Title: Meet the Mayoral Candidates: Andrew Cuomo

Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. We'll begin today by continuing with our round of interviews with the New York City mayoral candidates. Today, it's former governor, New York State Attorney General, and Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, Andrew Cuomo. You all know he came in second in the Democratic primary to Queen's assembly members, Zohran Mamdani.

Mr. Cuomo is now running on an independent line called the Fight and Deliver Party. You probably also know he has embraced the idea that the four candidates, other than Mamdani, agree to endorse the leader among them in September. As we've been doing in this round, we'll have about a 20-minute interview and conversation followed by analysis of the segment and the race overall today with New York Times metro political reporter Jeff Mays and with you.

Mr. Cuomo. Thanks for coming on again. Welcome back to WNYC.

Andrew Cuomo: Good to be back. Thank you very much, Brian, for having me.

Brian Lehrer: I'd like to start with Friday's news about New York City and the Trump administration. They are suing New York City, as you know, over its sanctuary city policies, saying the federal government controls immigration policy and the city has no legal right to restrict local law enforcement contact with immigration enforcement. If you're elected mayor, how aggressively do you plan to contest that suit, if at all?

Andrew Cuomo: There's only one strategy dealing with President Trump, and I know because I've done multiple rounds with President Trump. I was governor when he was president the first time, and we went through COVID, which was one of the most intense situations government has had to deal with, period. The federal government and the state interaction was very important, and I had vehement disagreements with President Trump, as you recall, about handling COVID in general, his advice on COVID, and the relations with the state.

Donald Trump, I don't know, there is a strategy besides being very aggressive, because he's a very aggressive personality. He comes in very strong. His tactic is just to overpower you, and you have to meet force with force. That's what I did through COVID. It worked well. Wasn't pretty, but it worked well, and I think the same situation applies here. This is a federal overreach. It's not legal. I would sue. I would sue immediately, and I think we win. It violates the 10th Amendment.

He did this all across the country. He did it to the state of Illinois, Illinois challenged it, and they won. I would do that immediately, and I believe that we win. It violates the 10th Amendment. I understand his politics and what he's trying to do with migrants. It's the same tactic that he ran on in the presidency, but it's a pour into New York, and I would fight and defend our sanctuary city laws.

Brian Lehrer: A related issue is that Mayor Adams has taken the Trump administration position that people here illegally do not have due process rights under the Constitution before being deported if they're accused of a crime. He said in December, "Americans have certain rights. The Constitution is for Americans." My question is whether you think people should be deportable when they're just accused of a crime or only if they are convicted. Which position do you take?

Andrew Cuomo: Obviously, they are entitled to due process. Brian, the Mayor Adams position with Trump is a different conversation, but you could just have ended the sentence saying, "Mayor Adams has taken the Trump administration's position," period. End of paragraph. That's what Mayor Adams has done. He entered into a relationship with Donald Trump to drop the charges against him, and we understand that. I disagree. We understand what he did. I don't accept it, but I disagree 100%. I believe they're entitled to due process and that we must enforce that.

Brian Lehrer: Let me ask you about the Republican candidate, Curtis Sliwa. He's actually right behind you for second place in a couple of the polls now. What do you say to voters who might be thinking, "Enough with all these professional politicians. I'm going to give Curtis Sliwa a chance."?

Andrew Cuomo: The way you say that professional politician has a negative connotation. I wouldn't say put them all in a group. I think you need to know how government works to make government work. It's counterintuitive, and it sounds romantic to say, "Well, I want a new person who's going to come in and blow up the system." We've tried that many times, but actually, you have to know what you're doing in government. It's not that easy. You don't just come in and roll in a grenade and blow up the system, and you don't make promises that you can't actually deliver.

I don't make promises or proposals that I can't deliver. I said I was going to be the first big state to pass marriage equality. We did. I said I was going to build LaGuardia. We did. You need to understand how this works, how the federal government works, how Congress can help, how you expedite political decisions with the New York City Council, how you finance housing.

There is a knowledge base that you have to have here. You can have good intent that you're going to make all these changes, but if you don't know how to make change, it fails. Then you have more unfulfilled promises, more public cynicism. I know how to make government work. I know how to make positive change. I have proven that over and over and over again. That's what matters at the end of the day. Did you make progress, or did you not make progress?

Brian Lehrer: You say Adams is beholden to Trump, Sliwa doesn't have the experience. Of course, he's the Republican candidate. Which one do you think would be worse from a Trump and New York perspective, Curtis Sliwa or Eric Adams in terms of Trump being able to run roughshod in various ways over the city?

Andrew Cuomo: Mayor Adams is in a particular situation. Mayor Adams has explicitly entered into an agreement with President Trump, right? The condition of dropping the charges against the mayor was for the purpose of the mayor's ability to cooperate with the Trump administration, specifically on immigration policy. That was explicit. I don't really know Mr. Sliwa's politics or Mr. Sliwa's relationship with Trump. I don't know. They're both Republicans, but I don't know anything beyond that.

Brian Lehrer: Okay. We've been talking about you versus Adams and Sliwa. Now let's talk about you versus Zohran Mamdani. His campaign, as you know, is built on the issue of affordability. He emphasizes universal child care from six months to five years, free buses, and freezing the rent for rent-stabilized tenants. You're all debating the pros and cons of his ideas, but can you tell our listeners what are your central proposals to make New York City more affordable?

Andrew Cuomo: Look, there is no doubt that affordability is a major issue. It's a national issue. It's not just New York, and it's a market-generated issue. The key issue on affordability is housing, is rent. The good news there is this is a government-created problem, Brian. This is not an act of God. This is an act of failed leadership. I was the HUD secretary, as you mentioned in your introduction, Housing and Urban Development under President Bill Clinton. We know how to build affordable housing. I built affordable housing in my 20s. It's the simplest, most basic form of construction. We just haven't done it.

What we've done is we have gotten into a situation where there is no supply of affordable housing. Our housing vacancy rate is about 1.4%, which means the market does not work. It means you must pay what the landlord demands because there is no vacancy, and if you don't take it, the next person will. There is no short answer besides building more housing and building it quickly, and making government work and break the inefficiencies, and reform that government, so you actually get the approvals done in time. New York City can take you four years to get a building permit.

Brian Lehrer: What would you say to voters then who might be thinking, well, you were HUD secretary under President Clinton, you were governor for 10 years, and we have this situation that you were just describing. You don't have a successful record in this area.

Andrew Cuomo: Because I wasn't the mayor of New York, and I wasn't in charge of building affordable housing in New York. If I was mayor of New York, we would have housing. As I said, I built affordable housing in my 20s in New York as HUD secretary. I did it all across the nation successfully, and I can do it in New York, right? In New York City, I was responsible for building airports. I built LaGuardia, I built Moynihan train station, I built the Second Avenue subway, I built the new Kosciuszko Bridge, new Shirley Chisholm Park. Those were all much harder than building housing.

I can cut the red tape. I know how to do it, and I can get it done. Freeze the rent. We did that with de Blasio. De Blasio did freeze the rent several times. Obviously, it didn't work. That's why we're here, right? Build hundreds of thousands of units of housing quickly, and we can. You have vacant units we're not even bringing online. You have public housing developments all across the city that have green space. You have a thousand vacant city sites.

Brian Lehrer: How about child care? Do you have anything to compete with Mr. Mamdani on that?

Andrew Cuomo: Child care is going to be a question of a government-provided subsidy, one way or the other. I started 3-K on the state side. I think that was a great advancement, and I think we have to continue that and expand that, but that is just a government-subsidized program. The market is not going to do that for you. That's government subsidy prioritizing child care, which, as I said, I started as governor, 3-K, and that is a major cost driver for people. I said during the primary election that I would provide the government funds to do that because it's good as an education policy and a child care policy, as well as an affordability issue.

Brian Lehrer: What about the younger kids? I know people are saying Mr. Mamdani couldn't get all this through Albany. That's politics. His supporters would say, "He's aiming high, and that's inspiring. Let's see how much he can get." In fact, they cite former Mayor de Blasio. He said here recently, supporting Mamdani, that few people believed he could get universal pre-k enacted. Too pie in the sky, but he did.

Andrew Cuomo: No, he didn't. The state did it. I did it. We had done it before Mayor de Blasio proposed it. That was a statewide program.

Brian Lehrer: He got it through Albany with your help, is the way that worked out, but he was driving that train, wasn't he?

Andrew Cuomo: No, it was a state-provided program. It was done by the state. The city is a creature of state government. Most of the things that the mayor or mayoral candidates are proposing must be done by the state.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Mamdani also frames his policies in terms of fighting economic inequality. That's the main point of democratic socialism, as you know, with more billionaires than ever in New York City, but also a larger and larger percentage of the people finding the city too expensive to live in. Do you know the rough ratio of Black families' wealth to white families' wealth in New York City?

Andrew Cuomo: I know it's grossly unjust. I don't know the current statistic.

Brian Lehrer: According to the city comptroller's office, as of 2022, the median white household net worth was $276,000. For the median Black household, it was $18,000. That's around a 15-to-1 wealth gap according to the city controller's office. Do you have any real signature policies for making a real difference on that?

Andrew Cuomo: Look, I think there's two ways to do it. There's no doubt that it is a gross disparity. The income inequality, I think, is a corrosive social factor all across this country and is driving a real discontent, which you see both on the left and the right, by the way. I think one of the reasons Trump resonated with that far right is the income inequality. The system has abandoned them. I think you see it on the left, and it is a very real social phenomenon. It's violative of our basic beliefs, especially as Democrats, right? Social justice, racial justice, economic justice.

Now, the question is, do you focus on just redistribution of income, which we do. I passed the most progressive tax code in the United States, right? The wealthiest 5% of New Yorkers pay about 50% of the taxes, so we are redistributing income through our taxing system. I believe at the same time, you have to bring up the bottom. That's more education, that's more opportunity, that's more jobs. Where I disagree with the socialist anti-business philosophy is they demonize business and economic growth. I don't. I think New York is about entrepreneurism and attracting businesses and attracting growth. More jobs, more higher-income jobs, the better.

The specific of this was, when I worked very hard to get Amazon to come to New York, we won a competition to bring a second national headquarters of Amazon. They were going to bring it to Queens, was going to bring 25,000 jobs to Queens, jumpstart the high-tech industry here in Queens. Average salary $150,000. The Socialists opposed that, and we lost Amazon, and we lost those jobs. You can't be anti-business because you will bankrupt New York. We are based on business.

Brian Lehrer: On the progressive tax system that you cited, Mamdani's campaign says, "Zohran's revenue plan will raise the corporate tax rate to match New Jersey's 11.5%, bringing in $5 billion, and he will tax the wealthiest 1% of New Yorkers, those earning above $1 million annually a flat 2% tax. Right now, city income tax rates are essentially the same whether you make $50,000 or $50 million. That's quoting from Donnie's campaign website. That's how he wants to fund universal childcare going further than I think you've articulated to go down to six months.

Make your case if you disagree. Many New Yorkers might hear those Mamdani numbers and think that small increase on million-dollar incomes is fair and won't hurt their lifestyles to give everyone else universal childcare and the like. Why should we tax corporations less in New York than New Jersey does?

Andrew Cuomo: First of all, I raised the millionaires tax in New York, and I dropped the tax rate for the middle class. When I say we made it the most progressive tax code in the country, that's how we did. We raised the taxes on millionaires. We have a millionaire surcharge, and then dropped the taxes on the middle class. The proposition you mentioned would all have to be done at the state side. Governor Hochul has already said that she couldn't get it done. Two things on it.

Brian Lehrer: She doesn't want to get it done. Why is it bad on the merits?

Andrew Cuomo: The reason you couldn't get it done is the assemblyman's proposal is to raise taxes on corporations statewide, but the revenue would only go to New York City. He's an assemblyman. He knows how the legislature works. A Buffalo assemblyman or a Long Island senator is not going to raise taxes on their corporations to give the money to New York City. That is not going to happen. Otherwise, it would be a former assemblyman from Buffalo and a former senator from Long Island City. Also, the comparison to New Jersey is not right. We wouldn't be at the same level as New Jersey under his proposal. We'd be almost double. So, yes, sounds good.

Brian Lehrer: He says 11.5% is theirs. 11.5% would be New York's.

Andrew Cuomo: Yes, we already have a city income tax on corporations, which he's not counting, so it would be higher than New Jersey. It is an impossibility that a state legislature would raise statewide corporate taxes dedicated only to New York City. My father used to say we need ideas that are good and sound, not that sound good. So, yes, sounds great. Also, impossible on a governmental level. That's the differential. The reason it's dangerous then, Brian, is because none of it happens, none of it works, and then you just disillusion the public, and more importantly, you made no progress. Nothing will have happened.

Brian Lehrer: We're coming close to the end of our time. You have proposed that whichever of you, or Adams, or Sliwa, or Jim Walden, is polling the highest versus Assemblymember Mamdani, by mid-September, the others should halt their campaigns and support that person to make sure Mamdani loses. After what you've been saying here about Eric Adams, how he's beholden to Trump and Sliwa, not qualified, basically, you said-- and he's a right-wing Republican talk show host, are you really firm in your belief that the Democratic nominee who inspired a big turnout is a bigger threat to the city's well-being?

Andrew Cuomo: Put Mr. Sliwa aside because, as I mentioned, I'm not really considering him in this discussion. This was really about myself and Mr. Adams. We have both said that we believe the assemblyman's policies would not work. We have both said that we think his lack of experience and proposals frankly just don't make any sense for anyone who actually understands what's real and what's feasible. If that's what you believe, and you're genuine about it, then myself and Mr. Adams should say the stronger candidate against Mr. Mamdani should go forward, because in a multi-candidate race, it's a much tougher race.

If I'm not the stronger candidate, then yes, I would defer. I think Mr. Adams should also, because otherwise you're just saying, "This is about my ego and I'm going to go forward even if I'm just a spoiler." I do think Mr. Mamdani's proposals don't work. I do think we have significant problems in this city right now, all created by us, but the solutions are going to come from us. We have to make this government in the city work because the government created the problems. This is not an act of God. This is not 9/11. It's not the fiscal crisis, it's not COVID, it's not Hurricane Sandy.

We didn't build the affordable housing. We haven't addressed public safety. We defunded the police. I don't think anti-business socialist philosophies are going to work. We don't do a lot of farming in New York City. We do business, and we want to attract new businesses and grow and provide that opportunity. The strongest candidate against Mr. Mamdani should go forward if what Mr. Adams believes he's sincere about. I'm sincere about what I believe, and that's why Governor Paterson pledges, I call it, really cuts to the chase, "Is this about the city of New York, or is it about your ego?" That's what he gets at.

Brian Lehrer: The Governor Paterson pledge, as you called it, or the idea of the rest of you consolidating behind one, included Curtis Sliwa. Sliwa said on Fox the other day that you should, "Stay in the Hamptons with the billionaires. Andrew Cuomo, you're not ready for primetime. I'm in the streets, I'm in the subways. I'm getting the millennials, I'm getting the Gen Zs." It's not just Mamdani, but also Sliwa, who you seem to be giving a little bit of a pass here, who's tarring you with being the candidate of the billionaire class. What do you say to Sliwa about that, considering who your donors have been compared to his?

Andrew Cuomo: I don't know who his donors are, and he's a Republican, so I don't think he would really care what Governor Paterson says. The Republicans have their own politics and their own philosophy.

[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: If I may, are you saying or are you not saying that you'd rather have Curtis Sliwa than Zohran Mamdani?

Andrew Cuomo: No, I don't consider Curtis Sliwa a viable alternative, period. Him saying that I'm not ready for primetime is sort of laughable since I'm the only one here who's actually been on primetime. I'm the one who took this state through the greatest crisis it's faced in modern political history, through COVID. I've actually done more infrastructure development, passed more national progressive firsts, marriage equality, highest minimum wage law in the United States, most aggressive anti-discrimination laws. I'll leave the right-wing radio shows' hosts to their rhetoric.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Last question. When you were in the WNYC New York 1 debate, you couldn't say whether you ever were in a mosque during your 10 years as governor. Have you been in one during the campaign?

Andrew Cuomo: No. I said in the debate, Brian, that I have visited mosques. I think it was you or someone--

Brian Lehrer: It was [unintelligible 00:25:44] Lewis. I thought you said that you couldn't remember whether you had ever.

Andrew Cuomo: No, no, I have been in mosques. I couldn't remember the name, but in this campaign, I plan to visit. We have already planned to visit several mosques. Look, on that topic, antisemitism is a real problem in this city. I do take exception with the assemblyman's approach to antisemitism. I think New York only works if we are respectful and tolerant of racial, religious, ethnic differences.

I used to talk about no hate in our state. If it's anti-Black or anti-Italian, anti-Jewish, anti-Hindu. No, no. We have no tolerance for discrimination. When it rears its ugly head, we should stand up united. Antisemitism is growing in this city. We have more antisemitic incidents in New York than any other city in the country. That is just unacceptable, and all New Yorkers should be outraged.

Brian Lehrer: I wasn't going to go to this topic in this conversation, but since you raised it-- you had signed up to be a war crimes defense lawyer for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Considering what's been happening recently with the widespread reports of starvation and troops killing people at food distribution sites, former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert now says his country is committing war crimes. Would you still consider defending Netanyahu a righteous job for you to take if you're not mayor?

For those voters who have the Middle East as part of their calculus, or according to Ezra Klein's essay in the New York Times recently, might even think that reflexively defending Israel on everything leads to more antisemitism. Is that a righteous place for you to be and an effective one at fighting antisemitism?

Andrew Cuomo: Obviously, as mayor, I wouldn't be participating in any legal activity, but that was a technical issue of the International Criminal Court's jurisdiction. That's what that was about, an overreach of the ICC, which I believe it is. I don't believe they have any legal jurisdiction. The Middle East, of course, is a horrific situation that is going on, and it is the human loss of life. Every day watching what's going on and the killing and the starvation, everyone who has any sense of decency wants it to stop and wants it to stop immediately and prays for peace. Everyone wants those hostages returned, and they want the killing to stop 100%. That does not justify antisemitism. That's my position.

If you want to say, "I disagree with what Israel is doing and what their government is doing and the prime minister is doing," fine, but that doesn't justify being antisemitic to Jewish New Yorkers. That's my position. You want to disagree with what a country's government is doing, fine. That doesn't allow you to harass or discriminate against people from that country who live in this city.

Brian Lehrer: I guess I need to ask you if you are therefore accusing Mr. Mamdani of being antisemitic, and if so, cite a quote or something.

Andrew Cuomo: I am not accusing him of being antisemitic. I've been very specific about that. To say someone is antisemitic, then you have to look into their soul. To accuse someone of being a racist or a bigot, that's above my pay grade. That's done by a higher authority. Do I think he has fueled antisemitic actions and remarks? Yes. Do I think he's participated in rallies where people were blatantly antisemitic? Yes. Do I think he should condemn globalize the intifada? Yes.

Globalize the intifada says kill Jewish people, right? That's what it means. Should we all condemn that? Yes, but I have never said. I would never say that anyone is a racist or a bigot or an antisemite, but I do believe he has fueled that. As mayor and I went through this as governor, this city and state, they're all about diversity. That is a delicate balance, my friend, and you can't allow wedges to be placed. I don't care if it's white or Black. I don't care if it's Jewish, Muslim, Christian. You have to strive for tolerance and unity. Always.

Brian Lehrer: Andrew Cuomo, now running on the Fight and Deliver Party line in the mayoral election. Thanks for joining us. We really appreciate your time.

Andrew Cuomo: Thank you.

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