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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Now we continue our summer round of interviews with the New York City mayoral candidates. We've heard so far from third-party candidates Andrew Cuomo and Jim Walden, and the Republican Curtis Sliwa. Today, it's the Democratic nominee, the assembly member from Queens, Zohran Mamdani. As with the others, we'll talk for about 20 minutes, then we'll have analysis and your reactions. Our political reporter, Liz Kim, is listening in and standing by for that.

Issues we'll discuss include the assembly member's proposal for free universal child care and how to pay for it, the evolution of his views about the NYPD, school segregation in the city, including the specialized high schools, he went to Bronx Science, and what he might do as mayor regarding the Middle East. We'll touch on the new political development from The New York Times story that President Trump is thinking about intervening in the race on behalf of Andrew Cuomo. Mr. Mamdani, always good of you to come on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Zohran Mamdani: Thank you so much for having me, Brian. It's always a pleasure. I want to express my condolences as well for Leonard's passing.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Let's start with public safety, including the NYPD. After the mass shooting at the Midtown office building that took the life of NYPD Detective Didarul Islam among the victims, your critics highlighted something you posted in 2020 that said, "The NYPD is racist, anti-queer and a major threat to public safety." I know you no longer speak publicly in those terms, but do you still believe the NYPD is racist, anti-queer, and a major threat to public safety?

Zohran Mamdani: No, I do not. I've made clear over the course of this campaign that the NYPD and police officers in general are critical partners in creating public safety for each and every New Yorker, each and every person who calls the city their home. My agenda as it pertains to public safety is to actually make it easier for those officers to focus on the serious crimes that many of them joined the department to address. What we're seeing today is that we have rendered it near impossible for them to do so, as we've asked them to respond to nearly every failure of the social safety net.

When I got back to New York City, the first place that I went was to Detective Islam's home. When I went there, I was reminded of the legacy of sacrifice and service that not only he embodied, but that so many officers embody all across the city each and every day.

Brian Lehrer: You're allowed to change and evolve. Anybody is, but just a little more on this for voters uncomfortable with the past description, who you might want to win over. They might think, "Well, five years ago, it wasn't that long ago when you were saying that other thing." Can you describe your evolution or your perception of the NYPD? What changed and how?

Zohran Mamdani: Some of this stems from the fact that I then became an elected official representing Astoria and Long Island City and worked alongside officers in my own precinct in the 114th, but also in the conversations that I've had with rank-and-file officers across the five boroughs. Those are the very conversations that have animated my views and my agenda as it pertains to public safety. In those conversations, I've learned that so often, while we discuss overtime within the NYPD as if it is purely a fiscal issue, it is in fact also an issue of quality of life for those same officers.

Right now, the department is averaging the loss of about 200 officers every month who are leaving the department for another job somewhere else. One of the leading causes of that is forced overtime, because officers do not know when they will come home or what time their day will actually end. When I've made my commitment to tackle that issue, it's one that is made not only from a place of a fiscal critique of a manner in which that has grown year after year, but also out of a concern for how we can actually retain the officers that we currently have as part of the NYPD.

Brian Lehrer: Last thing on this topic, your website says the Adams administration has failed to deliver the sense of safety and security that everyone should feel. Mayor Adams, a former police officer, as everyone knows, is boasting success on public safety with his approach, because shootings and murders, the main metrics people watch when it comes to violent crime, are at record lows. Why change from his approach?

Zohran Mamdani: Mayor Adams said many years ago that New Yorkers need not choose between safety and justice. What we've seen in the time since then is an understanding purely of safety within the statistics that he's shared and a complete lack of interest in the question of justice. It's incumbent upon the mayor of this city to be able to deliver in the manner that actually responds to New Yorkers' concerns.

What I've heard from New Yorkers time and time again when speaking to them about public safety is a concern also about public transit and around our subway system, and a concern that right now we are not actually responding to the crises of mental health and homelessness. At the core of this vision that we've put forward for our Department of Community Safety is a commitment to deploy teams of dedicated mental health professionals to the 100 subway stations with the highest rates and of mental health crises and homelessness so that we can actually serve those very New Yorkers who, today, too often city government is simply looking to push out of view of other New Yorkers.

Brian Lehrer: All right, next topic. Your proposal for free universal childcare for kids from 6 weeks to 5 years of age. How would that work for the littlest ones from 6 weeks, let's say, until 3k? Would you build city-run daycare centers, or how would it work physically and logistically? I read that New York State standards require one caregiver for every four babies up to one year of age. How would you stand up such a massive system?

Zohran Mamdani: We can find inspiration from what the previous mayoral administration did with universal pre-K, where it was able to stand up a system that has now become a testament to what is possible within city government when you are actually focused on the needs of working people.

What we've seen is that what this will require from us is investing in a manner that keeps the current centers open, that invests and opens additional centers, but also reckons with the fact that this crisis is not just one for families who cannot afford the average cost of childcare, which some estimates have it ranging around $25,000 a year, which is more than it would cost to send your same child to CUNY 18 years later. Also, it's a crisis for the childcare providers themselves. We have seen average salaries in an in-home setting around $10, in a center setting at around $16. These are wages that are pushing New Yorkers out of this city.

What this will require from us is a focus. It is a ability to stand up new infrastructure, much in the way in which Senator Elizabeth Warren was describing childcare as akin to roads and electricity in terms of its necessity within our society and a recognition of the fact that, though costs of universal child care peg it at around $6 billion or so, we have to understand that in the last few years we've lost nearly four times as much money from the absence of that child care just in economic output here in New York City.

Brian Lehrer: On how to pay for this and several of your other affordability and equality proposals, you've proposed to raise taxes on people with incomes over a million dollars a year and raise New York State's corporate tax rate to match New Jersey's. I asked Andrew Cuomo here last week why he would oppose that. Here's a brief excerpt from that exchange.

Andrew Cuomo: The reason you couldn't get it done is the assemblyman's proposal is to raise taxes on corporations statewide, but the revenue would only go to New York City. Also, the comparison to New Jersey is not right. We wouldn't be at the same level as New Jersey under his proposal. We'd be almost double. Yes, sounds good [crosstalk].

Brian Lehrer: How is that? He says 11.5% is theirs, 11.5% would be New York's.

Andrew Cuomo: Yes. We already have a city income tax on corporations, which he's not counting. It would be higher than New Jersey.

Brian Lehrer: Andrew Cuomo here last week. Zohran Mamdani is with us now. How would you react to those two arguments? One, the corporate tax would in reality be higher than New Jersey's because the city has the New York City tax on top of it. Two, that you'll never get legislative buy-in on a statewide tax hike that he says would only be used for the benefit of the city.

Zohran Mamdani: It doesn't surprise me that Andrew Cuomo cannot envision the possibility of actually working with the legislature to deliver relief for working-class New Yorkers because so often what he did when he was in Albany is view himself as a king, one that has to operate without that kind of partnership. My view of leadership is one that works alongside Governor Hochul, that one that works alongside Speaker Carl Heastie, Madame Leader Andrea Stewart-Cousin.

This is just a reflection of what Andrew Cuomo's politics have been for far too long, which is the first instinct being protecting the very donors that have brought him to this position in politics. In 2021, when I first was elected and became the assembly member for Astoria and Long Island City, one of my first battles was with then-governor Cuomo on this very issue of taxing the rich. We wanted to tax billionaires and the most profitable corporations in order to fully fund the very public schools that he had starved over many years. He refused to do so, saying that if we were to pass these taxes, then we would see a decline in the number of millionaires that we have in New York.

What we've seen, in fact, is that we were able to overcome his opposition, raise nearly $4 billion in additional revenue that we could send directly into the classroom, and that we now have more millionaires than ever before. The point here, however, is not just to tax the rich for its own sake, it's to do so to deliver a city that is affordable for all, and right now, what we have--

Brian Lehrer: I understand. Would you address his particular critiques that the legislature would never pass a tax increase that affects taxpayers statewide in those categories, but would only be used for the benefit of the city? If you agree that that would be the case in your proposal and that it wouldn't actually be the equivalent of New Jersey's rate, which I think is how you've been trying to sell this, it would be more because the city also has a tax.

Zohran Mamdani: The particulars of this are very much subject to the very budget negotiations that I will be being a part of in Albany. What I would also say, though, is what his comments miss is the fact that New York City is an economic engine for the entire state, and what is beneficial to the city is beneficial to the state. We've seen that time and again with the ways in which we have to fund the MTA.

It goes beyond counties, not just the five boroughs of New York City and it's a reflection of the fact that for too long, leadership, especially that of Governor Cuomo, has viewed New York City as a footnote in the way in which we need to lead this state as opposed to as the heart of what it is that makes so much possible across the state. That is what Governor Cuomo misses in his critique of this proposal, that we've seen time and again actually meets the needs of working people across the city.

Brian Lehrer: Next topic, the mayoralty and the Middle East. In the State Assembly, you introduced the Not on Our Dime Act to remove tax-exempt status from New York nonprofits that financially support Israel's military or settlements deemed illegal under international law is, I think, how would you would describe it. That bill did not pass in Albany. Many people know your positions on the war in Gaza and equal rights for Palestinians generally. Your opponents all have different views on that, and you're all entitled to those views.

My question is, relevant to this campaign, would you plan to use the power of the mayoralty in any way at the policy level to influence the Israeli-Palestinian situation as you try to use the New York State Assembly?

Zohran Mamdani: My focus as the mayor of this city would be on the welfare of New Yorkers across the five boroughs, in ensuring that we transform the most expensive city in the United States into one that is affordable for the very people who build it and sustain it each and every day. With that position also comes a platform. What I would use that platform to do would also be to recognize the humanity of every single New Yorker, many of whom are deeply feeling the impacts of the horrors in Gaza.

One of my critiques, whether it be of Governor Cuomo or Mayor Adams, has been the lack of application of an equal recognition of that very humanity. That is something that is missing because, as we know, in New York City, with 8.5 million people, there are many different opinions, many different disagreements, but too often, we have allowed those disagreements to then become the pretext for the erasure of humanity of those very same neighbors.

What has been frustrating to me is to see the manner in which, amidst this horror, we have a former governor who joined Benjamin Netanyahu's legal defense team just last November, which was already more than a year into the Israeli military's killing of thousands of Palestinians in Gaza, who then ran for mayor and spent the entirety of the primary smearing anyone who spoke out against these war crimes and the horrors we're seeing in Gaza. Then was rejected resoundingly by New Yorkers at the ballot box in June. Now, is trying and failing to change his approach.

This is all amidst 22 months where the Israeli military has killed an average of 28 children in Gaza every single day. That's a classroom full of kids every single day. That only matters to Andrew Cuomo if the polls tell him it matters. It's a reflection of him as a leader, which is one whose only consistency is the belief in advancing his own ambition. Everything else is negotiable. New Yorkers will see through that cynicism in November.

Brian Lehrer: You're making that contrast. Of course, you would speak your mind as mayor, but my question was about whether you would try to do anything at the policy level, as you tried in the Assembly.

Zohran Mamdani: I've said that where Eric Adams has taken our city out of step with international law, that is something that I would rectify because I believe that this is a city that should embody those same values.

Brian Lehrer: How, for example?

Zohran Mamdani: This is a mayor who promised greater cooperation with Israeli settler leaders. That is not something that I think advances New York City's interests or the tenets of international law, which have been so trampled upon in so many recent months. The agenda that you will find me focusing on is the one that you can also find on my website, which is an agenda to freeze the rent for more than 2 million rent stabilized tenants, to make the slowest buses in the country fast and free, and to deliver universal childcare for each and every family, whether their child is 6 weeks up to 5 years of age. That will be my focus that I wake up every single day to work on.

Brian Lehrer: Last thing on this about the Not On Our Dime bill, The Jerusalem Post described it this way. "New York City mayoral primary winner, Zohran Mamdani, sponsored a bill that would force any New York synagogue or Jewish corporation that gives money to ZAKA, United Hatzalah, or the One Israel Fund to pay a fine of at least a million dollars or risk a lawsuit," from The Jerusalem Post.

We had a caller concerned that you want to fine or sue his synagogue for supporting what he considers non-political humanitarian groups. Hatzalah has a local branch with significant ambulance presence in New York. ZAKA describes itself as emergency response, rescue, and recovery operations around the world. How would you explain your Not On Our Dime Act to that caller or others with respect to those specific concerns?

Zohran Mamdani: What I would do is I would invite that caller and anyone with concerns to read the text of that legislation directly, as opposed to through the reporting of it. What they will find is that it is legislation that seeks to align ourselves with international law, international law that speaks about the necessity of opposing the Israeli settler enterprise, which is trampling upon those same tenets.

What we've seen is that the Joe Biden administration, for example, put forward a number of sanctions of Israeli settler organizations and Israeli settlers, the same ones of which were being funded by nonprofits incorporated here in New York State. New Yorkers deserve to have a system of governance that is embodying those values, those beliefs around the necessity of upholding a universal set of human rights.

Brian Lehrer: Just to be clear, I read the bill through and absolutely you're right, it does not mention Hatzala or ZAKA or your local synagogues, but you hear how The Jerusalem Post interpret it. Can you say that if that bill were to pass, which it hasn't, but if it were to pass, that people's local synagogues would not be fined or lose their not-for-profit status for contributing to Hatzalah United?

Zohran Mamdani: Of course, this legislation is not in any way pertaining to local synagogues and these kinds of fines. These are determinations within that legislation that are made by the Attorney General if it were to be passed. That is at the core of that legislation is allowing the Attorney General the enforcement authority for any kind of violations to that level.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Next topic, school segregation, including the specialized high schools and the SHSAT, the test that determines entry into those schools. Congratulations on being a Bronx Science alum.

Zohran Mamdani: I tried to be a Stuyvesant alum, but I couldn't get in.

Brian Lehrer: You know the stats. This year, for example, out of 781 seats at Stuyvesant, only eight went to Black students in the report that I read. Those stats just came out. In 2022, you told the Jim Owles Liberal Democratic Club, "I support measures to integrate our public schools and fully fund our education system, including the abolition of the SHSAT." This year, you told city and state, "Maintain the SHSAT as the exclusive test for all of the eight schools where it's currently used for admission." Assuming those quotes are accurate, why the change on the SHSAT?

Zohran Mamdani: As you've noted, Brian, I took that test myself. I attended Bronx Science. I graduated and am very much aware of both what those schools offer New Yorkers and the limitations of the manner in which New Yorkers are able to get into those schools. I struggle with it. These statistics that you've cited, and also these are statistics that we've seen in the past, they are jarring.

The reality of this is that, as those opening words you cited say, this is part of a larger crisis of segregation here in our city. We have the most segregated school system in America. What my focus has been over the course of this campaign has been one that ensures every single public school, not just the specialized high schools, get the resources and support that they need to survive, that families can actually afford the city.

Also that we build on the recommendations that we saw, a number of which embodied within the School Diversity Advisory Group, SDAG, within the previous mayoral administration that spoke about the ways that at middle and elementary schools, we can do the hard work of desegregating the system and ensuring that each and every student is actually getting access to a high-quality education.

Brian Lehrer: The specialized high schools are just a sliver of the total student body in the city, as you indicate. Would you try new things to integrate schools more broadly, or lean more on trying to make sure every school has equal resources?

Zohran Mamdani: I think there is a lot of work to be done in ensuring that if we want equal outcomes, we have equal investments. I also think that SDAG does provide us with a set of recommendations that would actually tangibly change this reality, and the fact that no matter what we do in the classroom, if we don't reckon with the fact that 500,000 children are going to sleep hungry every night, then we will continue to see these kinds of struggles. That's endemic of a city where one in four New Yorkers are in poverty.

Brian Lehrer: One more thing, on the SHSAT, your Democratic primary coalition included many east and southeastern New Yorkers, and the current system is fairly popular in those communities. Is your change, to any degree, a matter of supporting the communities that support you?

Zohran Mamdani: My change is a recognition of the enormity of the task at hand with regards to our school system and the need to focus on how we can empower the most students through the set of recommendations that will transform the conditions that then are the basis of that specialized high school test.

Brian Lehrer: All right. We're coming toward the end of our time. We've talked mostly about issues, which, as you know, is what we try to do here. Before you go, let me get your reaction to the latest buzzy campaign story. It's The New York Times report that says President Trump, "Has privately discussed whether to intercede in the fractious race for mayor to try to stop Zahran Mamdani, the Democratic nominee, according to eight people briefed on the discussions." The story says, "In a previously undisclosed call in recent weeks, Mr. Trump spoke about the race directly with Mr. Cuomo, according to three people briefed on the call who were not authorized to discuss it," from The New York Times.

I'll add that Trump denies the report. In any case, the conversation as reported took place before Cuomo got back in the race. The Cuomo campaign says they haven't talked in some time, whatever that means, but your reaction to the story, if it's true.

Zohran Mamdani: This is not just buzzy. This is disqualifying. Donald Trump is attacking the very fabric of our city. We've known for months that Andrew Cuomo's campaign was being funded by the same billionaires that put Donald Trump back in the White House. Now, what this reporting has revealed to each and every New Yorker is that Andrew Cuomo has been in direct coordination with Donald Trump.

The fact is that the president has three candidates in this race, one that he's directly been in touch with, another that he bailed out of legal trouble and now functionally controls, and the final one literally being a member of the same Republican Party. Then there is our campaign, which won the Democratic nomination with the most votes of anyone in the history of party primaries, a campaign which remains laser-focused on an economic agenda to help New Yorkers afford the city they call home. I think the choice is clear. To the point of whether or not this is true, The Times this morning confirmed their reporting once again, and I would believe The New York Times over President Trump.

Brian Lehrer: Last question, and this is going to include a clip when Mr. Cuomo was here Last week, I asked his reaction to the Trump Justice Department's new lawsuit against the city for its sanctuary city laws. Here's the beginning of his response.

Andrew Cuomo: Donald Trump, I don't know there is a strategy besides being very aggressive, because he's a very aggressive personality. He comes in very strong, and his tactic is just to overpower you, and you have to meet force with force. That's what I did through COVID. It worked well. Wasn't pretty, but it worked well. I think the same situation applies here. This is a federal overreach. It's not legal. I would sue. I would sue immediately. I think we'd win. It violates the 10th Amendment.

Brian Lehrer: Cuomo here last week, so he doesn't sound like he's on Team Trump. That's a little of his strategy for dealing with Trump. How similar or different do you think your strategy would be?

Zohran Mamdani: Mine would not be one that include conversations with the president about the best ways in which to stop the victory of the Democratic primary nomination. Mine would be a strategy that focuses first and foremost on the welfare of New Yorkers. When Donald Trump and his authoritarian administration seek to endanger those same New Yorkers, to then stand up and fight back and not have to worry about picking up the phone from Bill Ackman or any one of the billionaires who funded Donald Trump, trying to push back on me, because what I'm accountable to are the people of the city. That is a much broader mandate than serving the very ones that have gotten us into this mess.

Brian Lehrer: Quick follow-up. How would you respond to the concerns that some people have that Trump might want to hurt the city in order to hurt you if you're elected, even more than hurt the city to hurt Cuomo if he's elected?

Zohran Mamdani: We've seen what collaboration brings us through the example of Eric Adams. Even amidst that kind of collaboration, even amidst the bending of the knee in the most abjectingly humiliating ways, we still have a federal administration that stole $80 million from New York City's bank account. We still have a federal administration that passed legislation that will steal food from hungry New Yorkers, throw more than a million off of their health care. We still have a federal administration that is quite literally dragging and disappearing, and detaining New Yorkers, whether it be from their apartment building lobbies or at a routine check-in at 26 Federal Plaza.

That is what collaboration has given us. We need to show that we are able and willing to fight back against Donald Trump. We can see the examples, whether in his first administration or in this one, that those who are most successful at fighting back against his agenda are the ones who are willing to do so. It is time for us to actually fight. That is what this campaign presents New Yorkers.

Brian Lehrer: Democratic mayoral candidates, Zohran Mamdani, we always appreciate when you come on with us. Thank you very, very much.

Zohran Mamdani: Thank you so much for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Listeners, we've now had four of the five candidates in our summer round of interviews. Mayor Adams is the one still to go. Yes, we're in the process of working out a date. We think it'll be by the end of the month. After a break, we'll discuss the Mamdani interview and the state of the race generally with our political reporter, Liz Kim. We invite your questions or reactions. 212-433-WNYC, call or text. 212-433-9692.

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