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Brigid Bergin: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin, senior reporter in the WNYC and Gothamist newsroom filling in for Brian today. We've got a big show for you. It's the first day of July and the last day the Supreme Court is announcing decisions before its own summer recess, and, yes, they saved a big one. We'll learn the court's ruling on the Trump immunity case today. That's about whether former President Trump has immunity from some of the most serious charges against him. That includes a federal indictment for trying to subvert the 2020 election and stay in power. We will bring you that news as soon as we hear it, and we may pivot to special coverage from NPR, but we have lots of political news to cover between now and then.

Just under the wire, the mayor in the city council reached a $112.4 billion budget deal. Libraries are coming back at full strength, but there's still some questions about the future of the city's early childhood education programs. Then there's a new documentary called Majority Rules that looks at a system of voting many of you might be familiar with. It's called Rank Choice Voting. If you cast a ballot in the Democratic primary for mayor in 2021, you used it. We'll talk with the filmmaker and an advocate for expanding use of the system, but first, Democrats are somewhere between freaking out and circling the wagons.

President Biden's debate performance was supposed to reassure voters that his age was not an issue. That didn't happen. Since last week, The New York Times editorial board has called on Biden to step aside writing, "At Thursday's debate, the President needed to convince the American public that he was equal to the formidable demands of the office he is seeking to hold for another term. Voters, however, cannot be expected to ignore what was instead plain to see. Mr. Biden is not the man he was four years ago." There were some serious stumbles in times when it felt like the President just lost his train of thought entirely. Here's about 20 seconds of one of those moments from last week's debate.

President Joe Biden: Making sure that we're able to make every single solitary person eligible for what I've been able to do with the COVID-- excuse me, dealing with everything we have to do with-- Look, if we finally beat Medicare.

Brigid Bergin: The New York Times editorial board was not alone in its calls for Biden to step aside. Columnists, Maureen Dowd, Paul Krugman, Tom Friedman, Nicholas Christophe, and MSNBC's, Joe Scarborough all sounded the alarm, and that's just a sampling, not even a complete list. There have also been some voices pushing back from the Biden Camp, even from a former Republican consultant, Stuart Stevens, now an advisor to the anti-Trump Lincoln Project. He writes, "It's baffling that so many Democrats are failing to rally around a wildly successful president after one bad night, but it does remind me why Republicans defeated Democrats in so many races Republicans should have lost."

Can Joe Biden survive his poor debate performance? That's the question posed by Susan Page, the Washington Bureau chief of USA Today in her latest column. She has written two columns since the debate last week, assessing Biden's performance and looking at what might happen if Democrats opt to replace him at the top of the ticket.

Susan Page has covered 12 presidential campaigns and 7 White House administration. She's the author of several bestselling books, and she served as a debate moderator in 2020 for the vice-presidential debate between Mike Pence and Kamala Harris. She joins me now for this Monday morning politics segment. Susan, welcome back to the Brian Lehrer Show. Always great to talk to you.

Susan Page: Hey, Bridgid, it's always a privilege to be on your show.

Brigid Bergin: Well, Susan, I want to start, because just before you came on air, you reported the latest results of a new USA Today Suffolk University poll with some, again, not-so-great results for President Biden. More than 4 in 10 Democrats, 41% said that the Democratic Party should replace him at the top as their presidential nominee. That includes 37% of those who say they plan to vote for him. It's pretty astounding. Tell us a little bit more about the poll and its findings.

Susan Page: This is a survey that we took with Suffolk University since the debate. We were in the field on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. It captures the impact of the debate. What we found was that Americans are not happy with either candidate. Americans would like not only Joe Biden replaced at the top of his ticket, but Donald Trump replaced at the top of his ticket, but there's a big difference because Biden's core support is now deeply divided.

The fact that 41% of Democrats want him replaced is quite stunning. Donald Trump's core support is quite united. Only 14% of Republicans said that he should be replaced, so this really underscores the dilemma for Democrats and this debate over whether Biden should take the unprecedented step of stepping back from the nomination after having sealed it in the primaries is one that is still raging.

Brigid Bergin: Well, we're going to get into that debate throughout this conversation, but I'm so curious to know some of your initial reactions. I played that clip of Biden seeming to just trail off during the debate. Tell me where did you watch it and what were some of your initial thoughts? I'm sure you've had a lot of conversations since then, but I think we all can remember that feeling as we were sitting there watching it, what was going through our minds.

Susan Page: Bridgid, I've covered a lot of debates. I covered this one like most of them on TV. The very first presidential debate I covered, I covered in the hall, and that was not the place to see how Americans were seeing the debate. Like the others, I watched this one on television, and sometimes, it takes a while to figure out who's doing well, who's not doing well. That wasn't the case with this debate.

From the time President Biden opened his mouth, you knew that there was trouble. His voice was raspy. It took a while to figure out what was going on there, and he seemed distracted. He didn't seem focused.

Now, the criticism of Trump, too. Trump unleashed a series of statements that are untrue. He's gotten criticism for that, but it was hard to notice. It was unmistakable to see how President Biden was really struggling, and he's got a little better as the debate went on, but in fact, this was the worst debate performance, I think, of his political career.

Brigid Bergin: You wrote last week about how some of the rules for this debate intended to curb Trump's constant interruptions like we saw in 2016, 2020 may have actually hurt Biden. Can you talk more about the power of the mute button as you called it?

Susan Page: We've struggled since 2016 with whether the old debate rules work with Donald Trump on stage because he does not respect the tradition of letting the other person talk, of not interrupting when it's their turn to talk. You saw just as a debate community that first the Commission on Presidential Debates and now CNN tried to figure out how to make the debate more productive.

The Biden people were in favor of having this mute button where the microphone was turned off when it was not the candidate's turn to speak, but the result was that it enforced an unusual kind of discipline on Trump. He did not interrupt as a rule. He didn't run over his time. The criticism of his answers would be on their truthfulness, but not on their length or his disruptive attitude toward the other candidate. I think it didn't do quite what the Biden people had hoped it would do.

Brigid Bergin: Susan, before I even invited our active listeners to join this conversation, we already have people calling in. I want to set up the question for those of you who haven't picked up your phones yet, after watching last week's debate and the media coverage since, where do you stand now on President Biden's reelection?

If you watched the debate and you were feeling concerned or worried, maybe even bothered by his performance, have those feelings changed in the days since, and if so, do you feel more concerned and interested in seeing him step aside, or have you been persuaded otherwise to think it was just one bad night? How are you feeling three days since the debate?

Give us a call, 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-9692 or if you have another question for my guest, USA Today Washington Bureau Chief Susan Page, again, the number 212-433-9692. You can call or text that number or tweet at @brianlehrer. We're going to go to Nick in Manhattan with our first question because I know a lot of listeners have this question. Nick, thanks so much for calling.

Nick: Yes. Thanks. Actually, it's Manhasset, but my question for Susan Page is this. If a large block of Biden delegates refuses to vote for him on the first ballot at the convention, what type of penalty or punishment would they receive from the DNC for breaking their oath or violating the rules?

Susan Page: Nick, they would not in fact be violating the rules if they did that. The rules say that they are committed to Biden. They are pledged to Biden as a result of the primary results, but in 1980, you remember, or maybe you're younger than I am, but I remember Teddy Kennedy challenging President Carter at the Democratic Convention that year in New York. The DNC passed rules that had kind of called a conscience exemption. That means that if a delegate voting their conscience does not want to vote for the candidate to which they are pledged, they are free to do so.

Now, I think that's really unlikely. The people who are Biden delegates not only are pledged to Biden but they're people who were chosen in large part by the Biden campaign to be delegates. These are definitely Biden loyalists. If you saw a significant number, that would be surprising and extremely significant.

Brigid Bergin: Nick, thanks so much for that call and that question. Susan, I'm getting a lot of texts that help me set up this question that I was going to ask you anyhow. I'm going to read this one text. The listener writes, "It's incredibly frustrating that Donald Trump was largely incoherent, had nothing to say related to policy, could not control himself, had sequences of words that were not sentences and yet, the story for days has been Biden's performance. This is the same as 2016. Trump is just the crazy uncle no one pays attention to. The normal person gets all the flack."

My question is as that listener points out and as we are talking about so much of the post-debate analysis has focused on President Biden's weak performance, but for skeptics of former president Trump, he didn't do much to reassure voters concerned about what a second Trump presidency might look like whether it's related to abortion rights or even accepting election results. You mentioned that his lack of truthfulness stood out to you, but anything else stand out to you about his performance that maybe is getting lost in this almost singular focus on President Biden's performance?

Susan Page: Certainly, Biden's performance has gotten the lion's share of the commentary, and that is because Biden's presence on the ticket is now in at least some peril. That is not the situation that Trump faces. Trump's nomination is in no peril. That doesn't mean people are happy with Trump as one of their choices. In fairness, now, I realize fact-checkers are not always the most read part of our website but our website and other independent fact-checkers did look at the truthfulness of the statements of both the candidates. They found a couple of misstatements by Biden and they found a slew of falsehoods by Trump, which we tried to point out. If you're thinking about what's the impact of this debate, the impact of this debate has been to solidify Trump's support and to divide Biden's support, so I would argue that is the news-making story out of this debate.

Brigid Bergin: Susan, there have also been some critiques of the debate moderators, CNN's Jake Tapper and Dana Bash. Some said that they should have been doing more real-time fact-checking during the debate. I've moderated Congressional debates. I know that's a really tall ask. You've moderated a vice-presidential debate. From your experience, do you think that's a fair criticism, and is there any way to do it better in real time?

Susan Page: I think it is a really fair point to make. It is a conundrum for moderators. I'm sure you've seen this, too, Brigid, when you've done it about how much you are facilitating the debate and how much you are becoming a participant in the debate. The more you fact-check, the more you become a participant in the debate. Now, that is a legitimate role for journalists and for moderators to take.

The two CNN moderators, Jake Tapper and Dana Bash, had said beforehand that they were going to facilitate the debate, not participate in. They had said beforehand that they were, as a general rule, not going to be doing fact-checking on their own in the debate. That's very frustrating for those who want Trump challenged on some of his untruths.

The theory behind this from a moderator's point of view is that the responsibility for countering untruths by the other guy is by the candidate himself. I think it is fair to say that President Biden struggled ineffectively countering untruths that were stated by Donald Trump. Listen, the frustration that viewers saw is one that it's impossible not to acknowledge. We just continue to try to figure out how to make debates like this which are such an opportunity for voters how to make them work better.

Brigid Bergin: I want to go to another caller. Let's try Linda in Manhattan. Linda, thanks for calling.

Linda: Oh, you're very welcome. What is very concerning to me is that nobody is talking about what is going to win this race. What's going to win this race is the candidate who can get the most undecided, the people who are not happy maybe with the current people, especially Donald Trump, and those who are unaffiliated. I tried to watch the debate as if I was one of those people. I'm a strong Biden supporter. I think he's been a fabulous president, but I watched this as if I was one of that group. They're the ones that hold the power.

I would not vote for President Biden if I was one of those people. He couldn't complete a sentence. He couldn't support his programs. He wasn't making any sense. That is where this presidency is going to be won or lost. I think he has to drop out. If he doesn't drop out, he's dropping out on the country.

Brigid Bergin: Linda, thank you for that call. I want to go to Ann in Brooklyn for have you respond, Susan. Ann, thanks for calling WNYC.

Ann: Thank you. It's a pleasure. My question is, drop out for who? The convention is a month and a half away. How do you put together a coalition? How do you campaign? Who is going to be? Gavin Newsom? This country is going to be flooded with ads about Gavin Newsom and all the homelessness in San Francisco. He's not going to win. Maybe Gretchen Whitmer. Basically, he had a horrible night. He had senior moments. He reminded me of my dad before he died, frankly, but this is who we have. The Democrats need to get on board if they want to save this democracy.

That's all it really comes down to. These are the choices-- Trump stood up there and said that women give birth and then execute their babies. What kind of sick mind even dreams this up? That's a candidate and we're debating if Biden is actually sane?

As much as that performance, really, it was a performance, broke my heart. I'm totally on board with supporting him again. If he had dropped out 15 months ago, that would have been the time to do it but he didn't, and I don't see he's going to step aside anytime soon. We need to support him, and The New York Times needs to help him win, read her article after article about how horrible he is. It's just enough already.

Brigid Bergin: Ann, thank you so much for that. Ann raises a really important point there, Susan, related to some of the language Donald Trump used related to abortion and what Democrats have allowed, and what turning the rights back to the States allows much of which was completely false. What are your reactions to what you heard from those two callers?

Susan Page: Linda and Ann have just articulated the debate that is dividing the Democratic party right now, that is dividing members of Congress, that is dividing top strategist for the party, that's dividing even people who now work in the White House. If you believe that Trump is a danger to democracy, and that is the argument that President Biden made four years ago, and the argument that Democrats made now, what is the best way to defeat Donald Trump? Is it by replacing Joe Biden or uniting behind him? That is the crux of what we see going on right now in Democratic circles publicly and privately.

I don't know whether Linda or Ann's arguments are going to prevail at the end of the day. Ann did ask who would replace him. That's a very fair question. The process would happen is I think the only way Biden gets replaced is if he chooses to step back. I think the idea that you're going to get a runaway convention to denying the nomination is inconceivable. If Biden decided to step back, he doesn't control who gets his delegates, and they do not automatically go to his running mate, to Kamala Harris, but he could make a recommendation, and that could hold a lot of power.

Obviously, Vice President Harris would be in the mix of potential candidates. There are several governors whose names are being mentioned. She mentioned two of them, Gavin Newsom of California and Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan, and there are a couple others, but it would be a messy process. One things we know from history, messy conventions tend to lead to losing efforts in November. That is we just heard the Democrats debate right there between your two callers.

Brigid Bergin: Well, let's talk for a moment more about the vice president. Have you heard any reaction from Kamala Harris or her team to the president's debate performance last week?

Susan Page: Well, Kamala Harris went on cable TV right after the debate and gave a much more vigorous defense of Biden than Biden had given. She acknowledged the obvious, which was that he had not had a good night. She said he had gotten better as the debate went on, but she articulated the case for his election more effectively than he did. She's been out there since then. She had presidential ambitions herself. She ran for President when Biden did in 2016 and ended up as his running mate. I'm sure she's watching this with the most personal interest of just about anybody other than Joe Biden.

Brigid Bergin: Absolutely.

Susan Page: She has defended the President in a very effective way in the days since the debate took place.

Brigid Bergin: Susan, in addition to Vice President Harris, there are other political figures who have the ear of the President. If there is growing momentum within the Democratic Party to either urge him to step aside or to reassure him that he must move forward, who are the political figures you think could sway him about what his next step should be?

Susan Page: Well, I can tell you, I don't think it would be President Obama or Hillary Clinton. I think those would be the obvious names because they're the most senior Democrats, the two presidential nominees. Those are people with whom he has some history that's fraught. I think the number one person who would make a difference is Jill Biden, who is his closest confidant, and who has been very much supported running. If she said to him, "Look, it's time to stop," I think that would be the most powerful voice.

He listens to other members of his family, to his son, Hunter, to his grandchildren. There are a couple of politicians that he might also listen to. Ted Kaufman, a longtime friend from Delaware, political figure from Delaware. Chris Coons, the senator who now holds the seat that Biden held in the Senate is also close to him. If he want to look for the key voice in his ear, it would be Jill.

Brigid Bergin: If you're just joining us, I'm Brigid Bergin in today for Brian Lehrer. My guest is Susan Page, Washington Bureau Chief for USA Today. We're talking Monday morning politics with a focus on the fallout from last week's presidential debate. While we of course await that very consequential ruling from the Supreme Court in the Trump immunity case, we need to take a short break, but we're going to be back in a minute with more of your calls. Stick around.

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Brigid Bergin: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin from the WNYC and Gothamist newsroom, and my guest now is Susan Page, Washington Bureau Chief for USA Today. We're talking Monday morning politics with a focus on last week's presidential debate and how the Biden campaign, in particular, moves forward. We do this while we await some big decisions coming from the Supreme Court, which we're going to be talking about as well very soon.

Susan, I want to play a little clip of contrast. Compared to Thursday night, this is President Biden at a rally on Friday in North Carolina. It's got a lot more vim and vigor compared to that debate stage. Here's about 40 seconds of that rally.

President Joe Biden: I don't walk as easy as I used to. I don't speak as smoothly as I used to. I don't debate as well as I used to, but I know what I do know. I know how to tell the truth.

[applause]

I know. I know. I know right from wrong. I know how to do this job. I know how to get things done. I know like millions of Americans know. When you get knocked down, you get back up.

[applause]

Brigid Bergin: Now that's of course the Biden that his supporters wanted to see on stage on Thursday. Susan, how has his team been trying to shore up his support?

Susan Page: Well, they've portrayed this as one bad night. They're not trying to deny the reality that he didn't perform well in the debate. They acknowledge that but say, "It's just one night." They say the fundamentals of this campaign aren't different. We have seen a pretty stable race, a margin of error race for months and months in this rematch from the candidates who ran against each other in 2020.

They're trying to counter it also by showing him to be more effective as he was at that rally in Raleigh. I would say that two points that sceptics have made, is that the rally was during the day, the debate was at night. We have White House people saying, campaign people saying Biden is at his best between 10 and 4. That is not reassuring, I think, to Americans who know that as President, you never know what time of day some crisis will erupt.

The other thing is that at rally, he was reading off a teleprompter. It was a scripted moment. I think what Americans and what voters might like to see is him in unscripted moments like the debate, either doing interviews with mainstream reporters. I would be delighted to interview President Biden anytime, or doing press conferences, which he's done very few historically, the fewest press conferences of any modern president. That would, I think, do more to reassure Americans that he's really on his game and that is realistic to think of him as being an effective president for another four years.

Brigid Bergin: I'm going to go to another caller. Let's go to Marvin in Brooklyn. Marvin, thanks for calling.

Marvin: Hi. Thanks for putting me on. Thanks to Susan Page for all her work and also her great biographies. I think that the media gets off too easily. Yes. Biden had a terrible night, a terrible debate. He's not a good candidate, but he's been one of the best presidents we've ever had and most effective. Donald Trump is a liar, evaded questions. That's the thing again, that the moderators -- Wasn't so much a question of fact-checking. They should have made him answer the questions that would have been facilitating a debate instead of letting him ramble.

When Trump was convicted of sexual assault, the equivalent of rape, I didn't see an enormous outpouring of editorials from The New York Times, The Washington Post, et cetera, calling for Trump to be dropped from the campaign or to drop out because he's a sexual predator. The way the two candidates have been treated by the press adds to the narrative.

Biden, again, is a terrible candidate. I wish he was 20 years younger, but he's been and will be the most effective president we've had. Donald Trump, we're waiting for the Supreme Court decisions that have already been horrible this term. Donald Trump created that Supreme Court. Donald Trump took away women's rights to control their bodies.

Brigid Bergin: Marvin, I thank you for that call. I think push back a little bit because I do think that there had-- I think there was plenty of outcry during various points, certainly, Trump campaign, Trump Administration, Trump convictions from the media and from other places, but definitely hear you that at the moment, President Biden is at the center of this storm. Let's go to Robert in the Bronx who has another idea. Robert, thanks for calling The Brian Lehrer Show.

Robert: Hi. I was thinking about this the other day, feeling the same way that other callers have expressed that Biden was really a disaster the other night. I'd be curious to hear what your guest has to say about this idea that I had. What if Biden were to resign today, which would automatically make Kamala Harris the President, and then Kamala Harris, turned around and appointed Biden as your Vice President?

You now get a younger, fresher person at the top of the ticket, and yet, you'd have that elder statesman, Joe Biden as part of the team who has the experience, he has the contact, but he's not going to have the pressure that having this most important job in the world comes with. It's more of a backup. Of course, at 81 years old, he's having to step back into the presidency, unless there was some terrible disaster like a [crosstalk]--

Brigid Bergin: Robert, let me jump in there and let Susan respond to your idea, which I suspect you're not the only one who has had so far, but thanks for calling and just stating it plain. Let me also ask you another question, Susan, related to why making a change like Robert suggested would be complicated at the convention. Maybe you can give us a little reaction and an answer, and then, we'll jump in with some SCOTUS news that's just coming down. We're trying to process exactly what it is but we're going to have more in just a moment for our listeners.

Susan Page: Well, that's a Supreme Court decision. We've all been waiting for that. That'll be interesting. Robert, I had not heard of this idea before. It's entirely original. I think it is, let's say, unlikely. If Joe Biden is going to decide not to run again, that is a step pretty far for him. The idea that he would actually resign his presidency before his four years are up I think would be even harder. The fact that you're suggesting is just a sign of how Democrats and supporters of Biden are trying to figure out how to make this work.

Brigid Bergin: Okay. So we have some information about this immunity decision. This is Amy Howe from SCOTUSblog. She writes "The Court holds that a former president has absolute immunity for his core constitutional powers." We're going to unpack more of what that means as we have time to process this decision. We know that it was a 6-3 decision written by Chief Justice Roberts. We'll get more. Susan, any initial reaction to that very, very brief headline that I could share with you from SCOTUSblog?

Susan Page: Probably dangerous for me to talk about the decision. Let me talk about the timing of the decision. This is already a victory for Donald Trump. The length of time The Court took to come down with this decision means that it is basically impossible for a trial to take place before people vote. That strikes me as a very important thing to keep in mind.

Brigid Bergin: Let's get back because we know we've got conventions coming up throughout this summer. We've got the Republican Convention in just two weeks, the Democratic Convention later in August. How much do you think both this debate performance and then as we further unpack this ruling the implications of this ruling will be at the center of either of those major conversations?

Susan Page: Well, this decision will be at the center of a discussion of the powers of the presidency and the immunity that a president can count on and a decision that recognizes absolute immunity for his core role is one that seems to be one that would embolden presidents. Trump has already been pretty emboldened about the powers of the presidency.

I'm not sure the court decision affects the outcome of the election. I think that when you think about political remissions, remember those are dominated by partisans. Both of them will be dominated by partisans who took the job of delegate supporting Trump or supporting Biden. It is not a test of the general electorate and it certainly isn't a test of where those swing voters that will determine the outcome in November where they will stand.

Brigid Bergin: I'm going to give our listeners a little bit more of what we're learning about this decision. Constitutional Law Professor Stephen Vladeck tweets "Ideologically divided majority that former presidents have 'presumptive immunity for official acts, but not for unofficial acts.'" From Amy Howe again, back at SCOTUSblog, the core constitutional powers are things like appointing ambassadors and foreign governments.

We still have a lot of gray area that we need to understand about this ruling. Excuse me, Susan. I'm wondering back to this idea of what Democrats need to contend with going forward. You wrote that Democrats plan to hold a virtual roll call on August 7th. That's a couple weeks before their convention. What is that? How would it work? Is that the moment where if something were to change, we might start to hear it, or is that the point where if President Biden is at a weak point, we might see some of the infighting that people who are calling for him to step aside are predicting?

Susan Page: Yes. That is a very important moment. Now, the DNC can still change the nominee after he or she has chosen. There's a procedure to do that that involves consultation with democratic officials like governors and senators and a vote by the members of the Democratic National Convention. First, that virtual roll call is important. They're having it. We've never had this convention before is because Ohio has had a deadline to get on the ballot of August 7th and nervous Democrats didn't want to run the risk that Ohio would refuse to put Biden on the ballot if they didn't nominate him until the convention itself had opened after a week or so later.

They arranged for this virtual roll call. That'd be like the one we saw last time during COVID but it would be held before the convention took place. We thought it would rob the convention of whatever drama it might have. Maybe that's not going to be the case because we will have no shortage of drama, I can tell you, at the Democratic Convention.

Brigid Bergin: The 2016 Democratic Convention in Philadelphia, I covered that there were large numbers of supporters for Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders. They were very vocal. They were very angry. You could see them at the convention floor. You could see it traveling around the city of Philadelphia. Is there even time for Democrats to rally around another nominee and avoid chaos at the convention, which, as you have said, doesn't help the party, certainly doesn't give them the bump that they hope to get out of a convention going into November?

Susan Page: The division that we saw in the 2016 Democratic Convention was a problem for the nominee for Hillary Clinton. There were some Bernie Sanders endorsers, but some of his supporters never did reconcile themselves to her as the nominee. If you remember, even the DNC chairman resigned during that convention. That convention had a lot of turbulence.

You could see a chaotic convention this time but one thing I've learned is don't assume we know what's going to happen next and don't assume that it's impossible that the Democrats unite behind Biden. That's possible. It's also possible they unite behind Harris or some other candidate. It is a situation we have never seen in modern times. I think especially journalists should be humble about their knowledge, their ability to project what it is that will happen next. We'll have to see it unfold just like everybody else.

Brigid Bergin: Well, that's interesting because it relates to one of the points you raised in one of your columns since the debate which is the lesson of the Access Hollywood tape. Perhaps for better or for worse, maybe President Biden's team can take a page from Trump's playbook and treat the debate the way the Trump campaign treated the Access Hollywood tape, just let the media cycle play out and move on. Do you think that's possible?

Susan Page: Well, it is a source of great strength for Trump that the Access Hollywood tape was the first big example where something that would've ended somebody else's political career did not end his, he just plowed ahead. We saw that happen in May when he was convicted on 34 counts in a New York courtroom, and it did not phase his core supporters.

Now that hasn't been the experience with Democrats. They haven't responded that way in the past, but we heard one of your listeners, I think it was Anne, say that's what Democrats should do. Democrats should do what Republicans have done when Trump has gotten in trouble and just unite behind him.

Brigid Bergin: I want to bring listeners to more of what we're learning from this recent Supreme Court decision. Amy at SCOTUSblog writes, "So the Supreme Court isn't going to make the determination now. Instead, it will send the case back to the lower courts for further proceedings, although it does offer some guidance." Justice Sotomayor writes in her dissent, "With fear for our democracy, I dissent," a lot to unpack there. We expect to have some NPR special coverage coming soon. When that's ready, we will go to that.

Susan, a couple more questions for you. I know that you need to go soon, too, but let's take a moment. Former President Trump has already been convicted of a felony charge here in New York. What are you looking for in terms of fallout with Trump supporters from this Supreme Court ruling? Do you think really there's anything that will pull support away from him, particularly after that poll that just came out showing how consolidated his support is?

Susan Page: I think if there's a lesson since 2016, it's that Donald Trump's core support is with him no matter what. Now the question is can he appeal to voters beyond his core support? It's possible that some of the controversies that have engulfed him cost him among women voters, among suburban voters, among college-educated voters who have been dismayed by some of the firestorms around his behavior, but do not look for erosion among his core supporters because it is, I think, pretty apparent that what he said once, which is he could murder someone on 5th Avenue and his supporters would still be with him. We all laughed at that at the time and it has turned out to be mostly true.

Brigid Bergin: We have a board that has been full of patient callers who all have something to say in this conversation. Let's go to Elias in Astoria. Elias, thanks for waiting. Welcome to The Brian Lehrer Show.

Elias: [crosstalk] Hey, thanks for having me. I, too, had an emotional reaction and I was in the-- God, he can't win. I'm a Democrat. I thought about it some more, and I've watched people on TV-- Let me get to the point. It's not that Biden didn't succeed in the debate. I believe it's impossible to debate Mr. Trump. His emotional intelligence is so high that anyone-- Biden sees him as a compatriot, a fellow American, and anyone with empathy or forgiveness or sincerity is going to get plowed over by this guy.

Now, I believe on a primal level, debates are designed to see who would, in our current day, who would stand up more against Putin. I don't believe that Biden would cower against an enemy.

Brigid Bergin: Elias, thank you for that call. We have some more callers that we're going to take as we await NPR special coverage, but I need to say my thanks and let our guest, Susan Page, bestselling author, Washington Bureau Chief for USA Today go. Susan, thank you so much for joining me, a lot to talk about between now and November.

Susan Page: Brigid, what a day.

Brigid Bergin: What a day.

Susan Page: Thanks very much.

Brigid Bergin: Take care. Okay. Listeners, we have some more views on the Biden Presidency. We're going to take calls for a few more minutes, but as I mentioned, we are going to go to NPR special coverage to unpack this immunity case ruling from the Supreme Court. It's complicated. We want to get some legal experts in here.

Later in the show, we will take some of your calls to get your reaction, so stick around. Listen to what this ruling means, and then we want to hear from you to see your reaction to it. Let's go to Joan in Brooklyn. Joan, thanks so much for calling.

Joan: Hi. Thank you. I believe that this debate set up Trump to win by a landslide. I am a left-progressive person. Of course, I would have voted for Biden, but I hope he's not the candidate. We need to do something radical. We need to do something radical to avoid fascism. Whether Biden is good or not is not the issue, it's the perception. He fell apart, everybody agrees with that, and he needs to go.

Trump will dismantle the government. Forget Kamala. I like her, but we don't know her. We need to do a really radical thing, pick someone that Americans love like Michelle Obama. Does she want it? No. Does she want fascism? No. Maybe she would do it. Don't follow the rules. The Republicans don't follow the rules. They're a bunch of lowlifes. We always get stepped on, but this time, the stakes are so high.

Brigid Bergin: Joan, thank you so much for your call. At this point, we're going to get ourselves ready to go to NPR's special coverage of this recent Supreme Court ruling on the Trump immunity case. We will take your calls at the end of the show, depending on how long the special coverage goes. Stick around, listen to that, and we'll be back with you soon.

 

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