Title: Meet the NJ Governor Candidate: Steve Sweeney

Matt Katz: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Matt Katz filling in for Brian. I used to be a reporter here at WNYC, where I spent many years covering New Jersey politics, which is relevant given our next guest, Steve Sweeney. Brian has been interviewing candidates on both sides of the very crowded race for New Jersey governor. There are six major candidates on the Democratic side, three on the Republican side. Of all of those, three of the nine have so far been on the show.

Our next interview is with one of the Democrats, Steve Sweeney of South Jersey, who is the longest ever serving president of the state Senate. Senate President, It's been a long time. Welcome back to WNYC.

Steve Sweeney: It's good talking to you again, Matt.

Matt Katz: New Jersey listeners, do you have questions for Steve Sweeney, either about his record, or his goals as governor? This is your chance to chat with the candidate and get to learn more. Give us a call, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. You can also text that number. I reported on you for many years in Trenton when you were the most powerful legislator in the state, but you passed on running for governor.

I remember back in 2017, Phil Murphy went on to win a couple of terms. Then in 2021, you were shockingly defeated in your home district by a political neophyte with almost no campaign cash named Ed Durr, AKA Ed the Trucker. Why are you running for governor now and tell us what you've been up to over the last four years.

Steve Sweeney: Matt, you know what people forget is I was the only Democrat in a Republican district for a long time. My district was a 47% Democrat, which means it was 53% Republican. We just got caught up in a tidal wave. In 2017, I had the most expensive legislative race in the history of the country. If you remember, the NJEA was coming at me pretty hard, and I won by 20 points.

I hate to say this, but things happen. I was going to say as happens, but what I've been up to since then is, look, I got knocked down, I got up, brushed myself off, and I started running for governor. There's six of us on the Democrat side, which in my mind gives me a very good opportunity. Matt, it's humbling an experience losing an election, I can tell you that, especially after being on top as long as I was, but look, I'm a union iron worker, didn't go to college, and I wound up being the president of the Senate longer than anybody else in the history of the state, so, so far, so good.

Matt Katz: You mentioned the NJEA, that's the teachers union. I watched you. You work across the aisle with the Christie administration at the time, and fight some very bloody fights with the public employee unions in New Jersey over pension and health benefit costs that you argued were basically bankrupting the state. Do teacher, law enforcement, and other public employee benefits need to be cut further? Do you see that as part of your agenda as governor is still going after those issues?

Steve Sweeney: Matt, we had no choice. The pension was going bankrupt. That's a fact and everyone knew it. 20 years prior to me becoming Senate president, the state of New Jersey put a total of $3 billion in the pension fund. That's what happened to the pension fund besides the bonding and the other stuff. From 2011 to today, we've put $50 billion into the pension fund because of me, because I was willing to take it on. It wasn't politically the smartest thing to do but leaders don't get to choose which issues to deal with and which issues not to deal with.

You were there for those fights. They were ugly. Because I'm a labor leader, that's what I do for a living. At the end of the day, we needed to get the pension funded. It was a tough decision. As you noticed about healthcare, I negotiated after 2017 a new healthcare plan with the teachers that they love. You just don't take your ball and go home after you deal with tough issues. There's still organizations, a group you have to have to work with. Again, I'm proud to be probably, in fact, not probably, I'm the only one in this race right now that's actually taken the tough steps to fix things where we're broken.

Matt Katz: What's most broken in New Jersey now that would be maybe not all that popular in all parts of the state that you would tackle as governor.

Steve Sweeney: The thing that's our budget process, Matt. I was there for several years. I've advocated over the years to change the budget process to multiyear budgeting and consensus forecasting. I'm the only candidate that's running for governor that would be willing to give up some authority as governor to come up with a better budgeting process. It's critical that we do that. You see what's happening this year. They're having unbelievable cuts in the budget because they're going year-to-year and they're not paying attention to the future.

The other huge, huge issue is New Jersey Transit. I was the first one to call, regardless what any other candidate says, it was Loretta Weinberg and myself in 2018, called for a dedicated funding source to New Jersey Transit. I want to congratulate Governor Murphy and the legislature for coming up with a CBT, which is what we were looking at in order to help fund NJ Transit.

The problem is they didn't constitutionally dedicate it, Matt. You've been around the state budget as long as I was. That money will be gone in three years if it's not dedicated, and transit will still have the problem. Because what they do in New Jersey is they raise funds for a certain cause, and as budget problems come along, the funding disappears. It winds up in the black hole of the budget. Coming up with a new budget process and fixing New Jersey transit are critically important.

Matt Katz: We've got some questions for you from voters. Amanda in Atlantic City. Hey, Amanda, thanks for calling in. You're on with Steve Sweeney.

Amanda: Hey, how are you?

?Matt Katz: Good.

?Steve Sweeney: Great, thanks.

Amanda: Good. I'm just curious. I'm 25 years old from Atlantic City. Currently, I have to work two jobs just to afford rent and bills. Just curious on your plans to make the state a little bit more affordable. Thank you.

Steve Sweeney: Number one, we have to stop raising taxes. It doesn't work. We absolutely have to stop raising taxes. We have to start looking at school consolidations. Every school should be PreK-12. Shouldn't have all these small school districts, K2s, 4s, and 6. The bad news is we pay too much in taxes in New Jersey. The good news is there's plenty of places to save. I'm the one K that's had experience doing that.

The other part about affordable being able to live here is I was the prime sponsor of the minimum wage bill, which puts pressure on people that aren't making minimum wage to go up because we indexed it. We're 15, 49. I think we're 48 this year. As inflation goes, it goes up. Again, if the minimum wage goes up, it puts pressure on other sectors to raise their wages.

New Jersey is just too expensive. We have to get real with dealing with consolidations of school districts in a way that doesn't hurt families. Really, we're not going to lose teachers. What we're going to lose is administrations.

Matt Katz: I wanted to ask a couple questions about issues that would come up in a general election if you're facing a Republican candidate. New Jersey is considered a so called sanctuary state. I saw you seem to separate yourself a little bit from the other candidates in the Democratic field. Do you think New Jersey should continue to limit state and local cooperation with ICE?

Steve Sweeney: Matt, I don't think I separated myself a little bit. I think I pretty dramatically separated. Listen, what I said was, if people were listening is number one the sanctuary state stuff just gives people false hope that they're going to stop ICE from doing what they're doing. We have the, I forget what they call it right now, it's not off the top of my head, what the attorney general did, but the Immigrant Trust stuff.

Matt Katz: Immigrant Trust directive, I believe.

Steve Sweeney: Yes. Guess what, it hasn't stopped Trump or anyone else from doing it. Now, what Trump is doing is 1000% illegal. He's doing it without warrants. He's sending film crews to round people up. Sometimes they're grabbing people that are innocent, completely innocent, and we don't know what's going on with it. There's a huge violation there. My position's honestly the same as President Barack Obama. Bill Clinton had the same position, and so did Joe Biden, which is, if you come here as a criminal, you got to leave, and if you break the laws while you're here, you got to leave.

The worst thing we're doing is telling people you're safe, Matt, and they're not, because ICE is acting as a lawless organization right now that they don't have to follow the rules. Like I said, for me, I think my position's dramatically different than the others.

Matt Katz: There's some gray in how this immigration enforcement works out. Let's take a specific scenario, like state police pull over somebody runs a red light. Turns out that person is a undocumented immigrant, maybe an asylum seeker, but has no other criminal record. Should the state police be directed to call ICE and say, "We think we have an undocumented immigrant here?"

Steve Sweeney: I don't think that's necessary to direct that, especially when you have someone that's not done anything wrong, but drive like everyone else in New Jersey, which is too fast.

Matt Katz: [laughs] That's right. Do you drive a little bit too fast, Steve Sweeney, sometimes?

Steve Sweeney: Yes, I do. I admit it.

Matt Katz: [cuckles] Everybody does. Brian in Springfield, New Jersey is on the line. Hi, Brian. You're on with Steve Sweeney.

Brian: Hi, Steve. I'm one of those rare North Jerseyans who knows that South Jersey exists and follow politics statewide. I was curious about your association with George Norcross. I know he's had a lot of influence in your career over the years. I was wondering what your relationship is and if you can shake free from that influence a little bit.

Steve Sweeney: Listen, I've always been my own person. I'm never going to deny my friends. I was friends with the guy. I grew up with him. How can I possibly deny somebody I've known my entire adult life? That doesn't mean that he controls me. Oh, by the way, he just got hit with those charges. He was indicted on those charges. The judge threw them all out. I've read Law Journal 360 that said it was ridiculous. Listen, I'm not going to deny that I know the guy, and I've been friends with the guy, but that doesn't make me any different as far as being my own man and standing up for myself, which I've always done.

Matt Katz: Let me ask a follow up to that. We did a podcast at WNYC a few years ago. Dead End dug into George Norcross. For those who don't know, he's an insurance and hospital executive down in South Jersey, wields a lot of political power behind the scenes, unelected. Our WNYC reporter, Nancy Solomon, had obtained this email from 2014, when you were president of the state Senate. It shows that you were sending a routine list of bills that were up for a vote in the Senate to Norcross asking if anything on the list bothered him. Then he approved the list that appeared with a word like good. Were you seeking his approval for bills to be put up for a vote? Would you do that as governor?

Steve Sweeney: Absolutely not. I'm hard to believe that there was an email that asked permission for bills to be approved. You know what I mean? Is that word for word?

Matt Katz: I believe so.

Steve Sweeney: I don't think so.

Matt Katz: We can follow up on that-

Steve Sweeney: I would love to.

Matt Katz: -but that was what had been reported. Okay?

Steve Sweeney: Matt, I would love to. I would love to, but no, I've never asked permission. I share bill lists with lots of people because there's lots of people that ask for the bill list. Like I said, I've done a lot of bills that George Norcross would not have liked, but you know something, I'm the Senate President. I approve the list. At the end of the day, no one can say anything different.

Matt Katz: Let's go up the turnpike back to North Jersey to an issue on the forefront of people's minds up here. This is congestion pricing. We had Steve Fulop on the air, mayor of Jersey City. He said he's for it. This is congestion pricing, Manhattan. Mikie Sherril, the congresswoman said she was not for the current system. What's your position on it?

Steve Sweeney: I think it hurts New Jersey consumers, drivers. It might be a policy that New York sees as beneficial, but we're not sharing in the benefit. We're only being hurt by it. Mayor Fulop's idea of reverse congestion pricing, so now we're going to hit them both ways. I couldn't believe it. You can't just hit New Yorkers coming into New Jersey, Matt. You know that, right?

Matt Katz: Yes.

Steve Sweeney: If you're going to do reverse congestion pricing, you got to hit everybody. No, I think congestion pricing hurts people traveling in New York City, so I'm not supportive of it, unless there's a better deal somehow that's going to benefit New Jersey, whether it's New Jersey Transit. Looking at it the way it is right now, absolutely don't support it.

Matt Katz: Let's go back to the phone lines. David in Teaneck. Hi, David, thanks for calling in. You're on with Steve Sweeney.

David: Hi, thanks. I live in Teaneck in Bergen County, which is a high living cost county, as are many other counties in New Jersey. I'd like to know what Mr. Sweeney would do at the state level about this and in particular whether what he could do to encourage more building, even higher density building, often in the face of local opposition in order to increase the supply of housing.

Steve Sweeney: Listen, first, I'm the only one that's running this, ever done anything about property taxes. I actually put a 2% cap on property taxes. Unfortunately, property taxes have just increased over 10,000 on average. If we didn't have that 2% cap in place, it would have been 15,000. You're right. We have a huge housing price crisis in New Jersey and it's making it impossible for young people to ever buy homes.

My very first townhouse that I purchased, people would say is affordable housing today because I'm an iron worker. My wife was a hairstylist. They're the things that people don't want in their neighborhoods anymore. I'm like, "We need housing." I think every Democrat candidate's running, we've all agreed we need at least 200,000 more housing units in the state of New Jersey. We need to move quickly on them, and we need to weigh in locally, where they're really waging wars to stop the construction from coming.

Matt Katz: I noticed on your website you are seeking a constitutional amendment to protect the right to an abortion. How would that work?

Steve Sweeney: We put it on the ballot, Matt. It has to pass the legislature. It won't pass with the super majority, which means you would have to pass it two years in a row, which normally the way it works is you pass at the end of one year and you pass it again the beginning of the following year. At the exact same question, in both houses, the governor signs it and it gets on the ballot. People said, "You really don't need that right now. Aren't we afraid of Elon Musk?"

No, I'm not afraid of Elon Musk. I think New Jersey is proud that they have protected woman's right to choose. In fact, I was one of the co-prime sponsors to protect it, one of the strongest laws in the nation. Matt, everyone said Roe v. Wade couldn't be reversed. People make these observations, like New Jersey is always going to be Democrat. We elected a lot of Republican governors over the years as you know. At one point in the '90s, they had all three branches of government. They had the assembly, the Senate, and the governor.

What I'm concerned with is something like that happening again because you always got to protect. If you put it in the Constitution, well, then it can't be harmed. Everyone's like, "Elon Musk will come in with $30 million." So what? People believe in a woman's right to choose. They're not changing my position no matter how much money they spend. I don't think they're changing people in New Jersey's position. We're proud that we protect a woman's rights to healthcare, access to healthcare. I believe that it's the right thing to do.

Matt Katz: I have a question. Again, that's an issue that might not be relevant in the primary, but could become very relevant given the Trump administration and the nature of what a general election against a Republican candidate could look like depending on which Republican candidate ends up coming out of the primary process. Should transgender girls who were born biological males be allowed to play scholastic sports?

Steve Sweeney: Listen, Matt, I absolutely support transgender rights. I think it's absolutely important that we make sure that they get healthcare and we support their rights, but then we have to have a conversation when my daughter's rights are infringed on. This is an area where it requires much more dialogue because everyone's rights have to be respected. As much as we want to respect transgender rights, and again, I want to make sure healthcare is available for transgender community, I also got to make sure that my daughter's rights are protected too.

Matt Katz: You have some concerns if your daughter was on a team in high school, let's say, with a trans girl?

Steve Sweeney: We have to have that conversation, Matt. This is not one of these things that you just give a quick blurb and say, "It's done." This has to be a much more deep dialogue than how we find a way to work this stuff out. Like I said, I support and respect transgender rights, including healthcare, but my daughter's playing on a team, she has rights too.

Matt Katz: I imagine it might be a discussion that goes a lot deeper during a general election. Then I imagine in a general election, Donald Trump would be a major figure. He has proven to be more popular here than I would have imagined. I imagine you also might have known him a little bit back in the day. Given his involvement in New Jersey, is there anything you agree with President Trump on politically?

Steve Sweeney: Oh my God, no. You know something, Matt, he's becoming a big issue in the primary right now. What he's doing is horrible. He's going to destroy the economy, he's tearing families up. Oh, by the way, he said he was going to do this, but you know what the bigger problem is, Democrats have lost their way. The Democrat message, it's the economy, stupid, Matt. It'll be the economy stupid 200 years from now because what are we worried about? What does every family worry about? Do I have a job where I can take care of my family? Can I pay my mortgage? Can I make sure my kids get to school? It's always the economy, so focusing on the economy.

Listen, and you've heard everyone on the Democrat side and the Republican side say, "We're going to make New Jersey more affordable." No kidding. It absolutely needs to be made more affordable, but it's going to take tough decisions, that people, they like the government they have the way it is right now. It's expensive. No one's done more shared services in the state of New Jersey than I did when I was a freeholder director in Gloucester County.

I'm the only county in the state has county wide ambulance. We have county 911 services. They work, they reduce cost. We don't have jails anymore, Matt, in Gloucester county. We closed our jails. We were spending like $28 million a year and we're down to like $9 million a year. We didn't hurt families. We attritioned till we got to where all the people wind up going. There's ways of doing this where you don't have to hurt families, but you can find a way to bring the cost down. You have to know how to do it. I'm the only one running that actually knows how state government works. As I say, I know where the lights are in the bathrooms on day one.

Matt Katz: I'll ask you one more question before I let you go. This is a crowded race. It might be hard for Democratic voters to parse the differences between these candidates. You've laid out your experience for sure. I wanted to just ask where you might view yourself on the political spectrum compared to these five other candidates. You talked about winning a Republican district. You are certainly from a more conservative part of the state than the other candidates. Should New Jersey Democrats, who might be more centrist politically be looking at you instead of the other candidates?

Steve Sweeney: Without question because I am. I'm a moderate, and I've always been a moderate, but it doesn't mean I haven't been on all the important issues that the progressives talk about, Matt. I did minimum wage. That was my bill. Paid family leave, I sponsored. Pay equity for women, I was a sponsor of that. I can go on and on and on. All these issues, it's funny, the progressives said that Phil Murphy was the most progressive governor we ever had in the history of the state. Every bill that he signed, I passed. How am I a super conservative when all the bills that mattered--

Loretta Weinberg said all the things that she did, she could have never gotten done without me. I'm a moderate. Social issues are important too, Matt, but I'm fiscally responsible is the best term.

Matt Katz: Steve Sweeney, former president of the state Senate running in the June gubernatorial primary. It's a pleasure to talk to you again and wish you the best of luck.

Steve Sweeney: You too, Matt. Great hearing from you, man.

Matt Katz: Take good care.

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