[music]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. In our spring membership drive trying to reach our goal of 10,000 donors, thank you for being one if you can. We begin this week with our usual Monday morning politics segment, today with President Biden's first Press Secretary Jen Psaki. She was previously White House Communications Director for President Obama and worked on presidential campaigns for Obama, and before that, the 2004 John Kerry for President campaign. She's now an MSNBC host on Sundays at noon and Monday nights at eight o'clock Eastern Time. Jen Psaki has a new book called Say More: Lessons from Work, the White House and the World. Jen, thanks for coming on with us. Welcome to WNYC.

Jen Psaki: Good morning, Brian. It's great to be here with you.

Brian Lehrer: To let people know you a little more first, if I'm seeing your bio right, you were born here in New York City and grew up in Stamford, Connecticut, is that right? Are you local to our area in that way?

Jen Psaki: I did. My mother grew up in Woodside in Queens. My uncle, who since passed away, was a retired New York City cop, so I do have some connections locally, sure.

Brian Lehrer: Was there something about your childhood or upbringing around here, or those roots that you just cited that led you to a career in politics?

Jen Psaki: I think my mother who's such an influential person in my life, and she's very present in my book, she's still a family therapist. Her roots in Queens and just her groundedness and grit, but heart is definitely part of what led me to want to be in public service. She always tells me that I'm rooted to Queens too because of her.

Brian Lehrer: Before we get to the news of today, including the upcoming debate between Biden and Trump, if Trump actually goes through with it, and the fight for the youth vote, you write in the book about the challenge of following Donald Trump. The inauguration was two weeks after January 6th, in case people forget, COVID was still raging, too. What a time to be sworn in as President for Joe Biden and what a time to become press secretary. How did you and the president see the job at the beginning of his administration?

Jen Psaki: Brian, one of the most important conversations I had prior to starting that job was of course with President Biden when he was interviewing me for the job. When he told me that the most important thing I could do or the person in this job could do was to try to take the temperature down in the briefing room. It doesn't mean you can't have debates. That's part of what happens in our democracy and part of embracing a free press.

Certainly, we had those in the briefing room, but to take a little bit of the venom out of the room and tried to make it a forum for information and information for the American people, especially during what was the height of COVID. That was the conversation we had, and that was certainly one that was sitting on my shoulders during my first briefing when I started the job as press secretary.

Brian Lehrer: To that point, one of your chapters is called 'When to Serve a Sake Bomb' on communicating across divides, at home and with Fox News. What's a sake bomb and what's the Fox News application of that?

Jen Psaki: There is a reporter named Peter Doocy who is a Fox News White House reporter who was in the briefing room, still is. We had quite a few exchanges in the briefing room. We also had a great relationship. What I talk about in that-- outside of the briefing room, what I talk about in that chapter is how to combat information that is inaccurate or when you're trying to make an argument about your approach to an issue.

My back-and-forths with him in the briefing room exhibited that quite a bit. I was not the originator of the term 'sake bomb', it was actually done by a group called Midas Touch, and then it took off a little bit. My sisters even had sweatshirts that said 'sake bomb' on it just to make fun of me, as good siblings do. The chapter is really about confronting people who you might have disagreement with, and so, I do talk about Peter in a lighthearted way.

I do say-- people often ask me, "How much do you hate Peter Doocy?" I say, "Not at all." I also talk in that chapter about my time confronting a much more serious opponent, and that is the Kremlin and my time as being a victim and a target of Russian propaganda, which was much more challenging, certainly.

Brian Lehrer: Russian propaganda like what aimed at you?

Jen Psaki: I was the State Department spokesperson in 2014 and '15 during that invasion of Ukraine by Russia. What I experienced at the time, this was before most people in our country knew about the Kremlin's propaganda machine, is that because I became the face by default, because I was giving the most briefings from the administration about this issue of our opposition as a country to Russia's invasion, the Kremlin decided to target my credibility.

They had a show on RT at night where they talked about me. They made up things I never said, a lot of it was gendered as well. I learned from that about how to fight back bullies. Certainly, they are a much more serious one than any reporter here in the United States.

Brian Lehrer: On being in the press room after the Trump administration, I imagine it wasn't just about bringing down the temperature. Press secretaries under Trump, I think it's fair to say, had to tell more lies than most presidential press secretaries. Starting right from Trump's inauguration day, some people will remember when Sean Spicer had angrily claimed to the press that the inauguration crowd was the biggest ever, which wasn't true. Your job is to put your guy in the best possible light.

Jen Psaki: Of course.

Brian Lehrer: How do you walk that line effectively but ethically?

Jen Psaki: I don't know if they had to tell lies. They did tell lies, and so, following that was certainly part of it, as well as part of their approach was targeting the media and attacking the media, which was what we were following. I think the key thing that I've learned as a communicator through many government jobs and jobs in political campaigns, is that the best thing you can do is you inform yourself on the issue and come ready to share and fight back hard when there's a disagreement with facts and with an understanding of what you're arguing.

There were certainly combative moments in the briefing room and part of the job of the press secretary, as you said, the big part of the job is to present the position of the President and the United States government. Part of the job of reporters in the briefing room is to push as hard as possible. That's why sometimes you see those combative back-and-forths. Your objective as press secretary is to be as informed as possible about the president's thinking, about the issues you're discussing, and that will make you more agile in that job and when you're having those tough back-and-forths with the reporters in the room.

Brian Lehrer: You mentioned being attacked by Russia. I noticed that another chapter of your book is called 'A Punchline China Would Find Funny'. I'll bite, is it a punchline that's easy to set up for the radio audience?

Jen Psaki: We'll see, Brian. I think that was one of the attacks that was launched against me at the time. I talk a lot in the book about mistakes because I think it's so important for people to understand that you can learn from mistakes, we all can. For me, there were moments where I experienced grace from others at times, and when I just had to eat it [chuckles] because I made a mistake. That story is really about one of the early briefings I did where I was asked about whether the president confidence in the Space Force, which is of course a serious division of the US military, relatively new.

In my mind, when I was asked the question, I couldn't get Steve Carell out of my mind and the movie Space Force, and I responded in a bit of a flippant way, that was a mistake. Flippancy doesn't always translate in the White House briefing room, or humor doesn't always translate, though I think humor is an important part of effectively communicating.

I apologize for my mistake, but I still was the target of a lot of critics who were suggesting that I just didn't take the role of the Space Force and their role in our national security seriously. That chapter is about mistakes and learning lessons from them.

Brian Lehrer: Or how do you say the 'office' in Mandarin?

Jen Psaki: Yes, exactly.

Brian Lehrer: President Biden's first Press Secretary, Jen Psaki, is our guest. She has a new book called Say More: Lessons from Work, the White House and the World. The news coverage of the president's Morehouse College graduation speech yesterday, to my eye, seems pretty positive, more so than I expected. If people expected a chilly reception with largely an angry student body in the current campus climate, it apparently was mostly warm, though some students definitely protested, and some turned their backs, but mostly well received is what I'm seeing in most outlets. What do you think, from a campaign communication standpoint, the job was for the president yesterday, while at the same time offering the graduates something of value for them?

Jen Psaki: Sure. I agree with you. I thought it was going to be much more negative than it turned out to be. As you said, some people turned their backs and there was some protesting, but it was peaceful. I would say his number one job was to show up. This is a campus where there certainly was some skepticism as there is on other campuses about the president's support for Israel over the past several months. He's also lost support among African American voters and specifically young Black men. This is certainly a campus that is full of promising, talented young Black men. Showing up and delivering his argument for why he is a person that should be chosen by a community that he's lost support among was, I think, his job. I think he did that effectively. One of the lines, I was looking at this speech this morning again, that I thought was very powerful was, "They don't see you in the future of America, but they're wrong." Now, there was criticism of his speech, but I think part of his argument is, "I am a person who will stand up for you, no matter the community." People will make their own decisions, but I think that was the most powerful part of his speech.

Brian Lehrer: What's the young Black man issue as you see it? I think it's accurate to say that Black women are the base of the base of the Democratic party, certainly in presidential elections. Why the gender gap?

Jen Psaki: It's such a good question. From what I've seen in the data is, part of the challenge here, and there's been interesting polls out there about the impact, about why there's a gap among young people. Some are among Black voters, some are among Hispanic voters, and certainly white voters. The number one issue that keeps popping up is not actually Gaza or other issues that have been front and center in the news. As much as that is an important issue to many, it's the economy and inflation. What's interesting about that is that it's not what people always suspect, right?

There's a Harvard IOP poll that suggested this. What I think might be going on, or a factor here, is that when we think about inflation, even as the numbers are moving in a better direction, if it really impacts you deeply, the cost of an interest rate, the cost of housing, and as a young person, it really does more than a more established older person often, that's a factor. It's like, "Who is going to help me make ends meet?" Polling, but also voting and elections are all about how the people running make you feel. If you feel like, "I can't get a leg up, I can't afford to go to the grocery store, I can't afford housing, I can't get ahead," that is a bigger factor than I think often media coverage gives credit to.

Brian Lehrer: That gender gap runs across racial lines. Does Biden have a strategy to claim he'd be better at fighting inflation than Trump if the number one issue, even for the 18 to 34s, is prices?

Jen Psaki: Well, this is where it becomes a gap between what the data is showing, which is that it is getting better, and how people are feeling, which it's improved a bit if you look at consumer confidence numbers and others. Really, I think the most powerful thing he can do is to show up across the country in communities who are doubtful or skeptical and make the case for why he's a better choice. Not that he can solve everything with a magic wand, but why he has better plans than his opponent, which is former President Trump.

The Morehouse speech, it was an example of that. He went to Wisconsin a couple of weeks ago where I think that was effective because he went to a place where Trump had promised that he would bring back jobs, Foxconn, and he didn't. In a state that's won by less than 1% of the vote typically, that's effective. You need a little edge to these events in order to break through. I think more of that is probably what he needs to be doing in the coming months.

Brian Lehrer: To say what, so for a voter out there who supports Biden and is speaking to some people they know who are undecided, who are going, "You know, I think Trump is really better on inflation." What's the one-line response?

Jen Psaki: Oh, this is what he has going for him, is the substance, even if it's hard. He is a person who wants to end the high-end tax cuts. He wants to lower the cost of living. He wants to lower the cost of housing. He very much believes in training and helping you pay back your student loans. These are all arguments that are contrast in the substance to what Trump is presenting.

What's also true, though, is that this campaign is less about these substantive disagreements, or appears to be right now, than past campaigns. It's not like the days of Obama and Romney where they were arguing about what they would each do on social security. Maybe it will become that over the next couple of months, but it's also about how you make people feel. Some of that is your proposals, and some of that is acknowledgement and recognition of what they're going through.

Brian Lehrer: How about the upcoming debate? Trump world is already spinning the debate as rigged, even though Trump proposed and accepted it. Is that just noise to ignore for you as a political communications expert or something to be addressed?

Jen Psaki: I think if you're sitting in the campaign, you ignore it. What does it even mean that the debate is rigged? You all agreed to the same terms of the debate. What's interesting is Trump is also, he was at least last week, and somebody probably told him to stop doing this [chuckles], out there suggesting Biden is a terrible debater. He's actually not a terrible debater. That's interesting. I think if you're the Biden team, what you're thinking about, and Ron Klain, who is the guru of all debate preps, he's done it for every presidential candidate for a long time.

You're thinking about a balance of two things. One, how do you find the moments to get under Trump's skin a little bit? Two, how do you present, which can be conflicting at some points, how do you make sure you are presenting yourself as the better choice for people who may be watching, who may feel frustrated about their economic circumstances or skeptical about the future of our country. It doesn't have to be conflicting, but it's tricky. If you're the campaign, you're thinking about those two objectives, less than whatever Trump is saying out there on it being rigged.

Brian Lehrer: Last question. I noticed that your book opens with your dedication to your kids, Vivi and Matthew. You write, "As you go out into the world, I hope you are always kind and curious." That's a great way to start. Then you go, "And also know how to say more." Why that title and why that advice to your kids? What do you want your own children, and by extension all your readers, to take from that advice in the title of your book?

Jen Psaki: Say More is not about the title, is not about saying things louder or with more words. It's about communicating with impact. When I say that to my kids, what I mean is, yes, I want you to speak your mind, but really, I want you to know how to effectively communicate in person, whether it's a difficult conversation or speaking up for yourself or just being a person who is an effective listener, which is part of effectively communicating, too. It's a shorthand for that, but that's what I was conveying to them. The book is to them because I thought a lot about advice that I hope I will give them when they're old enough, which is a couple of years from now since they're only eight and six.

Brian Lehrer: Jen Psaki's book is called Say More: Lessons From Work, the White House and the World. Thank you for sharing some of it with us.

Jen Psaki: Thank you for having me. It's great to talk to you.

Copyright © 2024 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.