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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. As we continue our coverage of the New York City mayoral race, we have our latest candidate interview to begin the show today, with Republican Curtis Sliwa. As many of you know, he founded the private citizens anti-crime patrol group, the Guardian Angels, in the 1970s. He's been a longtime radio talk show host, mostly on WABC, also for about a year, in the 90s, here on WNYC.

He was the Republican nominee for mayor in 2021, losing to Eric Adams. This year, he was unopposed for the Republican nomination and he did get about 28% of the vote in the general election the last time out, which could be just enough to get elected this year, given the five way race. So far, Sliwa has refused to join with Andrew Cuomo and Jim Walden in pledging to support whichever candidate other than Democrat Zohran Mamdani is leading in the polls.

As we're doing in this round, we will talk to the candidate for about 20 minutes, then do some analysis of the interview and other campaign news with our political reporter Liz Kim. Curtis, thanks for coming on for this. Welcome back to WNYC.

Curtis Sliwa: My pleasure, Brian. I remember, it was months ago, I was, I think, looking at New York Magazine. You did a piece with Errol Lewis of Spectrum, and you came up with a conclusion that in a four person race for the mayoralty, it was a possibility that Curtis Sliwa, being the Republican candidate, unlike the others, who are Democrats, could potentially be elected the mayor.

I want to credit you, because in the most recent poll, that was the conclusion of this poll, is that it was too close to call between Mamdani, obviously, the leader so far, Cuomo, Sliwa, and the mayor, Eric Adams, who doesn't seem to be able to get any traction in the most recent polls whatsoever.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, that was in The New Yorker, and I did say that. Part of the scenario at the time, before the primary, was that in a very divided race, where perhaps Cuomo was the Democratic nominee, that you, as the Republican, not likely to win in a normal year, or Mamdani as perhaps the Working Families Party candidate, even without the Democratic nomination, could also potentially win as the vote fractures, so yes to all of that.

I guess that leads to my first question, which is that Jim Walden floated the plan that the four non-Mamdani candidates should agree that only the one leading in the polls in September stays in the race. The rest bow out. Governor Cuomo has agreed to that plan. Are you open to it?

Curtis Sliwa: Brian, that is ridiculous. That's not democracy. That's what the billionaires and gazillionaires want. They want to be able to limit the number of people who could compete for the votes of the people of New York City. I don't want to join in any coalition. Look, I believe that Zohran can be defeated on the issues. I'm the one candidate, as you know, Brian, who has said to my compatriots, "Leave his religion alone, leave his culture alone."

This nonsense about him attempting to get into Columbia and how he did it. Well, by the way, he never got into Columbia. He wasn't accepted. He went to Bowdoin College. Stick to the issues. I trust the people to make a decision. I don't trust the billionaires, the ruling class, because they were wrong about Cuomo. They've all aligned themselves now with Eric Adams. Let the people decide. If Jim Walden wants to drop out at 1%, hey, fine, but he's an independent candidate.

Cuomo's an independent candidate. Eric Adams is an independent candidate. If the three independents want to play musical chairs in the Titanic and whittle it down to one, go for it, but I am the mainstream candidate, as Zohran is the Democrat, I'm the Republican. Also, I have what I believe is my pathway to victory, the first ever in electoral politics. We were able to register it as an independent party. Protect animals, no kill shelters, and put animal abusers in jail.

There are no kill shelters in Los Angeles and Austin. We don't have them here. The one thing living in the Upper west side which is not very friendly to Republicans, as you know, Brian, is people will come outside to me and my wife, who's dedicated her life to animal rescue, and say, "I can never vote for you as a Republican, Curtis. It's not personal. I just can't vote for a Republican, but animal welfare, we love animals."

That's the one thing that a Trumper, someone who voted for Biden Harris, could agree on, and then they go back to disagreeing on everything else. I think there are percentages that I can get on that line, in addition to the Republican line, that gives me a pathway to victory.

Brian Lehrer: Well, the reason there's this talk of coalescing around the non-Mamdani leader, or one big reason, is because the rest of you all agree on a meaningful amount of your main policies on the main issues, at least by comparison to him. I want to give you a chance to argue that that's not the case in this short time that we have today. More than contrast yourself with Mr. Mamdani, which you all do, how would you start to say you're most different on, let's say, your main issue of public safety, from Mayor Adams or former Governor Cuomo?

Curtis Sliwa: Well, I listened to Mandami say that we should have free bus fare, and everyone else gets bent out of shape, "Oh, that's socialism." I say, look, we had socialists in New York City, in our City Council, Congressmen from East Harlem who represented people there for many years. We've had Communists elected before. Nothing to be frightened of. The state of Israel, Ben Gurion, it's a socialist country. Rabino is socialist.

Stop the labels and stop the nonsense. Brian, I laugh, because half the people don't pay their bus fare to begin with, because there's no attempt at enforcement against fare evasion. I'm the one candidate who says I would do that. You get on a bus, you got to pay your fare. Eric Adams could have, and has chosen not to do fare enforcement. Andrew Cuomo, when he was governor, could have chosen to enforce fare enforcement. He hasn't.

Mamdani has pretty much said, "Look, half of the fare is not collected to begin with. Let's just subsidize the bus system," so I find that they have more in common on many issues than I do. Let's talk about migrants being able to vote. They're in favor of that, all three of them. I'm opposed.

Brian Lehrer: What does that mean, Cuomo and Adams are in favor of--? When you say migrants, what are you talking about? Naturalized US citizens?

Curtis Sliwa: People who have been here for 30 days, who can establish residency and have proven that they have a means of income, according to the last City Council version that tried to get them to be able to vote, along with green card holders and visa holders. Obviously, the Republicans were able to stop that in the State Court of Appeals, but remember, Adams could have vetoed that legislation. He chose not to. Cuomo is in favor of it.

I believe when it comes to sanctuary city, unlike those three, I say put it to a plebiscite, put it to an initiative. It should be part of charter reform. Last year, many people testified and said, let the people decide. If the people decide they want to remain a sanctuary city, so be it. I believe in initiative and referendum. I don't necessarily believe that all three of these men, who are Democrats, although different, actually believe in the power of the people. I do.

Brian Lehrer: I want to play a clip of Mayor Adams on your primary radio home, WABC. Just yesterday, he was on the Cats & Cosby show in the five o' clock hour. He made the case that he has been a successful mayor on issues that you would probably agree are top issues, and therefore, he deserves reelection. This is about 40 seconds. Mayor Adams, yesterday, on WABC.

Mayor Eric Adams: Public safety was my number one campaign item. We brought down crime, making sure the city was able to deal with the economics, and recovering our economy after Covid, we turned around more jobs in the city history. Our economy has never been as strong as it is now. Broadway had the greatest 12 months in the history of the city. When you look at the things I ran on, you see that I made the promises, I kept the promises. I didn't give New Yorkers broken promises.

Brian Lehrer: Mayor Adams, yesterday. Your response?

Curtis Sliwa: Eric Adams should be in jail with Bobby Menendez. He committed acts of corruption involving fundraising, straw donors, Turkish Americans on behalf of the Turkish government and Erdoğan, many prosecutors who, by the way, Brian, as you know, were committed Republicans and conservatives, many who had voted for Donald Trump, lost their careers based on the principle that they could not be part of the dismissal of these charges by the Trump administration and the DOJ against Eric Adams.

He should have faced a jury of his peers. The President allowed him to walk. Every day now, we see lawsuits being filed by individuals who are part of a criminal enterprise. When Eric Adams took over the police department and put his cronies in, and we can run them down from Phil Banks, unindicted co-conspirator who became deputy, public safety director, to Timothy Pearson, to, obviously, a number of others who--

In these new documents of the former Police Commissioner Conlon, he calls it a basically a RICO enterprise of criminal activity that was going on the 14th floor, the police commissioner's headquarters of Eddie Caban and the 13th floor of Jeffrey Maddrey, chief of patrol, who turn that in into a scene out of Caligula, all based on corruption, buying promotions. The mayor is culpable on that. Trump saved him. He should have been in jail.

Thank God common sense prevailed and he brought Jessica Tisch in, who still has to deal with nightmarish conditions in the bureaucracy of the police department. He has nothing to brag about. He's doing so badly in the polls, because when you walk in the streets or you ride the subways, as I do, the number one complaint about Eric Adams is corrupt, corrupt, corrupt.

Brian Lehrer: In fairness to Adams, we have to say accused, not convicted, because that case was dropped. I guess what you were just referring to was the new lawsuit by Adams, former interim Police Commissioner Thomas Donlon, alleging corruption. He says Adams and some of his top people ran the department as a "criminal enterprise," basically giving promotions to loyalists, earned or not. The lawsuit calls it a "massive unlawful transfer of public wealth." Briefly, your opinion on that new lawsuit.

Curtis Sliwa: Oh, and look, before that, there were four men of honor who had served admirably in the department, this was two weeks ago, who were segued out of the department to make room for appointees of Eric Adams. Except the appointees did not have any of the qualifications necessary to fill those roles. Now you have the interim police commissioner who had to come in and try to put everything back together again after he put Eddie Caban in.

There was just incredible corruption taking place on the 14th floor of 1 Police Plaza. Even the IRS rated the 14th floor, in addition to the FBI. Look, President of the United States gave him a pass, without which Eric Adams, I believe, would have been found guilty by a jury of his peers. He's lucky to be out. He cannot ever have conflict with the president. He said so. "I will never criticize the president. I will never have anyone in my administration do that." He has been rendered impotent as a result.

If you notice, his favorable standing in the Black community when he ran against me in 2021 was 90%. He's down at 16%. Donald Trump is a very, very successful president in the eyes of many Americans around the country, and in parts of New York State, but does not help you in New York City. Unfortunately, he has sacrificed his independence and autonomy as mayor in order to be at the beck and call of the President of the United States, who is the leader of the very party that I represent in this election.

Brian Lehrer: Well, what about you in that respect? You're the Republican nominee. What do you say to New Yorkers who think, "Well, if he's the mayor, President Trump is going to have free reign to do whatever he wants to New York, because they're in the same party, and no Republicans are standing up to Trump," so maybe Andrew Cuomo, for those who don't want Mamdani, see that problem with Adams, and maybe see the same problem with you.

Curtis Sliwa: Well, Andrew Cuomo has made that his selling point. He's come back. He is sort of like-- apologize for not running a strong campaign. The Rose Garden strategy. I don't know if he has enough energy in the tank to do that, but his selling point was he could stand up to President Trump. Let's just look at NYCHA. I'm in and out of the projects on a regular basis. 90% of the budget comes from the federal government. There's no doubt the Trump administration has plans to slash that budget.

Andrew Cuomo was the head of HUD, secretary of HUD under Bill Clinton. He knows how vital the federal government is. Now, you got to pick your opportunities to disagree with the president and the administration, and try to find compromise, but if you come at Trump like, "I'm tougher than you," New York City loses. Nobody questions whether I'm a tough guy, but toughness is not going to win the day. You have to be compassionate, caring, and you have to dare to care.

I think at this level, I can sit down with the administration and say, "Look, I'm going to publicly oppose you at this level because it is not in the best interest of all the citizens of New York City, many of whom who did not vote for me." I have to be in opposition, but you could be respectful in terms of that. Look, I'm not for congestion pricing. Obviously, the administration is opposed to congestion pricing. Kathy Hochul continues to fight that battle in court.

That's probably where congestion pricing will eventually be adjudicated and decided upon, but you can do things respectfully. You don't have to always have this pretense that we're two guys in a room and we're going to be pumping chests, because guess what? In many instances, the federal government will [unintelligible 00:15:16].

Brian Lehrer: [crosstalk] What you just gave was an example where you agree with the president. He's against congestion pricing, too. How much do you agree with the way the president is cutting funds to the city, including on Medicaid, as one example? Governor Hochul says the state can't possibly make up all the money to the thousands of people who will lose their coverage.

Curtis Sliwa: It's no doubt. Look, that's a problem that Senator Hawley has in Missouri, with the cutting of Medicaid. It's a problem that individuals have representing constituencies all over the country. I know how incredibly important that is to our constituents here. You have to be able to fight for that in the big, beautiful bill the cuts were made. Unfortunately, in this budget that just passed, there was no money put away in the rainy day fund.

It was all basically a budget hoping to benefit Eric Adams in partnership with Adrienne Adams and Justin Brannan, who was outgoing. Now, there was a partnership of types, but if you look at the Citizen Budget Commission, which has looked at my plan, which calls for certain cuts in agencies in which we're not getting the appropriate kind of service and response for our investments, you'll say, "Well, that's balance."

In terms of Eric Adams, there is no balance there. You can be adversarial to the president, fine, but you will end up paying the price. You also can't just fold consistently to the demands of Washington DC nor the city Council, where I would be a minority. Most of the City Council as we see is very liberal progressive. I spent a good deal of my time raising two sons with Melinda Katz, who is now the Queens DA, the Democratic Queens DA.

When she was a City Council person, I remember negotiations she would have with the mayor's office. Discretionary funds. A mayor must visit the district. They must have a town hall meeting, even though it can be very adversarial, and find out what are the needs of the constituents. How can I assist this City Council person? You don't see Eric Adams doing that. Let's face it, Brian, you want to get Eric Adams into your district, open up a nightclub, and he'll be there to the break of dawn.

Brian Lehrer: To be clear, are you saying all of that in the context of supporting the so-called big beautiful bill with its healthcare cuts to New York City as well as other places, and that it's the city that has to tighten its belt to adjust, or do you oppose the cuts as the President and Congress are imposing them?

Curtis Sliwa: It's a combination of those. You go to court and fight your cause. You will win some, you will lose some, but also, you have to be realistic and know the cuts are coming. You should have put more money aside in the rainy day fund instead of spending money that is just bad money following other bad money. Perfect example. Department of Education. $41 billion growing budget. 1/3 of our overall budget of $116 billion. 100,000 less students.

1/3 of the students don't even go to school each day. At 4th grade level, two thirds of the students are not reading, writing or doing arithmetic at grade level. We have 200 schools operating that have less than 200 students. There's no desire to do consolidation to save on money spent. A bureaucracy that exists of deputy chances, 13. 50 Department heads at the Tweed Courthouse. Oh, a perfect location, right?

The old days of Tammany Hall, the waste, and the corruption, and nobody can seem to find out what they're doing with the money. To this day, the hard working teachers still have to reach into their pocket to pay for basic supplies in the classroom. That agency has to be analyzed from top to bottom, it is a house of patronage and it's hurting the teachers, it's hurting education, and most importantly, it's hurting the children.

Brian Lehrer: In the context of what you said before, about opposing congestion pricing, I'm sure you're going to say there's waste at the MTA too, but not probably at the level of the amount that congestion pricing and the bonds that they're able to take out on the future revenue from congestion pricing would distribute to the MTA for capital improvements and repairs. What would your plan be, if you care about those capital improvements for New Yorkers to mass transit?

Curtis Sliwa: Well, first off, I think we all agree the city has very little input on that, other than in the transit system providing the public safety through the transit police and giving our fair share of contributions to the system. It is a state run agency. I saw my adversary, Andrew Cuomo, just yesterday, in a different interview, think that the mayor should have control of the subway and bus system. That's outrageous, because I remember when Cuomo was the governor in charge of the MTA in the summer of 2017.

Derailments, fires, total chaos, corruption like there was no tomorrow. Let the governor at the state run the MTA. The mayor has their focus. Congestion pricing, the monies raised, almost equals the amount of money that we lose on fare evasion. I think we have to be very pragmatic about this. You want to encourage people to use mass transit. I got it. Nobody rides the subway more than me. None of the candidates combined ride the subway more than me. I'm in there every day, campaigning.

It's the best focus group around because you get a mixture, the melting pot of New Yorkers, and you can't escape once the doors close. You have close to $800 million who are out the MTA budget, in which people are not paying their fare. There's no real attempt to enforce rules that prevent fare evasion. Are you going to subsidize the fare in a different way? You want to encourage people not to bring vehicles in? I walk the streets south of 60th street, where that tax is imposed.

Do you see how many storefronts are closed up with that brown paper wrap? When you talk to the merchants, they say, "We don't have enough foot traffic now. We don't have people coming in and out, engaged in commerce." We're hurting small merchants at the expense of supposedly having a better place to live because there's less traffic. How are you encouraging more people to ride the subway? Most people I come across do not feel safe on the subway, especially women, who feel that the pervs are bothering them.

They're not safe at night. Quite frankly, now Hochul is arguing with Adams about a continuation of spending overtime to keep the cops patrolling the platforms and in the subway stations at night. This is an endless situation that they're not prioritizing. I, as mayor, that's my priority, dealing with subways. I dedicated my life to subway safety, and I'd be able to, in cooperation with the state, show how we could cut costs but get more public safety benefits.

Brian Lehrer: On the business impact of congestion pricing, I know I've seen other reports that say local businesses feel they're doing better, but we'll leave that as a point of dispute between you and others for now. Qbout the Guardian Angels, which you just brought up, obviously, your claim to fame early on, and for a long time. The website emphasizes serving communities with volunteer initiatives, but some use the term vigilantes, and there have been some issues.

You admitted faking crimes early on in your career for publicity. Just last year, while you were being interviewed by Sean Hannity on live tv, other Guardian Angels, as I understand it, subdued a man you called a migrant and a shoplifter, but who, it turned out, was neither of those things. Is there a credibility issue there?

Curtis Sliwa: I wouldn't say credibility, because our volunteer service continues, when you're down in the subways, The Guardian Angels are caring for the homeless and the emotionally disturbed, something that the city and state is not doing. We're not only patrolling for the purpose of public safety and making people feel safe on moving subway cars, which the police, for some reason, are not doing, but we're providing water, we're providing nutrition, we're providing clothing to people who live in a subway system.

Shame on all of us that we allow our own citizens to ride on a subway car round and round and consider that their home. Our shelter system is in disrepair. It is not well run. I've been in two thirds of the shelters of New York City. MICA shelters for the emotionally disturbed, men, women shelters, family shelters. There are some that will run quite well. There are many in which, no, I don't blame the men and women for wanting to stay out in the streets, in the parks and the subways, because it's Darwinian survival of the fittest.

We got to get our house in order. We must take care of those who can least take care of themselves, because there, by the grace of God, Brian, go any one of us. Too many New Yorkers walk past these people, many of whom were incapable of taking care of themselves. Their physical and mental capacities have been depleted, and we allow them to live like this. Mahatma Gandhi said something that I've applied because I do believe in protecting animals.

He said, "A society that does not take care of its animals does not take care of its people." Look at New York City, walk the streets, see the men and women who are unfortunately impaired, and we do nothing to help them. That's where caring, concern, and the concept of being out there for the people is what has caused me to relate to them. Have I made mistakes as leader of the Guardian Angels? Of course.

Could I have done things another way? Of course, but unlike all the other candidates who are omnipotent, like Andrew Cuomo, who feels he did nothing wrong with these sexual harassment charges, with the unnecessary death of elderly under his care during the lockdown and pandemic, based on his executive order, or Eric Adams, who does not in any way, shape or form acknowledge the corruption inherent in police leadership that he's responsible for, I will fall on the sword, Brian.

And when I'm at fault, when I'm guilty, I have no problem apologizing and trying to learn from my mistakes. That's what life is like for all of your listeners out there right now listening to you, is, you make mistakes, you learn from it, and try not to make those mistakes again.

Brian Lehrer: Last question. I've been focusing on you versus Adams and Cuomo on the assumption that that's your main competition. Circling back to where we started, if you all consider Mr. Mamdani such an existential threat, why push it, if you're behind Adams or Cuomo in the polls in mid-September, rather than agreeing or leaving the door open to agreeing that at that point, you would consolidate around whichever of the three of you is the clear leader?

Curtis Sliwa: That is ridiculous. That's not democracy. People wanted me to be the Republican candidate. They've invested in the campaign, campaign finances, that are monitored, Thank God, you get an 8 to 1 match. It can level the playing field from the billionaires and zillionaires who want to play chess and determine who the next mayor is. Look, if those other candidates want to drop out of the race, that's fine. I don't fear Zohran Mandami. I'm prepared to debate him on the issues. We have real differences. I'm in his neighborhoods.

I'm in the neighborhood of Long Island City, that he won by 72%. The Lower East Side that he won by 70%. He used millennials who are motivated, and Gen Z's, that I have, who think differently. That's where the battle should be waged, on ideas. Too many of those that are supposedly on my side spend all their capital talking about who's going to drop out, attacking the Muslim faith, attacking his culture, attacking his entire lifestyle. He's only 33 years old. I read some things about Zohran Mamdani. I said, could anybody be that bad?

Let the people decide. Let's have forensic debate. I am willing to accept what the people decide, but I'll tell you this. Unlike Eric-- excuse me, Eric Adams, who lives in Fort Lee, or Andrew Cuomo, who's lived in Mount Kisco, I'm a New Yorker through and through. If I lose, I believe, improve, don't move. I'm going to stay here. I'm going to continue to work in the best interest of New York City residents. Right now, my focus is to debate all of these candidates and let the people decide.

Brian Lehrer: The Republican candidate for mayor of New York, Curtis Sliwa. Thank you so much for your time. We appreciate you sitting for this.

Curtis Sliwa: Anytime, Brian.

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