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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Today on the show, a call in for any of you in the TV and film industry. Looks like this is one Trump tariff threat that a lot of creatives in our area might like. A 100% tariff on movies made elsewhere, as TV and movie jobs have been slow to recover from the pandemic and the strike. It's complicated, especially if there's a trade war in which it gets harder for American made movies to be shown in other countries. Currently, we have a trade surplus in the film industry, according to Deadline. That is, the US sells more movies to other countries than it buys. Just the opposite of the dynamic that Trump is usually worried about on other things. We'll invite your reactions. If you're an actor, a director, a member of the crew in any capacity or anything else related, do you like Trump's idea of big tariffs on movies, including Hollywood movies, but made in other countries, in whole or in part, to be shown here? That's coming up. Also, two views on whether New York City should maintain a gang database, and the science of fluoride in the water supply today.

Let's start here. One of the big decisions in our area this year is, who is going to be the next governor of New Jersey right now? That always matters on the perennial issues like housing, schools, transportation. This year it has the urgent overlay of how to adjust to the political revolution taking place in Washington that affects The Garden State in so many ways. Arguably, choosing a governor is an even bigger deal this year than usual. Last week we played excerpts from the Republican gubernatorial debate held by WNYC and NJ Spotlight News from PBS.

Last night, it was the Democrats' turn, the five qualifying candidates, with WNYC's Michael Hill and NJ Spotlight's Briana Vannozzi. Both moderators will join us in a minute after we begin with our first excerpt. There were five candidates on the set. In alphabetical order, they were, Newark Mayor Ras Baraka, Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop, Member of Congress Josh Gottheimer, Member of Congress Mikie Sherrill, and former State Senate President Steve Sweeney. Because there were five candidates, and we have the luxury of time on this show, yay, we'll go beyond the usual sound bite length for some of our excerpts, beginning with this.

Here is about a three minute exchange that involves Mayor Baraka, Mayor Fulop, and Congresswoman Sherrill. It begins with Briana Vannozzi's question to Baraka about the incident at the ICE detention facility in Newark on Friday.

Briana Vannozzi: Mayor Baraka, it's no secret you were arrested on Friday by Homeland Security for allegedly trespassing. The Congress members you were with, along with yourself, have denied that accusation. We're not here to debate exactly what happened, but you have said that you would stand up to the Trump administration and their immigration policies. In your mind, was this an effective way to do that?

Mayor Ras Baraka: Absolutely. We didn't go down there to protest, we actually went down there to have a press conference. The Congress has oversight, and they began to exercise their oversight. It was escalated by Homeland Security. They made an arrest because they got a call to do so. That's what happened. It is an effective way to do this. I'll tell you what's not effective. Voting for H.R. 3401 to give Trump $4 billion to build a border wall, which, all due respect, the congresswoman did, at the end of the day.

Briana Vannozzi: In terms of the actions on Friday, and having to work with the federal government if you are the governor, how can voters trust that you'll be able to do that and to not interfere with federal law enforcement?

Mayor Ras Baraka: We haven't interfered with federal law enforcement. What they can trust is that we'll protect them at all costs. That's what people need now. They need leadership. They don't want people to acquiesce, to hide in the middle, to run under this veil of, "I'm working with the President of the United States." The reality is we need to protect families, we need to protect immigrants, we need to protect democracy. I swore allegiance to the Constitution of the state of New Jersey and the Constitution of the United States. Not Donald Trump, not the US attorney, and not the Democratic, or Republican Party.

Briana Vannozzi: I'll come to you, Mayor. Since you called out Mikie Sherrill, is there something that you would have done differently? I mean, you went to Delaney Hall this weekend as well.

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: Sure. I think to suggest that I have been supporting Trump's border wall when I was fighting against it as he was taking military construction money to support it, is a fallacy. I have been against private prison constructions for years now, because I was against them when I was at the US Attorney's Office, and certainly worked two years ago, because the governor has said they're illegal here in New Jersey, so I haven't just fought against this administration, I'm willing to take on a Democratic administration as well.

Briana Vannozzi: What would you have done differently if you were the mayor of this city and Delaney Hall was there and now you are the governor?

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: Look, I think what we have to do is continue to fight this. I'm not saying I would do anything differently. I don't think the mayor was trespassing. I think he-- talking to my congressional colleagues, he was invited in, they asked him to leave, he left, and then he got arrested. Mayor, you can tell us if that's a fact, because that's what I've heard.

Briana Vannozzi: Mayor Fulop.

Mayor Steve Fulop: Two quick things. Ras didn't do anything wrong, and what he did say about her supporting the border wall is true. What can the governor do is absolutely pass the Immigrant Trust Act, number one. Number two, fund nonprofits that focus on immigration that have had funding dried up. Number three, stop selling data from the DMV with undocumented immigrants here in New Jersey to data brokers. There are things that the governor can do that are tangible steps beyond protesting. I think elected officials can do those, and they should be pushing the governor.

Brian Lehrer: They should be pushing the governor. There's our first exchange from last night on WNYC and NJ Spotlight News with five Democratic gubernatorial hopefuls. With me now are the two moderators, WNYC's Michael Hill and Briana Vanozzi from NJ Spotlight News, who we heard there. Hi, Michael and Briana. Thanks for joining us for this. Welcome to WNYC.

Briana Vannozzi: It's good to be with you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, especially from New Jersey, our lines are open for your reactions to the clips or the event, if you heard the whole thing, or watched it, or who you're supporting so far and why. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. You can call or text. Michael, first of all, I see this was officially labeled a conversation, not a debate. Why was that?

Michael Hill: Because, and Briana can explain this too, is that we wanted a format that was going to be conducive to the candidates really talking on the spot, as opposed to standing side by side behind a podium and waiting their turn to talk or anything like that. We wanted a conversation. We wanted the candidates to interact with each other in real time, and to respond to things that Candidate A is saying to Candidate B and Candidate C and let them have a hashing out of their ideas and refute, on the spot, right there what someone is saying, or to promote what they're saying as well.

Brian Lehrer: They certainly did that, Briana. I mean, for something called a conversation, they sure did want to debate each other, as we got a taste of in that clip, right?

Briana Vannozzi: Yes. I have to say, these candidates in particular have been quite collegial throughout the primary process. There was a debate back in February, which was a stark contrast to their Republican counterparts. We really felt like, A, they're not going to have the opportunity to pan a 60 second answer, which is what the typical debate format really only allows you to do. We wanted them to have more time to explain their platforms, because also these are policy folks, these candidates. They all, for the most part, have some pretty detailed platforms laid out, and also allow for that eye contact and leaning forward and really engaging with one another.

That said, I don't think any of us expected it to be as tightly wound as it was, and for the contention to come out. I think it just shows, and the candidates said afterwards as well, this is a tight race. Everyone has a lane and they needed to do what they could to take theirs.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Part of that lane, Briana, was, as we heard, Mayor Baraka criticizing Congresswoman Sherrill for voting for something called H.R. 3401. What's that?

Briana Vannozzi: Yes. This is funding for President Trump's border wall. Both Mayor Baraka and Mayor Fulop took shots at Mikie Sherrill for that. Now, Congresswoman Sherrill is the presumed frontrunner. There's a Rutgers-Eagleton poll, which is really the most recent data we have on that, which gives her an edge, but all of the other candidates were polling within the margin of error. So, really, it's anyone's game. They're looking for anywhere to get each other.

This one in particular, because Congresswoman Sherrill has really taken up more of a progressive lane in more recent times, and Mayor Fulop and Mayor Baraka are arguably the two most progressive candidates in this race, that's a bone of contention for them. They have very strong feelings about immigration policies, and they run their cities accordingly.

Brian Lehrer: Michael, briefly on that same clip before we move on to another one, Mayor Baraka certainly got some breakout attention for the Friday incident at the ICE facility. Whether that works for him or against him politically, I guess that remains to be seen. It didn't seem like the other candidates wanted to criticize him for it.

Michael Hill: No. I think part of that is because, as you heard Mikie Sherrill say there, and others before her, say that Mayor Baraka was on public ground. He had complied with immigration officers and DHS and done what they said to do. Apparently, as the reports go, someone was on the phone with the agents there and apparently ordered the agents to arrest him. I don't think we know all the details about that yet. So, they're supporting him because he was doing what they told him to do.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. The stunt may not have been on his part, but on the part of D.C. Let's play our next excerpt. Still on immigration, Briana from NJ Spotlight News is asking Steve Sweeney here about his criticism of New Jersey having a sanctuary status. We will also hear Josh Gottheimer in this clip.

Briana Vannozzi: You have said, as recently as just this last month, in April, that you, if you become governor, would repeal the state's sanctuary status. That's a quote. What exactly do you mean by that? Are you saying that you would rescind the attorney general's Immigrant Trust Directive?

Senator Steve Sweeney: I would say we would come up with a process that actually protects people instead of a process that's not going to-

Briana Vannozzi: What is that process, if not the Immigrant Trust Directive?

Senator Steve Sweeney: Honestly, we have to work on something that's more than this. That's a promise. People are being arrested every single day in this city, all around this state, all around this country. The immigrant trust doctrine doesn't do anything but give false hope, unfortunately, to innocent people that have come here to try to make a better life for themselves. Look, if you came here as a criminal, you got to leave. If you break the law here, you got to leave. Washington, and I'm sorry, because this is where this lies. Washington has to come up with a pathway [crosstalk]-

[crosstalk]

Briana Vannozzi: [crosstalk], one quick comment.

Mayor Steve Fulop: The Immigrant Trust Directive and the Immigrant Trust Act does do something. First of all, it speaks to the values of the state of New Jersey. It speaks to how you view the immigrant community. It speaks to how they live their life in the community of Jersey City or Newark or wherever they reside.

Brian Lehrer: Now, that exchange on immigration continued as Briana followed up with Gottheimer on a way that he's been different from other New Jersey Democrats.

Briana Vannozzi: You broke with the Democratic delegation in New Jersey. You were the only Democrat to do so in voting for the Laken Riley Act, which would allow folks, immigrants who are accused of low level offenses and violent crimes, but accused of, not found guilty of, to be detained and potentially deported. How does that make New Jersey safer?

Congressman Josh Gottheimer: Sure. No, one has nothing to do with the other.

Mayor Ras Baraka: Of course, it does.

Congressman Josh Gottheimer: Let me finish. Laken Riley Act, what it says is, if you are a violent criminal, and you go to someone's house at night with a gun, break into the house-

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: If you're accused of.

Congressman Josh Gottheimer: -if you're a violent criminal, you shouldn't be in the United States and you shouldn't be in New York Jersey. I feel that way. However, what Donald Trump is doing, he's rounding up innocent undocumented people. I've said this from the beginning. What makes New Jersey safer is you stand there and you say as governor, you say, "I don't think so, Trump. You're not coming in here and rounding up innocent undocumented people at restaurants, at schools, at churches." You make it very clear that's the line.

Briana Vannozzi: Does the Laken Riley Act not allow federal immigration-

Congressman Josh Gottheimer: The Laken Riley Act allows due process.

Briana Vannozzi: -agents-

Congressman Josh Gottheimer: They're totally two different things. By the way, if you're a violent criminal-

Mayor Ras Baraka: [crosstalk] by the president, you didn't support it?

Briana Vannozzi: To roundup innocent people who have been accused [crosstalk].

Congressman Josh Gottheimer: No.

Brian Lehrer: Our second and third excerpts from the New Jersey Democrats' exchange, on WNYC and NJ Spotlight News last night. We have the moderators, our Michael Hill, and Briana Vannozzi, anchor from NJ Spotlight News. Briana, what is New Jersey sanctuary status, as Steve Sweeney called it, and what is his position on how he would change it?

Briana Vannozzi: Yes. Well, the Immigrant Trust Directive, which is, it's currently-- this was put under place from former Attorney General Gurbir Grewal. It's a directive only, but there's a long stalled bill that is the counterpart to that, the Immigrant Trust Act, which immigrant advocacy groups have really been pushing for in this last year. In particular, leading up to President Trump's election and particularly after, because it would essentially make it state law banning police officers, prosecutors, corrections officers, law enforcement in New Jersey from working with ICE on detaining undocumented immigrants.

What Steve Sweeney is saying is that it's happening anyway, and that it doesn't afford the protections that he says it alludes to. Mikie Sherrill, I asked her about it as well, and she said she has concerns with it, because she feels it wouldn't hold up in the courts. Josh Gottheimer also has concerns with it. Mayors Fulop and Baraka are pretty staunch advocates of it and say that they would sign it within their first 10 days in office. This is really where you can see the candidates' differences. It's funny listening back.

It doesn't always feel as heated in the moment as when I'm listening back. So I give listeners credit for sticking with it, because it's tough to hear everyone arguing there. Really, you hear some very clear lines in the sand on where these candidates are when it comes to immigration. I think that's where we found some of the biggest discrepancies last night.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and Briana, Gottheimer-

Michael Hill: You know, Brian-

Brian Lehrer: Michael, go ahead.

Michael Hill: Brian, one of the things that-- to add what Briana is saying is that one of the things I found interesting was Congresswoman Sherrill, a former prosecutor, was saying, if you really push something like this and push and this winds up in the courts, then what's going to happen is the Supreme Court or some other court will begin to, or somebody may file briefs and so forth. Before you know it, all of the protections that states and cities now have across the country would probably be knocked down in court. That would then open up the doorway for ICE to come in without any state restrictions, city restrictions, to do whatever ICE wants to do.

Brian Lehrer: Briana, Gottheimer never really did answer your persistent follow ups about why he thinks the Laken Riley Act has due process if people can be deported on the basis of being accused rather than convicted. How much of an outlier is he among the Democrats on that?

Briana Vannozzi: Certainly among these candidates, he is, and among the New Jersey Democratic congressional delegation. I think, as I noted there in the question last night, he was the only to break from his party in that vote. We have not been able, since that vote and as recently as last night, we have not been able to get an answer on what his reasoning was for voting for that. You heard him talk there about violent criminals.

It does as well include violent criminals, but you'll hear from advocates. We hear from advocates all the time, that their concern with it was about the accused for low level offenses. There's a big difference there for Josh Gottheimer in terms of what he sees. He has taken a harder line approach in general on immigration policy.

Brian Lehrer: More excerpts, folks, from last night's Democratic gubernatorial hopefuls' conversation in a minute, as we move on to other issues with the two moderators and we'll start to fold in your reactions. 212-433-WNYC, call or text. 212-433-9692. Stay with us.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We're listening to excerpts from last night's WNYC and NJ Spotlight News event with the five qualifying Democratic gubernatorial candidates. Newark Mayor Ras Baraka, Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop, Member of Congress Josh Gottheimer, Member of Congress Mikie Sherrill, and former State Senate President Steve Sweeney. Alphabetical by last name there. So we're not playing any favorites. The sixth candidate on the ballot, and yes, there are six, New Jersey teachers union president and former Montclair Mayor Sean Spiller didn't qualify for the debate. Michael, briefly, why was that?

Michael Hill: Because he didn't meet the campaign income requirements. You're supposed to raise enough money to meet that requirement. I think it's $580,000. He didn't meet that. Elect Law Enforcement Commission there for the election in New Jersey, if you don't meet that, then you're not invited to their sponsored forums and debates.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, here's a text from a listener who liked you, Michael, but not necessarily the people you were talking to. This says, "Please tell Michael I loved listening to the NJ gubernatorial 'conversation' because he was moderating, but the childish and constant interruptions of candidates made listening painful. A total cacophony of chaos." All right, next excerpt. This is another three minute exchange, with the luxury of time we have on this show.

This one is about affordable housing, and you'll hear all five candidates. It starts with Congressman Gottheimer taking a position that I believe only he took, emphasizing that New Jersey should not raise taxes on the rich to pay for more state services.

Congressman Josh Gottheimer: The whole issue about housing is part of a much bigger issue. Right? Jersey is just way too expensive. 41% of seniors, according to AARP, said they're considering leaving our state because taxes are too high, because property tax is too high. People are getting crushed. Whether rents, because they're up 33%, or their property taxes or childcare costs or utility bills going up 40%. People are leaving. They're not coming. They're getting crushed. We got to cut people's taxes. I'm the only one up here who's put out a tax cut plan. Why? Because we have to cut people's taxes. They can't afford it. They're leaving.

Mayor Ras Baraka: You guys have a tax cut plan, tax cuts for the wealthy in the state of New Jersey. Ultimately-

Congressman Josh Gottheimer: You've raised taxes 25% in Newark.

Mayor Ras Baraka: Never. I have never did.

Congressman Josh Gottheimer: Really?

Mayor Ras Baraka: Never.

Congressman Josh Gottheimer: Property tax are up 25% since you're mayor.

Mayor Ras Baraka: 3% is [crosstalk]-

Congressman Josh Gottheimer: Is that what you're going to do for as governor?

Mayor Ras Baraka: No, I'm not going to give millionaires tax break.

Congressman Josh Gottheimer: Come on. Steve's raised taxes 50%. It's out of control.

Mayor Ras Baraka: None of it is true.

Briana Vannozzi: We're not going to be able to hear [crosstalk]-

[crosstalk]

Michael Hill: Mayor Baraka, let's hear what you have to say.

Mayor Ras Baraka: Yes, and he voted for the Republicans more than anybody in the Congress.

Congressman Josh Gottheimer: They said [crosstalk] Nancy Pelosi's stooge. Really?

Mayor Ras Baraka: In any event. That's already happened. We're building adaptive reuse housing now, but it doesn't make sense that you say we're going to build affordable housing and you take money from BlackRock, that's responsible for driving mortgage prices up in the first place, or take money from the Kushners, that are driving these prices up in the first place. The reality is, we have to build 20,000, 30,000 units of housing in the next couple of years.

We have to do that by creating a fund to invest in public housing. We have to invest in public housing now, in affordable housing now. We create a fund to do that. We sit with the building trades, local businesses, with mayors and local leaders, to talk about how we identify-

Congressman Josh Gottheimer: We got to cut taxes. Don't you agree?

Mayor Ras Baraka: -where we need to build that next to transit. That's where we begin, period.

Michael Hill: Mayor Fulop.

Mayor Steve Fulop: I want to say that there's nobody on this stage that's built more housing than I have in Jersey City.

Mayor Ras Baraka: We're talking about affordable housing.

Mayor Steve Fulop: I built more affordable housing than anybody in the state of New Jersey. Okay?

Mayor Ras Baraka: That's not true.

Mayor Steve Fulop: That is true. Let's start with the fact that a home rule is a problem in New Jersey. You need to understand the levers in order to move a mayor in a way that there is a carrot and a stick, ultimately. That doesn't happen today. Tax abatements for adaptive reuse, Mikie, already exists in the state of New Jersey. Okay? Those sort of things are not new ideas. You need to-

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: We're not utilizing them correctly to push in buildings in places that we need to build.

Mayor Steve Fulop: Listen, I don't know, how many buildings have you built? How many times have you negotiated with a developer? How many times have you-

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: I pushed in a lot of building affordable housing. We have Madison, I'm about to go cut the ribbon in Madison, New Jersey.

Michael Hill: Please, let him speak.

Mayor Steve Fulop: My point is, cutting the ribbon is not the same as negotiating with the developer as far as give backs and community involvement and all of that stuff.

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: I just don't think you've pushed into affordable housing in the appropriate way.

Michael Hill: Please, let him finish.

Mayor Steve Fulop: Mikie, you've never built a single unit.

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: He keeps addressing me so I'm going to answer him.

Mayor Steve Fulop: You haven't built a single unit, Mikie. You talk about it, and you've supported people that were opposed to affordable housing in New Jersey in October and then you pulled in Millburn.

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: How are you saying I supported [crosstalk]?

Mayor Steve Fulop: In Millburn. Of course you did. You did fundraisers for those people. Of course you did.

Michael Hill: Senator Sweeney.

Senator Steve Sweeney: I put a plan out called builders, about building 200,000 units in five years. First, unlock all the affordable money that's sitting in the state right now. There's probably $120 million to get started. Then towns that aren't spending their affordable housing dollars, a lot of them have them, after a certain period of time you can actually take them and start building housing.

Brian Lehrer: That excerpt from last night's conversation on WNYC and NJ Spotlight News between the five qualifying Democrats in the New Jersey gubernatorial primary. Michael, what stood out to you from that exchange? I did include some of that crosstalk, because I thought it was discernible to the listeners and it was fairly substantive on both experience and policy. Are there big differences on how to create more affordable housing? We certainly heard Gottheimer at the beginning there say, "Don't raise taxes."

Michael Hill: Yes, it seems like there is, but I think they're all trying to win the horse race on affordability in New Jersey, and affordable housing is the big issue. You can talk about energy prices and energy costs and things like that, but how to build more affordable housing, how to expand that platform for people who salaries don't increase nearly at the same rate as the cost of housing. If you can win on that argument and produce a convincing argument for, you can do it better than anybody else, and you have done it, then you probably stand a pretty good chance of garnering some votes that you're pursuing.

Brian Lehrer: Briana, same question.

Briana Vannozzi: Yes. I mean, Congressman Gottheimer has really taken some heat for his plan, his tax plan, which is to cut taxes by 15% for everyone across the board, because a lot of people are saying the math isn't mathing here. We have a state budget that's heading toward a more than $3 billion gap, a shortfall in revenues. Essentially, he has said that he would pay for these property tax cuts by finding more efficiency within the state government and within the state budget. The amount that he would have to find is somewhere around over $5 billion, which is not unfeasible. It certainly could happen.

I'm not here to say one way or the other, but the reason that you hear those candidates taking him to task is because they don't feel as though it's realistic. Gottheimer is the co-chair of the Problem Solvers Caucus. He has made a name for himself helping to deliver the 2021 Infrastructure Bill in President Biden's administration. He's a known negotiator. What you heard last night is folks really asking him to show them the math. Particularly the mayors who, as you heard Mayor Fulop say, have been sort of head deep in this for quite some time. The numbers are pretty stark, in terms of what the state would have to save in order to add those cost savings.

Brian Lehrer: The issue of home rule, Michael, since you moderated both debates, came up with the Republicans and then again last night with the Democrats. This idea that, as one of the candidates said, there are even more school superintendents in New Jersey than there are mayors, because there are over 600 different school districts, and with each one having a bureaucracy, that supposedly pushes up the cost of education, it pushes up the cost of property taxes. I don't know that anybody from either party has really come up with a proposal for how to get towns and cities to actually consolidate, because there's so much resistance to that.

Michael Hill: Steve Sweeney pointed out that it's happening right now. I think he said in Monmouth County, it has happened. He said that he sponsored a bill in the legislature when he was Senate President to get this done. I think perhaps people may not want to lose their power in certain districts, but you can certainly understand that the cost savings are there, in terms of taxes, in terms of consolidating administrations, and consolidating school districts. Sweeney talked about that. It just hasn't happened on a wide scale. Governors could have power to do that by offering incentives to get it done.

Brian Lehrer: Briana, what was Mayor Baraka's-- what was he referring to there when he talked about taking money from BlackRock and from the Kushners?

Briana Vannozzi: Well, he's referring to development projects that have been signed off by Mayor Fulop. In particular, in Jersey City, where we've seen certainly, the cost of rent and the cost of housing there is among the highest in the country. Mayor Fulop contends he's the only mayor in the state who's built more affordable housing. That he's built the most, rather, out of any municipality in New Jersey, but there are developers, like the Kushner family, of course, Jared Kushner, the son-in-law of President Trump, who have built lots of luxury high rise buildings that many would argue are out of reach for John Q. voter, taxpayer in New Jersey.

That's something, as well, that Newark has come under fire for, in terms of some of the redevelopment that's happened, that has perhaps pushed out some of the locals and has been unattainable for folks who live and work in Newark.

Brian Lehrer: Harvey in Montclair, you're on WNYC. Hi, Harvey.

Harvey: Good morning.

Brian Lehrer: Good morning.

Briana Vannozzi: Hi.

Harvey: Good morning. What I wanted to say is that we have two people running for governor who are already in Congress. How are we going to flip the Congress if the people who are-- the Democrats who are already there are leaving? Particularly Mikie Sherrill. She's already obligated to fulfill the office she just got renewed in. Now she's going to leave that and run for governor? As they say in finance, she's already sufficiently obligated. As for Gottheimer, the same thing applies to him. How about doing the job you already have before you move on?

Brian Lehrer: Harvey, thank you very much. Michael, by way of political analysis, if you're in the weeds enough on the politics within those districts, as the Democrats hope to retake Congress in the midterm elections next year, are those districts in play? The Mikie Sherrill district or the Josh Gottheimer district, would they risk losing them to Republicans? Of course, it always depends on the candidates, but generally speaking, the politics of those districts, would they risk or be at high risk of losing them to Republicans if one of them were to become governor and vacate the seat?

Michael Hill: Brian, maybe less so now than before redistricting, because the Democrats in New Jersey, as I understand it with redistricting, congressional district 7, which is Representative Kean's district, is more Republican now than it was before redistricting. The reason the Democrats did that is because they said they were willing to, more or less, to sacrifice one district as opposed to risking three districts. The 5th, Mikie Sherrill's district, and district 7.

According to the Democrats, they put more Republicans in district 7, Representative Kean, making it harder for a Democrat to win there, so they could add more Democrats to Gottheimer's district and Sherrill's district, to ensure that Democrats would win those districts in Congress.

Brian Lehrer: These next excerpts will be about how to be governor when Donald Trump is president. First will be Mikie Sherrill asserting she has stood up to Trump in Congress.

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: Well, I would say in my first term it looked like leading the caucus and impeaching him the first time, but right now it involves standing up to his administration, standing up to people like the worst head of the Department of Defense we've ever had.

Mayor Ras Baraka: How would you stand up to him?

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: I've already done that. I've been laying out a path for why we need to have him fired immediately, but also getting Elon Musk drug tested, for example, as I've put forth. In New Jersey, making sure that we are taking him to court, pushing back against these Medicaid cuts, climb that federal funding back to New Jersey. It would look like what you see California doing, for example. The governor of California has Trump in court right now because he is saying that these tariffs are illegal. They are not an executive branch function.

Brian Lehrer: Mikie Sherrill there. Now, continuing on being governor when Donald Trump is president, the conversation shifted to what they would do if there are big federal funding cuts to the states. In this clip, we'll hear Ras Baraka, Steve Fulop, and Josh Gottheimer.

Ras Baraka: The reality is, this is our opportunity to say we can't afford to subsidize millionaires anymore. We have to put that money back in the budget. $15 billion that was cut since Christie was the governor of the state of New Jersey. We need to bring that money back. We need to change our tax codes so the wealthy are paying their fair share in our state so we can put more money in our budget to invest in working families, because what efficiency looks like to these guys is cutting Medicaid, cutting health services, cutting food programs. We don't need to do that.

Cutting educational programs. Not funding the pension. We don't need that. What we need to do is tax the billionaires, the multinational corporations, make them pay their fair share, and then fund the programs that are in trouble here in the state of New Jersey.

Mayor Steve Fulop: I agree with what Ras said. The only thing I would add additionally is that there needs to be more transparency. There should be town halls from the governor, from the Assembly, from the state Senate, in every district. Talking about what's at risk, making it clear to the public. I don't think we're doing that today. It's a big gap between how Trenton treats the public, ultimately, because you have billions of dollars at risk. We're going to have to make choices. That's the reality of the conversation. I think executive knows that. Being clear with the public early is a crucial part of the conversation that's not happening.

Congressman Josh Gottheimer: Briana, we're not going to grow our state if we just keep doing what everyone else says we should always do. Just like you're taxing and taxing and taxing.

Brian Lehrer: The candidates there on standing up to or adjusting to federal funding cuts from Trump and the Republican Congress. Briana, we heard the Mikie Sherrill clip first, but a theme from Mayor Baraka was that neither of the Congress members on stage, Sherrill or Gottheimer, have bucked the Republicans enough, rather than take a tone of work with them on some things that they agree enough on to help the state. Any impressions of how different they'd really be as governor in tone or in substance in this respect? I think we can say they'd all be pretty different from Eric Adams.

Briana Vannozzi: That is true. They certainly would be. I think Josh Gottheimer's campaign would take fault with that. He has broken with the party more than any of the other Democratic congressional members to vote with Republicans, which he says is a sign of his pragmatism and a sign of the fact that he is still a bit more of a centrist Democrat, if they still exist. It's Josh Gottheimer and Steve Sweeney in this race, and particularly on issues like Israel, immigration, some budget policy as well. There are big differences, I think, in how they would be governor.

I think the criticism with Mikie Sherrill that we have heard as journalists throughout this election season is more of Governor Murphy. That she's the establishment Democrat. That she has the party backing, and that she would really toe the line and carry on the organization's platform, and the folks who would be part of her cabinet would be "more of the same." I think Mikie Sherrill has also carved a lane for herself. She has also deviated from the party in votes on immigration as well, and as you heard last night. There are some big differences, and then some fundamentals that they all agree on as well.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Last excerpt from the debate. They went around the room to all five candidates, in quick succession, near the end of the hour, as Briana asked them this.

Briana Vannozzi: Should parents have the right to opt their kids out of LGBTQ-related content in the same way that right now they can be removed from sex ed and health curriculum classes?

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: Look, I believe that parents have the right to oversee their children's education. I would push an LGBTQ education into our schools. Parents have a right to opt out of a lot of things, but this is not an area where they should be opting out, because this is an area of understanding the background of people throughout our nation. Right now, we see, for example, at the Naval Academy, an erasure of history.

Briana Vannozzi: All right. Steve Sweeney.

Senator Steve Sweeney: Listen, I believe in educating people. I think it's very important for people to know who the people are in the communities they live. I think that's very important, but I also believe parents, that's my child. I have a right to my child. To make sure that my child is getting the education I want. Oh, and I'm the only one with a plan for a cold restoration.

Briana Vannozzi: Steve Fulop.

Mayor Steve Fulop: My belief is, first, I have three kids as well. I want to know what's going on with them, but I believe that vulnerable communities should be taught in schools. Whether it's the African American community, the LGBTQ community, Holocaust history, history of vulnerable communities should be taught in schools. When you start getting into a place of saying you can opt out on a certain type of education, it's a slippery slope to go down.

Briana Vannozzi: Quickly.

Mayor Ras Baraka: I would add Asian Pacific Islanders, I would add Islamic and Muslim to that as well.

Briana Vannozzi: Congressman.

Congressman Josh Gottheimer: I agree. We should teach all our kids, but we got to let parents be parents. Also, I know not every parent is going to be like we might be. So, I want to make sure that-- we know that 25% of trans kids either try to commit suicide or do commit suicide, and we can't allow that.

Briana Vannozzi: Go ahead, Mikie.

Brian Lehrer: Briana, I think to my ear, we heard one outlier there. I think Sweeney, and only Sweeney, was more in line with letting parents opt their kids out of lessons in school about people who are LGBTQ, but it all went by pretty fast. How did you hear it?

Briana Vannozzi: [chuckles] It did. Indeed. Yes, Steve Sweeney, and he's made no bones about that in the past. He has definitely some progressive bona fides, but this is one area where he feels that parents should have more of a say. This is before the Supreme Court. This is an issue that stems from curriculum in Maryland's Montgomery County Public Schools, where children were reading a book, Prince & Knight. These are LGBTQ-themed books that have been used in the class. A lot of just debate among parents about whether their kids should be able to opt out.

The issue is going before the Supreme Court in New Jersey right now. Parents with religious exemptions can opt their kids out of sex ed and other health classes and curriculum that's related to it. This has been a hot button issue throughout the last couple of election cycles. I don't think it's going to go away anytime soon, particularly because we've seen a rise in the parental rights movement at the school board level and more of that discussion happening there. Yes, I would say easily, Sweeney was the outlier.

Brian Lehrer: Before we wrap this up, let me just get two listeners' thoughts. I think one thought and one question on the vital issue of education. One listener writes, "Isn't there a property tax increase cap in New Jersey, or is that for school budgets? The answer changes the property tax discussion. So that's where education and property taxes overlap." Susan, in Summit, is on the phone. Susan, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Susan: Hi. My question is, and I haven't heard anybody speak about it, although I'll be honest, I didn't see the program last night, is that I see lots of disparity in the education that let's say somebody in Irvington gets and somebody in Milburn gets. I hear that there's a shortage of teachers. What I see is that people, most young people and people I know who are teachers don't want to go teach in Irvington. They don't want to go teach in Newark. I think that's a shame, because I think a lot of bright minds are being neglected, especially in the lower grades, where they all learn all the important things, the basic things, reading especially, and why are we solo in the universe?

Everybody says that New Jersey has the best school systems. Well, there's plenty of school systems that aren't so great. We need to address that and find out why, and what can any of these candidates do about it? You need to attract good teachers. There's a school my daughter teaches in, and I'm not going to mention it, but they had to lay off 30 teachers. 30 great teachers. I don't get it. You could be sure they probably won't go apply to those schools I mentioned.

Brian Lehrer: Susan, thank you very much. Yes. Michael, we have Susan, referring to what I think some candidates have brought up on both sides of the aisle. That New Jersey is often said to have one of the best, if not the best education systems in the country, even though it's 600 different school districts. Yet that contrasts with this, for example, that another listener texted. "New Jersey is the most segregated by zip code in the country. That reflects in schooling, housing, and taxes," writes that listener.

Michael Hill: Yes, from Newark is Senate Majority Leader Teresa Ruiz, and she makes a point in all these national reports talking about New Jersey having great public schools and so forth. She will stop you dead in your tracks and tell you not when it comes to Black and brown kids in New Jersey. It's a whole different situation, she says, and the statistics bear that out. The level of education, the resources, she says, it's not equal. It's just not equal. She has been waging this battle. She used to be chair of the Senate Education Committee in New Jersey, and she has been waging this battle. I've covered some of her hearings. She has been waging this battle for years.

Briana Vannozzi: Brian, I'll just add to that. There are a couple of programs. One, our attorney general here in New Jersey, Matt Platkin, filed a legal challenge against the Trump administration for successfully, which were cuts to grants that helped a pipeline of teachers to go into urban districts, lower income districts and place those teachers there, but also to provide them with the type of supports that they need to not just go there for a year or two, but stay there and make a career out of it. That's one item.

That grant money has consistently been there, but was on the chopping block this year. As well as other programs like Teach for America, which stemmed from the same idea of putting more of a pipeline into those areas. As to the 2% cap, the listener is correct that the state, which was enacted in 2010, with former Senate President Steve Sweeney and Governor Chris Christie, it puts a limit on how much local governments can increase their property tax, it says each year.

Recently, the legislature here enacted an exception so that districts, municipalities that have big enrollment increases in their school districts or have more health benefit costs, certain costs when it pertains to special education, English as a Second Language learners, that they can go to their constituents, go to the towns and ask property taxpayers if they would be in favor of lifting that. We've seen that happen to the tune of double digit increases this year across the state, as districts grapple with the potential of either laying off teachers, closing their schools, or raising taxes.

Brian Lehrer: Briana Vannozzi from NJ Spotlight News, thanks for joining us today.

Briana Vannozzi: Thanks so much.

Brian Lehrer: WNYC's Michael Hill, thanks for coming on, as always.

Michael Hill: Most welcome, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, I hope these have been useful for you. Our segments after last week's Republican gubernatorial primary debate, and now this one this morning after the Democrats were on stage last night. Obviously, we will continue to cover the race. Brian Lehrer on WNYC, we turn the page. Much more to come.

 

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