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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC now to the race for Senate in the New Jersey seat once held by Bob Menendez. Congressman Andy Kim, the Democrat, and businessman Curtis Bashaw met this week for the first of three scheduled debates. There was a concerning moment on stage when Bashaw froze for several seconds and looked to be on the verge of passing out. That came about ten minutes in. After a pause, things did get started up again and the two candidates faced questions about affordability, immigration, and abortion, among other topics. It was mostly cordial, but there were a couple of pointed exchanges, which we'll hear some excerpts from.

By the way, both these two candidates would make history if elected to the Senate. Bashaw, who's presenting himself as a different kind of common sense Republican, would be New Jersey's first-ever gay us senator, and Kim would be the first-ever Korean American senator from any state. We'll hear clips and get some analysis now from Brent Johnson, political reporter in the Statehouse Bureau of The Star-Ledger and their website, nj.com. Hi, Brent. Welcome back to WNYC.

Brent Johnson: Happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: First, how is Curtis Bashaw doing?

Brent Johnson: Fine. I reached out to his campaign the day after this happened and they said it was not a medical issue. He just hadn't eaten a lot the day of the debate and he was famished and not feeling well. It wasn't anything serious and that he was doing fine. No need for medical testing, they told me.

Brian Lehrer: Can we assume that this is not like when Joe Biden seemed to freeze on stage or have difficulty answering questions over and over again in that now legendary debate? There's not some serious question about Curtis Bashaw's health that might inform voters' decisions or even his party's decision about whether to try to remove him as happened to Biden?

Brent Johnson: No, the thing I kept hearing was people comparing it to Mitch McConnell when he had that episode where he froze on in the news conference, but no, he came back out five minutes later. They took a break and he proceeded to appear fine in the rest of the 90-minute debate. That wiped away any concern. It was touch and go there for a minute, but he recovered and they had a normal debate, nothing else wrong the rest of the time.

Brian Lehrer: How old is Curtis Bashaw and how old is Andy Kim if you know?

Brent Johnson: Kim is 42, I believe Bashaw is in his 60s, 61, I think.

Brian Lehrer: Not that old in either case-

Brent Johnson: No, neither are.

Brian Lehrer: -as these things go.

Brent Johnson: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Part of his pitch to voters is that he claims to be a different kind of republican. Here's 10 seconds.

Curtis Bashaw: I've been married to my husband for 22 years. I am pro-choice, pro-parent, pro-business. I believe in common sense.

Brian Lehrer: Brent, let's first clear up the pronunciation of his name. Does he say Bashaw or does he say Bashaw? Because I'm hearing it in the media both ways.

Brent Johnson: Yes, it's Bashaw. Emphasis on the first syllable. That's what I've been told.

Brian Lehrer: Okay, so I heard it right.

Brent Johnson: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Who is Curtis Bashaw and why is he running?

Brent Johnson: He is a longtime hotel developer and owner and restaurant owner. He's a businessman who's been around in the state for a long time. He used to serve on the casino control commission down here. He develops hotels. The most famous hotel he developed is Congress Hall, which is the big old-school historic hotel in Cape May where he grew up. He said he wants to run because it's time for a change in New Jersey, that it's time to treat businesses better, and that after the Menendez scandal, we need someone of character in there. That's what he says he's running for.

Brian Lehrer: What has he said makes him a Republican? Because in that clip, he started with, I've been married to my husband for 22 years. I am pro-choice. Then he went on to say some things that might be more republican style. Code words, pro-parent. Not that Democrats would say they're not pro-parent, pro-business, not that Democrats would say they're not pro-business, but they'd also say they're very much for labor rights, et cetera. He said, "I believe in common sense," but leading with, "I've been married to my husband for 22 years, gay married. I'm pro-choice." What makes him a Republican in his eyes?

Brent Johnson: That is a great question. The business ties are really the thing that ties him most to the Republican Party. He talks about lower taxes, unshackling businesses is something he said frequently, that it's time to get rid of some regulations and be kinder to businesses so they don't flee the state and don't get hurt throughout the country. He's an old-school New Jersey Republican in the sense that going back to Christy Whitman or Tom Kane senior, very moderate, new sense that he's openly gay and pro-choice. He's trying to appeal to a middle-of-the-road independent voter base in New Jersey.

He's in that school, but the question is, can someone like that, trying to be a non-divisive Republican, work in the Donald Trump era?

Brian Lehrer: Did they ask if he supports Donald Trump or if he was in the Senate in 2021 on January 6th, would he have voted to certify the election?

Brent Johnson: Yes, they did. He is going to vote for Trump. He said elections are our choices and that he thinks the country can't afford four more years of the Biden-Harris administration. He was pressed. He's been pressed numerous times throughout the campaign. If you are this new Republican, why would you vote for the new-age Republican of the Trump administration? He said it's a choice. He has said that he would certify, or he would agree to certify the election results if Trump did lose. He wouldn't fight that. He wasn't specifically about 2020, but he said if it was this time, that he would support it if Trump lost.

Brian Lehrer: All right, now, Andy Kim's path to that debate stage and to the Democratic nomination in this race has been really interesting. We've been talking about it, of course, during this year since he entered the race after Senator Bob Menendez was indicted on corruption and bribery charges. Then Kim was up against New Jersey first lady Tammy Murphy early on in the primary process. Now that his past opponents in the primary, much more well-known statewide than him are out of the spotlight, what's Andy Kim's pitch to voters?

Brent Johnson: He is saying that he's shown he's willing to take on the party machine in his own party, that he believes that after the Menendez scandal, it's really time to reform some of the politics in New Jersey, and he's the person to do it. He has a reputation for being a good, nice, progressive guy. During the debate, he got a lot of plaudits for when the Bashaw incident happened that he walked over right away and asked if Bashar was okay. He's presenting himself as also a new kind of Democrat, a modern Democrat who's willing to take on his own party and do things to help working people. He's presenting himself in a fresh light, too.

Brian Lehrer: Asked what he's doing in Congress to help make New Jersey one of the least affordable states, more affordable to his constituents, Kim answered this way. This is 30 seconds.

Andy Kim: Making sure that we're passing legislation into law to lower prescription drug costs. We've been able to allow Medicare to negotiate drug prices. I'm trying to pass legislation that allow Medicare recipients to get vision hearing, dental coverage. These are the types of things that I hear about and we want to make sure we're doing that for all Americans. These are the types of issues that I hear about at the 80 town halls that I've held, making sure that we're delivering for the people of New Jersey. Yes, I want to make sure we're taking the steps to build. We need a decade of building to be able to make sure that we have more housing out there to help people who are struggling.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting that that came up in that way. Bring down Medicare costs and build more housing. I'm hosting, as I've mentioned on the show a few times, a national call-in series pegged to the election on Wednesday nights at 08:00 starting tonight on many public radio stations. That's going to be specifically about cost of living issues that seem to be so central for swing voters in swing states. I know New Jersey is not a swing state, but part one tonight is going to be on healthcare costs. Part two next Wednesday is going to be on housing costs. Where do those issues rank in the priority of voters in the state of New Jersey?

Brent Johnson: There was just a Stockton University poll that showed the economy and affordability is by far the number one issue in this election in general, not just the Senate race, but the presidential too. New Jersey is an incredibly difficult place to live when it comes to cost. The housing costs out here are astronomical. We've had a crisis for affordable housing for many decades now. There's not enough subsidized affordable housing available. That's top of mind to voters.

Brian Lehrer: It was at that point in the debate, coincidentally, that Bashaw had that scary moment. He came back and touted his experience as an employer of 1000 people. He also said, "We can't spend our way to prosperity." What was his road to more affordability in health care costs or housing or anything else?

Brent Johnson: I haven't seen him present a detailed plan in public at least. I'd have to go on his website to see that. He is saying that he keeps talking about unshackling businesses and lowering taxes. Those are the two main economic platforms that he's spoken about in public. Regulations. He said regulations are really killing businesses and in turn, that's killing workers who can't get better-paying jobs. The economy is really one of his main focuses going forward.

Brian Lehrer: If he said we can't spend our way to prosperity, did he get specific at all about what kinds of federal spending as a US senator he would try to reduce?

Brent Johnson: He also wasn't asked about that, but that's, I imagine, something that he's going to hammer on over the final few weeks.

Brian Lehrer: Probably the most pointed exchange at this debate was over abortion rights. Let's listen to about a minute and a half of that. Democrat Andy Kim speaks first.

Andy Kim: What we saw was Mr. Bashaw during the republican primary saying that this Dobbs decision was correctly decided and that he was happy that the decision returned to the states. Now that we're in the general election and he's passed his primary, we see a change in his position and now saying that this is about a federal law that needs to happen across our entire country. It's just one of those things, Mr. Bashaw, that I just fundamentally have a problem with you using the term pro-choice to describe yourself when you have talked about the importance of the Dobbs decision being correctly decided.

I just find that to be fundamentally different and inextricably separate. I think the people of New Jersey recognize this and understand when we are hearing talking points trying to put forward to help a political campaign rather than actual legislation, rather than actual solutions, to be able to help women in this country be able to make decisions about their own body.

Speaker 1: Mr. Bashaw, would you like 30 seconds to rebut?

Curtis Bashaw: Thank you. Yes, I would. I ran in a republican primary as a pro-choice candidate and every one of those 19 conventions I went to, I said that I didn't think government should be in our homes telling us what to do. I understand what the court did in the Dobbs decision. They believe in the separation of powers, and so they sent it back to the states and it should go back to the US Congress and get codified. I will work on that and I will support that. The words are simple. I am pro-choice, congressman. I am.

Brian Lehrer: Brent, anything you want to say about that exchange? One thing I was thinking as I listened to the end of Bashaw's answer there when he said it should go back to the US Congress and get codified, does that mean that he takes the Kamala Harris position, even as a republican candidate for the Senate, that there should be a federal law enshrining Roe versus Wade protections?

Brent Johnson: He has not gone that far. This is one thing that people keep trying to pin him down on. He has said he's pro-choice and he's repeated that numerous times and that he's in favor of what he has said is bipartisan legislation to say that women should have a choice. He hasn't quite gotten the language that detailed, so he was asked during an edit board with our newspaper recently about would he enshrine Roe versus Wade, and he didn't quite go that far. He said that the bipartisan collection of lawmakers in Washington should get together and codify a woman's right to choose in some way, though it hasn't been that detailed.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners in New Jersey, any comments or questions about the Kim-Bashaw US Senate race? 212-433 WNYC 212-433-9692 call or text as we listen to some clips from their debate this week and get analysis from Brent Johnson, political reporter in the Statehouse Bureau of The Star-Ledger and their website, nj.com 212-433 WNYC 212-433-9692. Another big issue for any incoming senator and in the state of New Jersey as well, is immigration. Both these candidates were asked whether they think there's an immigration crisis in the state, and they both answered yes. Here's about 30 seconds of Bashaw's response.

Curtis Bashaw: I do think it's a crisis. It's a crisis in New Jersey. There are close to 900,000 illegals living in our state, not only making us feeling insecure but costing us billions of dollars. I went to the border. I stood there in an unfinished section of the wall in Yuma, Arizona, from 12:30 to 3:00 in the morning, and I watched 62 people walk into our country from all over the world. It dawned on me, we need to separate border security from immigration policy.

Brian Lehrer: We need to separate border security from immigration policy. Any details on that from Bashaw?

Brent Johnson: Not yet, although that is something he has repeated a few times, that we have to uncouple those things, that immigrants are not an evil group, that should be demonized, that they are a good thing and can help the country. The problem is the security at the border is letting it get out of control. He has not presented a firm plan on that, but he's made that clear numerous times that he is not anti-immigrant. He is pro-security, is how he puts it.

Brian Lehrer: What did Andy Kim say to that question?

Brent Johnson: Andy Kim was a bit more measured. He also said that he hates how xenophobia seems to have taken over this conversation and we really need to curb that. He said that we need to improve border security, too. Again, this wasn't a really detailed-oriented answer from either of them, but he said that, yes, there needs to be better border security as well. The immigration problem is something that has to be solved. He suggested that this is something that needs to be done through legislation, through Congress, which, as we know in the past hasn't always been an easy thing to do.

Brian Lehrer: Judith in Sussex County, you're on WNYC. Hi, Judith.

Judith: Hi there.

Brian Lehrer: What you got?

Judith: My question is we have a beautiful farmland in Sussex County, New Jersey, including organic farms, which is why I moved here where I retired here. I'm wondering if both candidates have a position on protecting the farmland in Sussex County and especially the Highlands water table near Sparta, which is proposed for a mega warehouse that would damage the water table.

Brent Johnson: I don't personally know of either candidate taking a stance on that, but I do know that that is an issue in the state legislature that's come up. Lawmakers from the western and northwestern part of the state have talked more and more about helping farmland in that section of the state. That might be a state issue. You see, I don't know how much of a federal issue it will become, but keep an eye out.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Judith. Sorry, we couldn't give you more of an answer to that. I don't know that that's a US Senate issue necessarily, as opposed to a Trenton issue. Listener texts, talking about Bashaw, he's running in a national party that will take away his own rights as a married gay man. Have you heard him ask that question in the debate this week or at any other time? How can he be a Republican given the way they're positioning themselves on gay marriage?

Brent Johnson: He has been asked about the concern about Supreme Court justices possibly stripping away further rights, including gay marriage and he has said that he believes in freedom and that is why he thinks the Republican Party is the party of freedom and that it's possible to do both things. No, he has not been asked how he could-- I once heard someone say that being a gay Republican is like being a vegetarian butcher. It's something that I'm sure he'll get asked about more. He's repeatedly said that he believes that government should stay out of our homes when it comes to abortion and when it comes to gay marriage.

He's not shy away from that, but he has not reconciled publicly, at least from what I've seen, being a Republican with such a threat, people are saying.

Brian Lehrer: Here's Alam in Queens, but says from New Jersey. Alam, you're on WNYC. Thanks for calling in.

Alam: Hey, how are you doing, Brian? Awesome show.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. What you got?

Alam: My thing is that I feel like nobody's really talking about Israel and Gaza and the Lebanon front anymore. Not people's primary concern, maybe, but there is an 8% uncommitted vote in Jersey, and my whole family was amongst those people because no one's addressing it. No one's talking about it. Attacking a sovereign nation, being Lebanon carrying out a genocide in Gaza. Anyone with a Google search engine can search up war crimes Vienna Convention, all these things.

Brian Lehrer: Let me bring this back to the Senate race, and obviously, people have different sides of that and different points of view about the word genocide and all of that. If there was an 8% uncommitted vote in the presidential primary, that's a Democratic primary, a protest vote against Joe Biden. Is Andy Kim any more perceived as any more friendly, saying anything that would draw that 8% to turn out and vote for him as far as we know?

Brent Johnson: He is also measured on the Israel-Gaza war that Bashaw is 100% pro-Israel. He has stated that Israel was attacked and they have the right to defend themselves. That has been his stance, which is not surprising. That's a similar Republican stance. Kim has been much more measured and says that he wants peace. He wants to find a diplomatic way to solve this issue, that there should be a two-state solution. He has said that this is a very delicate issue. He has a national security background. He worked in national security before he was a congressman.

He believes in a two-state solution that focuses on bringing peace to the region, but he hasn't been vocal one way or the other for one side or the other.

Brian Lehrer: I see there are two additional debates scheduled in this race as we run out of time. When and where will those be?

Brent Johnson: They are coming up at the end of the month. One is October 22nd, I think the other is October 15th. I'm not sure exactly where either will be. I know I will be at both of them. This last one was in Nutley, even though it was sponsored by Ryder University in Lawrenceville. I believe they both will be televised. There's two other chances for candidates to tune in, to see these candidates in progress.

Brian Lehrer: All right, there is a US Senate race in New Jersey with Bob Menendez having vacated that seat this year. Obviously, every Senate race in the country is high stakes right now with control of the Senate so close, and depending on who's elected president, it could be even that more important to have a Senate of the same party or of the opposing party, depending on your politics. Brent Johnson, political reporter for the Statehouse Bureau of The Star-Ledger and nj.com. Thanks so much for walking through this debate and the race in general.

Brent Johnson: Thank you.

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