[MUSIC]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We'll end the show today on this question, how do you handle making more or less money than your friends? 212-433-WNYC. Have you ever been on one side or the other of that? Did it get awkward? Did it get weird? Did the person with the more money get it about you or if you were the person with the less? 212-433-9692. Why? This question comes to us from Julia Carpenter today, formerly a reporter at The Wall Street Journal covering personal finance. She penned an insightful piece on navigating the tricky waters of financial disparities within friendships. Her headline was, How to Handle Making More or Less Money Than Your Friends.

As our lives progress, obviously, our financial situations can diverge as they shift, whether it's landing a high-paying job or the opposite, experiencing a layoff, or simply growing apart from friends on different financial trajectories. Julia draws from personal experiences and expert advice to offer a thoughtful perspective and we invite your stories. We'll hear more now from Julia Carpenter, now a freelance writer and spring host of Apple News and Conversation and we'll take your calls. Julia, welcome to WNYC.

Julia Carpenter: Hi, thanks so much for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, again, who has a story along these lines, or maybe a question, if you're trying to figure out how to handle a situation right now with somebody who makes a lot more than you or a lot less than you when you want to do some of the same things or one of you wants to do something that you're not sure if the other can afford, or vice versa, tell us a story or ask a question, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Julia, I'll ask you to start with a personal experience of yours that you reveal in the article that you recently passed up an opportunity to go on a luxury vacation with friends. Want to tell us that story?

Julia Carpenter: Yes. These are two friends I love and care about very much. We've traveled together in the past, but when I went freelance earlier this year, I also knew I had one other trip for a wedding coming up and that I wasn't going to be feeling as secure in my income and I knew I would have to say no to it. We were just in different financial places. This, for them, didn't feel like as big of a lift as it did for me. Of course, they understood when I told them this. They said, "No worries. We can try again next year," but I had to hype myself up to send the text. Admitting that I was in this different place, I felt a little sheepish, I think.

Brian Lehrer: How'd you put it? How'd you express it?

Julia Carpenter: Exactly how I just said it to you. I was bold-faced in it. I said, "Listen, this is where I am financially. I know in the past this hasn't been as big of a deal for me to plan something like this that far in advance, but right now I can barely see one month ahead. Give me a little bit of grace and hopefully, we'll be able to pick this up another time." One of the things though that I think is so interesting, and as I talk to people about this and I've gotten a lot of response to this piece, is that we meet friends when we are in similar places in our life usually, and then as that friendship deepens, our lives bridge out and fork in different directions. Because these friends that hadn't yet happened, I was the guinea pig for what that movement would be like.

Brian Lehrer: Do you think that your friends who invited you on the luxury vacation were aware of your financial differences and were insensitive in any way to even invite you along at your own expense? I think that's something that's going to come up in some of these stories, that in some cases, obviously, a lot of people with a lot of money are extremely sensitive to their friends, but that in some cases is like, oh, yes, they didn't even think about it.

Julia Carpenter: I know. I think what they were afraid to do was make assumptions. They didn't want to assume, oh, she's making this big career shift, oh, she's got these other plans. That means she can't afford to do this thing that we had talked about casually a couple of months prior. They wanted to assume that I would volunteer that information. It was on me then to be more honest and say, "Hey, things have changed. I'm actually not where I was then. This is my new life. FYI, here's the catch-up." [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: Carolentina [unintelligible 00:04:57] you're on WNYC. Hi, Carol.

Carol: Oh, hi. Thank you. I've always had fluctuating income. The way I see Broadway shows or Symphony, I buy tickets in the last row. My kids understand this, but I invited a friend from college who is in a different income bracket. When she went to City Center with me in the last row, which I personally love, she said, "My, these are high up." I now know never to invite her again with me. [laughs]

Julia Carpenter: Oh my gosh. I've had this exact same experience actually when I went and saw A Strange Loop with a friend. She said, "Oh my gosh, why are we here? Why are we so high up?" It was this moment where I realized, "Oh." I actually have been saving up to go to this show. This was what I was doing. If you want to get the box, please let me know. We had a laugh about it, but I think we both realized in that moment that something like going to a show or going to a concert feels like a everyday expense to some people, and to other people it's a treat.

Brian Lehrer: Carol, thank you very much for sharing that anecdote. Here's somebody who writes, "I do make less than most of my friends. I tend to avoid group dinners because there's always the issue of picking up the bill or splitting it evenly, but I say, "Let me know if you go somewhere after." This person writes, "I also use humor to diverge away from business talk so I can actually partake in the conversation." Any thought about that? That comes up, right, the uncertainty about whether you can afford your share of the bill or whether a wealthier person is going to pick it up?

Julia Carpenter: Yes. Birthday dinners are so fraught in general. I was just talking about this with my brother. He's a little bit younger than me. I was just talking about this with him. You are invited to go out with your friend to celebrate them. You're oftentimes at a long table. Everyone's ordering drinks, people are ordering different entrees. Maybe you show up-- It goes both ways. Maybe you show up and you're the one who says, "Hey, two pitchers for the table." You don't think, "Oh, boy can everybody do that? Raise your hand if you can't." You don't think, can we split the bill 12 ways? You want it to be easy. You want this to be a celebration for your friend, something that they don't have to worry about.

Then there's these other friends that they have maybe at the end of the table who say, "I had a piece of bread and a Diet Coke. I'm going to dip out, let me know what I owe." It's super fraught. I think also those are situations in which there's a lot of different social dynamics at play. The splitting the bill thing, I think you just have to be so upfront early on, otherwise it is a recipe for drama.

Brian Lehrer: Here's Nina in Ewing, New Jersey, who I think has some very sensitive, wealthier friends. Nina, you're on WNYC. Hi there.

Nina: Hi, how are you? Yes, I've been very lucky throughout my life. I have friends with various incomes and I tell them what I'm willing to pay for dinner or what I'm comfortable with. They really are very generous. They go where I'm comfortable. They say, "You pick a restaurant and a meal that's comfortable for you." I'm very lucky with that. If we go to a restaurant where the food is way more than I can afford, I get the lesser one and ask for the bill for myself. I'm 75, so it's a little bit easier now to do that than when I was younger. That's how I handle it, but I've been very lucky. Have nice friends.

Brian Lehrer: Nina, thank you very much. How could you be luckier than having nice friends?

Nina: I know.

Brian Lehrer: Here's somebody who wrote, "My husband lost his job during the 2009 financial crisis with a baby on the way. It was one of the most vulnerable experiences of our lives. People were so sorry that it happened, but no one wanted to talk about it and we felt like we were being avoided like the plague. Now we're in a much different financial situation, and I find that money is rarely talked about except when planning for vacation or concert tickets or trying to do something that might be out of people's price range. It is unfortunately a taboo that leads to discomfort no matter what, especially when things are assumed."

The beginning of that story, Julia, when her husband lost his job during the financial crisis and she used the word vulnerable experience of our lives. People were sorry that it happened but no one wanted to talk about it.

Julia Carpenter: A lot of the response I got to my column was from people who had experiences like this. They talked about how so much of the things they would do with their friends or the common ground they had with their friends went away after a huge financial loss, or a job loss, or some other horrible event. The friends you golfed with every Sunday all of a sudden when you couldn't afford to golf with them anymore vanished. It is a sad story. I think what she's describing too about remembering that shows that it's not something people take lightly, and it's not something nobody notices. Your friends can feel that distance just as much as you can.

Brian Lehrer: Alice in the East Village, you're on WNYC. Hi, Alice.

Alice: Hi. I had an experience where a friend kept on urging me to do a little weekend with a bunch of people. I thought it would be reasonable. It wasn't, and it got very awkward. She said, "Just because I have money, don't assume I'm going to pay for you." I wasn't really like-- I don't know, it just really got awkward. I just find that I have limited friendships with people who make a lot of money unless I really know them well and that people are very strange about money. I just had one great experience. The people I know from the [unintelligible 00:11:03] I went out to eat with them, and there was no problem. Everybody splits the bill, people paid for drinks. It's just so different. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: That weekend away, you didn't all discuss what it would cost in advance?

Alice: I thought it would cost a certain amount but it cost much more. I guess it was so many of us. I didn't really understand. I take it upon myself also that I didn't find out, but I just find it really awkward with people who have more money. Sometimes they pay for you, and sometimes they don't. I understand that they feel taken advantage of, but I also know that the few times I've had money, I've just been generous. It's just the way it is.

Brian Lehrer: Alice, thank you very much.

Alice: [unintelligible 00:11:54] money, I've given it to them.

Brian Lehrer: Well, that's the most tortured call on the subject that we've gotten.

Julia Carpenter: Oh God. I know. I think that's the nightmare scenario for a lot of the people who are afraid to raise these situations. I really identified with what she was saying, actually. I have been the friend where I've said, "Hey, I recognize that you are in a different position financially, you're in a position where you're not going to be able to do the thing that I've suggested, I'm sorry about that. Let me make it easier. Let me pick a different place or take on a share," or as the person who extended the invitation, I have to bear some of that responsibility.

I think what she's describing is so accurate, that people would rather just not talk about it. People on both sides would rather not talk about it. The far making less wants to pretend for a little bit that they fit in with everybody else who's making more, and the person who's making more wants to pretend that everybody's on the same level, and they don't have to take any of these other things into consideration. What happens is that both people then separately complain about the other person to their respective friends, and you don't want that.

Brian Lehrer: No, especially if they're some of the same friends. In our last minute, here's a question that's come in. A listener writes, "I have been on both sides of this, and I'm going through a similar situation with a vacation with some friends. We want to go to Italy together. However, I have less tolerance and more means to fly in a higher class." Does going on vacation mean you have to fly in the same class together, even if the entire vacation will be spent together?

Julia Carpenter: Oh my gosh, this is such an interesting question. I would love to get Emily Post to weigh in on this. I'm going to be controversial. I'm going to say everyone needs to fly the same class because if you're doing this together, it's to spend time together. I'm willing to hear other sides if this person gets super uncomfortable in coach, physically if there's a reason they need to be in first class. I'm willing to hear the other side.

Brian Lehrer: This person said, "We're going to spend the rest of the time together once we get to Italy."

Julia Carpenter: I don't know. I would love to hear responses to this. Maybe this is the next article.

Brian Lehrer: Okay. Listeners, you can text us your answer to that question and we'll share it with Julia after the show.

Julia Carpenter: Yes, I'm dying to know.

Brian Lehrer: After the show is just about now. Julia Carpenter, freelance writer and spring host of Apple News in conversation. Her piece in The Wall Street Journal, How to Handle Making More or Less Money Than Your Friends. Thank you so much.

Julia Carpenter: Thank you. This was so much fun.

Brian Lehrer: That's The Brain Lehrer Show for today. Produced by Mary Croke, Lisa Allison, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Esperanza Rosenbaum. Plus, Briana Brady today. Zach Gottehrer-Cohen edits our National Politics podcast. Our intern this term work in the phones today, Ethlyn Daniel-Scherz. Megan Ryan is the head of live radio. We had Shaina Sengstock at the audio controls today. Stay tuned for All Of It.

Copyright © 2024 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.