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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Hope you had a great holiday weekend, and thank you to those of you who worked the holiday weekend—as I always like to say, so other people can play, you were at work. Thank you. On today's show, we will have the final chapter of our year-long WNYC Centennial series, 100 Years of 100 Things. It's thing number 100: 100 Years of You. No professional historians, no other experts, as we've had through the series. This episode is for you, our listeners and participants, our beloved community. We will invite you to answer two questions.

This will come later, but keep it in mind. Start thinking about it: Name one way that you are similar to or different from your grandparents, as we invite this personal take on a 100-year arc of history. In addition to one way that you are similar to or different from your grandparents, as a bonus question, if you choose, we'll invite you to tell us one funny family story that you were part of or that's been handed down from any time in the last 100 years. One funny family story. That's coming up, 100 Years of You, later in the show, Chapter number 100 of 100.

Meanwhile, there is so much local and national politics to discuss. We were on tape for the holiday on Thursday and Friday, so we haven't talked yet about the passage of the so-called one Big Beautiful Bill and its implications for various things. We haven't talked about Senator Kirsten Gillibrand apologizing to Democratic mayoral nominee Zohran Mamdani for something false about him that she said on this show. We haven't talked about the Texas flooding, and besides, the human tragedy of about 80 people is the last number I've seen; 80 people believed to have been killed, including all those girls at a summer camp. Oh my goodness.

Besides the tragedy, there are the suspicions that federal funding cuts to the National Weather Service may have contributed to the failure to warn people in time to evacuate, though in fairness that hasn't been proven as of now. That's a topic of conversation. One other thing about the national reaction to Assemblyman Mamdani winning the New York City mayoral primary with his background as an Indian, Ugandan, naturalized US Citizen, as well as his being Muslim and a Democratic socialist.

The deputy White House chief of staff, Stephen Miller, ardently anti-immigration, as many of you know, actually posted this on X: "New York City is the clearest morning yet of what happens to a society when it fails to control migration." If your ears just perked up, if your eyes just started bugging out of your head, I'll read it again. "New York City is the clearest morning yet of what happens to a society when it fails to control migration." That's one of those saying the quiet part out loud things, right?

They say they're not against immigration, they're just against illegal immigration, but when there's a big turnout of new populations, like South Asian Americans who are US citizen legal voters and turned out more than in previous New York City elections-- Remember, Stephen Miller was not alleging voter fraud. It's not about that kind of thing. He issues that post, which kind of acknowledges they just don't want a lot of legal immigrants here who can vote and have children who grew up to vote. Just acknowledging that very revealing tweet.

With all of that as prelude, we welcome Susan Page, USA Today Washington bureau chief and author of books about Barbara Bush, Nancy Pelosi, and her latest, The Rulebreaker: The Life and Times of Barbara Walters. Susan, always good of you to come on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Susan Page: Brian, it's too bad we don't have much news to talk about this morning.

Brian Lehrer: Nothing after a holiday weekend. It's just typically, Monday after holiday weekend, slow. Does that Stephen Miller post surprise you or say anything about what the mass deportation and closing the border is really about, in addition to what we'll acknowledge is real to some degree, cracking down on criminals who are here illegally and people who cross without legal status?

Susan Page: I think that the New York mayor's race has become this kind of Rorschach test for American politics. It's gotten enormous attention. It will have huge repercussions for the Democratic Party, which is still figuring out as a group what to do, they're divided about it, and for Republicans, too. Because as you say, the Stephen Miller quote, and have no doubt, Stephen Miller is now one of the most powerful people in the country. It does say that he has a different vision of what the United States ought to be than a lot of other Americans have.

Brian Lehrer: It's not just Republicans putting forth an anti-Mamdani front. Negative reactions to Mamdani's primary win are coming to some degree from both sides of the aisle. This show, for better or worse, made national headlines this week. Last week. It was actually-- Let's see, Thursday, the week before last, when New York Senator Kirsten Gillibrand said this on our show.

Senator Kirsten Gillibrand: They are alarmed by past positions, particularly references to global jihad. This is a very serious issue because people that glorify the slaughter of Jews create fear in our communities.

Brian Lehrer: We see now that Senator Gillibrand, after I had said on the show I can't see any reference to Mr. Mamdani ever supporting global jihad or glorifying the slaughter of Jews, there were protests outside of her New York City office after that appearance. Late last week, when we weren't doing a live show, Gillibrand issued an apology to Mamdani over the phone. Is there anything you can tell us about that? Are you covering that as a national story, not just a New York one?

Susan Page: I think that you know more about that than I do. Congratulations on having a must-listen to show in New York politics. Gillibrand's comments, they do reflect concern in the Democratic Party about Mamdani's positions on Gaza, because while there's no record of him saying the outrageous things that Gillibrand suggested, he does refer to Gaza as a genocide, and has not backed away from that position.

That's an issue that has become pretty fraught for Democrats and in this country. I think it's a sign of kind of the sensitivity around this. Mamdani has, in some ways, done a remarkable and positive thing for Democrats. He got Democratic voters to show up to vote for him. He's had a campaign that has had energy and a kind of cheerfulness that we don't always see in our politics. He's also made a lot of Democrats pretty nervous.

Brian Lehrer: We see, for example, at least two members of Congress from the immediate New York City area, Tom Suozzi, Democrat from Queens and Long island, comparing Mamdani's appeal to Donald Trump's representative. Laura Gillen, another Democratic member of Congress from Long Island, unlike Suozzi, no overlap into actually part of the city, but still just outside the city, so she must feel that this is in her interest for her own reelection bid coming next year.

She released a statement saying socialist Iran Mamdani is too extreme to lead New York City. Then there are even Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer, so far not endorsing Mamdani, despite him winning the nomination of the party in their home city. In, again, national political terms, especially when it comes to Jeffries and Schumer, who are officially the national leaders of the Democrats in the House and the Senate, why is Mamdani invoking such ire or caution?

Susan Page: Because he's a Democratic socialist with very progressive views. You mentioned that a Long Island member of Congress who doesn't have part of the city in their district was talking about him. Democrats running for office in Kansas and in Wyoming and in Arizona are going to be asked if they agree with the Democratic nominee for mayor of New York. It's not going to be limited just to those in the city and close to the city. It goes to the debate, the quite unsettled debate about, what should Democrats do in an era of Trump?

Are they better off going after moderate voters and trying to figure out his appeal to men, or are they better off trying to strike out with bold new positions, even ones that are going to cause some controversy, in an effort to generate support and move to a new generation of politics? That is a debate that is not yet centered, and the New York mayor's race is going to be right in the middle of it.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, our phones are open for anything on really any national politics from the past week. It can be Gillibrand and Mamdani related or Chuck Schumer and Tom Suozzi and Hakeem Jeffries and Laura Gillen and Mamdani related, or it can be on other things, anything regarding the so-called one Big Beautiful Bill. We're going to get into that. Stephen Miller, Alligator Alcatraz, as we go back to other aspects of the immigration debate and policymaking or whatever. 212-433-WNYC. Even the palace intrigue, which might have policy implications, of Trump versus Musk exploding onto yet another level in recent days. Trump versus Musk, Musk versus Trump. 212-433-WNYC for Susan Page, Washington Bureau Chief for USA Today. 212-433-9692. Call or shoot us a text.

Going back to the topic of Stephen Miller and immigration. Susan, one of the major outcomes of the Big Beautiful Bill is increased spending for Immigration and Customs Enforcement, a stat from Newsweek. Under the bill, ICE will receive $45 billion to expand its detention capacity to nearly 100,000 beds, 14 billion for transportation and removals, 8 billion to hire 10,000 new deportation officers, and billions more for state and local cooperation programs, technology upgrades, and incentives to retain ICE personnel. What's the justification for the outsized budget increases given that they're also cutting what is estimated to be millions of people off Medicare and SNAP food benefits?

Susan Page: You do see the administration's priorities here and Republican priorities, $100 billion in this bill for ICE. That makes it the largest federal law enforcement agency that exists. That clearly reflects Trump's promise to go aggressively after people who are here illegally who don't have the documentation to be here. That he has been disappointed that driving up big numbers of immigrants being deported, that's been hard to do. This huge investment of money is going to facilitate that goal that has really been at the core of his political appeal from the start, from when in 2015, he announced that he was running for president.

You do see the priority of fighting illegal immigration, the disregard for deficits, a traditional Republican position thrown out the window, this would increase the deficit over 10 years by $3.3 trillion, and a willingness to go after social safety net programs in a way we never have before. The biggest cuts ever in social safety net programs, including an estimated 12 million people losing their Medicaid coverage, cuts in food stamps and the other big savings items, cuts in the green energy credits that President Biden helped enact. This bill is the guts of Trump's domestic policy. If he passes not another bill in this term, this will stand as a big part of a continuing legacy of his tenure here in this second term.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a text that just came in regarding people like Schumer and Jeffries not jumping to endorse their party's nominee for mayor. Listener writes, "OMG, these standard Democrats have zero street cred. The fact that they don't like him doesn't even matter. Read the room." I wonder what your reaction to that is, Susan, from a national politics standpoint. In what way does it matter what Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries think, if you think it does?

Susan Page: It should matter because they're the top ranking Democrats in the country now. It matters less than you would think because they have no base of power and because, like the rest of the national party, they're struggling to figure out what to do. You saw Hakeem Jeffries break the record for longest speech on the House floor, a record that we saw set by Nancy Pelosi and then broken by Kevin McCarthy.

Each time this has been broken by a minority leader, and each time it has not only shown the power of the leader to command the floor, but the weakness of the minority party to do anything else but hold the floor and talk for eight or nine hours and then turn it back over to the other party to pass the bill that they wanted to pass. That is the possibility of Mamdani's candidacy, that he gets Democrats out of this funk that they've been in and shows at least some way forward that gets enthusiasm going again for the Democratic Party, which they are really sorely lacking at this point.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a call right on this topic. Romel in Montclair, you're on wnyc. Hi, Romel.

Romel: Hi, Brian. I just want to say that with the Democrats, it's just like it's Bernie Sanders. It's like Kamala Harris all over again. The voters choose somebody they like and all of a sudden the Democratic establishment's like, "Oh, not that guy. Just kidding. You guys can't have that guy." It's really disappointing and it's really hard to be a Democrat with a party like that.

Brian Lehrer: Ramel, thank you very much. One of the reasons that Kamala Harris lost last year, Susan, you'll put this in maybe more national context than I'm about to, is low turnout among people who voted for Joe Biden in 2020. We certainly saw that in New Jersey, for example, where Kamala Harris won. Trump didn't win, but he came much closer than he did in 2020, not so much because more people voted for Trump than in 2020, but because hundreds of thousands of fewer Democrats showed up to vote at all.

Maybe it's a similar thing in New York in the city itself, though to a slightly lesser degree than New Jersey. One of the main reasons that Mamdani won the nomination is because turnout increased, including a lot of first-time voters, the people who Stephen Miller didn't like to see coming out, apparently. Are there national implications to this? Is there a national positive model besides the caution regarding embracing Mamdani that you were talking about on the part of national Democratic leaders because they're afraid of a backlash? Is there something that they can take from this as a lesson for turnout for other races around the country, or does the very diverse population of New York City make it a unicorn?

Susan Page: You know more about New York politics than I do. It looked to me like the reason that Mamdani won was because he talked about issues that affected people's daily lives. He talked about the cost of living in New York and the availability of affordable housing in New York and the availability of jobs in New York and making the city livable for people who are not billionaires. That kitchen table argument is one that translates nationwide.

I think that we have seen in some of these special elections that we've had in the country since last November's election is that people care about their own lives, not the politicians' lives, and they care about the things that are squeezing them, like inflation and the cost of housing. That was a chord that he struck very, very effectively. Whatever you think about his position on Gaza, Democrats nationwide might well look at his economic messaging in this campaign.

Brian Lehrer: One more on Mamdani and the national implications, and with a different point of view than the previous caller. Ralph in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Ralph.

Ralph: Yes, hi. What I see is problem, Gillibrand misspoke with the jihad reference, but she's right that he hasn't really sufficiently distanced himself from the intifada kind of sloganeering, because intifada is a very scary kind of word. It did undermine the peace process in the 2000s with suicide bombings and the like. Also, I think that, rightly or wrongly, Mamdani's candidacy is going to burden Democrats nationally because he comes across as extreme. He isn't all that extreme to me, and I still have to decide whether I'm going to vote for him or not. To most people now, it's very easy for Trump and the Republicans to demonize him.

Brian Lehrer: Ralph, thank you very much. That was the other piece of the Gillibrand discussion, also when Mamdani was on this show. It even goes back to before the vote in the primary. Susan, I don't know if you got wind of this when former Mayor Bill de Blasio, who was a Mamdani supporter over Andrew Cuomo, said he was concerned and thought Mamdani still needs to clarify further what he said in a podcast when he was asked if he would condemn the phrase globalize the intifada.

He said no, because people take the word intifada to mean violence, but it means so much more in the actual Arabic. It means shaking off in general, a struggle in general, and it doesn't necessarily imply violence. He didn't want to restrict the interpretation of the word to its most violent meaning when it's broader than that. Even de Blasio was saying people globalize the intifada. Many people take it as a call to violence because there is a violent element of intifada that's historically been there as the call of references. Mamdani needs to further distance himself from that. I think that's an ongoing unresolved issue for him.

Susan Page: We know this is a very important issue everywhere, but especially in New York with special residents in New York. This is one of the things campaigns are about. We'll be able to hear whether he tries to explain or moderate, explicate, clarify his position on this. I was struck by Ralph saying that it comes across as extreme. The longer I've covered politics, the less I know because I was pretty sure that America wouldn't elect Barack Hussein Obama president.

We had never elected a black president. I was pretty sure we wouldn't in 2016 elect Donald Trump as president, someone who hadn't run for office before and had been enmeshed in any number of controversies that would have undermined anybody else's candidacy. I no longer believe that it's impossible for people who seem to unelectable, that are dangerous, or risky, or different, that they can't win because it's up to them to make the case that they should win, which is what first Barack Obama and then Donald Trump succeeded in doing. This will be a race to watch for sure.

Brian Lehrer: You know what? I said that was going to be the last call. It was certainly a contrast to the previous call as we traffic in diverse points of view on the show. Here's one more because this just came in and it's yet another view, at least on why the primary turned out the way it did. Isaac in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Isaac: Hi, good morning, Brian. Thank you for having my call.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for making it.

Isaac: The point that I wanted to raise was that the youth turnout in the election was absolutely extraordinary. The other point I wanted to raise is that if you were to ask young people in New York City, including lots of young Jews in the city, young Muslims in the city, for us, that is something that is very emotionally and politically relevant is the genocide in Gaza. I think it is very important for us and it's very important for other folks, especially older voters, who don't, I guess, resonate with the issue the way that we do, that we have a politician who is not going to compromise or moderate on this issue. Even though we vote for Mandani, we participate in this campaign because we care about affordability, we care about our rent being expensive, we care about falling behind. I think that if we had seen him moderate, for example, I don't know if I would have gone on canvas because that for us he would have seemed like a sellout.

Brian Lehrer: I hear you, Isaac. Thank you very much. As a final point of political analysis on this, and I realize, Susan, you cover national politics from Washington, so you may not have a take on this as it relates to New York, but maybe there are national implications. No matter what one may think about the use of the word genocide and whether it's appropriate or not, and that's certainly a debate, it's possible that Mamdani's activism on Gaza was a reason that he won the nomination rather than him winning the nomination despite it. You get the difference that I'm indicating here?

Isaac: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe that helped, as the caller is saying, with turnout for people who got enthused enough to show up for Mamdani because they are so horrified about what's going on in Gaza. Maybe the politics of this are changing nationally, even as the war continues and people are being killed at food aid distribution sites. I know the Israeli government will dispute how that's happening. Nevertheless, I don't know, maybe being tough on Israel with respect to Gaza in particular is not a liability in politics in many, many places anymore, at least not in New York. It's just a theory.

Susan Page: Certainly, we heard that from your last caller. The last two callers illustrate the challenge that he'll face in this campaign, because I would be surprised if he backed away from the positions he has taken on this issue. I certainly agree that for some voters, this was motivating for them. It's something he's going to have to talk about in a way that is persuasive to voters. Of course, the best political leaders are able to do that. The best political leaders don't just support the positions that the current polling shows they ought to support.

They sometimes tackle really difficult issues and explain why their solution is the one that voters ought to endorse. That's really our politics at its best. We don't currently have our politics at its best many places in this country, but we're going to have surely a very energetic campaign in New York that's going to explore this and test this new candidate. He's only 33 years old. This will be interesting both in terms of political philosophy, but also in terms of the emergence of a new generation of Democratic candidates, which is something many Democrats across the country have been eager to see. Democrats of different philosophical stripes.

Brian Lehrer: Certainly, the centerpiece of his campaign, according to him is affordability in New York City, so we're going to see a contrast. In fact, our next guest who represents Mayor Eric Adams, is going to discuss this to some degree. It's going to largely in New York City be a comparison of different approaches to the affordability crisis in the city. More more on that in another segment. More on that in subsequent days. Coming up in a minute, we will turn the page from Zohran Mamdani in national politics to other things with the Washington bureau chief of USA Today, Susan Page. Stay with us.

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Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we continue to talk July 7th national politics with Susan Page, Washington bureau chief for USA Today. Getting back to the so-called Big Beautiful Bill and the largest expansion of ICE's budget, 45 billion to build more detention facilities, can you talk a little bit about a term that some people may have heard by now, but don't really know what it refers to? Alligator Alcatraz, the new detention facility in the Florida Everglades that supposedly might serve as a model for others coming down the pipeline. What is meant by the term Alligator Alcatraz?

Susan Page: Florida, the state, is building kind of a tent prison in the Everglades in a remote location where a lot of hurricanes happen and is surrounded by snakes and alligators, where the people in charge say they won't need much security because it would be a death wish to escape from this place. They're building this, the state is building it, but for federal purposes, for the federal government to put undocumented immigrants there.

It is yet another sign of how frightening the treatment of these immigrants are by this administration. We have immigrants being sent to Guantanamo Bay, to that El Salvador mega-prison, to war in South Sudan. It's one more step in that. It is an example that some political officials in other Republican states say they ought to follow suit by building immigrant facilities in unpleasant places in their states.

Brian Lehrer: Right. In fact, here's a clip of Florida Governor Ron DeSantis on a tour of Alligator Alcatraz there in the Everglades.

Governor Ron DeSantis: This is as secure as it gets. I mean, if a criminal alien were to escape from here somehow, and I don't think they will, you've got nowhere to go. I mean, what are you going to do? Trudge through the swamp and dodge alligators on the way back to 50, 60 miles just to get to civilization? Not going to happen.

Brian Lehrer: In another clip, DeSantis says other red states should build their versions of Alligator Alcatraz for detention facilities for undocumented migrants. I mean, I don't know how many places have those kinds of conditions that he was describing there. You come from the Midwest somewhere, Susan. Is there an OMG, Omaha equivalent or whatever you would say?

Susan Page: I'm from Kansas, where every inch is like paradise. Kansas would not be a good place for one of these facilities, and I think Hawaii probably you want to rule them out. What about Alaska, though? There are probably some pretty dangerous places in Alaska that you could put up a facility like this. I saw a Republican in South Carolina saying they have alligator-infested waters, too, so maybe there are possibilities there. The idea that this is our debate about what to do is really quite the unexpected turn.

Brian Lehrer: We've seen activists and now think pieces referring to alligator Alcatraz as a concentration camp. Of course, that term has such horrific historical implications. Nazi Germany and everything else. Are Democrats using that language or just more activists and selected commentators?

Susan Page: There is a lot of concern about due process and the fact that people are being deported, in some cases, without that opportunity to plead their case. I think that that is something that a lot of Americans would worry about. The degree to which the focus is on members of convicted murderers, members of dangerous gangs, that those people get less sympathy, I think, for most Americans. Democrats, they just continue to be divided on what to say about immigration and whether to talk much about it. It continues to be the strongest single issue that President Trump has when you ask about how he's handling various aspects of the job of being president.

Brian Lehrer: Let me ask you about national politics and the deadly flood in Texas. Are there concerns that anybody's providing evidence for that? Federal cuts to the National Weather Service may have been partly responsible for a lack of evacuation warnings being disseminated in time?

Susan Page: We don't have evidence of that. That's, of course, something everybody is trying to look at. It was one of the early thoughts since we knew the administration to cut back on the National Weather Service and on FEMA staffers. We don't have any evidence that that played a part here. What seemed to be the most devastating part of this was the failure to have an effective alert system on the ground in the Hill Country of Texas, in a place that is known for its flash floods. It'll take us some a while, I think, to figure out what went wrong and what should have been done differently and what ought to be done. At the moment, the responsibility for this incredible tragedy seems to lie with the alert system and not with the National Weather Service.

Brian Lehrer: In fact, your article in USA Today yesterday focuses on a new poll surrounding Americans fears of natural disasters, even as cuts to climate-related programs are another central element of the so-called one Big Beautiful Bill. Tell us about the findings of that poll and how you see it relevant.

Susan Page: We do see Americans recognizing that weather is becoming more extreme where they live. 30% of Americans told us in the previous month they had suffered some kind of extreme weather where they live. Majorities of Americans say in the past 10 years, their communities have gotten more extreme weather events like hurricanes and tornadoes, and that they've been of greater intensity. We know from scientists that that is in fact the case. People see that happening in their own lives. We also found most Americans think that humans could do something about climate change, but that they won't change their behavior to do that.

Brian Lehrer: They want other people to change their behavior, I guess, or that they don't see the relationship as immediate. There's a disconnect there. Maybe it's something like that psychologically.

Susan Page: Maybe so. We do see in this Big Beautiful Bill really significant cutbacks in the green energy incentives that were one of President Biden's things that he was most proud of in his legacy.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, on Alligator Alcatraz, a couple of posts. One listener writes in a text message, "Please don't focus on Alligator Alcatraz when they're taking someone's mother away. It really is a secondary issue if they keep her in the Plaza Hotel or Alligator Alcatraz before deporting her." That's one point of view, not everybody may agree. Another one just says, "Cruel and unusual punishment?" with many question marks and many exclamation points. What about that? Is there any lawsuit as far as you know based on the constitutional provision barring the government from imposing cruel and unusual punishment?

Susan Page: You know, there are many, many lawsuits underway involving Trump administration policies. I just don't know if they cite cruel and unusual punishment. Many of them on the deal with immigration and deportation, deal with the right to a due process before you are expelled from this country or put in a dangerous place like a prison in El Salvador or Guantanamo Bay. I know that's been the guts of some of the legal challenges and some of them have been initially successful. We know that the court system isn't designed to turn on a dime, and the court process takes a lot of time to unfold and reach a final resolution. These days, just almost everything seems to end up at the Supreme Court.

Brian Lehrer: One more call. O'Brien in East Orange, you're on WNYC. Hi, thank you for calling in.

O'Brien: Hello, guys. I want the guest to really focus on the immigration issue, and that over 90% of those who are targeted have no criminal history. My question really is, over the weekend, the current administration has tasked the DoJ to go after naturalized citizens and to take away their citizenship. We had a program this morning that talked about two gentlemen who are naturalized citizens who they're now in jail, and they had no process whatsoever. As a matter of fact, the process was in another state while they were arrested. Could we just talk about the move for the eradication of naturalized citizens in this country who are--? [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Absolutely. This is yet another escalation by the Trump administration. They're talking openly, Susan, about using something that is in the law but is rarely used, where if somebody who's a naturalized citizen commits a crime, there can be a process of denaturalization where their actual citizenship is removed. Correct?

Susan Page: Yes. This may be the next big battleground in this immigration debate. The effort to, as you said, strip citizenship from naturalized citizens if they have been convicted of a crime. This is a step further than we've seen happen before. One of the mantras of the administration, when people say things like, you're deporting people who don't have a criminal history, they say they do have a criminal history, they are here illegally.

That is not something you can say about a naturalized citizen who has not been convicted of a crime. This is yet one more effort by the administration, a willingness by the administration, an eagerness by the administration to press the limits of what has ever been done before in this country to deport immigrants, especially illegal immigrants, but in this case, even naturalized citizens who have committed a crime.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe to the ad absurdum, Trump has said he's looking into deporting Elon Musk, who is a naturalized citizen. Again at the very beginning of the segment, which is now almost 45 minutes ago, I referred to Stephen Miller saying the quiet part out loud when it comes to his position as deputy White House chief of staff about immigration, that Mamdani's nomination for mayor shows what happens when you allow too much immigration.

That was the quiet part out loud, because it wasn't just about illegal immigration. Even having too many naturalized citizens, too many for him who might vote not the way you would vote for a candidate, finds Miller being alarmed and saying too much immigration, then it's too much legal immigration. Circling back around to this, Trump looking into deporting Elon Musk, or at least saying that, again, is he saying the quiet part out loud here? The quiet part in this case being that he's wielding his power maybe as an authoritarian to go after political enemies and not just those deemed to have illegal status.

Susan Page: We've seen the administration use a number of tools against his political enemies, legal, the Justice Department, and others. I mean, this is not the crackdown on universities. That isn't a new thing. The idea that the bromance between Donald Trump and Elon Musk wouldn't last forever, that may be the least surprising thing we've ever seen in American politics.

Brian Lehrer: Given the two egos involved. Musk, I see he's starting a new political party. Also called for Trump to be impeached the other day. Now he wants Trump impeached because he doesn't like the so-called one Big Beautiful Bill. Trump wants Musk deported, allegedly. Musk is starting a political party?

Susan Page: I don't know that I think Elon Musk has the kind of political charisma that is usually behind third parties that make a difference, like Teddy Roosevelt or even Ross Perot. he does have a ton of dough, and he's been willing to spend it. The fact that he might be willing to spend it against Trump and other Republicans is something of a worrisome sign, I think, for the GOP.

Brian Lehrer: Susan Page, USA Today Washington bureau chief and author of several books, including her latest, The Rulebreaker: The Life and Times of Barbara Walters, ending on kind of the obvious statement, but one that probably is worth saying a lot in the context of American politics, that Elon Musk, as well as some other people, do have a lot of dough. Susan, thank you very much for all the insights.

Susan Page: Thank you, Brian.

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