Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. The federal government shutdown entered its second week this morning. The latest developments include increasing air travel delays. You've been hearing about this, maybe you've been experiencing this. With air traffic controllers not getting paid, and increasingly calling out sick. Newark Airport is among those affected the most.

We will talk to New Jersey Senator Cory Booker in just a minute, but here's another development that adds a new dimension compared to previous government shutdowns. Usually, those essential workers like air traffic controllers who don't get paid, but are required to work during a shutdown, get their back pay once the shutdown ends, but President Trump says, maybe this time they won't listen.

President Trump: I would say, it depends on who we're talking about. I can tell you this, the Democrats have put a lot of people in great risk and jeopardy, but it really depends on who you're talking about, but for the most part, we're going to take care of our people. There are some people that really don't deserve to be taken care of, and we'll take care of them in a different way.

Brian Lehrer: With that as prelude, New Jersey Senator Cory Booker may be still recovering from his 25-hour floor speech six months ago, who knows, joins us. Senator, always good of you to come on for your New Jersey constituents, and those other Americans eavesdropping on our national podcast version. Welcome back to WNYC.

Cory Booker: Brian, you know, I'm a fan of the show, and I'm really grateful to be back on. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, and listeners in New Jersey or anywhere else, your questions, comments, stories, welcome for Senator Cory Booker on any relevant issue. 212-433-WNYC. Any air traffic controllers who work out of Newark listening right now, or anyone else, 212-433-9692, call or text. Senator, I'll play a clip in a minute of Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy, who, of course, came to Newark Airport to address the problem there, but give us your take first. How's Newark Airport?

Cory Booker: Well, we have an incredibly strong and growing airport that would be fine, if it wasn't for Donald Trump, who has said very bluntly, I mean, he's the guy that does not hide what his intentions are. He says, "I'm going to inflict maximum pain," quote, unquote, on Americans until he gets his way in this standoff over rising healthcare costs, and so it's very frustrating to me that we have a really dedicated operations, dedicated people to the operations of Newark Airport that continue to be undermined by this administration who is not principally concerned with Americans' transportation, the smoothness of their travel, the safety and security of their persons, as well as their communities.

This is a very frustrating thing for me, and for all of us in the Jersey, New York area for him to target, for example, the $18-billion tunnel project that I've worked a decade of my life to get going that will employ thousands and thousands of folks. It's the most important economic corridor in all of America. For Donald Trump to be targeting our airports, our transportation systems, our tunnels, is pretty outrageous.

Brian Lehrer: Well, since you brought up the Gateway Tunnel project, we'll get back to the airport in a minute. I'll ask you about that, some of our listeners know it's another shutdown related New Jersey transportation related issue. It's the Gateway Tunnel project for better train service to and from Manhattan. It affects New Yorkers too. Office of Management and Budget Director Russell Vought, I have this quote, issued a statement that said, the shutdown is delaying the investigation that they've undertaken. That's intended, quote, "To ensure funding is not flowing based on unconstitutional DEI principles. To ensure funding is not flowing to the Gateway Tunnel project based on unconstitutional DEI principles." Do you understand what in the construction process he's calling, or suspecting might be unconstitutional DEI principles?

Cory Booker: I mean, it's a lie. There's nothing unconstitutional about what's been going on, and by the way, this was a project that Donald Trump praised and supported in his first term. This is a political targeting. It has nothing to do with substance. This is something that Republicans in our region, Democrats in our region, in a bipartisan way, our Congressional delegations, our bipartisan have worked together to get done.

It is the most important infrastructure project in all of North America, because 20% of our national economy is dependent upon the smooth flow of people, as well as freight and more through that region, and so this is the absurd thing about-- The Trump administration that has really been known for corruption, chaos, and very much so cruelty, is that Donald Trump is using his office to decide who gets punished, and who doesn't, based upon the most flimsy of arguments.

This is why from law firms, to private businesses, to universities, he is unleashing a politics of the personal that is more like an authoritarian dictator, than it is somebody who is responsible for the well-functioning, smooth travel, economic well-being of Americans. The way he violates the law, and then claims to say he is following it, is just to me an absurd jujitsu move that's just not going to work.

Brian Lehrer: There are many examples of Trump saying explicitly that he's going after people who he considers his political enemies, but on the issue that they're raising regarding this, how far do you think they're going in general with this, what they call unconstitutional DEI principles? You know they're going after DEI in general. Is it, in the case of Gateway Tunnel, any outreach to women and minority-owned contractors, or awarding contracts to them over possibly better qualified, or lower bidding white male-run companies, or what standard are they actually using that may affect who actually gets business in New Jersey or anywhere else?

Cory Booker: I mean, this is the absurdity of Donald Trump, in trying to persecute who he decides in an arbitrary, and capricious manner, who's in his crosshairs. He wants to hurt New Yorkers and New Jerseyans. He wants to hurt us, our entire state. He's targeting programs, withholding millions of dollars of grants for public safety grants, to healthcare grants, to grants to deal with people with substance abuse.

He has frozen millions and millions of dollars, and now he's attacking this under this, frankly, lie that somehow we're undermining constitutional principles of fairness and equality. When it comes to bidding in our region, you want to get as wide of an aperture for competitive bids as possible, and we are a region of great diversity. I'm proud, frankly, of everybody from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, to even this project on how they're trying to make sure it's as inclusive as possible of our entire region, our economy, to get the best bids for taxpayer dollars.

We cannot let Donald Trump try to trigger people, or distract people from what he is really doing, from health care, to energy costs from our offshore wind projects that will lower our energy bills, to the rising grocery prices, to the tariffs that are creating for many of our small businesses. As one told me in New Jersey, an extinction-level event for their businesses. Donald Trump continues to target our region, continues to target our state, and it is something that all New Jerseyans, Republicans, Democrats and Independents, should be outraged by.

Brian Lehrer: He said at the beginning of the shutdown that he after Democratic agencies for possible permanent layoffs, or permanent reductions in service. Do you see that?

Cory Booker: Well, first of all, he doesn't need a shutdown excuse to do it. He already emptied out the Department of Education, for example, that's costing New Jersey schools in red towns and blue towns, red voting towns and blue voting towns, thousands and thousands of dollars in terms of grants to help kids with special needs, children with autism. He's already attacked the Social Security Agency that's making customer service for my seniors get dramatically worse.

He's already attacked the Veterans Administration that's making veteran services. In fact, laying off the veterans that often provide those veteran services. Donald Trump is taking his chainsaw to American government, and to do that, really to enrich the wealthiest of people in our nation, and this is why this is not effective, and you know this, Brian, from my mayoral days.

I, in a recession, had to cut the size of Newark's government by 25%. Most of our departments and agencies amidst those difficult days actually got more efficient and more effective. That's what we should be trying to do, is to make sure customer service is strong, but Donald Trump is not interested in running good government. He's interested in slashing everything. He said that in his project 2025. He wants to go after people's health care, wants to go after the Affordable Care Act, and wants to go after agencies that he deems as Democrat, when really, Congress, in a bipartisan manner, has been funding them for decades.

Brian Lehrer: Let's get back to air travel and air safety during the shutdown. Here's Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy at Newark Airport after acknowledging that there was already a structural problem with a shortage of air traffic controllers before the government shutdown.

Secretary Sean Duffy: We have a lot of training facilities across the country, but the support staff that train those controllers when they're through the academy, are at risk of being laid off, and so what this can do, as we're trying to bring more air traffic controllers into the system, so we have less delays, less cancellations, it's more challenging to get those students through the academy, but then also trained up in facilities like right here in Newark, so these can have longer lasting impacts at a time when we're trying to supercharge.

This shutdown makes it more challenging for us to actually do our jobs. Again, this doesn't just end after the Democrats decide to open up the government. It has a longer lasting impact on our ability to make up the ground, and the shortages that we have right now with air traffic controllers.

Brian Lehrer: Senator, your reaction to that, both the implications for air traffic problems lasting beyond the shutdown, and also his placing the blame for the shutdown on your party?

Cory Booker: Yes. Well, let's just start with the absurdity that Donald Trump and Republicans control the White House, they control the Senate, they control the House of Representatives, they're running the administration, and Donald Trump, by his own words, this is his quote, he said it is on the President of the United States to bring parties together and get budgets passed, and so he has the trifecta. He has the power. It is him that is causing this shutdown, because he is responsible for bringing forward a budget that can get through the House and the Senate, and to his desk. Right now--[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Well, the Senate Republicans are saying, they have a clean meaning, just extend the current budget through November 21st, while you negotiate over the main issue that the Democrats are raising, which is health care cuts. Why not do that?

Cory Booker: Well, again, you know that this is what they were saying six months ago, that they just wanted a, "Clean CR," and it wasn't a clean CR. Donald Trump has used every mechanism he can find to undermine the Congressional power that we have, so this is not just something that'll give us another week. We've been going at this for over six months, waiting for them to come to the table, and actually get a budget passed in the way that it was passed for four years.

No shutdown under President Biden, because we always came together, and worked out bipartisan deals. What Donald Trump and Congressional Republicans are saying is, "It's our way or the highway. We're not going to compromise. We're not going to give an inch." We're not going to do anything to help Americans with the problems that Democrats are pointing out, is that we have a health care tsunami about to hit our country.

Of the twin problems that they've created, one is the attacks on Medicaid that hit next year, and the other one is that the Affordable Care Act will be gutted by the ends of these subsidies. Those two things together will mean people in our region, by the millions, will be affected. They're seeing their premiums going up, millions of people in our country losing their health care, and what that means for all of us, even if you get your health care through your private employer, your premiums will go up, and our hospitals are going to be crushed.

I've talked to board members for hospitals up and down New Jersey, many of them Republicans, that say, "You can't let this happen. We'll have to cut services." There'll be longer wait lines at hospital emergency rooms, because people without insurance will be using those emergency rooms as their primary care physicians, so we are standing strong on this simple thing. You control everything. If you want to get a budget done, do it like we've done it the last years, in a bipartisan manner. We know we're not going to get everything, but we're fighting to lower people's health care costs. Come to the table, and work with us on that.

Brian Lehrer: Let me give you the Republicans' response to that, and get your response to that, and then we'll take some calls from Judith and Morristown. You will be first and some others. They say they're just returning the amount of Obamacare premium subsidy back to the pre-pandemic rates that the enhanced pandemic subsidies were put in as temporary, so they expire at the end of this year.

The pandemic emergency is not going on anymore. COVID is still with us, but not the pandemic. They argue why make that temporary subsidy permanent under those circumstances, and they also argue that it's an issue of immigrants here illegally being eligible for those subsidies, and they won't pass an extension with that. Your response?

Cory Booker: Well, first of all, by law, immigrants cannot qualify for those subsidies by law--[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: You mean undocumented?

Cory Booker: The undocumented immigrants can't qualify for those subsidies. By law, undocumented immigrants don't qualify for Medicaid by law, so that's a lie. Number two is a more important thing. I've been up and down New Jersey. I talked to New Jerseyans yesterday, who are telling me their stories. A New Jerseyan family of four making around $70,000 a year will see their premiums go up over 200%.

These are costs on top of the costs that are already going up, because of Donald Trump's tariffs at the grocery store, energy costs already going up, because he's canceling energy projects in New Jersey, fuel costs going up and more. This is about helping the American people. This is about being there when people are really struggling and suffering. New Jerseyans are really in a crisis right now.

They have a president that promised to lower costs on day one, and here we are more than 10 months into his administration, and costs on just about everything have been skyrocketing, but nobody, never before in our country have we seen what's going to happen in a matter of months with their attacks on health care. More Americans than ever before will lose their health coverage. Millions upon millions, and most Americans will see their premiums go up, as families already, about 60% of Americans already can't afford a $500 hit to their family budgets without having to go into credit card debt or worse. This is a crisis, and that Republicans should come to the table, and work with us in addressing it.

Brian Lehrer: They say there have been preexisting structural problems with Obamacare that's been pushing up the price of the premiums for years, including a lot of things that have to be included, requirements for what's covered in those policies that make them more expensive than they need to be for individuals who may want a slimmer version. What's your response to that?

Cory Booker: This is the party that their signature legislation, the Big so-called Beautiful Bill just gave billions and billions of dollars of tax giveaways to the wealthiest Americans. Don't tell me we don't have the capacity to help that family of that firefighter married to a teacher, who's going to see their family bills go up by the thousands of dollars that we can't help them. This is a lie.

Donald Trump is standing for the very same people as I was sitting in the front row watching him get sworn in, and he had a collection of billionaires around him. He is not working for New Jerseyans and New Yorkers. He has shown who he prioritizes. He's shown he's been able to shovel out billions of dollars to the wealthiest, yet he is screwing the everyday New Jerseyan.

The stories I am hearing every day of the fear, of the reality. I talked to a mom yesterday who has an autistic child, who she had to leave her job, because the health-- Their costs, the caregiving costs were too high. Now, she does part time work. Her income is down to about $30,000 a year. If those subsidies go up as much as they will in January, she will not be able to make ends meet. and keep a roof over the head.

This is a real crisis affecting real Americans. We have the capacity to do something about it. The Washington DC gobbledygook that Republicans are trying to hide behind, does not solve the problems of real Americans who are struggling. That's all we're asking. Come to the table and negotiate with us to help folks out.

Brian Lehrer: We just got a call from a listener with a story about exactly this, the Obamacare premiums, so I'm going to ask Judith in Morristown, who I said would be the first caller for Senator Cory Booker to hang on just another minute. You're going to be second. Nicole in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with New Jersey Senator Cory Booker. Hello, Nicole.

Nicole: Hi. Thank you so much for talking about this. I am grateful to you.

Brian Lehrer: Oops, we lost you--

Nicole: I'm a carer for years myself and-

Brian Lehrer: There you go.

Nicole: -my family. I can tell you that even before COVID, I just found out that our premiums are going to go up $450 per person, so that's four of us. We will be paying $2,000 a month minimum for our insurance. Even before COVID, we never had premiums even close to that. I work 50 hours a week. I don't have health insurance through my job. My son's in school. It's Just how are we supposed to afford this?

The lies, I can't take another minute of the Republicans standing on television lying about, average Americans aren't going to lose insurance, and they're improving insurance. I mean, I'm here to tell you my family is facing a $2,000-a-month health care bill. A hardworking-- This is not about Medicaid. This is about working people whose insurance will increase, and I don't know why the Republicans continue to lie, and I see people online regurgitating those lies on a daily basis, saying this is only Medicaid. This is undocumented people. This is not true, so please continue, Democrats, to hold on, and don't cave into this, because I don't know how my family's going to get through it. I really don't.

Brian Lehrer: Nicole, thank you very much, and by the way, many Medicaid recipients are also hardworking, and make little enough money to qualify for Medicaid, but that's another topic, but I think no response necessary to that caller, because you're just going to agree with her. Judith in Morristown, you're on WNYC. Hi, Judith.

Judith: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. I mean, we all know the destruction that Trump is doing. He's destroying the country and the people in it, and when you watch those scenes from Chicago, it does look like the war zone that he had described before they went in. This isn't something that we do here. What I don't understand, and maybe it's my naivete, I understand that the Democrats are trying in the traditional process to work the system.

He does not deal traditionally. I don't understand why he's still allowed to be there, and to behave like this, and he literally is a murderer, and he literally gets away with everything. What is the Congress and the Democrats doing, not talking about getting him out of there? That's the only way for us to move forward.

Brian Lehrer: I have to say, to say he's literally a murderer. I don't think, Senator, you even want to go there, but Judith reflects a dissatisfaction with the Democratic party that I know you've heard a lot. What do you say to her?

Cory Booker: I have to say, the only way we stop him is by more of us standing up, and speaking out. It is the only way to stop him. The last time he tried to take away the Affordable Care Act, thousands and thousands, hundreds of thousands of people came out to protest. I remember some of the most inspiring people I've met in my time in the Senate, so called little lobbyists, young children with disabilities who came down here, and non-violently protested, spoke to senators, let them see the real impact of what they're doing.

We are going to do everything I can, and I'm a creative guy. I've done a sit-in on the Capitol steps, I stood for 25 hours. I'll try to find every creative way to stand up and lead by example, but we have to understand that the power of the people is greater than the people in power, if we use our power. There's a No Kings rally coming up later this month. That's a time for us to start to show that more and more people are coming out, and I'm already starting to see cracks in his dam, the dam that's holding back justice.

I'm seeing cracks, because, even on the issues that he had high approvals when he came in, like immigration and the economy, he is now under water, because Americans of all political backgrounds reject what he's doing, so we just need more people to join us in condemning what's happening, because I'm already seeing it down here, and him changing his tune with, "Oh, we're going to do something about your health care." They're false promises, but he can't ignore the problems he's creating.

Brian Lehrer: A follow up on that, though. I mentioned in the intro that it's been six months since your 25-hour Senate floor speech, the longest in US history, pegged to what you described at that time as, quote, "The Trump administration's reckless actions, attempts to undermine our institutions, and disregard for the rule of law," unquote. Where's the next galvanizing moment like that coming from for people in your party?

A lot of Democrats are calling or texting with versions of that. I don't know that anyone is using the shutdown, or they don't think anyone is using the shutdown to inspire anyone in that way, and that hanging it on just Obamacare subsidies is too narrow. We have one listener who texts, "It's time to call for a general strike."

Cory Booker: First of all, I'm a son of Civil Rights activists. There were galvanizing moments, whether it's the Edmund Pettus Bridge, or tragic moments like four girls dying in a church bombing, but there was everyday work foot soldiers for the cause during those days who may not have dominated spotlights, but were out there getting the work done that built a movement that was successful in passing major legislation.

We all have to see ourselves as foot soldiers in this movement. We all have to say that, "Nothing will change unless I do. I can't do the same thing I did last year or even last month. What more can we do?" I will continue to find ways, and I tell my staff all the time, "This is not business unusual. We're going to be doing different things." We have scheduled a lot of what I hope will be things that can help inspire, engage, and activate people, but we all have to take this responsibility because, yes, I would never use rhetoric like calling Donald Trump a murderer, but when you do things to take away health care from people, we know that when health care coverage goes down, preventable deaths in our country go up.

This is a life or death situation for many Americans, and look, I live in Newark, where our asthma rates are four times higher than the suburbs. When Donald Trump relaxes the pollution rules, rules that stop big corporations from polluting, and allows them to put more of these toxins in our air, people with fragility like emphysema or asthma suffer a lot more.

This is about our neighbors. This is about people. You may not be being directly affected by what Donald Trump is doing, but when he is violating our values, when he's raiding our communities with masked men jumping out of unmarked cars, dragging people out of churches and court visits, understand this, an assault on basic fundamental constitutional rights anywhere is a threat to all of our constitutional rights everywhere.

Brian Lehrer: A couple of, I presume, Republican-leaning callers, listeners are chiming in with a follow up on your statement that undocumented immigrants already don't qualify for Obamacare subsidies. One listener writes, "Yes, by law Medicaid should not cover non-citizens, but several states have carved out money to cover them, and the Democrat bill is trying to put that back into the budget that the One Big Beautiful Bill removed," writes that listener. Fair?

Cory Booker: I mean this-- No, absolutely not, and this is what we have about fractured media that lies can run around this country, and the truth does not get even heard by many people in their certain social media bubbles. That is absolutely not true. If anything, they're trying to make a tenuous connection to a Reagan law that simply says when somebody comes into a hospital bleeding out, you do not ask them for proof of citizenship. This is a Reagan law.

There is nothing in the work that we're doing that is asking for undocumented people to be covered. We are talking about people like Nicole who called in from Brooklyn, who are facing a moment of painful, unimaginable crisis for their families that their health insurance is going to go up by hundreds if not thousands of dollars, and they will fall off health insurance, and you know what that's going to do to our hospital emergency rooms? You know what that's going to do to the institutions we're already seeing in many states, clinics closing because of this tsunami of Trump's creation, so I'm sorry, don't be distracted by Donald Trump's lies. He's the most lying president we have had. That is a proven fact.

Brian Lehrer: We have three minutes left. I want to get two more questions in here. One from a listener, "Can you ask if Senator Booker has plans to visit Delaney Hall to hear the stories of the detainees and their families. It would mean much to the families and volunteers, and it would make an important statement about the injustices of this immigration system. Of course, that's where Mayor Baraka, Congresswoman McIver got arrested.

Cory Booker: Yes. We are very focused on Delaney Hall, and very focused on the treatment of undocumented immigrants in our country. It's a reflection of our values, and so again, if there's a specific listener, please reach out to our office, learn more about what we're doing, the activists that we're working with to try to get justice for anybody in our country, even Republican appointed Supreme Court justices talk about the due process rights of undocumented immigrants in our country.

Brian Lehrer: Last thing, you'd be up for reelection next year, if I have my math right. 2026.

Cory Booker: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: In those crucial midterm elections. Do you still want this job?

Cory Booker: God. Thank you, New Jersey. It's literally the greatest job I've had. I feel very blessed. You all put me in the arena to fight. I've set a record for the most money of any senator in a six-year period, bringing back to the state of New Jersey, hard earned tax dollars that we're bringing back to invest in our infrastructure, our health care systems, and our local police. I love this job. I'm fighting hard for Jersey, and I hope that a year from now, folks will reelect me to another term.

Brian Lehrer: Senator Cory Booker, thank you very much for joining us today.

Cory Booker: Thank you so much, Brian. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Much more to come.

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