Title: New York's Sanctuary City Status as Trump's Second Administration Approaches [music]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. With the Trump administration promising mass deportation, you might say it's 2017 again in New York City as well as nationally. It's probably going to be 2017 on steroids. Let's remember something about the first year of the first Trump term. We're about to talk about New York City's sanctuary city law and whether it protects too many dangerous criminals and get two points of view from former Mayor Bill de Blasio and from Republican Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis.

To set this up, I'm going to replay one minute from this show back on March 29th, 2017. Now, that was the first year Trump won and our guest was Malliotakis, who was then in the New York State Legislature and arguing that de Blasio's sanctuary city policy was putting New Yorkers in danger by shielding people committing crimes from deportation proceedings. I played for Malliotakis a clip of de Blasio, who had given his side of the story on the show earlier, and you'll hear that I asked for her response. This starts with the de Blasio clip.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: We, by city law passed in the last few years, have been cooperating with Department of Homeland Security regarding individuals who have committed any of 170 different offenses. We've put that list online. It's a public record matter. It's part of the law. There are serious crimes, violent crimes. Anyone who commits one of those crimes and is undocumented, we are fully cooperating and have been for years with Homeland Security.

Brian Lehrer: I think that's the NYPD's position, too, as it tries to build community relationships to prevent crime.

Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis: Well, first of all, I find it shocking that the mayor doesn't think that sexual abuse, grand larceny, drunk driving or patronizing a minor for prostitution are not serious crimes. That's number one because none of those crimes or 447 others that I've identified are on the mayor's list of 170 crimes. He likes to tout this list of 170 crimes. However, sexual abuse, grand larceny, sexual misconduct, forcible touching, none of them are on his list. I've written to the mayor asking him to add some of these crimes that I believe are egregious.

Brian Lehrer: Nicole Malliotakis, then a state legislator, now in Congress. She will be our second guest today. Bill de Blasio is our first guest as here we go again on this issue. In the second Trump term, he's promising the mass deportation effort will be much more intense. Mr. Mayor, always good to have you on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: Hello. Hello.

Brian Lehrer: You heard that exchange from 2017, I think. Would you like to just pick it up from there and recall more of why you crafted the sanctuary city policies that you did when you were mayor, since they're back in the spotlight again?

Mayor Bill de Blasio: Well, Brian, it's good to be back with you. I strive for honesty, so I actually missed the exchange because we were having a little technical issue. Give me a hint and I'll then respond.

Brian Lehrer: Right. We played a clip from 2017 of you on the show saying, basically, the point of Sanctuary city is to get people to cooperate with law enforcement without fear of deportation, and that there was a long list of 170 violent crimes that if people committed, they would not be shielded from ICE from deportation proceedings. Then Malliotakis, then a state legislator, listed a number of crimes that she thought were serious enough to be included, but that were not included, like grand larceny, sexual assault, and a few others that were in the domestic violence, violence against women category.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: Yes. Look, first of all, there was obviously some partisanship in her message. I've always said it's totally appropriate to revisit which offenses should be on the list and to add to the list as needed. We certainly had sexual assault and a very wide variety of violent and serious crimes. I mean, obviously, 170 crimes is pretty extensive. The notion was, as you said, if someone comes here and undocumented, they commit a serious crime, we still believe in due process. That's a fundamental American right for 250 years. After due process, if they're guilty, they need to go. Innocent people are innocent.

What we wanted to avoid exactly, not just for law enforcement, for public hospitals, for schools, a notion that the minute someone who's undocumented believes that any interaction with a city employee, a city official, could lead to deportation, you destroy the entire framework of people participating in the life of our city or looking out for their kids needs at school or for their family at a hospital, whatever it might be.

Let me state the obvious. I wish we had a world in which everyone came here legally, and I think we should be striving for that. I think we should be striving for a much better asylum system and a way for people to come here to make sense. The reality is we have 500,000 or more people in this city who are undocumented and 12 million, whatever it is, in the country. We've got to function as a community. These are members of our community and the vast majority are law abiding. That's why we tried to craft a balance.

I'll tell you something that goes back, I think, to the Koch administration. The notion that NYPD could not be involved in immigration enforcement right out the window would go a lot of the cooperation, the information that officers need to solve crimes and stop crimes. I think for those who are talking about mass deportation, they really misunderstand the human cost and the safety cost that that will have on all of us.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, some form of sanctuary city goes back to the Koch administration. It expanded during your administration. I wonder how well you think, candidly, that the policy has worked specifically to prevent crime, to foster community cooperation with the police by law abiding undocumented immigrants toward that end, which was part of the goal, or has it fallen short in terms of enabling too many dangerous people to stay in the country and commit more crimes than you hoped would be the case?

We see the election result. You can give me your take on it, but it seems like New Yorkers as well as others do feel like there is too much crime being committed by migrants enabled by sanctuary city laws. Even though, as you say, the vast, vast majority of immigrants to this country in any status are law abiding.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: Yes, your question is a necessary one. We need to hear the fact that a lot of people are understandably upset. There's a general sense of insecurity right now in our society, which I think is all about the impact of the pandemic. It's insecurity in terms of crime, in terms of people's household budgets and just the cost of things. Just a general sense of fear and insecurity. Obviously, I believe, unfortunately, Donald Trump and the Republican Party played on that in a very cynical way. That doesn't mean there isn't an underlying reality that people would like to see a border that appears to be sane and orderly and things are being done lawfully.

Anytime someone comes here, and I would say, honestly, especially if they're not documented, I think that's just an honest truth in what people feel. I think if anybody commits a crime, it could be 10 generations American citizens. No one likes anyone who commits a crime, but if someone comes here undocumented, I think it pushes a special button. The question is, one, should we say that out loud and acknowledge it? Yes, we should. Two, is it absolutely acceptable to deport people who are found guilty of major crimes? Absolutely.

Where I think we need to ask the question about safety is, "What did we learn from it?" Well, until the pandemic, crime was going down steadily in New York City. That's a key indicator. Certainly what NYPD folks told me was they felt they were increasingly having cooperation in a broad range of communities, including immigrant communities. That's directly related to the fact that folks knew the NYPD was not an enforcement agent for immigration.

Even when Trump tried some ICE raids, it did not convince undocumented folks that NYPD were part of it. That was really an important distinction. So I do think the policy, broadly has worked, but I also think it's fair to say, "Hey, should we go deeper with more crimes being added to that list?" I think that's perfectly fair, that that's a discussion to have. Then if we decide to add, we add.

Brian Lehrer: Do you have any in mind?

Mayor Bill de Blasio: Again, I would say the 170, I felt very strongly we had really gotten a comprehensive list of violent and serious crimes, but I don't have a specific one. I think it's perfectly fair that someone might say, "Look, here's one that should be considered," because it may be more serious than people originally thought, or it may have other ramifications. I think that's what legislation is all about. You experience things and you add.

I think the underlying notion is, is it right that there's due process? Well, I think it is. I think due process is a fundamental American value. That simply being accused of crime is not the same thing as being found guilty. Also, is it right that if someone is found guilty through due process, that they should be deported? I think the answer is yes. There's a framework. I think it's a very fair framework that can constantly be updated as needed and can say to people who are concerned about safety, rightfully, "Look, if anyone does something wrong, here's what we do about it."

If someone got a parking ticket-- Let's take a really strong example. A undocumented person, I wish they were documented. I really do. I wish the system was better, too. They're undocumented. They're the breadwinner for their family. They're living in the Bronx. They get a parking ticket or they have a minor traffic infraction. Is it right to take that breadwinner and send them back to their home country and split up a family over that? That's where we have to ask the question. What is that line?

Brian Lehrer: Well, the parking ticket is the most benign example, obviously. One other example that's been in the news is this very headline story of the murder of Georgia nursing student Laken Riley. Here's a paragraph from the New York Post this weekend on that. It says, "The revisions," meaning to New York City sanctuary city law under you, "have had serious consequences. Murdered Georgia nursing student Lincoln Riley, who was murdered by an illegal migrant who had been in custody in New York City on child endangerment charges, but set free, might still be alive if the WOKE rules were not in effect. Critics have told the Post." How would you respond to that?

Mayor Bill de Blasio: Well, her murder was horrifying, and the individual involved obviously has been found guilty and is going to pay the price rightfully. I remember at the time the Post and others tried to make this allegation, the NYPD said very clearly that that wasn't accurate. The bottom line is if someone, if someone committed a crime and was arrested, then, obviously, there should be prosecution for that crime. Now, I think we have some other issues to work on in this state that have nothing to do with our city law about who gets bail and who doesn't.

Brian Lehrer: I think Malliotakis would probably argue that if child endangerment were on the list, then that murderer probably would have been referred to ICE, might have been referred to ICE after the child endangerment charge and not around to kill Laken Riley.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: I hear you, but I want to just make sure we're clear about the facts. I believe child endangerment should be on the list. Again, I don't have the 170 offenses in front of me, but I think we should look closely at it because her alleging it's not there is not the same thing as it's not there. If for some reason something needed to be added, it should be 100%.

The other point I'm saying is the NYPD says that that rendition of what happened is not what happened. That's the last I saw that they did not have him custody for that offense. The bottom line is, of course, if someone endangered a child or committed a sexual offense, anything like that, they should be arrested, they should be prosecuted. If they're guilty, they should be deployed, period. It's horrible what happened, but I don't honestly have evidence that it even has anything to do with the NYPD or New York City based on what I've seen from the NYPD.

Brian Lehrer: I want to play a clip of Mayor Adams, who also seems to think the law as enacted during your administration goes too far. Here's the mayor in February.

Mayor Adams: I don't believe people who are violent in our city and commit repeated crimes should have the privilege of being in our city. Some people have a different belief than that. That is my belief. If I had my way of if you are repeatedly committing crimes in our city, like the individual did a serious crime and then got out and went and assaulted and did a robbery, you don't have the right to be in our city and tarnish those overwhelming number who are here following the rules. That is what I believe.

Brian Lehrer: Mayor Adams there, former Mayor de Blasio here as we revisit the sanctuary city policies under his law and their relevance to the coming Trump mass deportation program and new calls to revise sanctuary city, including from Mayor Adams. Your reaction to that, Mr. Mayor? I have a feeling you'll say you don't disagree with anything he said there, but his premise was he thinks that is happening now because of the changes on your watch.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: Yes, again, and I say this respectfully to everyone involved. One Malliotakis says an offense should be added that, again, I'm not clear isn't already there. People say something happened with NYPD that as I understand, didn't happen. The mayor's saying people should be deported if they committed violent or serious crime. That's what the law says. I think the problem here, it's not going to shock you, Brian, is this issue defies thoughtful conversation. It just does. It's been that way for decades and it's sad. Nation of immigrants, city of immigrants, and yet we struggle to have a sane conversation about it.

Actually, even folks on the right, I don't think would disagree with the statement that the vast majority of people here, documented or undocumented, are law abiding and play a crucial role in our economy and are part of our communities. I think what is incumbent upon progressive people, Democrats, is to show that we are serious about safety every single day and to show that we deport people who have committed those crimes. When the current mayor says that, I do agree, but I also would think it would be helpful to say, "That's what our current law says."

Brian Lehrer: We've been talking so far about the sanctuary city policy as it changed when you were mayor. I want to finish in our last few minutes with looking forward to what you think might come, what you might be afraid might come, how you think the city should react to what might come from the second Trump administration with respect to mass deportation. I want to set this up with one more clip of Mayor Adams at his news conference two weeks ago. It seemed like he didn't want to take an unequivocal position against mass deportation. Here's that.

Mayor Adams: There's some New Yorkers, there are people who stop me on the street and says, "I voted for the president and I believe there should be mass deportation." There are people who stop me on the street and say, "I believe there shouldn't be mass deportation." What one needs to do is have the ability to sit people in the room and come up with real solutions. That's what I've been doing for three years.

Brian Lehrer: What's your reaction to that, and on a practical basis, what do you think it signals about Adam's likely cooperation or not with whatever mass deportation effort Trump comes down with?

Mayor Bill de Blasio: Well, I don't hear a particular direction in that. What I think about it broadly, is mass deportation is un-American. Brian, if you really look at our history and our political culture over generations, there's a very strong libertarian impulse in America, both on left and right, and people really, really care about the government not taking away their individual liberties.

The notion of seeing armed agents of the government pulling people out of their houses, pulling people out of their workplaces in large numbers, where are they going to take them? They can't take them to our normal prison facilities. Are we going to have new camps set up to hold people while they're being processed? What does that tell us? What does that look like? How do people feel?

I remember when I went down to Texas when there was a whole crisis with the unaccompanied minors during the Trump administration and people across the spectrum, especially in faith communities, were deeply upset to see these young people held in camps by the border and in conditions that were not appropriate. I think mass deportation is a horrible idea. I think a very pinpointed strategy of saying, "If someone's convicted of a crime, it's a serious crime, they need to go." I agree with 100%. That could be a perfectly fair balance point for a policy going forward.

I do think Trump is going to try and do a lot more deportation than he did last time. Last time was actually pretty minimal compared to what was projected. I think it will backfire because it will appall people across the political spectrum. At first, folks will cheer it on, and then they'll see the human cost and families will be torn apart. A lot of families are citizen and non-citizen mixes. You'll see families unable to have their livelihoods anymore. There'll be a lot of human tragedy. I hate to say that, but I think that's what's going to tell people, "Wait a minute, this is out of hand." I think we'll see that, unfortunately, pretty quickly.

Brian Lehrer: What do you think they're going to do differently than the first Trump administration when you were mayor of the city? Do you think they're going to start showing up at restaurants to look at the delivery workers, at construction sites? How do you think they're going to do this differently from Trump 1 when you were mayor?

Mayor Bill de Blasio: Trump 1 there were many instances of big claims that then were not followed through on or were stymied by the courts or the states. I think we'll certainly see some of that again. I understand people are really worried about future democracy. They should be. I also want to remind people the court system is still functioning. State governments still have a lot of power. Cities have a lot of power. There's no way most of this stuff can be achieved without getting the cooperation of states and cities and a lot are not going to cooperate.

I think there will be a bigger effort at deportation this time for sure than last time. Will it be tens of thousands? Will it be hundreds of thousands? I don't know. If it starts to be anything more than a few tens of thousands, I strongly believe it will start to press real serious buttons in the American people that something is dangerous, something's going far beyond what they might have emotionally wanted. Because what's next? If they can start to go into the restaurant, go into the store, go into someone's home and pull them out and take them away. What's next? I just don't think Americans will tolerate that. They may like the sound of it today. They're not going to like the look of it and the feel of it when it actually happens.

Brian Lehrer: Last question, then. Are you concerned that Mayor Adams might have too much of a conflict of interest with Trump possibly planning to cancel the federal indictment of the mayor. Can he even govern in the interest of the city now if it conflicts with his own criminal defense interest?

Mayor Bill de Blasio: I can't judge that sufficiently. I would say this. People in the city are going to rightfully demand of everyone in city government that they stand up to the Trump administration when they're wrong. Trump administration might do some things that we feel okay about. Like last time with the pandemic, they actually sped the creation of the vaccine. That was a very good thing. I've said that publicly. That's not impossible for an administration I often disagree with to do something okay.

If they affront New York City, if they do things that are absolutely against the interests of New York City, New Yorkers will demand that their leaders hold the Trump administration accountable and fight back. We did that when they tried to take away our security funding over sanctuary city. I think there's going to be a lot of accountability. Obviously, we're going into an election year. That adds to it. I'm not going to comment on his personal situation. I think like any mayor, he will be watched carefully and people will expect him to stand up for New York City.

Brian Lehrer: Former Mayor Bill de Blasio, thank you so much for joining us and talking about this today. Thank you, thank you.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: Thank you. Happy Thanksgiving, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: And to you. Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We will get another view on mass deportation and related issues from Republican Congresswoman from New York City Nicole Malliotakis, right after this.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We just heard from from former Mayor Bill de Blasio, now Staten Island and Brooklyn Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis with her view on the sanctuary city law in New York right now and the mass deportation program that President Elect Trump is saying will come. Congresswoman, always good of you to join us. Welcome back to WNYC. First of all, congratulations on your reelection.

Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis: Well, thank you, Brian. It feels like 2017, just me and Bill again debating these issues that were so tense in our campaign.

Brian Lehrer: Well, that's right. In fact, I started with the former mayor. I don't know if you were listening at the beginning of the segment by replaying one minute of an appearance by you on this show in 2017, the first year of Trump's first term, about sanctuary city. I'm going to replay that one minute again so that we're all on the same page. Make sure you've heard it. This begins with a de Blasio clip that I Played for you at the time.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: We, by city law passed in the last few years, have been cooperating with Department of Homeland Security regarding individuals who have committed any of 170 different offenses. We've put that list online. It's a public record matter. It's part of the law. There are serious crimes, violent crimes. Anyone who commits one of those crimes and is undocumented. We are fully cooperating and have been for years with Homeland Security.

Brian Lehrer: I think that's the NYPD's position too, as it tries to build community relationships to prevent crime.

Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis: Well, first of all, I find it shocking that the mayor doesn't think that sexual abuse, grand larceny, drunk driving or patronizing a minor for prostitution are not serious crimes. That's number one because none of those crimes or 447 others that I've identified are on the mayor's list of 170 crimes. He likes to tout this list of 170 crimes. However, sexual abuse, grand larceny, sexual misconduct, forcible touching, none of them are on his list. I've written to the mayor asking him to add some of these crimes that I believe are egregious.

Brian Lehrer: That again from 2017. Congresswoman Malliotakis with us live now. Is the law the same as it was then as we head into Donald Trump's second term?

Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis: The law is the same. Mayor de Blasio, after my advocacy in the campaign, he did add a number of sex crimes to the list in which they would cooperate. However, if you look at the actual stats from NYPD, you see that they have complied with zero detainer requests. I think they're actually breaking their own laws because they aren't complying with ICE detainer requests and turning individuals who have been arrested for serious violent crimes, including those-- remember those who assaulted our police officers, they were free on the streets, they took a bus, they finally got caught in another state by ICE.

Even Laken Riley's murderer, he was somebody who was arrested here in New York City, was released back onto the streets, then went to Georgia and committed that heinous murder of that young woman. I would say I'm vindicated by what I said in 2017, sadly, because I wish I was wrong, really, because we've seen so many people suffer as a result and even women raped, murdered here in New York City. The 13 year old girl that was raped in Queens, you had the woman under the boardwalk in Coney Island.

Sadly, I was right. I would have preferred to be wrong in that situation, but this really began when Bill de Blasio changed the sanctuary laws to protect people who committed crimes. That really is the difference between him and any other mayor that we had previously. Sadly, Mayor Adams has enforced that. He hasn't thought to change it. I think it would be very difficult for him to do so with this really left wing city council. I urge them to do so, because why should we protect people in the country illegally who are committing these heinous crimes and then on top of it, the taxpayers are paying to house them in hotels to wreak havoc in our city?

Brian Lehrer: The former mayor, when he was on a few minutes ago, said that he believes that the Laken Riley murder, that murderer would not have been detained and referred to ICE under whatever sanctuary city law. He believes that that's being misreported, that there's no relevance between New York City sanctuary city law and the fact that that murderer was free to kill Laken Riley. Do you have chapter and verse on that to refute that?

Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis: Well, look, what I would say is Mayor de Blasio kicked ICE out of Rikers Island. If somebody was arrested for a crime, they would go to Rikers Island and then instead of being released, ICE would have been there to be able to detain that individual and take them into federal custody. Number one, he removed ICE from Rikers Island. That was part of the problem. The second part of the problem is they've cooperated with zero detainer requests. It's not like they're cooperating with some. They were cooperating with zero. That's public information that is available on the NYPD website for everybody to see.

I think the other issue that came into play here with Laken Riley's murderer is New York's bail law. New York's bail law automatically releases people back onto the streets, oftentimes depending on the crime. He probably committed a lower offense. I think it was a robbery offense. He was released onto the streets. That is the problem with our state and city laws that the Democrats have put in place. They leave no discretion, hardly any discretion for judges.

What we've said in many cases, even with American citizens, you have people who commit crimes multiple times, dozens of arrests, and they go back onto the streets. The other day we had a guy who murdered three people in Manhattan. It is a perfect example of how the state bail law comes into play. He, I believe, was an American Citizen, but regardless, the issue is that these laws are in place. That he had, I think, eight arrests and he was still walking on the streets, and he had a mental health issue.

Instead of releasing him onto the street, somebody who's homeless and mentally ill, it would have made more sense to use Kendra's Law to mandate inpatient treatment for this individual and get them the help that they need. I think these laws that have been put in place have failed New Yorkers. How many more people need to be assaulted, robbed, murdered, raped before the Democrats look at what they've done and just simply make changes that are common sense?

Brian Lehrer: I think I hear you criticizing Mayor Adams for how the sanctuary city law is being applied under him. For former Mayor de Blasio, in the last segment, we played a clip of Mayor Adams disagreeing with the de Blasio sanctuary city policy, saying it goes too far. I think I hear you saying, tell me if I'm getting this right, maybe our reporter should ask the mayor this at his news conference today.

I think I hear you saying, even with the sanctuary city law as it exists now, the Adams administration could be referring a lot more people who are convicted of violent crimes that the de Blasio law would have referred to ICE under detainer requests, that the Adams administration isn't even referring those people, even though they could. Is that what you're saying?

Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis: They are not complying with any federal detainer request. The current mayor, has hid behind this sanctuary law put in place place by the de Blasio administration to say that he's following city law, although he believes the city law should be changed. Now, two things. If I were the mayor, number one, I would have issued an executive order saying that this is an emergency and we need to rid our city of people who are here committing these violent crimes.

Then if a group wants to take the city to court, then he should battle it out. He's done the opposite. He's actually done other things like misinterpreting right to shelter and saying that these individuals belong in shelters at taxpayer expense and then forced us, the people who oppose these migrants being housed in shelters, to sue and make our case. That's number one.

The second thing is federal law supersedes city law. He could use the excuse and the reasoning in the legal interpretation that he's complying with federal law. The federal law is making these requests of dangerous people to be removed. In many ways, the current mayor is speaking out of both sides of his mouth. He's saying that he wants to change the sanctuary's law. He does believe that people committing crimes should be removed, but yet he hasn't used, I think, every tool in the toolbox to find a way to get those individuals deported.

Brian Lehrer: How would you change the law at the city level today if you could? Would you keep it in place or issue an executive order, like you were just saying, to make it easier for ICE to get at New Yorkers who have committed crimes or are accused of crimes? Would you keep the parts of the law that make it harder for ICE to get at New Yorkers who are here illegally but are otherwise law abiding? Would you like to see it ended entirely or those aspects of the older generation of the sanctuary city law kept in place?

Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis: Look, as I said when I ran For Mayor in 2017, we should go back to the laws that have been on the books, going back to Ed Koch. You had Ed Koch, you had David Dinkins and Rudy Giuliani, Mayor Bloomberg, they all had the same policy in place. What Mayor de Blasio did was take it to an extreme level and now protect individuals here committing crimes. That is where I think the majority of the New Yorkers crossed-- that's the line. That's the line for them where they're saying, "This is way too much." In practice, they're seeing it played out right. Everything I was saying in 2017 has now come to fruition, unfortunately.

I think that's what the City Council should be doing. They should be repealing that 2014 law that Mayor de Blasio put in place. They should reinstate ICE at Rikers Island, and they should also cooperate with all the federal detainer requests for criminals that are coming into the city of New York. Really, I would say majority of New Yorkers support it. I think that's why you saw President Trump's numbers in New York increase about 15% over the last election, because people have just had enough and they saw the pendulum swing too far to the left.

Brian Lehrer: What do you think the Trump mass deportation program will involve in New York City, specifically how far beyond looking for people with criminal charges or criminal convictions it will go? Mayor de Blasio, in the previous segment, was predicting that they're going to go much further than that, that they're going to go much further than they did during the first Trump administration. They're going to round up a lot of otherwise law abiding undocumented immigrants and then there'll be a big public backlash against it. What do you think is going to happen or should happen?

Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis: Well, I think, and I believe will happen and should happen is that he will be focusing on the people in our city who have committed crimes. That will keep them very busy. That will keep this administration busy. You have to remember we had 10 million gotaways that have come in, in addition to the people who came in and checked themselves in. Among those who have checked themselves in and made themselves known that they were here, in New York City there are thousands of crimes that have been committed by those individuals.

We had the data last year, it was about 2,000 arrests that were made for migrants that were living in the city shelter system at taxpayer expense. That number has to be well over 5,000 arrests. I've tried to get this information from the Mayor Adams administration. I put in a freedom of information law request. He refuses to divulge it and share it with the public. There's zero transparency. What I would say is he will focus on the criminals who are wreaking havoc, these gang members that have taken over cities, stuff like that, the drug traffickers that are poisoning out children.

Brian Lehrer: When former Mayor de Blasio worries, as he did, about a lot of family separation, if they go as aggressively as they might into mixed household families with maybe an undocumented parent, but others who are here legally who have not committed crimes other than their documentation status, that that would become cruel after a certain point. Do you agree with that judgment? If they were to do that.

Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis: If they were going to go after people who have been here for a long time and have not committed a crime, that should not be where the priority is and I don't think that's where it will be. What's cruel is the current system. You have this open border that has allowed millions of people to come in, 10 million of which we don't know who they are, where they are, what their intentions are. We can assume those are the worst of the worst, the real bad, nefarious actors.

Then you have those who even made themselves known, filed an asylum claim and turned out to be gang member in many cases. They're living in our shelters at our expense. They are, I'm sure, frightening to other migrants in the system. They are committing crimes and preying on citizens, robbing them. They've had stabbings, they've even had murders outside a couple of these shelters. Those are the people that I believe this administration is going to focus on. Yes, if you came recently over the southern border, you've been here just very less than a year, you probably would be among those that this Trump administration would prioritize to deport.

The thing is this, you had a two year old girl come over the border the other day. There are 300,000 children that have gone missing. This administration doesn't know where they are. That to me is sad. What's happening to those children? Are they sex trafficked? Child trafficked? We don't know. Slave labor. We have to find those children. Those children who have been separated from their parents should be a priority. We should never incentivize a policy that allows a two year old girl to cross over our border at the hands of the drug cartels, but that's what this administration has done.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, do you agree with what former Mayor de Blasio said should be the larger context for this conversation, that yes, there are recent migrants and even longer standing migrants who've committed criminal acts and we should maybe revisit those policies, kind of acknowledge that. We should also remember that the vast majority of the recent migrants and other undocumented immigrants to the city over time, the vast, vast majority are otherwise law abiding and contribute to this city. We don't paint with too broad a brush that winds up with discrimination or just inaccurate judgments of the contribution of immigration and large scale immigration to this city.

Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis: Well, look, obviously, immigrants play a critical role in our economy, in our country and our society. We are a nation of immigrants and we're a welcoming city. My parents are immigrants. They came to this country. Nobody paid for them to be put in a hotel room. They never committed a crime. They never asked for anything except for an opportunity. We respect immigrants who are hard working and want to contribute to our society and are coming probably from horrible circumstances.

At the same time, we cannot reward and allow a system in which an individual pays a drug cartel $15,000 and they're smuggled over our border. You're enriching these cartels that turn around they make $13 billion a year and then they poison American citizens, they traffic drugs and, by the way, they keep tabs and holds on these individuals. When they are here, many of these migrants are involuntary servitude. They are sex trafficked. We see a lot of that happening in Queens, and they are paying their dues to the cartels. We should never allow, encourage or incentivize that type of system.

Which is why, at the end of the day, what we need to do is secure the border, stop this flow so we can cripple the drug cartels that are profiting off of this. We deport the individuals who are here committing crimes. That should be our priority. Then, yes, we need to modernize our immigration system so we can have a process in place where you're not waiting 10 years to become a United States citizens.

I'll tell you what's so frustrating too immigrant families that I represent. They see how this administration, the Biden administration, has prioritized court dates for the people that are coming over the border at the hands of the drug cartels, and yet their family members and relatives have been pushed to the end of the line. Their court dates are being delayed. That is so unfair. I think that's why President Trump did so well among immigrant groups who see that we have a system here. We need to reward people who come legally, and we cannot allow those to come the wrong way.

Brian Lehrer: Republican Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis, just reelected from her Staten Island and a little bit of Brooklyn district. Before you go, can I get your take briefly on two other things in the transition. First, a first reaction, perhaps, to the president elect last night posting a plan or a threat to impose 25% tariffs on all imports from Mexico and Canada. Skeptics say that'll be inflationary for many kinds of products we import from there because businesses have said that in their earnings report that they will pass those charges on in their prices.

Also in Trump's first term, the critics say there was retaliation against US Exports, largely agricultural products going to Canada in particular, that led the Trump administration to pay billions of tax dollars to farmers to compensate them for their losses. What's your first reaction to this 25% tariff announcement for China-- not China, there was a China aspect of it, too, but particularly this new part is for Canada and Mexico.

Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis: I think what the president is trying to do is leverage tariffs to get cooperation from Mexico and Canada to stop allowing illegal crossings. I think he wants cooperation there. This is more of a position that he's taking right now to try to affect change. Already we've seen the Mexican president respond. Right before I came on, I saw something saying that he was going to stop a caravan coming over toward our border. We need cooperation from these countries in Central and South America. Too many of them are playing a role. In some cases, countries like Nicaragua are benefiting, charging people money to pass through, and they're allowing this illegal migration to happen. I think what he's just simply trying to do is-

Brian Lehrer: This isn't really about economics, but it's about trying to pressure them to stop the flow of undocumented migrants.

Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis: That and the fentanyl as well. Now, with China, it's interesting because President Biden didn't roll back some of the tariffs that President Trump had put in place over this four years. I think with China, maybe more about driving supply chain out of China, knowing for national security reasons that we need to work with friendlier nations and that we need to encourage US Manufacturers and companies to do their business outside of China and where possible, bring the supply chain home.

It's one of my priorities for next year, being a member of the Ways and Means Committee, is on taxation. We need to incentivize manufacturing here, particularly when it comes to medical devices and pharmaceuticals. If COVID taught us anything, it's that. We can't rely on communist China for our medicine. Sadly, 80% of our active pharmaceutical ingredients are manufactured there.

I think it could be more of trying to drive manufacturers out of communist China to friendlier nations near shoring, on shoring where possible. It could be more economics there. Maybe he's trying to get a better deal for us Mexico, Canada agreement that he had put in place. Maybe this is also some economics to it as well. I think the bottom line here is he's trying to effectuate change and trying to get concessions from our neighboring countries.

Brian Lehrer: One last question on one other topic. Office of Management and Budget nominee Russell Vogt, Project 2025 architect, supports impoundment of funds by the president on programs that you and Congress have authorized, but the president doesn't want to spend the money on. Are you, as a member of Congress, willing to give up that power to the executive branch?

Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis: I believe the power of the purse belongs in Congress. It should remain there. We're certainly open to hearing what President Trump would like to accomplish, and in many ways, we are lockstep. At the end of the day, the power of the purse needs to go through Congress and everything needs to be approved by Congress. I've never been a fan of issuing executive orders to send money places. We've had many battles with President Biden over that, but especially when it comes to revenue trade spending, that has to really be approved by the House of Representatives and that's how our constitution determined it.

Brian Lehrer: Nicole Malliotakis, Republican congresswoman, now elected once again from Staten Island and that part of South Brooklyn that's in her district as well. Thank you very much for joining us.

Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis: Thank you, Brian.

 

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