Title: Love and Money [MUSIC-Marden Hill: Hijack]

Kousha Navidar: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Kousha Navidar, filling in for Brian today. Tomorrow is Valentine's Day. I hope you'll be surrounded by people you love. I'll be moving apartments with my wife. We are very romantic, but maybe you're buying a gift for your sweetie or planning a date, or just staying at home and cooking with your partner. Here's the thing. You know what all of those activities have in common? They all require money.

No matter how hard we try, every relationship at some point needs to confront the topic of finances. Sometimes it is a harder conversation to have than asking the person out in the first place. How do you split rent when you're making different incomes? How do you navigate different spending habits or debt? That awkwardness, that tension about how money shows up in your relationship, can be true whether you're on date 1 or date 1000.

Let's talk about it. How do you work out money with your partner? We're lucky to be joined in the studio by Charlotte Cowles, a financial advice columnist for New York magazine's The Cut, where she's written about finance, including one article titled 4 Fights Couples Have About Money and How to Get Out of Them. Charlotte, hi. Welcome back to WNYC.

Charlotte Cowles: Thanks so much for having me.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, we want to hear from you. How do you work out money with your partner? What challenges have you faced, and what helped? Give us a call or send us a text at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. Are there best money practices you can't live without or things you would never do again? Give us a call and share your story of how you navigate finances as a couple and how you keep the romance alive. Give us a call or send us a text, 212-433-9692. Charlotte, let's start with navigating money at the start of the relationship. When is the right time to talk about money?

Charlotte Cowles: I think it's never really too early to try to create a positive feeling or vibe around the conversation of money. You don't necessarily have to share your credit score on the first date, although some people want to.

Kousha Navidar: Right on the hinge profile. [laughs]

Charlotte Cowles: Yes, exactly. I think it's important to have a good vibe about it. It comes along with a lot of people feel really nervous and vulnerable when they're talking about money and their financial background. A lot of people didn't have it modeled very well for them when they were growing up. Money might have been a source of tension in their own home or between their parents. I think it's important to approach the relationship maybe even before you get into a relationship, just understanding where you're coming from financially and your own fears and anxieties around money, so that when you are going to share them with someone else, you can do so with a sense of self awareness and an idea of what you're hoping to work towards.

Kousha Navidar: That really resonates with me because I am thinking back to my wife and I when we were boyfriend/girlfriend, and we were deciding to move in together, we had to discuss rent. That was the Talk, capital T. For me, I think a thing that really reflected me about that first conversation, and I remember exactly where it happened, what time it was, what time of the year it was, it was a lot before I went into that conversation thinking about what vibes I wanted, which is, to borrow your phrase. I'm sure a lot of people share that experience. How do you make good vibes? Is it having that good relationship ahead of time with money?

Charlotte Cowles: Yes. Look, no one's going to come into a relationship with a perfect relationship with their own finances. Everyone's going to have their own baggage. Everyone, I guarantee you, is going to feel like theirs is worse than the other person's, or most people will feel that way, but it can also go the other way. Sometimes people are really vigilant with their own finances, and they have a sense that their partner might not be in the same boat.

That can create a really the sort of agitating dynamic where one person is always like babysitting the other person's spending and finances. That's not healthy either. The idea, even if you know that you're not exactly where you want to be, you want to have this collective effort to move forward together and to behave as a team. Even if you're not totally on the same page, you don't have the exact same priorities, no one is ever going to have the exact same salary, the exact same amount of debt. Everyone's always going to be on a slightly different level. Not to try to get on your high horse about it or moralize any of those things, but really think about where it is that you want to go.

Kousha Navidar: Are there other common challenges that you hear from couples that you've talked to about how to navigate those finances in the earlier part of the relationship?

Charlotte Cowles: Yes. I think one of the best ways to get into it is that a lot of times people feel just really vulnerable when they're starting these conversations. Everybody reacts to vulnerability in a different way. They get defensive, they cry, they get angry, they try to bulldoze. Everyone has their own mechanisms.

Kousha Navidar: Toxic toolkit.

Charlotte Cowles: Exactly.

Kousha Navidar: Copyright.

Charlotte Cowles: I think something that worked for me, and I think something that works really well for a lot of people, is actually just being really honest about that vulnerability. When my husband and I were first talking about money, we had a couple of conversations that just felt really awkward, and I didn't really know how to get around it. Finally, I realized that I should maybe just be really honest, and when we were starting the conversation, just saying, "Look, I'm so sorry, but I just feel so awkward when we talk about this. It makes me really nervous, and I'm sweating a little bit even before we start this conversation."

It diffused it so much. He was like, "Oh, no. I'm so sorry. Are you okay?" Which I think is a really normal human reaction when you know that the person who you love is not feeling good. I think it's disarming and just to lead with just how awkward you might be feeling or just how uncomfortable and letting that other person step up or at least understand that you're trying to meet the other person where they're at or somewhere in the middle. I think that's a really good attitude to bring to the conversation.

Kousha Navidar: Something that I want to put a point on from what I hear you saying is you're giving your partner an opportunity to be on your team.

Charlotte Cowles: Totally. That's the entire objective.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, how do you work out money with your partner? What challenges have you faced, and what helped? Give us a call or send us a text. We're at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-96921. We're in the studio with writer Charlotte Cowles, and we want to hear from you about some of the challenges you've experienced and the ways that you've navigated it, or if you haven't experienced challenges, what has helped.

It's Valentine's Day coming up, everybody, and we want to find a way to keep the romance alive with money. Give us a call, send us a text, 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Charlotte, we have a text here that I want to get your perspective on. It says, "My parents had separate bank accounts. When I suggested doing that with my spouse, they balked at the idea." We can talk about that specifically if you want. The thing that stands out to me here is how it's different strokes for different folks.

Charlotte Cowles: Totally. Everyone is going to bring, like I said, their own baggage or just their own tools to the equation. I actually think it's really healthy in relationships for each person to have their own money that they can spend however they want. I think it can be really positive to have pooled accounts that you use to spend on things that are shared, like rent, food, essentials, health insurance, whatever it is that you're sharing.

I think it's really good that people have independence in spending their own separate money, whether that's for their own private hobbies or buying a Valentine's Day gift. I think everyone deserves their own fun money to do whatever they want with that isn't going to be scrutinized by the other person, but you both have to be on the same page about it. That's not to say that you should hide money from your spouse. You both just need to agree that you're each going to have your separate money to do whatever it is that you want with it.

Kousha Navidar: We got another text that just came in along these lines that says, "Highly recommend separate accounts from which each partner contributes pro rata per income into a third account to cover joint expenses. I was a control freak who drove my first wife crazy regarding expenditures. In my second marriage, now 35 years," oh, congratulations, "we have our own accounts and never have to argue about money." Another pitch there for some kind of separate accounts. Let's go to Derek in Queens. Hey, Derek, welcome to the show.

Derek: Hi there. I find this to be opposite of what a lot of people talk about. My husband and I have been together for 24 years, and we've never mixed our money. It just naturally happened that way. We don't own anything together, but we own things separately. We've never argued about money. The most awkward conversation we have is like, "Can I get dinner?" "Oh, no, I'll get dinner." That kind of thing. 24 years and it's truly never been an issue. We're by no means rich, but we travel, we buy each other gifts, we never tell each other what to do, and we're responsible. [chuckles]

Kousha Navidar: Derek, I'm so happy to hear that that is your experience. I'm wondering, when it comes to shared goals, where you both have to pitch in? How do you navigate that?

Derek: We just remodeled our house. It was very expensive. We just, "How much do you want to put in?" "Oh, I'll put in this much." "Okay. Do you want to put on your credit card? Are you good?" "Okay. We're good. We got it covered." "Okay, great." The conversations are just very easy.

Kousha Navidar: Derek, thank you so much for that call, and congratulations on 24 years with your husband. We really appreciate it. Charlotte, what did you think when you were listening to Derek?

Charlotte Cowles: That's beautiful. I think that's a really important thing to note is that if something's working, it's working. I think that the only time situations like that can get a little bit fraught is if you use them as a way to avoid talking about money altogether, which a lot of couples do.

Kousha Navidar: Sure.

Charlotte Cowles: It is actually incredibly easy to be married for 40 years and never really talk about money. As long as the lights are on and you have a roof over your head, and the phone bills are paid, a lot of couples just bump along. It doesn't sound like that is what Michael was describing at all. It sounds like.

Kousha Navidar: Derek.

Charlotte Cowles: Excuse me, Derek. Derek was describing something really open and healthy and beautiful in which case perfect.

Kousha Navidar: And understanding too, right?

Charlotte Cowles: Yes.

Kousha Navidar: Because when I asked him, "How do you deal with joint goals?" He said, "We listen to what the other person wants."

Charlotte Cowles: We talk.

Kousha Navidar: Which is great. I also want to talk about an issue that a lot of my millennial and Gen Z friends deal with, which is debt. It's like, I don't know, the pet you bring into the relationship that really nobody wants, and you're stuck with it. What do you hear folks talk about, especially on the younger side, when they have to deal with debt in the relationship that they're bringing in?

Charlotte Cowles: Debt can really be like the one-eyed 20-year-old cat that comes along.

Kousha Navidar: Right.

[laughter]

Charlotte Cowles: Lots of vet bills. Debt is tricky, but it's also incredibly common. I think everyone is hopefully understanding when their partner brings particularly student loans to the relationship. I also know of very intelligent people who've by and large, made great decisions in their life who still wind up with credit card debt for one reason or another. I think it's really important to be empathetic to the reasons why a person might have gotten into debt, and also just to hear about what their plan is for getting out of it.

Different people will be in different positions to help their partner if they want to, with their debt. I think that if you live together and ultimately if you get married, even if one person wants to handle their debt entirely on their own, there's no real way to keep it completely separate. It will affect the things that you can afford to do together. A lot of people will gloss it over and be like, "Oh, it's my debt. I'll take care of it. Don't worry about it." The other person is more than happy to be like, "Yes, it's your 20-year-old cat. I'm not going to pay the vet bills."

Kousha Navidar: The cat's still living in your house, though.

Charlotte Cowles: Yes, exactly. It's still going to bleed into things, like you might not be able to afford to do all the same things together if one person has student loan bills. It is difficult to totally segment it in the way that some people wish they could, and you will have to talk about it. There's no one way to handle it, but it does become part of the collective pot of financial factors that you're going to be dealing with as a couple.

Kousha Navidar: Here's a text that I wanted to bring up. It says, "As a recent divorcee, I would advise especially for women to have your own bank accounts and money on the side. This is in case one needs to make a move or get out of the relationship. Women are usually stuck in relationships because of money." I think this is an important aspect to bring up. I see you nodding your head. How does that resonate with you, Charlotte?

Charlotte Cowles: I think it's really important. This goes back to each person needing their own funds separately. I think it's important to have an emergency fund at all times, no matter whether you're married or whether you're not married. I think having separate emergency funds is really important as well. I would recommend that strongly.

Kousha Navidar: Let's go to Deborah in Westchester. Hi, Deborah, welcome to the show.

Deborah: Hi. Good morning.

Kousha Navidar: Good morning.

Deborah: Hello.

Kousha Navidar: Hi.

Deborah: Hi.

Kousha Navidar: Can you hear us? Tell us on your end.

Deborah: I can hear you. My husband and I, when we first got married, we were both working, and we basically shared expenses. As our life progressed, we decided to have a family. By the time child number three came along, it just seemed like with childcare issues and paying for a nursery school, and then to have had a nanny on top of that, it all just seemed ridiculous for me to keep working. Our children also seemed like they really needed more parental presence. I stopped working.

I just wanted to get some feedback from your guest because I think psychologically it was really traumatic for me, more so than the actual loss of the income. We progressed. Everything has gone pretty much as planned. My husband actually was laid off once. We recouped from that. I don't think it was the wrong choice for us. I have one who's graduating college, one who's in grad school, and we still have one in high school.

Kousha Navidar: Deborah, let me pause you there. I hate to jump in, but I just wanted to make sure that we have time to get to your response. I hear you say, and thank you so much for offering this, you went through a big life change, both for your finances and for your career. Making those decisions are really tough. If I could put a point on that question that you were asking to Charlotte, Charlotte, how do you navigate those moments when you're already deep into the relationship?

Charlotte Cowles: I think as a society, we tend to value that which is quantifiable. When it comes to two people in a relationship, a lot of times people believe that the person who's bringing more money into the relationship, because that money is quantifiable, that person might have more value or have more power in the relationship. I think that it can be really hard to change that attitude. I don't think that attitude is correct.

It sounds like what you are bringing to the relationship in terms of the work that you do, raising children, and taking care of your family. When you were describing it, I could hear you even trying to explain the monetary value of your work like paying for a nanny and paying for all these other expenses that you were able to alleviate by staying home from work. I think it's really important, even financial value aside, just the straight-up value of you taking care of your family is huge.

It may not be something that you can quantify the way that you can your partner's salary from him continuing to work, but that doesn't mean that anything that you did was less valuable from what he is doing. I think it's really important to recognize that, but I also fully understand how hard it can be to do that. We're just not socially conditioned to be able to value work that is unpaid.

Kousha Navidar: We thank you so much for your call. Unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it there. My guest has been writer Charlotte Cowles. Charlotte, thanks so much for hanging out with us.

Charlotte Cowles: Thank you so much for having me.

Kousha Navidar: All right. Folks, it is one day away from Valentine's Day, so just got to say I love all of you listening right now. I love this city. Thanks so much for hanging out with us. Thanks to the team for The Brian Lehrer Show, who I also love, Lisa Allison, Mary Croke, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Esperanza Rosenbaum, with help today from Sasha Linden Cohen. Our interns are Arlo Bivins and Jack Walker. Juliana Fonda and Milton Ruiz are at the audio controls. I'm Kousha Navidar. This is The Brian Lehrer Show. Stay tuned for All Of It and stay well out there.

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