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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. With us now is the president of The Juilliard School. You know the place right near Lincoln Center? You know the worldwide reputation? Damian Woetzel. It's not just The Juilliard School of Music as people may think of it. They also do dance and drama education. He is here to talk about the school, performing arts education generally, and access to music and other performing arts education. One of President Woetzel's dreams, I'm told, is to make Juilliard tuition-free. President Woetzel, thanks so much for joining us. Welcome to WNYC.

Damian Woetzel: Thanks so much, Brian. Great to talk with you again. It's been a little while and it's great to touch base.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and just to make the segue from the politics that we usually talk about on this show, you were once a member of President Obama's committee on the arts and humanities, right? What was that? What was the context of advising a president of the United States, which is a political position, not a creative arts position per se, advising the president of the United States on the arts?

Damian Woetzel: Well, in a word, it was thrilling, I will say. I served for eight years on that committee alongside a huge range of artists from Yo-Yo Ma and Kerry Washington to Chuck Close and others. The whole idea was and the President actually said that at one point, he walked into a room where we were meeting about a landmark study that we'd commissioned on the state of arts education. He said, "Okay, what are we going to do?"

It really was about what the arts can do with the context of society. We focused very heavily on education. I got to work on some national arts education initiatives. One is called Turnaround Arts, which is essentially what it sounds like. It was about how art and performing arts and all manner of art education can help turn around failing schools. It was beyond meaningful. Beyond that, it was incredibly useful. To get to see these programs take off and be a part of creating that ecosystem was extraordinary.

Brian Lehrer: Now, introduce people, if you would, for listeners who only know Juilliard as a high-prestige music school to what it is in the breadth of what you do as you see it.

Damian Woetzel: Oh wow, so it's incredibly expansive, which is part of the reason that I was just so excited to take on this role back in 2018. If you chart the course of performing arts throughout the 20th century into the 21st, you see Juilliard actually very much tracking and leading as it goes, starting with music as it's known, as it was known, Juilliard School of Music, adding dance in 1951. One of the ways that I think about that is that everything was booming. Everything was growing post-World War II.

You see the arts in New York City in particular starting to flourish with Mayor LaGuardia and City Center becoming the people's house for art. Likewise, Juilliard is growing. The modern dance movement in particular is taking hold. Juilliard in 1951 embodied both the tradition and the innovation as it does today, as the whole school does. You had faculty like Martha Graham was working with Juilliard and José Limón became the-- This was the growth pattern of actually what art was and was becoming, and then when--

Brian Lehrer: What an opportunity for students to have those people as mentors and instructors, right?

Damian Woetzel: Oh, it's a phenomenal thing and it's what we do to this day. It is that proximity. In some ways, it's like, if you're going to be at the heart of New York City, if you're going to be at the heart of Lincoln Center, putting the campus in campus is how I think about it. This is the school that feeds all the houses. You have to take advantage of that. We are surrounded by the makers of today, by the performers, and it was then too. It was literally like the halls are extraordinary.

I've heard Jessica Chastain talking about being in the elevator with Yo-Yo. It's just like saying, "How did I get here to this moment?" I'm standing in an elevator and this is what a Juilliard life is like. The progression of art as it goes and if you think about from City Center, where my former company, where I danced for many years, New York City Ballet, was founded, and then moves to Lincoln Center to the New York State Theater, and all the other houses are getting built, and then Juilliard comes in.

At that moment, they add drama because the premise is, of course, that all the performing arts that are represented at Lincoln Center need to be represented in the educational constituent, which is what Juilliard is and was. Drama gets added with a brand-new curriculum designed by John Houseman and Michel Saint-Denis. Suddenly, you've got all of these art forms side by side in one building at this epicenter of creativity. It's an engine essentially and then it keeps going.

Brian Lehrer: You have after-school and weekend classes for young kids through high school and then it's also a college, right?

Damian Woetzel: That's correct. There's a preparatory division, so pre-college, and the Music Advancement Program, which is, I think, the last time you and I talked was when we had an extraordinary gift allowing us to make that program tuition-free. Very much setting the bar for what the scale of ambition and possibility is. That's the preparatory division. Then there's also an extension division, which is for lifelong learning, which is in person and online.

It just keeps going because if we think about just music itself-- I laughed about this the other night. We had a performance that was the end of semester. Today's the last day of semester, by the way. It was just an incredible landmark always to look back. We had a performance where we showed all our wares. Every area was seen. The first thing that performed was our Baroque program, which is actually our newest program ironically. [chuckles] It's the program we added most recently.

Brian Lehrer: That doesn't make sense. [chuckles]

Damian Woetzel: It doesn't, right?

Brian Lehrer: I'm kidding.

Damian Woetzel: I'll tell you. The key is, the Juilliard String Quartet, which was formed in 1946 right after the war, have always had a motto. It's to play new music like it's old and old music like it's new. That's the whole story. It is literally that we are striving for that state, that equilibrium, where it's not just about performing. Of course, we have the sense of purpose around creating the artists who are going to populate all the stages, all the screens, but it's also the makers. We're side by side with the makers.

Last week, we had a new dance program, which we do every year, but it wasn't just new dance. Pam Tanowitz did a new dance. She's one of the world's greatest choreographers working today with new music by Caroline Shaw, one of the greatest young composers working today. That's the Juilliard experience for these students, but it's also the ecosystem that we envision for the future of the arts themselves.

Brian Lehrer: You've been president of Juilliard since 2018. I know the reason you really wanted to come on today was to talk about your goal of diversifying the school and what you call redefining excellence, I'm told. What do you mean by redefining excellence?

Damian Woetzel: Well, I read a wonderful quote this week from Agnes de Mille years ago talking about a figure in dance, Carmelita Maracci, who's not as well-known as she once was. She embodied many forms of dance, ballet. She worked with American Ballet Theater and created dances for them. At the same time, she was a pioneer in modern dance and specifically in Spanish-infused dancing.

What de Mille said about Carmelita was with her flawless line, she made tradition. I just thought about that a lot. I thought, "That's our goal here." We are here to embody and to make tradition. When I think about all the voices that have come through Juilliard and will come through, my goal here is to make sure that all these voices get here and they are not impeded by finance, that it's not simply because you can't afford it, that you don't get to have the opportunity to grow in a way to be in that environment, to be in that elevator, as I said before, that is going to create the opportunity for learning on the highest possible level.

It is an open learning. It is a reverence for tradition, but it is not impeded by it because these things are not in conflict. That's at the heart of that Juilliard String Quartet quote. Tradition and innovation. Tradition is driving innovation. It is always moving forward just as it did throughout the 20th century. If we think about the path of adding dance and adding drama and then within music, adding jazz, adding just the evolution of the composition department, which-- Here's an interesting little note. We got some award or notification that Juilliard's best film composition program in the country or the world. Something wonderful. It sounds great.

We actually don't have a film composition program. It's that film composers come out of our composition program because it is a truly open ecosystem that allows for that, that you can have the opportunity to believe that every dancer is a choreographer actually, either in fact or in the making, and the musicians similarly in composition. If you look at our playwriting program, which exists alongside the drama program, and you look at Eboni Booth, who won the Pulitzer this year, came out of our playwriting program. This is the ecosystem of the new as well as the reverence for understanding all of the masterworks that we've come to know and to respect.

Brian Lehrer: With the president of The Juilliard School, Damian Woetzel, and listeners, we have time for a few phone calls here or texts. Anybody want to talk about the importance of music or performing arts or any kind of arts education in 2024 or who has a question for Damian Woetzel? 212-433-WNYC, or diversity and access as topics as well, 212-433-9692. What are the demographics of The Juilliard School generally? However, I know you have different programs, but compared to in the past and what is it that you aspire to?

Damian Woetzel: Well, I think the range of programs is matched by the range of people and just actually listening to you call out all the radio call signs and thinking about all the places that are in proximity. I always have thought of Juilliard as a hub. I picture it emitting, right? Just like a radio station actually, the idea that it's sending out into the world, but it's actually both. It's an oscillation where people are coming in and going back and coming in and going back.

We have over a third of our students are international. We have a global campus. We have a campus in China, in Tianjin. We have people coming from everywhere. I listened to a singer this week, a young man from Nigeria, who just absolutely blew my mind. I went home to my wife, Heather Watts, who is also a dancer with New York City Ballet, and I said, "Oh, my God. There's a kid." Just that moment when you realize that you're seeing just growth right in front of your eyes is so exciting.

The answer to your question is there are people here from everywhere. There really are. You see it in each program. The great thing is the mix, right? It's the edge effect, that idea that the greatest growth happens in these, where systems are rubbing up against each other. To me, that's the thrilling opportunity of the aperture as being very narrow in one way. You're in your classroom with your class, with your professors, with your peers working very focused.

Then you widen that aperture and you're with all of the other things that are going on around you, which is actually a big metaphor for how art functions in society. That is the real argument in some ways for this mission around affordability and accessibility. Because if it is that, which I believe it is, that art itself is a public good. If it is that, then it cannot be limited by money. That can't be the issue that gets in the way. That's part of the reason Juilliard does-- we have over 700 performances a year here. Most of them are free.

We have venues that welcome people in. We do performances out on Lincoln Center Plaza. We tour. We have a new pop-up space on 66th Street called Juilliard Station, where we have rush-hour time concerts at 5:30. Just walk in and you get an incredible concert or a dance improvisation or a drama reading. We just started that this fall, by the way. We take a break over the holidays because all the students go places and go home. Come January 6th, we're back at it with lunchtime. It is about free access to art.

We want Juilliard to be the place that sets that standard where that level of art is so about connecting with people. Actually, that's the point. I've mentioned Yo-Yo a few times. He's someone I got to work with a lot in my life on lots of different types of projects. Everything from the concert hall to the second-grade classroom. No matter where it is, it is about connecting with people. It is about looking and seeing someone feel what you're feeling. To me, that's the whole point. It's about, how do we get these young people in that position?

Brian Lehrer: I love the idea, by the way, of those rush-hour concerts when I used to work the night shift. As a music lover myself and somebody who goes to concerts all the time, I used to asked myself because there was nobody else to ask, "Why don't they have matinee concerts like they have matinee theater performances?" I think that's a really great idea. Also with us now--

Damian Woetzel: You should come by.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, I will.

Damian Woetzel: I'll tell you something more about that in a minute, but go ahead.

Brian Lehrer: Well, I want to introduce the other person who's going to come on with you at your invitation. Also with us now for a few minutes is Charlie Ortiz, executive director of the WHIN or WHIN Music Community Charter School in Washington Heights. Charlie, thanks for a few minutes today. Welcome to WNYC.

Charlie Ortiz: Brian, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Damian, it's always a pleasure. Thank you for inviting me onto this call as well.

Brian Lehrer: Well, Damian, why don't you tell our listeners--

Damian Woetzel: Hey, Charlie, good to be with you.

Brian Lehrer: Damian, you tell our listeners why you suggested that Charlie join us today.

Damian Woetzel: Well, because Charlie's a hero. He's an extraordinary artistic leader. He's the founder of this Washington Heights & Inwood Charter Music School, which is now a partner of Juilliard's. Brian, a couple of years ago, when we talked about the Music Advancement Program and getting that grant that allowed it to become tuition-free and to grow and to become a real gateway to exposure to classical music on the highest level of education, part of that, and probably if we look back at the transcript, you'll see it there, was developing partners to have what we would think of as a pre-map, the gateway to map, the gateway to Juilliard.

I'm very proud that Charlie and Washington Heights, Inwood, WHIN as we call it, is now a partner. I was just up there yesterday for one of their end-of-year concerts. The partnership is providing faculty to work with third through fifth-graders. It's an extraordinary facility. It's based on the El Sistema model, which you may know. Gustavo Dudamel being a famous product of that coming our way, by the way. Can't wait to bring him up there. I look at Charlie as just the extraordinary leader to bring art into people's lives and to do it on a terribly, wonderfully serious level because the work is rigorous. It is about knowledge-building for stage and for life.

Brian Lehrer: Charlie, tell us more about this music-oriented charter school.

Charlie Ortiz: Happily. Damian, thank you for all of the kind words. Washington Heights & Inwood Music Community Charter School or WHIN is an El Sistema-inspired school where, ultimately, every child between kindergarten and eighth grade have two periods of music every single day. Because it's El Sistema-based, it's all ensemble. We have a choir for all of our students and we have an orchestra for all of our students.

Our students are just doing amazing. We have, I think, the best faculty in the world that are really helping our students not only become great musicians but learning how to work with others to solve complex challenges because we really know that that ensemble experience requires children to be able to work together. With the idea of El Sistema, that's what we strive for.

Brian Lehrer: Just define that a little bit more, El Sistema.

Charlie Ortiz: Yes, so El Sistema is, I would say, the social inclusion through music education program that comes from Venezuela. The idea is that if you teach people how to work together in an ensemble in the pursuit of excellence, then they can take those experiences outside of the ensemble and work in their communities to solve whatever challenges are happening in their communities.

Brian Lehrer: My kids went to a different music-oriented New York City public elementary school. One of the fascinating things there was that they only screened applicants for what they considered likelihood of success in a music-oriented environment, but you know what else happened? Those kids, year after year and with the diversity that they got by screening only for their perception of who had-- it wasn't for musical training.

It was who they saw as receptive to music in ways that they would succeed in a music-oriented environment. Well, what else happened was that those kids, year after year, had some of the highest math and reading scores in the whole city on the standardized tests. I'm curious if you're having that experience to any degree or if that surprises you to any degree.

Charlie Ortiz: It doesn't surprise me. We definitely see a similar transferable skill to all of the different academic areas that a child has at WHIN. For me, we are a very different school model. We are a public charter school, so we do not screen, we do not audition. We are proudly inclusive and as diverse as the word can be defined.

Brian Lehrer: Charter schools are generally admission on a lottery system. Is that how you work?

Charlie Ortiz: Yes, so the way it would work is as long as there is a seat available, a child can apply for that seat. If there are more applications than available seats, then it goes to a lottery. I think we currently have a 100-person wait list.

Brian Lehrer: Who do you want to apply?

[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead, Damian, and then I'll let Charlie go and just tell people if they're interested because I can hear parents' ears perking up in northern Manhattan and maybe elsewhere because it might be worth commuting to. I'll ask him to tell people how to apply. Damian?

Damian Woetzel: The demand is great already and it will continue to because I sat there yesterday surrounded by parents. Anthony McGill and I, Anthony is the artistic director of our Music Advancement Program, just sat and watched the parents and watched the students at this juncture, their end of semester charting their progress. It is charting progress in music.

Also, as you so rightly say, Brian, it's much more than that actually. It's music as a tool for life. It's about learning to learn. It's about ability. Anthony said, "Oh, my God. We have things to learn here," for how Charlie and his team, his professors, his staff have those students walking onto the stage. It was an instruction about how discipline and rigor and aspiration come together through music. It was extraordinary.

Brian Lehrer: Charlie, real briefly--

Charlie Ortiz: If I can add to that.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Charlie Ortiz: I was going to say, a big part of, I think, what goes into that is what is happening with the Juilliard partnership. It has been so wonderful to see how our students and families have responded to the private lessons that are now being done on-site by Juilliard staff. It's really raising the level of prestige and care that we already had. I have to say that Anthony, Damian, and also Weston Sprott have been so integral in making this happen. It's just fascinating to me because so many organizations, so many people out there talk about creating equity and creating pathways to long-term success. Juilliard is literally doing that for hundreds of children in Washington Heights today and over the next many years. We're all just very grateful for the partnership.

Brian Lehrer: Charlie Ortiz is executive director of the WHIN, W-H-I-N, Music Community Charter School in Washington Heights. Continued good luck with it. Thanks for giving us a few minutes.

Charlie Ortiz: Thank you for allowing me to be here. Damian, take care. I'll talk to you soon.

Damian Woetzel: Talk to you soon, Charlie.

Brian Lehrer: Let me sneak one caller in here before we run out of time. It's going to be Maya in Pittsburgh. You're on WNYC. Hello, Maya, who I believe is a professional dancer in New York. That's what you told our screener, right?

Maya: Yes. Yes, I was. I also graduated from Brooklyn College and was part of efforts to make CUNY tuition-free again, so very much supportive of doing the same at Juilliard. Part of that is because I would look around and see the kinds of students I was in class with in CUNY, the diversity of race, class background, immigrant status, et cetera. That was not represented with the companies I was dancing with. We shouldn't need to send kids to charter schools with special programs. We should be sending money to public education in New York at both the grade school and university levels to support arts education.

Brian Lehrer: Maya, thank you. Damian Woetzel, president of Juilliard, pick up on that and for you as a dancer, stick the landing on the measure-

Damian Woetzel: Stick the landing. That's right.

Brian Lehrer: -that you're trying to promote on becoming tuition-free at Juilliard eventually.

Damian Woetzel: Yes, I think that it's a step-by-step process. Right now, over 90% of our students are on scholarship and financial aid to some degree. We're close to a third are tuition-free. Our goal is to keep going program by programming. This last fall, our drama MFA program, so the graduate-level drama went tuition-free completely. Four years of tuition-free drama.

Our first class arrived. It was an international class that you just felt like the glow of possibility without the impediments of finance bearing on them, to be able to do their work, to be able to focus, to take advantage of New York. This is the goal for me, for all of our students, and really, as I said before, though, for the ecosystem itself, speaking to Maya's point. Art is a public good. You need artists out there.

When I think about the teachers I see going up to Charlie's school, there's a young woman there who graduated from Juilliard two years ago. I see her in the classroom and I see her living a full life of an artist because every artist, in some way, is primed to be a teacher. The reductive version, you started with it. It was thought of as The Juilliard School of Music. Okay, we blow that open and we say, no, it is Juilliard School that represents music, dance, and drama, but not just the performers.

It's the makers, it's the teachers, it's the future programmers and directors. It's the people who actually create an ecosystem that is not simply for itself. It's actually how it connects with people. It starts with education. That has to start with that accessibility factor to be able to bring in people regardless of their financial means. I'm dedicated to it. I was a boy who grew up with free ballet classes. As a boy in ballet in Boston, I got myself here. I stood outside this building, Juilliard, where the School of American Ballet used to be housed.

I went to the third floor and I was on scholarship. I ended up in New York City Ballet for 24 years. Then I got to work on arts education initiatives for the president of the United States, for President Obama. This is art as a public good. I think Juilliard is a place that can carry that banner with the ultimate level of excellence, meeting that level of affordability. Going back to one other point, just about the progress of art, we can make tradition through that. That's what the exciting part is, what the art actually does.

Brian Lehrer: Damian Woetzel, president of The Juilliard School, thanks for joining us. Happy holidays.

Damian Woetzel: Happy holidays. Great to talk. Thanks, Brian.

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