Title: Lawmakers Attempt to Improve the Ticket-Buying Experience

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Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now that we've talked about the future of global democracy, let's talk about buying tickets to concerts and sporting events. Seriously, this is actually a political issue now, too, some of you know. Tickets to big events, whether it's a Taylor Swift concert, a Knicks playoff game, they make the playoffs, or next summer's Men's World Cup matches here in the US, most relevantly right now, they can be a nightmare to buy. Prices skyrocket, resellers scoop up seats before most fans even get a chance, and if that's not enough, websites crash.

One friend called me this summer to say he tried to buy tickets to the US Open tennis tournament on day one of online sales, but all the available seats were already ticket master resale tickets with jacked-up prices. There might be a solution in the works in the New York state legislature, though, and it's even resonating in the mayoral race. State Senator James Skoufis, a Democrat, has introduced a bill in Albany that would regulate the live events ticketing industry in New York and address hidden fees and bots and inflated resale prices. They do this already in parts of Europe, apparently.

Skoufis, by the way, represents District 42, which covers most of Orange County, north and west of the city, and to the Catskills, like west of the Harriman exit on the thruway around there. With the Men's World Cup coming to the US next year, including matches right here in the New York area, he's joining lawmakers like assemblymembers Zohran Mamdani in pressing FIFA to guarantee a fairer, more transparent process for fans. Here's Mamdani in a campaign video in his mayoral race, calling on FIFA to end so-called dynamic pricing, cap resale costs, and reserve 15% of tickets for local residents at a discount.

Mamdani: World Cup's coming to New York next year, and as a lifelong soccer fan, I couldn't be more excited.

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Mamdani: Are any working-class New Yorkers actually going to be able to watch the matches? Presale starts tomorrow. For the first time, FIFA is using dynamic pricing, where they're going to figure out in real time how much they can get away with for charging a ticket. The tickets can be resold on an official FIFA platform with no price cap. That means you can buy a ticket for $60 and sell it for $6,000. Unlike the last three World Cups, there's nothing set aside for residents. What this all means is the biggest sporting event in the world is happening in your backyard, and you'll be priced out of it.

Brian: Assemblymember and Democratic mayoral nominee Zohran Mamdani, a fan of the sport and apparently at least a little bit of a player, too. In the video, he's dribbling and running with the ball, hence the heavy breathing in the clip. We'll talk with Senator Skoufis about his proposals for ticketing at the World Cup and other live events, and why he thinks government has a role in this marketplace.

He's also been at the center of some recent debates over broader Democratic Party priorities, like we discussed in our last segment. He may have a fairly different view from our last guest, we'll see. He even ran as a "who's this guy?" long shot candidate for Democratic Party chair, yes, national Democratic Party chair, starting after last fall's election. We'll ask him where he thinks the party should go on things like taxes, child care, transit, and culture war issues. Senator Skoufis, welcome back to WNYC.

Senator Skoufis: Great to be back. Thanks for having me.

Brian: Listeners, have you tried to buy tickets lately, maybe for a concert or a game, and felt like the system was stacked against you? Are you trying to get World Cup tickets already now that presale is open? What's your ticketing experience or horror story? What reforms would you want to see, or should government not interfere with the marketplace here? 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692, call or text. I wonder if any Europeans with experience with the more price-controlled alternative are listening. Does it work in the public interest? 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692, call or text. Senator, start us off with your bill. What are the main problems in live events ticketing, if there's anything that I didn't say in the intro, and what are you proposing?

Senator Skoufis: I think it'd be easier to explain where the problems are not existing in the system. The system, from start to end, is rife with issues and challenges and frustrations for the average fan. Look, I'm thrilled that Zohran is elevating this issue, and it couldn't come at a better time because next year, next session in 2026, we will be taking up this issue in Albany. Every several years, the underlying law that governs live entertainment ticketing is due to expire. It is due to expire next year. That is the time when we reformers, like myself, have an opportunity to take up this issue and make pro-consumer changes.

Look, Zohran has highlighted a couple of the more pressing and frustrating problems within the system, namely, dynamic pricing, whereby literally within minutes of different folks purchasing a ticket and transactions, the price for the seat right next door to the seat that was just purchased could be $20, $50, $70 higher. It could also theoretically be lower. That's what dynamic pricing is. In real time, the seller is able to adjust the prices from minute to minute based on their perceived supply and demand. Look, airlines do it. There are some other industries that do it, but the vast majority of sellers of goods and products and services do not engage in dynamic pricing.

In fact, I think it was Wendy's or one of the fast food hamburger chains that a year or two ago threw out a trial balloon that they were considering dynamic pricing for their hamburgers and chicken nuggets and other food products, and the internet went crazy. They went bonkers. There was tremendously negative feedback that they actually pulled back out of the proposal.

Brian: Wait, I thought at first you were setting up a joke about Wendy's putting dynamic pricing on. How do you put dynamic pricing on a fast food burger?

Senator Skoufis: Exactly. That's a great question. I don't have an answer to you. It is, unfortunately, not a joke.

Brian: Would there be a shortage in the back room? Five people are online, but they only have four hamburgers. I don't think that ever happened.

Senator Skoufis: I've never gone up to a drive-thru. I've been told we don't have any more hamburgers left inside, and so I have no idea how to answer that question. Look, from dynamic pricing to-- There's this really seedy secret within the industry that's referred to as holdbacks. That's something that FIFA is engaged in. It's something that the large majority of big shows, concerts engage in, whereby thousands and thousands of tickets to an event are reserved. They're put aside for VIPs, for Platinum Visa credit card members, for other friends and family of the artists and the promoters that are-- These tickets are obviously inaccessible to the average fan.

Then as Zohran highlighted, and this has been the most controversial provision of my legislation that has elicited a huge pushback from the resale marketplace and scalpers, and that is trying to rein in, trying to control the markups associated with these events that within minutes of on sale at times, you mentioned the US Open, literally within 5, 10 minutes of tickets going on sale, there were almost none left, and the only place that folks could find them was on the resale marketplace marked up double, triple, quadruple. It's a massive problem. It's a massive headache.

No, of course, it's not game-changing, world-changing. There are more pressing issues like being able to afford to put a roof over your head and pay college tuition and be able to ride transit that's accessible. It's not good enough for us lawmakers, in my opinion, to just allow folks to survive in this state. We need to be addressing the quality of life issues, and folks in the city, folks in New York, folks around the country deserve to be able to go see a show and go see their favorite sports team, and right now it's inaccessible or too expensive for folks.

Brian: Let's take a phone call with a listener who does have an international comparison, that kind of thing that we mentioned in the intro. Jesse in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Jesse: Hi. I know that for popular concerts in Japan, you have to buy CDs, like musical CDs, to enter a lottery to purchase tickets for popular concerts, and you don't get your seat until you buy tiers of tickets, and then you don't get to find out your seats until two weeks before the concert.

Brian: You like that?

Jesse: They kill the resale market because you have to upload a picture of your face when you get your seat assigned, and they will check your facial features to make sure you're actually you when you try and enter the venue.

Brian: Really interesting model. Bernard in Rockland County has a US Open tennis horror story, I think. Hi, Bernard.

Bernard: Hello. Brian, it's a pleasure to talk to you. I listen to your show every day.

Brian: Thank you so much.

Bernard: I was telling the person, I've gone to the US Open every year with a friend of mine, and last year, I paid $175 for good tickets. I went to buy this year within the same area, and I bought them early, but I paid $325. I was monitoring closer to the Open, and the seats in the area that I was in were now going to $500 to $600 to $700 closer to the Open.

Brian: That's like other stories that I've heard. Something changed just this year with respect to that event, Senator Skoufis. I don't know if that was on your radar.

Senator Skoufis: I've heard similar horror stories. I went to the US Open last year. I didn't go this time around, but I know many friends went. My wife went this year, and it was an arm and a leg to be able to get in. What we just heard was a classic textbook dynamic pricing where, as the caller just mentioned, same section, as he was tracking the tickets closer to the event, he paid over $300, which is beyond ridiculous in my opinion, but as he got closer to the event, as he was watching his section of seats, they went for $400 or $500. That is what dynamic pricing is for your listeners who might not be familiar with the concept.

Brian: By the way, on the Wendy's story, listener says they were charting prices at peak hours to get people cheaper hamburgers, I guess, during off-peak hours, if I understand that correctly. About FIFA, it's a private organization. It's a global private organization, so even with a petition like Mamdani's, do you have any leverage? Does Albany have any leverage for the events in New York State or even Congress at the national level, since these matches will take place in multiple states? Do they have any leverage?

Senator Skoufis: Certainly. First, what Zohran's trying to do here is bring attention to, and one might characterize as shame, FIFA into doing the right thing, which I'm a big subscriber and fan of doing in these types of situations. Yes, we here in New York, if we pass the legislation that we're talking about, it would govern every event that is hosted in New York at one of our venues. Certainly Congress, they've talked about ticketing reform for over a decade. They've done virtually nothing, which is sort of par for the course with most congresses.

If they were to eventually get their act in order on this issue, then that would govern any concerts and sporting events and Broadway here in New York and other live entertainment throughout the country. Yes, we have plenty of opportunity to do so at the state and federal level. This is one of those rare issues. Look, Zohran is a democratic socialist. I fashion myself as a center-left Democrat, and there are plenty of Republicans who acknowledge this is a ridiculous issue that their constituents deal with. This is not a partisan issue. It's not a political issue.

If we were to actually do some of the stuff that we're talking about and rein in some of these most egregious practices that allow for the FIFA executives to, like Scrooge McDuck, do backstrokes into mountains of gold coins at their headquarters on the backs of our New York fans, if we were to do something about that, most of our constituents would love to throw us parades when we got back home to our district, because most elected officials are not paying attention to these real bread-and-butter quality-of-life issues like the one that we're talking about now, that I'm thankful Zohran has really honed in as part of his campaign.

Brian: In our remaining minutes, I want to move on from the ticketing issue, where you and Mamdani are obviously on the same page, to some other things where I don't know if you're on the same page, representing a suburban and ex-urban district north and west of the city, mostly Orange County, and up into the Catskills. Are you endorsing in the mayor's race?

Senator Skoufis: No one's asked me if I'm endorsing until now, because I'm not in the city, obviously. I don't know that I'm moving any votes in the five boroughs. What I'll say is this, and that is that I find it strange, and I'm being kind using that word, strange, that so many state Democratic leaders, national Democratic leaders, have been running for the hills away from our Democratic nominee, running to represent the largest city in the United States. We have to come to grips with ourselves in the Democratic Party, and that is that Zohran has been able to animate a cohort of voters that the broader Democratic Party has struggled mightily to engage and animate.

Brian: I hear you on that. Let me go down a checklist of a few issues that you would have to vote on, presumably as a member of the state Senate. Would you support the tax hike on million-dollar incomes and on corporate taxes that Mamdani is proposing? Andrew Cuomo has argued that proposals like those would require suburban and upstate lawmakers like yourself to back tax hikes on some of your people that would disproportionately benefit New York City.

Senator Skoufis: I've got news for Andrew Cuomo and anybody else, and that is that Orange County doesn't have that many millionaires. In fact, I could probably count them on maybe a couple of hands. I am perfectly comfortable, as it relates to folks making seven figures, eight figures, nine figures, very modestly raising their state income tax rates-

Brian: You're [unintelligible 00:16:10] of that?

Senator Skoufis: -to be able to pay for services. They should not just be paying for services exclusive to New York City, but that's why we have this--

Brian: Free MTA buses. I'm just going to continue to go down this list because our time is short. Free MTA buses in New York City, a Mamdani proposal, should Albany sign off on that? If so, should it extend to regional transit systems outside the city?

Senator Skoufis: It should certainly extend to services outside the city. Look, I brought free buses to Orange County. Ridership doubled. It's good public policy. A lot of folks are looking at these as crazy ideas somehow. I don't think that's a particularly crazy idea. I think it's actually very smart public policy.

Brian: Critics on that one say, "No, it should be means-tested. Why give people with the ability to pay a free ride when they could be contributing?"

Senator Skoufis: I've heard that argument for buses, for SUNY and CUNY free tuition. Mike Bloomberg and kids of millionaires and billionaires are not riding the buses and subways in the MTA. They're not going to SUNY Binghamton when we talk about free tuition. The idea of means testing, which, by the way, would just bloat a bureaucracy. We'd have to hire government employees to means-test whether someone should be paying a couple of bucks for a bus fare. That is absurd. I obviously know what they're trying to get at with the politics of that kind of messaging, but on the merits, it's an absurd proposition.

Brian: It sounds like you're on board with a lot of Mamdani positions. I wonder if you're going to divert from that here. Our listeners may not know, I mentioned it in the intro, that you ran what I guess must be considered a long shot campaign for DNC chair, National Democratic Party chair. After last year's election, city and state reported that part of the premise was that you won as a Democrat in a district that also went for Trump.

City and state reported that you posted an eight-part thread on X, laying out your takeaways from your own re-election in a purple district. You wrote, "It's not rocket science, show up everywhere, spread a populist message, and stop engaging in woke politics." Why do you think you won in a Trump district in the presidential, and why do you say stop engaging in woke politics? It's usually a term we hear from Republicans in a culture war context.

Senator Skoufis: Sure. Trump won my district last time around by 12% points. I won by 14%. Consistently, for many years now, I've run in Republican districts and have been successful. Look, one of our problems as it relates to the specific question that you asked, one of our problems is that we sometimes, as Democrats, fall into this trap where we come off in terms of the manner in which we speak, the language we use, we come off as better suited running for chancellor of a university system than for public office.

To use one example, during the Biden years, obviously, inflation was a very sensitive issue, and it was very real and hitting people's pocketbooks extremely hard. The talking points that some folks used were from these DC-based think tanks that suggested we should be talking about how-- Look, our economy, our GDP year over year, is better than France's and Western Europe's. Nobody cares about that kind of talk in that kind of excusing away. What they care about is they go to the supermarket and they see that everything that they buy is more expensive today than it was a couple of years ago.

When I use terms like woke or elitism, we have an elitism problem within the Democratic Party, and that's why we see white working-class folks hemorrhaging from our party. We even see young Black, especially young Hispanic male voters, beginning to drift away from our party. It's because we are not speaking in the language that the vast majority of Americans speak in. Certainly, on some issues, we are increasingly being viewed as disconnected from the mainstream views on these issues. The DNC under Ken Martin, the new chairman, is working very hard to rebrand ourselves and build back that trust, but it is a long work in progress, no doubt. We have a long way to go.

Brian: Can you name one specific issue where Democrats should move? I don't know if you would characterize it as toward the center. You called yourself center left. Can you name one particular issue where you think they've gone too far?

Senator Skoufis: I'll give you one local, and I'll give you one national. I'll leave aside the merits, and it is working in the sense that there are fewer cars for now, although in other countries and cities that have employed congestion pricing, we usually see those cars return a few years after enacting congestion pricing. At the time we were about to turn on those cameras, that would set up this $9 new toll, $15, in some cases, toll for folks, depending on what time of day you're driving into midtown or lower Manhattan, on top of the $15 toll that my constituents pay to get over the George Washington Bridge.

By the way, we have very little MTA transit west of Hudson and Orange and Rockland counties, no alternatives. There was a big press conference in the middle of the street in one of the streets in Manhattan. It was the governor, a lot of transit advocates, and they were celebrating, celebrating a new toll coming to New York City, to New York State. I understand why there was that enthusiasm. Some people have worked on this for many, many years, but for the average person looking at all of the Democrats that were at that-

Brian: Got it.

Senator Skoufis: -congestion pricing celebrating at a press conference.

Brian: That's your local example. Real quick, 20 seconds. What's your national one?

Senator Skoufis: Nationally on immigration, if someone brings up securing the border to a voter that we're trying to earn their vote, the reaction from us as Democrats can't be "you're a racist." If someone in our neighborhood who has a girl in school looking to get a scholarship for some lacrosse team or some team in college brings up just questions, transgender issues and transgender girls in sports, our initial reaction cannot immediately be "you are a bigot." We have to engage in these conversations in a rational and reasonable and respectful manner.

Brian: New York State Senator James Skoufis, a Democrat from District 42, mostly in Orange County, north and west of the city, from about Harriman west into the Catskills. Thank you very much for having these conversations with us about national politics, local politics generally, and ticket resales to the World Cup soccer matches next year. Thank you very much.

Senator Skoufis: Thanks for having me.

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