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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer, on WNYC. Now to the news of New Jersey Senator Bob Menendez's conviction on corruption charges. A jury needed just two full days of deliberation to find the senator guilty on all 16 counts of bribery, obstruction of justice, and acting as a foreign agent. The trial revealed a web of corruption involving Menendez, his wife Nadine, and several businessmen who sought political favors. The verdict is historic, making Menendez the first sitting senator convicted of acting as an agent of a foreign government.

Despite mounting calls for his resignation now, Menendez remains defiant and has already vowed to appeal this guilty verdict. He's also, at least as of now, running for his seat as an independent. He did not get the Democratic nomination. Our Nancy Solomon is here to help us unpack the conviction and its impact on New Jersey as well as national politics. Hi, Nancy.

Nancy Solomon: Hi, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we will have time for calls on this. Your questions about, and reactions to Senator Bob Menendez's conviction, welcome here, for Nancy Solomon. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Guilty on all counts. I named the big categories briefly there. Anything you want to say more specifically, maybe especially about the historic charge of acting as an agent for a foreign government, which no sitting US senator has ever been convicted of before?

Nancy Solomon: Yes, Brian. That was probably the strongest part of the government's case against him. He starts dating Nadine Arslanian in 2018, right after his hung jury, escaped from bribery conviction, late in the year, in 2017, in the fall. Then, in 2018, he starts dating Nadine. She introduces him to an Egyptian-born New Jersey businessman Wael Hana. Hana is connected to another businessman who Menendez already has a relationship with, a real estate developer, Fred Daibes.

They quickly, and when I say they, I mean Nadine and Wael, introduce the senator to Egyptian military and intelligence officials who want help with their weapons sales. Their sales of American weapons have been held up over human rights violations, and they want the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Menendez, to help them get those back on track.

Because they had a letter, that Menendez helped the Egyptians write, that was sent to his fellow senators, and that was then-- he took that letter, he edited it, co-wrote it, and then he sent it back to the Egyptian officials by way of Nadine, his girlfriend at the time, now his wife. He says, "This was legitimate work as a senator. I'm on the Foreign Relations Committee. I advocate in our relationships with foreign governments," but then that letter would have gone through his staff.

These were some of the details that I think really pushed the government's case over the line into success this time around.

Brian Lehrer: Now, the trial revealed intricate details about the bribery scheme. Could you elaborate on how prosecutors connected the gold bars, Mercedes-Benz, and cash found in Menendez's home to the alleged favors for Egypt and Qatar?

Nancy Solomon: Yes. I'd say at the top of the list were the fingerprints and DNA of Fred Daibes, the wealthy real estate developer who is-- all of these folks are connected to each other. The three businessmen all knew each other in different ways, and had different connections. Nadine, she's Armenian. She was born in Lebanon. She speaks Arabic. She hung out at a bar in Bergen County, where folks from a Pan-Middle Eastern community, who speak Arabic, hang out, and that's how she knew Hana and Daibes.

Daibes was born in Lebanon as well, Hana from Egypt. The fact that Daibes's fingerprints and DNA were on the cash and the cash envelopes, and that some of the gold bars were actually registered to him, I think that really helped. Then there was a whole string-- unbelievable amount of text messages between the senator and Nadine, between Nadine and Hana, and another businessman who pled guilty and testified against Menendez, Jose Uribe. There was a lot for the jury to be convinced by, let's just put it that way.

Brian Lehrer: How did the prosecution build its case around Menendez's role as chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee? You referred to this a minute ago, with respect to his defense, "Hey, I'm chair of Foreign Relations, so I'm always talking about, and with representatives of other countries." What specific actions did they highlight as abuses of this position?

Nancy Solomon: He made a call to the United States Department of Agriculture, which is involved with and regulates businesses that do business with foreign countries. There's a whole element of this scheme that involves the Egyptian businessman Wael Hana and him obtaining a monopoly on halal meat certification. Just like kosher meat, American beef producers have meat certified for export to Muslim countries. It's certified as halal.

There were four companies that did that certification. Egypt has control over who they do business with. They said, "No, we're only doing business with this one guy," and this was the guy Hana. The USDA was not happy with that decision. They were advocating with Egypt to open it back up to the other American business people. Menendez made a call to the USDA, saying, "Hey, this is my constituent. Lay off. He has a right to have this monopoly." That was one thing.

I mentioned the letter that was meant to convince other senators to open up the weapons sales. There was an introduction that he made with the royal family of Qatar, to invest in the real estate development that Fred Daibes was putting together in Edgewater, New Jersey. I'm trying to think if there were others, specifically about his role as chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. I think those are the ones that relate directly to that position.

Brian Lehrer: What happened to the, "My wife was to blame" defense?

Nancy Solomon: I don't think the jury bought it. I think if they bought it, we would have seen at least a split verdict, if not an acquittal altogether. Basically, what Menendez did-- Nadine is unfortunately undergoing treatment for breast cancer. She had surgery in the spring. The judge delayed her case so that she could recover. By splitting her off, that allowed Menendez defense attorneys to say, "They were just dating."

At the beginning, when they were dating, she's not going to tell him that she has financial problems, and that somebody is helping her pay her mortgage. She's not going to tell him that she's getting gifts, and that these folks are helping her, because she's embarrassed that she's broke. They tried to make this case, that he didn't really know that she was collecting all this stuff from friends, but it doesn't really wash, when you see all the texts between them.

The defense argued that those texts can be misconstrued, or even statements. There was surveillance of a meeting with Egyptian officials at a restaurant in Washington, D.C., with Nadine and Bob Menendez, and the officials. Nadine, at one point, is heard by FBI agents who are at a table next to them, is heard saying, "Is there anything else the love of my life can do for you?" The defense said, "Look, that could have mean-- do you want me to pass the butter? There's no telling what that meant."

I think it was the level of detail, overall, any one thing, and you'd say, "Okay. This can be explained away," but you really couldn't-- they couldn't explain away the sum total of it.

Brian Lehrer: 212-433-WNYC, for anyone with a comment or a question about the conviction of Senator Menendez, for our Nancy Solomon. 212-433-9692, call or text. Here's a question that came in via text message. Listener writes, since we were just talking about Nadine, "Is the implication that the senator was blinded by love?"

Nancy Solomon: I think you could read between the lines and see that. The defense, Menendez's defense, in their opening statements, talked about how he was dazzled by her. I think that you definitely can read between the lines that he was trying to impress her when they were first dating. Like, "Sure, I can do things for these people that are friends of yours." You can make up a narrative that fits the facts.

I think I'm going a little bit into that territory, so I want to be careful, but I do think that the evidence does show that he was dazzled by her, and that was the word that the defense attorney used. All this happens very, very quickly. They start dating in 2018 and he starts immediately meeting with these folks, and they get married in-- I think it was 2020.

Brian Lehrer: Speaking of blinded by love, if Menendez is expelled or resigns his seat in the Senate, listener writes, "Imagine my surprise hearing Nancy Solomon's report on Morning Edition, when the subject of who Governor Murphy would appoint to finish his term came up. Tammy? Well, why not?" Writes this listener, I think, sarcastically.

Nancy Solomon: Come on. Could it get any better? New Jersey politics is just-- every day, I wake up and I think, "What is going to happen today?" It's just amazing. For folks who haven't been following along closely, Tammy Murphy ran for Menendez's seat in the Democratic primary this year, starting late last fall, and she was defeated-- she dropped out of the race, but essentially, she was defeated by Andy Kim, Congressman from Burlington County.

Kim ran on an anti-corruption platform, and so, now, if Menendez either resigns or is expelled from the Senate, it'll be-- the governor chooses who to pick for the replacement, until January, when the term is up and whoever wins the November election takes that seat, and he could appoint his wife. I think it would be a pretty brazen, bold move, given all the criticism that they faced. I don't think he's up for all that.

I just get the sense that they were surprised at how much backlash there was to her candidacy. They just seemed to think that it was going to be a cakewalk, and so, I don't see him doing that. Andy Kim said yesterday that he would happily take the seat now, if asked to do so, but that would cause another problem, which is that the governor can appoint a senator, but he can't appoint a member of the house, so that would leave that seat open.

We just went through a special election to replace Donald Payne. The primary was yesterday, LaMonica McIver, New York City Council President, won the primary. I think it takes a while to get a primary and a special election on the books, so it's likely that that seat would have to stay open.

Brian Lehrer: Meaning that for the rest of the year, in such a closely divided Congress, the Republicans would have one more seat as an advantage. They only have a few seat majority as it is.

Nancy Solomon: Exactly. Yes.

Brian Lehrer: To the question of resignation or expulsion, Chuck Schumer, who's not only a Senator from New York, but Senate Majority Leader, as well as Governor Murphy, have called for Menendez's resignation. Is there any indication that he will step down voluntarily? Some people are talking about expulsion, which-- I don't know how much more difficult that is to get through the Senate under these circumstances.

Nancy Solomon: Menendez seemed really angry and defiant yesterday, after the guilty verdicts. He said that he will be appealing. The Supreme Court ruled, it in a case with a former Virginia governor, Bob McDonnell, I think it was in 2016. They have a ruling which really made it much more difficult for prosecutors to make a bribery case against a public official. I think he does have a legitimate chance at winning an appeal, so I think that's going to be his focus.

Whether he thinks it's going to help him to not step down and keep running as an independent for his seat in November, or whether he does step down, I think, is really anybody's guess, but this is a guy who does not back down from anything easily. One of the famous things that he has said in the past was, standing on the courthouse steps after his hung jury-- which is not exactly a victory, that means they couldn't agree.

His hung jury for bribery, in 2017, just months before he meets Nadine Menendez and they start this new round. He said, "To those who were digging my political grave so they could jump into my seat, I know who you are, and I won't forget you."

Brian Lehrer: Mary, in Point Pleasant, you're on WNYC, with Nancy Solomon. Hi, Mary. Oh, let me try this again. Mary -- oh, no, that's not working. We're having a problem with our phone lines, so we'll try to clear that up. In the meantime, you can text your questions or comments for Nancy to 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Listener texts, as a follow-up to what you were just describing, Nancy, simple question, "Why would Menendez insist on not stepping down?"

Nancy Solomon: I think because for him, it shows, he believes that a great injustice has been done to him. He also said in his press conference outside the courthouse yesterday, he said that these verdicts against him are going to make it harder for any senator to do their jobs properly, because their defense, all along, has been that prosecutors are criminalizing legal behavior.

The legal behavior being negotiating with foreign countries or making a call on behalf of a constituent to a prosecutor, saying, "Hey, lay off this guy's criminal case." His argument is, "This is what I do. I do this as a senator." I think it fits, for him to be defiant, it's a consistent message.

Brian Lehrer: Couple of texts that are coming in, they hit the same kind of sad note. One listener writes, "No question, just to comment. I am just sad at the state of politics in this country, on both sides. America deserves better. My faith is sustaining me, but it's getting hard." Another one writes, "Menendez has been corrupt for years. How he continued holding his seat has been baffling to me. Just goes to show party affiliation doesn't matter, Republicans or Democrats, politicians and corruption go together like peanut butter and jelly."

There's two disillusioned listeners, and you have a piece on Gothamist today, with the headline, Will Senator Menendez Conviction do Anything to Curb Corrupt New Jersey Politics? There's a bigger picture here besides the individual, huh?

Nancy Solomon: Yes. I understand why there's so much disgust and disillusionment. I think at a time when we have a lot of concern about what's going on nationally in American politics. I think there is some cause for optimism, cautiously, in New Jersey. When I was reporting out that story that ran this morning, and I started a few days before we actually had the verdicts, and I just wanted to talk to people and get a sense of "Okay, if there is a guilty verdict, what is this going to mean?"

I talked to a lot of people who really think that they see-- This is a turning point in New Jersey politics. It's not just the Menendez verdict, because really, that's one individual who is now likely to go to prison for doing something wrong. It doesn't necessarily affect the entire political system in New Jersey, but if you look at just what we've had happen in the last six months, where the Tammy Murphy candidacy was turned back by rank-and-file Democrats, who usually do what the party bosses tell them to do.

Then we saw the county line, the system that gives party bosses so much power, was defeated in court. It's not a permanent defeat, but it looks like it certainly is going into the trash bin of history. It might take another year or so. That's a huge change and lessening of political boss power. Then you had the indictment of George Norcross, the most powerful political boss in the state, charged with racketeering, corruption, and extortion.

Brian Lehrer: Also a Democrat.

Nancy Solomon: Also a Democrat, but Democrats are in control in New Jersey. There are more democratic voters, and there are more Democratic leaders and politicians, so I don't think you can just -- it's not that they're Democrats, they're people in power, and in New Jersey, they're the boss system. The strength of the county political parties has remained very strong, over decades, at a time when reforms elsewhere have taken root, and you don't have the party bossism to the same extent in other states.

I do think there's some reason to be cautiously optimistic.

Brian Lehrer: Steve, in Newtown, Pennsylvania, you're on WNYC, with Nancy Solomon. Hi, Steve.

Steve: Hi. Thank you for accepting my call. Democrats are trying to make the contention that the rule of law is paramount in the national elections. Trump is a felon, and we don't want Trump in the office because of that. We need to set the example, like Mayor Fetterman has done in Pennsylvania, to immediately condemn this felon, Menendez, and expel him from the Senate.

Otherwise, we're going to lose votes on people who cynically say, "Oh, all politicians are corrupt." We need to take a stand on something so serious as this corruption of Senator Menendez. Also, we made a pretty bad mistake getting Al Franken out of the Senate. Let's try to correct that and get this guy out for a real good reason.

Brian Lehrer: Steve, thank you very much. Without revisiting the Al Franken story, there is a context here, of Republicans trying to argue that the Biden Justice Department is weaponized against their party, but here's a very prominent example, and there are other ones, of the Federal Justice Department going after a prominent Democrat.

Nancy Solomon: Yes. I think that has, all along, been-- As embarrassing as this is to New Jersey Democrats, there always has been that feeling of, look, Menendez is coming in for it, just like Trump, and it undermines the Trump messaging and defense that he's being unfairly targeted, and that it's political, and I think that's a very legitimate claim to make.

Brian Lehrer: Menendez has vowed to appeal the verdict. Based on your coverage of the trial, what grounds might his defense team pursue in an appeal?

Nancy Solomon: I think the McDonnell decision that I referenced a few minutes ago, I think what that does is, it sets the bar pretty high on what kind of official actions an elected official needs to take to be convicted of bribery. The foundational idea in a bribery case is quid pro quo, Latin, for this, for that. The that in that phrase is going to-- I think it came under scrutiny by the defense throughout the trial.

I think that is where they'll go with their appeal, is to say, "Look, Bob Menendez didn't have any control over the USDA, that's an executive branch. He's in the Senate. He just made a call on behalf of a constituent. He doesn't have any control over the State Attorney General. He's a federal elected official. He doesn't control anything in the state of New Jersey." These are cases that he intervened on, he tried to get a guy who was-- the sitting US attorney for New Jersey.

He tried to negotiate with him and get him to promise that he would overturn a different case. That one, I think, is a little dicier for him. They probably won't bring that up in the appeal. One of the very foundational parts of the McDonnell decision is that things such as holding a meeting or making a phone call do not rise to the level of official action. I would guess that's where the defense is going to go.

Brian Lehrer: One more call. Andy, in New Paltz, you're on WNYC. Hi, Andy.

Andy: Hi, Brian. Thanks for taking my call. I'm asking this question as a lifelong democratic voter. I'm wondering if, after the 2017 hung jury, the Democratic Party, in its fundraising apparatus, I guess led partially by Chuck Schumer, stayed behind Senator Menendez, and if so, shouldn't there be some broader accountability?

Nancy Solomon: You're right. The Democratic Party closed ranks behind him as soon as the hung jury decision let him off the hook there. It was a different moment, politically. This is politics, obviously, but I'm not saying it's the right thing. At the time, Chris Christie was the governor of New Jersey. This is 2017, into the 2018 election. As a Republican, if Menendez had stepped down, he would've been the one to appoint the person to fill that seat.

That would've been a problem for the Democratic majority at the time, in the Senate. That was their reason, but you're absolutely right. The Democratic party, both in New Jersey and nationally, stepped up and closed ranks, and said, "This is the guy, and we're sticking with him." A lot of voters-- I think Democrats sort of saw the choice, held their noses, and voted for him.

Brian Lehrer: A few texts coming in, that I'll read, to wrap this up and get one more thought from you, Nancy. One listener writes, "Menendez's refusal to step aside relates directly to Joe Biden's, while Menendez is a criminal and Biden is a candidate losing his base." Of course, that's arguable, we'll find that out in November, I guess, if he stays on the ticket, but according to this listener, "While Menendez is a criminal and Biden is a candidate losing his base, the parallels reinforce the sense that there is a generation of politicians refusing to let go of power in the face of everything. Very disillusioning, as a solid Democrat," writes that listener.

Another one, however, writes, "Union City native here. Bob married my parents when he was mayor. Like the MAGAs, I'll continue to be a Bob fan. The crime, to me, is not too serious. I would still vote for him if he was on the ballot." Then there is somebody identifying as Jim, from Spring Lake, who says, "I'm available to serve out Senator Menendez's term if the governor calls," with a wink emoji.

Last question. He's still seeking reelection, right? He didn't get the Democratic nomination for his own democratic seat, but he's running as a third-party independent.

Nancy Solomon: Yes, he has filed the necessary paperwork to do that. He hasn't raised much money, understandably. This is early days. We just got the verdict yesterday, but at this moment, he appears to still be running as an independent. I guess what I'd love to end with is, to the caller from Union City-- I feel sad about this, and I do think that there is-- Bob Menendez did a lot of good things in his career, and he was a reliable champion and progressive vote, in both the House and the Senate, for Democrats.

He rose up, out of very modest circumstances, ran for local office, then state office, and then national office, without being a millionaire. He represents a different kind of era in politics. I think some people have spoken out, over the last 12 hours, 24 hours, to remind people that this is a guy who got his start in politics by testifying against the corrupt local party boss in Union City. Yes, he has a lot of respect, a lot of support. It's just a very, very sad set of both actions, circumstances, and outcomes for him.

Brian Lehrer: Now, our Nancy Solomon, see her article about this on Gothamist, and of course, hear her reporting on the radio. Nancy, thanks a lot.

Nancy Solomon: Thanks, Brian.

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