, but I certainly haven't bought any in a long time. They're just pretty expensive here in Coney Island. I have seen eggs here for, I think it was $14 in the store across the street. That's the most expensive I've seen.

Brian Lehrer: Unbelievable, $14 eggs in Coney Island, but a lot of people around the city and around the area are nodding their heads. Probably, going, "Yes," $14, maybe $12, $11.99. It's around there in so many places.

Dionne Searcey: Yes, I think people are probably also jealous that you have a hookup, right? I think a lot of people are looking for that, a friend upstate, maybe they'll be visiting more and more.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, that's just what I was going to say because that's kind of the overarching point of your article, right? You tell a number of vignettes of people who have some kind of connection, and that's what it's come to. You got to have a connection in order to get eggs or affordable eggs.

Dionne Searcey: Yes, that's right. I think that a lot of people who are maybe on their trip upstate, they'll stop by a place that sells eggs in the driveway more than they would just whiz on past in the past. I think that everyone is sort of keeping their eye out. It's not dire by any means, but it's just something people are starting to think about. I'd been thinking about writing about eggs for a few weeks and was kind of waiting for the time like how bad is it going to get? It just seemed like the-- It's not grim or anything, you can still definitely find eggs somewhere but you might have to get to your store early, and there's just a little bit of mayhem out there in egg shopping right now.

Brian Lehrer: Used to be, "Do you know anybody who has a connection for a rent-stabilized apartment?"

Dionne Searcey: [laughs] Right.

Brian Lehrer: Now it's, "Do you know anybody who can get me a half a dozen extra-large brown?" Dominic in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Dominic.

Dominic: Hi, Brian. I don't know if it's such a news, but I received an invitation to join a farm upstate, and they are delivering every week for just under $8 a dozen of eggs, fresh eggs, raised in the pastures, all organic. I signed up for also my yogurt, and they have all vegetables for all seasons. I think now every week I'm going to get my eggs for under $8, and I cannot deal with any of this merry-go-round of Whole Foods, Trader Joe's with a big sign "There's no eggs" for five weeks now. This is my news. I don't know if it's a breaking news, but that makes me-- Just feel really good [crosstalk]--

Brian Lehrer: That's good. When you say join a farm, Dominic, is that like a CSA, like members of your neighborhood are getting stuff from a particular farm upstate or something like that?

Dominic: It's one big farm upstate. They make delivery twice a week in New York, in my neighborhood at least. Every week I get my eggs now and my yogurt, and that's it for now, but I want to see how it works out. 12 eggs a week, it's perfect for family of two, and a little jar of yogurt, which is perfect, because I realized how eggs is so important in our life. I never realized-- I was thinking, I went, well, I thought I was listening to my grandparents and my parents where they were talking about the war and they were in the country of France and chasing the eggs and the rabbits and the bunnies.

I said, "That's unbelievable. A country like America, we [unintelligible 00:11:02]," and the eggs, we don't know anything about. I go to restaurants, and I don't even order an omelet or eggs because they're starting to buy from anywhere they can. I don't want to have an egg where the chicken is raised in a little box and never sees the grass. I mean, that's at least I know, and it's good. It's a family. I'm giving $15 a week. I'm very happy. It's a small contribution, but it's a serious, serious peace of mind,-

Brian Lehrer: Dominic, thank you so much.

Dominic: -that's all.

Brian Lehrer: That's all. That's enough. Call us again. That was great. Dionne, it really kind of suggests a larger point, which is that we take so much for granted in our lives as consumers in this country, right?

Dionne Searcey: Right. I think that's right. I think the other thing that it suggests is that right now at least where we're at in this bird flu situation, smaller farms and backyard chickens, going to have cheaper eggs. I mean, those places are just producing less because they can control their flocks. They don't have, you know, one bird gets sick and they have to kill a million birds or whatever. That is really one reason these guys are feeling kind of smug, I think, right now.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Here's another CSA story, I think, from Jay in Bay Ridge. You're on WNYC. Hi, Jay.

Jay: Yes. Hi, Brian. I've signed up for the Hearty Roots CSA for the past few years. They're an upstate farm, and I have an eggshare, and it's a lovely farm. Pasture raised actually. We've even stayed at the farmhouse there, and yes, we decided to renew when Trump was elected. It was a great decision. I just encourage everyone [crosstalk]--

Brian Lehrer: What did you think the Trump effect-- I mean, of course, community-supported agriculture is a righteous thing in general. What did you think, something in particular would change under Trump?

Jay: Yes, we were very worried about inflation, especially for food. We were just thinking about-- Funny story, I asked AI about what would be coming, and it suggested a lot of inflation, so we decided to book our share immediately. It was a great decision.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Dionne, I guess it's not in your beat to get into the politics of Trump being elected in part on the belief that he was going to be the one to bring down the price of eggs more than Kamala Harris, and that's the last thing that's been happening.

He got in, and one of the first things he said when he was asked about it was, "Well, it's not that easy to bring down prices after they've gone up" after he said on the campaign trail, various versions, of, "Prices are going to come down, and they're going to come down quickly," but that's not really your story, right? But I wonder if when you're talking to individuals who are out looking for eggs and buying loosies and hiding eggs behind the counter of their grocery stores for their favorite customers, whether that's come up at all in conversation?

Dionne Searcey: Sure. A little bit, people grumbling about the Trump administration not bringing down the price of eggs. What I think is amazing is how-- We're kind of used to a perennial issue in any political campaign, statewide or national, being the price of gas, and how the price of eggs has become this crazy inflection point for everybody to rally over or rage over, I guess. Across America, I just could never have predicted that.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a text from a listener, says from Chris, in Cornwall-on-Hudson, "I live in a small town in the Mid-Hudson Valley. About 10 years ago, I started buying eggs for my local insurance broker who keeps chickens. My neighbors would say to me, 'You pay $5 a dozen?' And now they're saying to me, 'you're paying $5 a dozen?'"

Dionne Searcey: Right. That's funny. I was just thinking today how we could never have--, with price fluctuations and differences in every product, whether you buy it organically or wholesale or Costco or order from a farm or whatever, you can never have prices right in this day and age, really. Because who knows what the price of anything is anymore.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and if he's buying eggs from his insurance broker, I'm surprised they're not raising the copay.

Dionne Searcey: [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: Tricia in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Tricia.

Tricia: Hello, everyone. I'm just thinking this is one of those opportunities for us to sort of rethink things that makes everything better for all of us. We're a mostly vegan household, so our eggs-- My husband does use eggs, and I do occasionally. We both work in food, so I'm exposed to it, but the price of certified free-range eggs has stayed about the same. I'm thinking back of World War II egg replacers. We can use flaxseed, we can use applesauce. It's better for our health, and we can really cherish the eggs that we do use, and this is one of those [unintelligible 00:16:23] producer. I'm looking at a Fresh-Air Poultry Houses book that I have. It's a classic guide to open-air coops for healthier poultry.

We've known for years that industrial agriculture is not best for the animals, it's not best for us, and we're seeing the effects of it. I just think this is an opportunity for us to say thanks to the chickens and eat healthier and just celebrate life because Easter is coming. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Absolutely. Thank you, Tricia. Thank you for putting it so well, and it goes back, Dionne, I think, to what we were talking about a little bit before about how consumers in this country take so much for granted. There's been some focus over the years on the treatment of chickens and other animals and factory farms. I mean, this is if people aren't going to be vegetarian or vegan altogether, if we're even going to eat animal products at all. Attention to how those animals are treated, but also how the workers are treated. The same thing goes for our clothes, right?

We could be having the same-- Of course, it's not the same kind of shortage because bird flu isn't infecting clothing manufacturers, but these are the things that Americans so take for granted in our lives that we focused on in other ways on this show at other times in terms of what really goes into that cheap T-shirt that you bought or now that carton of eggs that you never gave a second thought to, but here we are.

Dionne Searcey: Exactly. I think the supply chain and sustainability and all those things, I think that's why the price of eggs really resonated with people, because it sort of wraps up all these big, giant, even global issues that America is grappling with right now.

Brian Lehrer: Another line from your article, "Signs of this dynamic were evident on a recent day at one Manhattan grocery store where a worker passed the empty egg shelves, reached into her smock, and handed a favorite customer a full carton." There's something it seems like you've kind of smoked out, grocery stores hiding the eggs for their favorite customers.

Dionne Searcey: That's where the real power is going to be in New York City, right?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and what was that story in your article about somebody being upset that somebody broke a carton in half? I thought that was common to get a half a dozen eggs. People do that.

Dionne Searcey: I think it's common in some places, for sure. I remember doing that when I was a little girl, even going with my mom to grocery stores, but I think right now, there are a lot of stores that are charging more for a half dozen than for a dozen, and that's kind of how the story of loosies evolves. At a deli, I went to Pamela's Green Grocery in the Bronx, where the owner was-- Or the manager, rather, was saying that people were coming in, complaining about the price of a dozen, complaining about even breaking it in half, how much it costs, and so he decided he was just going to sell a few. I think that's pretty common all over the world.

When you can't afford to buy in bulk, people will help out their neighbors and charge less. That was really what he was trying to do, is offer somebody the opportunity to buy a couple eggs for less.

Brian Lehrer: Listener texts, "Green markets have eggs at regular prices." Did you check out any of those? Those are, of course, roughly direct farm to consumer.

Dionne Searcey: I didn't check out any of those. I'm not quite sure where those are even really in the city. Direct farm-- I did talk to a guy who runs a--

Brian Lehrer: Green markets, I guess that's-- Like, in my neighborhood in Upper Manhattan, there's a green market on a particular street every Saturday. You know, those--

Dionne Searcey: Oh, I'm sorry, like a farmers' market, you mean?

Brian Lehrer: That's what I was assuming. Oh, maybe it's different, but I was assuming that meant farmers' market.

Dionne Searcey: No, actually I didn't, but I think that would fall again into the category of smaller producers, smaller farms, and how those-- Those guys have really been able to hold their prices pretty steady and pretty reasonable in comparison to the other larger suppliers.

Brian Lehrer: Our curious listeners are bringing up things that neither of us have thought about, and you probably can't answer, but here's one. Have the prices of Egg McMuffins gone up proportionately to grocery store eggs, or are those not made with real eggs? There's the implication there of busting McDonald's.

Dionne Searcey: Yes. I don't know about the price of Egg McMuffins, but I do know the price of a staple New York item, the egg sandwich, has gone up about a dollar in food trucks and bodegas across the city.

Brian Lehrer: The egg and cheese breakfast sandwich, right?

Dionne Searcey: Exactly. Exactly.

Brian Lehrer: Somebody could do a census of those. How many of those have gotten sold on a typical morning over the last 20 years, and how many are being sold in the last few weeks. Another listener writes, "Why no discussion of pigeon eggs?" Local homing pigeon clubs usually have in abundance. That's interesting. I don't know. Pigeon eggs, it's like people go, "Ooh, pigeon eggs. Dirty city creatures."

Dionne Searcey: Yes. I've never-- Yes, that sounds interesting. Maybe it will come to that.

Brian Lehrer: Let's see. I think we're going to run out of time on this soon, but we're getting so many stories. Let's take one or two more. Anyway, how about Andy in Manhattan, who may have an expert take on this. Andy, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Andy: Hi. Big fan. Long-time caller. Long-time listener.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

Andy: I'm a veterinarian. I'm accredited by USDA, and the division of USDA is called APHIS, Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service, and that is managed by a division of USDA that just got decimated by Elon Musk's job cuts. There was barely enough-- There really weren't even enough before this. They are the ones who monitor bird flu and would then take action if there's an infection and depopulate flocks and stuff. Besides all the other things you're saying, just thinking that this problem potentially could get a lot worse before it gets better.

Brian Lehrer: I'm glad you called in with that and brought it to that level. With your expertise, do you have a take on where this bird flu epidemic is headed? I know some of the health sites that I read are more alarmed than others in terms of the potential spread to humans of bird flu itself.

Andy: Well, bird flu spread to humans is a whole different issue, topic for another day. Certainly not my expertise. APHIS would just be concerned with birds and food supply, so eggs and poultry meat. That's really all I can speculate on. That's, I say, not getting better right now. They're thinking about releasing a vaccine for chickens, not for humans, but it probably is not cost-effective for chicken farmers or egg-laying hen farmers to use. Yes, right now there is no solution in sight, and there's more infections every day and more bird flocks depopulated every day. Like I say, it's still on the down-- in terms of the price of eggs or the availability of eggs. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Well, then maybe you as a USDA veterinarian can answer this listener's question that came in in a text, listener writes, "What about the whole chicken price or wings, nuggets, not just the eggs." I think I heard--

Andy: Oh, yes, that meat--

Brian Lehrer: Well, you tell me. I'll just ask you the question and not tell you what I heard. Are chickens that are raised for meat as opposed to for eggs, because I think they're different, susceptible to bird flu and shortages in the same way?

Andy: Oh, yes, absolutely. First of all, I won't go into it, but I am a USDA-accredited veterinarian, but I do not work directly for the USDA. I am employed by them. I can't explain it, but as far as this thing, bird flu affects all birds, certainly wild birds, but domestic chickens, so absolutely. People should probably understand that an egg farmer raises hens to lay eggs. They typically do not raise prior, the ones that are going to become edible chicken meat, but they're certainly related. Literally, some of the eggs, go to a laying-hen facility, some go to a meat facility.

They get it just the same, and I think your expert noted they don't really go looking detecting bird flu much because birds, chickens anyway, die within a day, so you don't need to go around testing, saying, "Oh, could they get sick later on." What happens right now, as soon as you get one bird, it's just the dynamics of commercial industrial chicken production, you get one sick bird, you depopulate, which is a nice way of saying kill every one of them.

You depopulate them immediately, and that is absolutely happening to meat, meat-raising birds right now, so I'm kind of surprised the price of chicken meat hasn't already gone up, but again, it's totally my guess. I'm not an expert. I certainly would expect the price of chicken meat to go up pretty quickly.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much for your call. We really appreciate you lending your expertise to this. Dionne, we'll close with, again, our listeners are amazing. The one raised the question about why aren't we using more pigeon eggs? And now somebody texted to answer the question. According to this person, the answer is, "Pigeons don't lay frequently enough. Domestic chickens, chickens, were bred to lay every day."

Dionne Searcey: Interesting. I do have one tip I could offer, is a chef friend told me that you can freeze eggs if you separate the yolk from the egg white, so stock up.

Brian Lehrer: You mean crack the egg, don't cook it, but separate the yolk from the white and then freeze it?

Dionne Searcey: Yes, according to a chef friend, yes.

Brian Lehrer: Says Dionne Searcey, the New York Times reporter who writes about how power and money shape New York for better or worse, which is now extended to the price, availability, and how to freeze eggs. Thank you so much for joining us.

Dionne Searcey: Thanks a lot.

 

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