Title: Meet the NJ Governor Candidates: Steven Fulop

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We've been interviewing all the candidates in the June primaries for mayor of New York and governor of New Jersey. We'll do another one of those now on the Democratic side of the New Jersey gubernatorial primary, Steve Fulop, mayor of Jersey City since 2013. A little further bio, he's a former Marine and Goldman Sachs employee. He's overseen significant development in Jersey City and introduced policies like rent freezes during the pandemic and a right to counsel program for tenants facing eviction.

Supporters say his experience running a rapidly growing city gives him executive know-how, while critics argue that Jersey City's growth has contributed to gentrification and rising housing costs. Unlike some of his competitors, Representative Mikie Sherrill, a former federal prosecutor, Newark Mayor Ras Baraka, a longtime progressive leader, Fulop hasn't served in Congress or the state legislature. He says that's an asset, arguing that mayors are more directly accountable to their constituents. What's his vision for New Jersey? How would he tackle the state's biggest issues? How does he try to set himself apart in this very competitive primary? Steve Fulop joins us now. Mayor Fulop, thanks. Welcome back to WNYC.

Mayor Fulop: Thanks for having me. I didn't know I had critics like that, Brian, to be honest.

Brian: I'm sure it was a big surprise to you. Listeners, as we do on these segments, your candidate questions as well as mine. Welcome for Steve Fulop, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text. Why do you want to be governor?

Mayor Fulop: Look, I've been mayor for 12 years, led a city with one of the best renaissance stories in the country. We've been the economic backbone, led on social services, environmental justice issues. We've really led New Jersey. I think I recognize better than most the gaps between Trenton and municipal governments in New Jersey. New Jersey is rapidly becoming an unlivable state, unaffordable place for myself, for other families, for my kids. We're the only campaign that hasn't created a fallback plan on another elected office. I'm all in on this governor's race because I believe that we're substantive on policy to change New Jersey and clear, and it's different than any of the others.

Brian: When you say all in and no fallback plan, are you leaving the mayoralty?

Mayor Fulop: When I say that, use your congressional candidates as an example. Both of them ran for Congress this last cycle saying they're going to finish a term and fight Trump. Then the week after, they secured a title to stay in Congress, they said, I'm going to pivot and run for governor. Every candidate has created a fallback political position except for me. I could probably run for mayor again and likely win, I think, but I'm all in on this race and we're more detailed on policy than any of the other campaigns because I think voters deserve that. I think we have a vision for New Jersey that's different than the others.

Brian: Just to be clear, and then we'll go on to the actual issues, are you saying you're not going to run for another term as mayor, or if you don't get to go-- Go ahead.

Mayor Fulop: Yes, I'm not running for another term. I'm all in on the governor's race. Really detailed on policy, substance, how we're going to change New Jersey, and there's no fallback position. The answer is unequivocally, no, I'm not running for another term of mayor of Jersey City or any other political office other than governor.

Brian: All right. You already indicated housing costs would be a central issue that you would deal with. What's your plan for keeping housing affordable or making it more affordable statewide? Where do you start?

Mayor Fulop: Let me start by saying that we've built more affordable housing in Jersey City than any place else in New Jersey. We have the largest redevelopment project in the northeast part of the country. It was $100 million investment for us, 8,000 units, 35% truly affordable. We were the first to do accessory dwelling units, inclusionary zoning. We've done a lot, but when New York City doesn't pull its weight on housing construction, and it puts pressure on the rest of the region, a place like Jersey City or Newark or any municipality can't solve the problem itself.

We've outlined in detail how from Trenton we're going to change the incentive programs, number one, in order to encourage municipalities to build more, more vocal about the carrot and the stick. When you have these housing obligations, Trenton needs to tie dollars around infrastructure to those that are participating. Frankly, they need to penalize those that are dragging their feet. You really need to engage in, and Phil Murphy has not done that.

I think that the opportunities around transit-oriented development and overriding some of the local laws that prohibit that is something that a governor can lean upon. We outlined that I think a conservative goal we can more than double the production per year because it's so low in New Jersey, that I think that with our experience, we could more than double it in that one term.

Brian: How would you fight the resistance in, and if you think this is a fair characterization, more affluent communities in New Jersey, to doing anything to produce more affordable housing because they don't want that economic diversity, which might also be racial diversity?

Mayor Fulop: It's definitely a racial diversity. You know that because people have a different reaction when you say, we're going to construct affordable housing, versus I'm going to construct housing that's affordable. People view that differently, and it's largely because of racism. Look, what we've said is that New Jersey has for 30 years clearly indicated laws for municipalities to build affordable housing. When Republicans say, and pander that they are going to get these municipalities out of it, I say at these town halls, they're lying to you because there's 30 years of case law to say that you have an obligation. Let's work within the parameters of that obligation.

I think there's a couple things that New Jersey can do to make it easier. The first is you have an 80/20 requirement today, which makes it difficult for municipalities, because if you're building 20 units for your obligation, the incentives are very limited, and they allow 80% more in order to justify the 20%. A lot of those municipalities lean back on saying it's too much density for my suburban area, which is probably some merit to that. I think you need steeper incentives in order to limit the growth in those areas, but still do the affordable component. Trenton controls that.

The second thing I would tell you is that there's really no transparency to which municipalities are cooperating versus the ones that have a roadblock. Trenton should be creating more of a dashboard for residents where their municipality is. The current construct allows the NIMBYs to control the narrative entirely, and we need to wrestle that away. In Jersey City, I have a track record of really engaging in some of these hard, controversial, difficult conversations. I think you need to wrestle that conversation away from the NIMBYs.

Then the final thing is that when mayors say that you're forcing me to build 100, 200, 500 additional units, and that's more kids in the schools and more infrastructure needs, I think there's truth to that argument. Trenton needs to incentivize people to construct by providing dollars for school funding, infrastructure, sewers directly tied to those who are cooperating. Like I said earlier, you need to penalize those that aren't because the carrot and the stick is the best way to move local government.

Brian: Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're in our latest interview with a New Jersey gubernatorial primary candidate, the Democratic mayor of Jersey City, Steve Fulop. We're taking your questions for him as well as mine. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text. We've been talking about housing for the last few minutes. Here's a housing-related caller, who I think is going to be a critic of your mayoralty in this regard. Fred in Jersey City, you're on WNYC. Hello, Fred.

Fred: Hello. Good morning. Mr. Mayor, I don't think you've ever met a contractor that you didn't like. I'm now paying more than twice property taxes than when you took office. Why is that not trickling down to people who are long-term Jersey City people to relieve their property tax burden? All of these new businesses down by the river, you can't stand still for five minutes down there without somebody trying to build a building on top of you.

Brian: Mr. Mayor?

Mayor Fulop: Is that a question or a comment, Brian? [chuckles]

Brian: It's obviously a comment.

Mayor Fulop: Let me respond. Let me start with the contractor portion of it. Look, when I came into office, tax abatements were by right, and that's a tax incentive where developers don't pay fair taxes. I was the first mayor to do away with that. We didn't do a tax abatement for eight years. You'd be hard pressed to find another mayor that's been personally sued or sued from his office as mayor from the Kushner's on down, Jared Kushner's family, for tax abatements and incentives, and I fought that. When you say that there's a contractor that I don't like, that is a unfair characterization.

With regards to growth and development, I think supply is important. We built more market rate and affordable housing, and I talk openly about the fact that growth is important. If you're going to suppress housing costs and rent costs, then you really need to increase the supply. Now, with regards to taxes, look, most of your taxes in Jersey City, the increase has been directly related to the schools which we do not control. It's an entirely individually elected board. If you look at your tax bill, you would see that's the portion that's increased. I've been the mayor for 11 and a half years, of which eight of those, including this year, have had no tax increase. I'd put our municipal record against anybody.

Now, regards long-term residents, I cannot control whether you're a long-term resident or a short-term resident, control your taxes. That's not the way the law works. Supply does allow us to keep taxes stable on the municipal side, which we have a good track record on. I appreciate the question, but I don't think the facts really speak to what you're feeling there. Even though I recognize that people can feel that way, I think there's a gap in the actual facts to support that.

Brian: Here's another question from a listener in a text. It says, "How does the mayor see the role of governor as a stopgap against the Trump administration overreach of executive power?"

Mayor Fulop: Look, I think that there's two parts to this conversation. I think you need an aggressive governor that does more than talk. Matt Platkin, who's our Attorney General, has done a great job of leading the charge of attorney generals against these executive orders, and also prosecuting corruption. New Jersey's unique in that the governor appoints the Attorney General, and usually it's a political appointee. I've been very vocal that I would give Matt Platkin the opportunity to stay.

Secondly, beyond rhetoric, I think there's a lot of actionable steps that people in New Jersey can take in order to make sure that we minimize the impact on vulnerable communities in New Jersey. There's the Immigrant Trust Act down in Trenton. We have a legislature and a governor that's overwhelmingly blue Democrat, and we have not been able to move that. There's gender affirming care legislation that hasn't been able to move.

I think that we need to be vocal, litigate, push back against Trump. At the same time, I think we need to focus as activists our priorities down in Trenton because we could put that wall up in order to protect our communities over the next four years, which I think is crucial, and we don't do that well enough.

Brian: Also on the property taxes, listener texts, "Can he speak to his plan for dismantling the redundancy of services, board of education, police, sanitation, et cetera, performed by municipalities that can be consolidated perhaps at the county level?"

Mayor Fulop: It's a good question. This goes back to one of the comments you made at the beginning, Brian, about mayors having experience with unfunded mandates and layers of government. There is a ton of layers of government more than probably anywhere in the country in New Jersey, a lot of municipalities, a lot of home rule issues, county government, a lot of local school boards. I think the governor needs to be supportive of a bill that's sponsored by Senator Vin Gopal in Trenton that forces consolidation of some of the smaller board of educations. I think that will drive down property taxes a significant amount.

I think that as mayor, I have a lot of experience on consolidation and a lot of scars for it. We combine our fire and police into a Department of Public Safety. We eliminated an incinerator authority, put it into the DPW, eliminated a parking authority, put it into the Public Safety Division. We've learned a lot through this. We've also lost some battles. I tried to consolidate the Hoboken and Jersey City Fire Department into one department. I thought it would save us money and them money.

We have 700 firefighters, they have 150. I thought they get better service and better training, and we get a firehouse or two that we needed for coverage of portions of Jersey City. What I learned when I lost that is some of these battles, you got to be strategic in how you approach them. With regard to consolidation, the school district component, you could push more aggressively.

On the municipalities, I think we need to be strategic around taking apart the government pieces that are less confrontational to the public or that they don't think about as much and roll that into the county apparatus. For example, a lot of municipalities in New Jersey have a health department should really be governed by a county health department, animal control, kind of thing that we should take apart from municipalities, put it into the county, cultural affairs, county.

I think there's a lot of opportunities to strip out pieces of local government without creating conflict and politics that you won't be able to achieve that, and then at the same time, drive down property taxes. We've outlined a lot of that in detail on my site. We have more detail on policy than any other of the campaigns because I think people deserve that, and I would urge you to check that out.

Brian: John in Jersey City, you're on WNYC with Mayor Fulop, running for governor. Hi, John.

John: Hey, good morning. Can you hear me?

Mayor Fulop: Hi, John.

Brian: We can hear you.

John: All right. Two questions. First being about congestion pricing, just in terms of what plans are happening there. Actually three, if you have time. I'm curious about the Journal Square development and how that might continue when you're mayor. Sorry, if you are elected governor, rather. Then third being if you could speak about the allegations regarding the HudPost article that came out this morning in regards to the [crosstalk].

Mayor Fulop: I didn't see a HudPost--

Brian: I didn't see that. Which publication did you say, John?

Mayor Fulop: Oh, I got it. I got it.

John: HudPost.

Mayor Fulop: Yes, they inquired yesterday. Let me answer all three of those things. The first one was congestion pricing. Congestion pricing is all of the gubernatorial candidates with the exception of me and Phil Murphy, were opposed to congestion pricing. I stood alone in saying that it was a positive thing for New Jersey, and Governor Murphy, Mikie Sherrill, Josh Gottheimer are taking a wrong approach. It was a political risk for me to do, but I think I was right.

You saw increases in mass transit as far as ridership goes, and you saw congestion going into the Holland Tunnel decreased. I saw that every single day. What I say at these town halls is that if you think objectively from a New Jersey standpoint of who drives their personal vehicle to midtown Manhattan every single day and then pays $2,000 to park per month, it's not working class people. Working class people take mass transit, the buses, take the trains, and we need to get those clean, safe, and reliable.

If you're fair about it, they also use the MTA subway system. They come into Penn Station or Port Authority, and then they use the subway system there, which is an investment that benefits us as well. I think that we need to think about New York and New Jersey from a regional transportation and a regional economic standpoint and not always be fighting over this tit for tat, because at the end of the day, congestion pricing is a good thing from healthcare, good thing from the environment, good thing to alleviate traffic, and a lot of benefits of it. I stood alone and I continue to stand in that situation.

Brian: Let me follow up on that. If I remember correctly, when the head of the MTA, Janno Lieber, was on the show recently, he was pretty angry at something that you had proposed in response to New York's congestion pricing, which is a reverse congestion pricing toll, I guess for coming into Jersey City. Do I have that right?

Mayor Fulop: Coming into New Jersey, not Jersey City.

Brian: Okay.

Mayor Fulop: What I said, Brian, was I said that what's important for New Jersey is to share in the benefits because the mass transportation conversation is a regional conversation, and New York should recognize that, and we should all be adults and have that conversation. I said that New Jersey has leverage points to get New York back to the table because the conversation has gone sideways. The same way they tax New Jerseyans going to New York, you have the same opportunity to do that to New Yorkers coming across the river. There are tons of them that do that every single day.

Not that we want to go there, but you need to get to the table to share dollars. I said all along that the approach of litigation is not a good one, and it proved out that way. If you think about it objectively, we got no money for New Jersey and we lost the litigation. I said this from the beginning, that we need to get them to the table in a constructive way to share dollars.

Brian: I think Lieber took it-- I don't want to put words in his mouth, but my impression was he was taking your proposal as a tit for tat, getting back at New York for congestion pricing. I think you're framing it as constructive for both sides of the river.

Mayor Fulop: Yes. Always I said it's constructive for both sides of the river. I always thought of it as, we need to think about New York and New Jersey's economies as intertwined. I always say this about the tax incentive programs from New Jersey, we're pitching against New York, and it's a race to zero, and removing a thousand jobs on JP Morgan 2 miles, and we're not creating jobs for the region. The reality of the situation is that we should be a shared transportation, shared economy, and really have that cooperative standpoint.

Of course, there are times we'll have difference of opinions, but the congestion pricing conversation and investment in mass transit is really important for the region. I think New Jersey's leadership and some of the politicians that just looked at polling are totally taking that in the wrong direction.

Brian: That was about tolling explicitly that the caller raised. Here's a follow up from another listener in a text that goes more explicitly to the mass transit piece of that, says, "As a daily commuter to New York City, I would love to hear the mayor's plans for NJ Transit, especially at a time when federal funding for projects is far from secure.

Mayor Fulop: We outlined in our transportation plan-- Most people run for office, they talk in platitudes, "I'm going to fund mass transit." We're going to take a different approach. I got a lot of experience on this in Jersey City. The nature of our campaign is being more detailed and honest with people. I do a lot of these town halls and they're growing. We had last night one with 200 people in South Orange, and we do four or five of them a week now.

On mass transit, I talk very specifically about what I will do when I get in and immediately do to fix it. The first is that last year, Governor Murphy put a tax on corporations, $10 million plus. It's a surcharge to fund New Jersey transit. That genesis of the idea was actually our policy paper a year earlier, and the think tanks in New Jersey gave us credit for that, but New Jersey did it improperly. They only put it in place for five years and that will expire in three years. The challenge there is that you can't bond or capitalize against that revenue because it's not a recurring revenue. That needs to be fixed right out of the gate. I'll do that in the first 30 days.

Secondly, the Turnpike widening project that is going through Hudson County, through the Holland Tunnel, it's an $11, $12 billion project, that's with a B. It's the largest infrastructure project in New Jersey. I talk very openly that I think that's an ill-conceived project because it doesn't matter if you build 45 lanes on the Turnpike, the Holland Tunnel is still two lanes. The congestion is still going to exist. I talk very openly about canceling that project and reallocating that money towards mass transit, particularly around light rail in North Jersey and South Jersey, and we have outlined that.

We talk about the privatization of buses that New Jersey Transit has done over the last 20 years and how that's a disconnect between the mission of government and the mission of a private corporation. One makes money and one is mobility. We talk about bringing that in-house. All of those things I've outlined are things that I know I can accomplish without federal help. What we've tried to do with our campaign is not do pie in the sky, say, "Hey, you give me an opportunity. I got experience with this." I'll outline for you in detail why and how I can accomplish it and move forward from there.

Brian: One more call. Mike in Brick, on another topic, you're on WNYC with Steve Fulop, mayor of Jersey City, running for governor. Hi.

Mike: Hi.Good morning. I was curious about the mayor's position on cannabis, specifically the new bill sponsored by Senator Scutari to recriminalize unlicensed cannabis in New Jersey. I'll take my answer off air.

Brian: Thank you.

Mayor Fulop: I appreciate that. Let me start by saying that the first municipality in New Jersey to decriminalize cannabis was Jersey City. We've been an unapologetic advocate. While most municipalities have arbitrarily, those that have moved forward on cannabis licenses on the municipal level in New Jersey, most have set these arbitrary numbers. We'll have three in our municipality. We'll have seven. We'll have two. We'll only have one, and there's no rhyme or reason.

Jersey City has taken the approach under our administration of letting the market decide. The winners and losers will be dictated by market efficiency and who provides the best product and the best service. It eliminates the politics and potential for corruption out of that process. We've embraced it wholeheartedly. Scutari, who's the Senate president, for those of you people that aren't as familiar with it, introduced a bill this week that would limit or set penalties for unlicensed dispensaries or people selling cannabis, and it really feels like a rollback to 10 years ago.

The part that's really disingenuous for the listeners to understand is that when New Jersey moved forward on cannabis legalization a couple of years ago, they couched it as a social justice issue. Critics at the time said, "You're really just concerned with dollars and cents. It's not really about social justice. Just be honest." They said, "No, no, no, it's about social justice and people shouldn't be in jail because of a cannabis arrest."

Here they are rolling that back this week because they're protecting some big businesses and often large corporations that are multistate. I am critical of that legislation. I intend to advocate for it not to pass on the state level. I think my track record on cannabis and decrim and legalization is second to none in New Jersey.

Brian: Just a quick follow up on that, and then actually we're going to be out of time. Can you protect the profitability of the dispensaries and the tax revenue that flow from the legal dispensaries if you're not going hard after the illegal sellers?

Mayor Fulop: I think you can with local police and local law enforcement, but I think the problem with the bill is really how do you characterize the people that are doing something improperly? What do you do with them? Use somebody that's selling alcohol improperly. They don't have a liquor license and they're selling alcohol. How heavy do we come on that person, or we just basically say, "Here's your ticket and stop doing it." I think that the bill that you're looking at now in Trenton comes back pretty heavy-handed at those people that are selling it without a license. That's the balance where people say, "Are you really about social justice or are you about monetizing cannabis for your revenue source for the state?

Brian: That is our latest interview. My questions and yours for a candidate in the New Jersey gubernatorial primary. We're interviewing, we're inviting at least all the candidates, both parties and both the New York City mayoral and New Jersey gubernatorial primaries for today. We thank Steve Fulop, mayor of Jersey City, now running for the Democratic nomination for governor. We really appreciate it.

Mayor Fulop: Thank you.

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