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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. It was debate night in New Jersey last night. The three leading Republicans competing in the gubernatorial primary squared off on WNYC and NJ Spotlight News on TV. Housing, property taxes, education, Newark Airport, how MAGA to be, and whether that comes with enough heart or empathy were all topics that were in play. Some other ones, too. We'll play some excerpts now. Invite a few phone calls with your reactions to these clips or to the full debate, if you watched or listened, especially if you're a New Jersey Voter at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text.

We have both of the moderators from last night, David Cruz from NJ Spotlight News and WNYC's Michael Hill, who somehow got up early for his Morning Edition shift anyway, after working the debate last night. David, it's always good to have you join us, and Michael, staying for an extension of your workday, even more than the morning shift, to come on with us. Good morning, both.

Michael Hill: Good morning, Brian.

David Cruz: Good morning.

Brian Lehrer: We'll focus mostly on affordable housing and begin with this excerpt from the most MAGA candidate, former talk show host Bill Spadea. He refers here to the Mount Laurel court decision, which has mandated a certain amount of affordable housing in the state for decades, but there's a big shortage anyway.

Bill Spadea: Affordable housing under the Mount Laurel decisions is a complete and unmitigated disaster. The way we're going to end it, I'm going to stop [unintelligible 00:01:46].

Michael Hill: What do you do to get to affordable housing?

Bill Spadea: We've already written five executive orders that we'll implement on day one to reclassify what an affordable housing unit is. Then we're going to go back to something that happened under Chris Christie, but we're going to do it in a much better way and more efficient way. We're going to take those units out of the suburbs and shove them into the cities. Once you do that, the only way to create actual affordable housing is you've got to create new jobs. You've got to bring in. We need tax credits and tax reductions for small businesses to start up an entrepreneur credit, get them access to capital.

Brian Lehrer: Take units out of the suburbs and shove them into the cities is my takeaway excerpt from that excerpt. That's Bill Spadea. Here's Jack Ciattarelli, who's leading Spadea in multiple polls, just by way of political context, as of now by around 30 points. They're numbers one and two candidates in multiple polls. Ciattarelli, as many of you know, was also the Republican nominee who lost to Phil Murphy in 2021. He would also reform Mount Laurel.

Jack Ciattarelli: We are taking Garden right out of the Garden State, Michael. The way we're doing affordable housing right now, quite frankly, it flies in the face of Phil Murphy and the Trenton Democrats' position on sustainability. We're overdeveloping suburbs where there's no mass transit, no infrastructure, no jobs.

Brian Lehrer: Jack Ciattarelli, from last night's debate. Spadea and Ciattarelli, Michael, were really going at each other last night. I listened to the whole thing. Great job, by the way. On this defining issue, as indicated by these clips, I'm not sure they disagreed all that much. What would you say about that?

Michael Hill: Yes, it seemed that way to me, too, that they don't want affordable housing, whatever that means, to come to suburban communities throughout New Jersey, as Spadea has said, which was just quite telling, I thought, to shove it into the cities, as if it's not a responsibility or shared responsibility or should be a shared responsibility for most communities throughout New Jersey and the ones that don't have affordable housing already. I just thought that was a noticeable choice of words there. Shove it into the cities.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. David, same question.

David Cruz: Yes, I think that the answers explain where these guys are coming from philosophically. You hear the rhetoric that Spadea uses. He projects this disdain and dark vision of what urban living in New Jersey is, which reinforces what a lot of people who don't get out to the cities in New Jersey believe as well. I think that showed in that answer, particularly in the use of those words. Ciattarelli believes that suburban towns should remain quaint suburban towns and really maintain a disconnect from the urban centers, which, according to Ciattarelli, should have 100% of the responsibility for affordable housing, because suburban communities are wonderful, but they're not economic engines, is where he's coming from.

Brian Lehrer: David, how much--

Michael Hill: I also think, too--

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead, Michael.

Michael Hill: I also think, too, that underneath all that, even though those words were not spoken last night, is that some folks don't want people, so it seems, certain people coming to their towns. I covered a Bramnick event in the summer of 2017, 2018, and it was in a restaurant in [unintelligible 00:05:13], and it dealt specifically with affordable housing. The things that we heard there were people saying, if you have affordable housing, you bring those people to our town, then it changes the school system. It certainly changes the voting patterns of that town. There are people who are quite resistant to that. Bramnick even has that on his campaign page.

Brian Lehrer: Let's play a clip of Jon Bramnick, the third candidate in the race, only polling in single digits. We don't talk about polls all that much on this show. We try to just focus on the issue. When you're talking about a debate, how they're doing so far when the voting has already started is definitely a big factor in how they debate. Jon Bramnick, for those of you who don't know the prominent state legislator, he's been there almost 25 years. He was clearly the most moderate last night in general. Again, on housing, maybe not that different from the other two. Here he is.

Jon Bramnick: Right now, the Democrats have passed a law that says each town has to have a certain number of affordable housing units, instead of doing it by region.

Brian Lehrer: David, I mean my takeaway listening to the whole debate is that, and I don't know if this was more generated by the two of you or generated by them, but that housing really was the number one issue. Housing was the big thing. I know they got into other things as well. It sounds like this is what New Jerseyans really are focused on right now, whether it's affordable housing or keeping affordable housing out of your community. David, would you say?

David Cruz: I would agree. It's an indicator of the economic pressure that so many people are feeling. To the point where it becomes an existential crisis for some people because if you're lucky enough to have a job, it doesn't pay enough to pay your rent. Then so you've got to find another place to live. Then it becomes a vicious cycle. It is the most pressing issue that any families that we've talked to about what's so hard about living in Jersey today, it's that, and the little-mentioned fact about affordable housing is that it ain't that affordable for everybody.

It may be a certain percentage of your income, et cetera. There are people who are two and three, and four people in an apartment because they can't afford even the affordable housing rents. It's a crisis that hides another crisis, and it's going to take so long. The estimate is that we need 200,000 affordable housing units to meet the demand. That says nothing about the need for public housing, subsidized housing, and those kinds of things that are really masked by this larger conversation about affordable housing.

Brian Lehrer: We play excerpts from last night's Republican gubernatorial primary debate and talk to the two moderators, our Michael Hill and David Cruz from NJ Spotlight News. Let's play a clip of Spadea and a clip of Bramnick relating to President Trump's immigration policies. Spadea first on why not to guarantee full due process to people being deported on suspicion of being gang members.

Bill Spadea: As a Supreme Court justice said back in the 1940s, the Constitution is not a suicide pact. If we have criminal aliens coming over the border, and many are connected to MS-13, many are cartels, that is an invasion. Invaders do not get due process.

Brian Lehrer: Here's Bramnick on that and a theme he kept returning to last night.

Jon Bramnick: If you guys don't show a heart and you don't show some warmth to other human beings and just a cold, calculated soundbite campaign, we're going to lose again.

Brian Lehrer: Bramnick, who's losing in this race so far and was clearly the most centrist, let's say, of the three, he's making an electability argument since Republicans haven't won a lot of statewide elections lately. Right, Michael?

Michael Hill: He is. Even-- We didn't get to this last night, but we certainly had it on our list, and we've discussed this, is that one of the people who supports Spadea is George Gilmore, the Ocean County Republican Party chief. While he supports and endorsed Spadea, he has said that the most electable person to go up against the Democrats, if the Republicans have any chance of winning in November, is Jon Bramnick. He looks at it beyond the primary and sees that, in November, if Republicans really want to win, then even the person he endorses, Spadea, may not be that person.

Brian Lehrer: Here are some texts coming in on the housing issue. Some of them are of one piece, some of them are different, a few that relate to one theme. Listener writes, "Urban means Black. You can practically hear the hard R when they say it." Someone else to that point, just four-word text, "Modern-day redlining." Another one. These are coming from different phone numbers, these texts. "Let's not sugarcoat this. They want suburban counties to remain white."

Another one in Warren and watching. "There are GOP signs on many public intersections asserting that it's the Democrats to blame for developing, that is building mostly McMansions and luxury condos on what is left of forest and other natural space." That takes it another direction. Another one, affordable housing. "Your guests don't understand that developers are coming into New Jersey and grabbing open space to address the 'affordable housing need', but there is no criteria for percentage. They sue to build 600 luxury units that include only a couple of dozen units that are under $750,000." David, your reaction to any of that?

David Cruz: Just those tweets, the text that you referred to. I can't say that's inaccurate, but I will say that it reflects-- I'm hopeful that it reflects the perspective and the rhetoric of leadership, political folks who want to use insecurity, economic insecurity, on the part of suburbanites, to drive that wedge even further on top of what already exists there. I think when it comes to the question of affordable housing and how it will impact in the fall election is-- We were talking about Jon Bramnick, he represents a hopeful vision of what the Republican Party was 10 years ago.

I think that New Jersey has always been moderate in terms of its Republicans, but I think things have gotten a lot harder and the opals have gotten sharper in New Jersey, particularly in the Republican Party, as the President's influence grows. I think that Ramnick is hopeful, but I don't know that he's particularly accurate about that, particularly in the Republican primary. Spadea, he really just spits out MAGA talking points and insists that they're facts. He's a former TV and radio guy, so his ability to string sentences together in a cohesive fashion is something that a lot of New Jersey politicians don't have.

It gives, I think, to people who don't really read up on stuff more. I think it gives them a sense that he's right and that, "Oh, he must know what he's talking about. Look how articulate he is."

Michael Hill: Then--

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead, Michael.

Michael Hill: Then, Brian, too, and David, one of the things that was interesting to me, sitting right next to Spadea last night, listening to him talk, if I had closed my eyes and just simply listened, I would have thought that one of the things is, is there any daylight between Spadea and Trump? It makes it seem that Trump is running for governor in New Jersey to a certain extent.

Brian Lehrer: How much do you think-- Since you just said that, David, I'll throw this to you. How much do you think that how much to be pro-Trump and how much Trump is going overboard in various things that he's doing is on the ballot in this Republican primary?

David Cruz: We think that it is just by how we cover it and what we see when we're covering this primary season. The most recent polling, you referred to the most recent public poll that showed Ciattarelli up by 30 points from Eagleton. It also asked Republican voters if an endorsement from Trump would help them to pick either of the two Trumpy wannabe candidates. It was about even whether it would or wouldn't impact their decision-making. Another aspect of that is that there is evidence that when Trump is at the top of the ticket, conservative MAGA Trump voters in New Jersey come out for him, but when he's not at the top of the ticket, midterms, et cetera, they tend to stay home.

That's a question. Will they come out for the primary, one, and, two, will they come out for the general? All previous indications are that they don't. It's incumbent upon whoever gets the endorsement from Trump, if anybody gets the endorsement from Trump, to find a way to get the Trump MAGA crowd out not only for the primary but for the general, because if they don't get any in the general, it doesn't matter how many strides the Republicans have made in early voting, voter registration, et cetera. The numbers just don't add up for them.

Brian Lehrer: Few more minutes on the Republican gubernatorial primary debate last night, heard on WNYC and seen on NJ Spotlight News with the moderators, David Cruz from NJ Spotlight and our Michael Hill. Mike in Jersey City, you are on WNYC. Hi, Mike.

Mike: Yes, hi there, Brian. I have some credentials on this. I'm the person that revived the set aside 10% of developments for affordable housing in a New Jersey town that's spreading to Jersey City and other places. I helped one town defeat an effort to eliminate rent control. I think that one of the problems with this discussion is it's very unrealistic in terms of the problems involving things like affordable housing. I also say that as a landlord for 25 years of affordable housing, I directly manage them.

When people say they don't want affordable housing projects in suburbs, what they're generally saying is they do not want the crime associated with those urban areas. That's basically the issue. They do not want children with severe social dysfunctions in their public schools. We can question whether they're compassionate or not. To reduce it to racism really misses the point. The point is, if you don't identify the real problem, the real source of opposition, you're not going to solve it.

Similarly, we hear your commentators, somebody lucky enough to get a job, really, I have lots of tenants who have jobs, and I have lots of able-bodied tenants who don't have jobs because they don't get up off and get a job. No fault. Many people who have trouble with affordable housing, unfortunately, made a bad decision earlier in their life. If you have a kid at 17 or make kids at 17 because you're not using birth control, which the numbers suggest is the problem, that needs to be acknowledged, because people are not going to stop doing that stuff unless they start getting called out for it.

Brian Lehrer: Mike, I'll just ask you one quick follow up and then we'll talk to our guests. Given your positions on these issues, maybe you'll be voting in the Republican primary. Do you have a preference among the three candidates when it comes to the housing issue and the things that you've attached to it?

Mike: Frankly, I have such a low regard for the Republican Party in the state of New Jersey, only probably not any more than the Democratic Party in the state of New Jersey. I haven't even looked at those candidates' positions. The level of Jersey-- I don't know what the West Coast is like, but New Jersey politics matches New York state and New York City politics in the level of delusion that it operates under, in my opinion.

Brian Lehrer: Mike, thank you very much for your call. David Cruz, there is obviously a conservative caller in New Jersey and if we can dismiss the people who can't afford housing because they're lazy and they don't want to work, part of that, maybe he's speaking a truth when he says a lot of the reason that people don't want more affordable housing in their mostly white suburban communities is because of the crime that they're afraid would come with the lower income populations. Just as a matter of reporting. Would you say that's true about the reasons people would actually give?

David Cruz: Yes, and no, because affordable housing does not immediately turn your town into a ghetto. That's the fallback that people think when they hear affordable housing. They assume housing projects and all of the issues that come with forcing people to live in housing projects who are already disadvantaged to begin with. That whole mindset is a mindset that we've been hearing forever, and sometimes it's blatantly racist, and sometimes it's blatantly classist.

Anybody who starts by prefacing their remarks by saying that people are lazy and need to learn how to use birth control, it's hard to get beyond that, to be quite honest with you, Brian, because part of yesterday's discussion-- Our goal was to get people's point of view, where they're coming from, not necessarily what their policy decisions may be. I think that what I hear from this person, for me, disqualifies them from being taken seriously. Although you want to hear everybody out, but if the foundation of your argument is built on 1950s mentality, it's hard to get past that for me.

Brian Lehrer: One more--

Michael Hill: Brian, I'll say this.

Brian Lehrer: Michael, go ahead.

Michael Hill: Brian, pardon me. I'll say this. I'll go back to that Bramnick event that I covered in the summer of 2016, '17, '18, whatever it was. It was, I didn't hear that kind of discussion, but what I heard was overcrowding the schools, clogging the roads, that it's certainly going to change the voting patterns. People were very fearful of-- almost at the top of the list, of it changing the voting patterns.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a text to the point you just made. Listener writes, "You can't go back to residene and raise school taxes by 10%, especially during these uncertain times. We're not an endless source of income." Let's end with one more clip. This is on the chaos and the crisis at Newark Airport. 30-second clip, Spadea followed by Bramnick.

Bill Spadea: This summer, Sean Duffy is already on the case, and I support him wholeheartedly. Doesn't involve Congress. Raise the retirement age, allow them today to work 12-hour shifts instead of 10-hour shifts, and you solve the problem today.

Jon Bramnick: Longer hours for air traffic controllers. Right now, they're out on trauma leave, but you want to extend them the hours.

Bill Spadea: No.

Jon Bramnick: It's interesting.

Bill Spadea: This is, again, when you got two guys that add up to almost 80 years in politics, these are the answers you get. For me, coming from the private sector, the outsider, the way to handle this is to empower the air traffic controllers, and guess what--

Jon Bramnick: [crosstalk] Coming from the lack of experience area.

Brian Lehrer: Is that an issue in play, Michael? Extending the hours of air traffic controllers?

Michael Hill: Maybe for Spadea, but I think air traffic controllers would tell you that they're already overstressed. Because we're out on trauma leave, that probably would not be a good idea, especially given the infrastructure issues with equipment and things like that. Where Newark airport, for instance, 90 seconds last week, they had no equipment to monitor where the flights were going, coming, and going, and so forth. I don't think air traffic controllers would think that's a good idea. Neither would safety experts.

Brian Lehrer: All right, so there are some highlights from last night's Republican gubernatorial debate, the Democratic debate is next Monday night. Michael will be doing that, too, along with one of David Cruz's colleagues from NJ Spotlight News. Thank you both for coming on today with clips and analysis of this, and listening to our listeners. Michael, you know that this is the time of the program when we do the news, and I'm really disappointed in you because after doing the debate last night and your morning edition shift today, and then being our guest the last half hour, you're not doing the newscast. I don't know. I just don't know what happened to you, Michael. Falling down on the job?

Michael Hill: I wanted to do it, Brian, but they told me, "You know what? Let's separate this, get someone else to do it." Said, "Okay."

Brian Lehrer: Talk to you tomorrow, Michael. David, thanks a lot.

David Cruz: Thanks. It's why nobody wants to work with Michael. He is a slacker. Good talking to you guys.

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