[music]

Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. With us now, Gerry Shih, the Jerusalem bureau chief for The Washington Post, covering Israel, the Palestinian territories and the greater Middle East. With so much happening in the region right now, how can we go through even the list of all the headlines just in the last few weeks? Here are some even deeper humanitarian crisis in Gaza. President Trump's recent trip to the region that made headlines for the alleged corruption in the business deals he was making in Arab countries and taking that airplane to use as Air Force One with promises of what in return? People were asking. Also his overtures to Iran on a nuclear deal and bypassing Israel on both his deepening relationships with Arab countries and bypassing Israel's opposition to an Iran deal and saying the US will stop attacking the Houthis even though the Houthis vow to continue attacking Israel.

At the same time, Trump is doing nothing to stop Israel from escalating the war in Gaza- nothing that we know of, escalating it even more, including reportedly, citing Trump's plan to remove Palestinians from the territory. There was the murder of the two Israel embassy staffers in Washington, of course, it happened in the US but it's related, and the reports of individual horrors in Gaza, like the bombing that killed nine children in the same family, according to multiple reports that Israel says it's investigating.

We have Syria of all places, suddenly being open to warmer relations with Israel, but Canada, France and the UK relatively allied with Israel for many years, threatening sanctions over the war in Gaza. Just today, former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert was on Morning Edition accusing his own country's government of war crimes. He wrote an op-ed to that effect in an Israeli newspaper. He cited two main reasons for the war crimes accusation, one, the failure to address the food crisis, and here is his second one.

Ehud Olmert: The other is, the expansion of the war has no purpose, no military achievable purpose, and this is the opinion of not just me, but of hundreds of former commanders of the Israeli army on all ranks, including the chief-of-staffs and the commanders of the Mossad and the Secret Service and so on. All of us are absolutely certain that there is not any achievable purpose that is worth continuing and expanding this operation.

Now, while these operations are not going to save the hostages, are not going to achieve any important national interest goal, and hundreds of people are killed on a daily basis who are not involved, this is a crime.

Brian Lehrer: That was former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert with Steve Inskeep on Morning Edition today. With us now is Gerry Shih, the Jerusalem bureau chief for the Washington Post, covering Israel, the Palestinian territories and the greater Middle East. Gerry, thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Gerry Shih: Thank you so much, Brian. It's great to be here.

Brian Lehrer: Can I start with the Olmert op-ed? Is this making big news in Israel, or is it just another day in the nation's fractured political debate?

Gerry Shih: I would say absolutely. This is a country that was taken completely by surprise on October 7th and really saw world opinion galvanize around Israel's right to defend itself and to go into Gaza on a counteroffensive. Of course, over the weeks and months, as we saw that the tide of global opinion turn against Israel, there were still many within Israeli society who would say, "Look, whatever criticism you whatever criticisms that we face about the justices of this war, we still solidly believe that this is a moral war, it's a righteous war, it's a war of self defense."

That almost monolithic, I guess, wall-of-Israeli solidarity has slowly been chipping away. In just the last couple of weeks, we've really seen an outpouring and it's, particularly coincided, I would say, with a lot of this criticism that's come out from Israel's, traditionally, very strong allies in Europe. You've had the UK Foreign Minister make remarks. You've had French, Swedish, the German Foreign Minister, and now it's even been bubbling and erupting within Israeli society itself. It's coming from a lot of these former political leaders. These are military men who have very distinguished service records who've come out and said, "Enough is enough, what we're doing is going to go down as stain in history."

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take a few phone calls in this segment. Our calls are often, almost always, polarized on the Mideast with angry accusations coming from different sides, so maybe I'll ask the question this way. Is anybody changing on your views of the war in recent times? Ehud Olmert said he never wanted to come out and call his own country guilty of war crimes, only now has he felt compelled to do that.

If you've been a supporter of Israel's response after October 7th, are you less so now? If you have thought Hamas was acting in the interests of the people of Gaza, do you think that less so now? What's your take on the US relationship to the region now or anything else, including questions for our guest, Gerry Shih, Jerusalem bureau chief for the Washington Post covering the greater Middle East. 212-433-WNYC. We'll have time for a few phone calls in this segment. 212-433-9692, or you can text.

On Olmert's argument that the war isn't accomplishing anything anymore, that is basically what we heard in that clip. Netanyahu's goal has always been to destroy Hamas, to prevent more October 7th style attacks and recover the remaining hostages that way. How divided are Israeli leaders or the public on the possibility of even meeting that goal in that way in addition to the moral questions?

Gerry Shih: Brian, look, time and time again in recent months, public polls have shown that 80% or at least more than 70% of Israelis say that we should do a ceasefire deal, that if there's some kind of a deal that would let us get all of the hostages out, there's about 20 remaining alive inside Gaza now, that requires us to withdraw our troops from Gaza, that's a deal that we can accept.

That's something that many, many people within the Israeli military security establishment would also say that's the prudent thing to do. If your number one priority is genuinely the the safety and well being and recovering these Israeli hostages, then why not do a deal? If we see Hamas regrouping, regaining strength in any meaningful way, the Israeli military, given its massive advantage, could easily go in, conduct special forces raids, conduct airstrikes, all of these things that we've seen it do, in ample abundance the last 19 months.

The question then remains, why is Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu continuing to wage this war? To many, many observers, the only conclusion is that he wants to continue it out of political reasons because he does want his government coalition to fall. His government coalition is this cobbled-together grouping of very, very far right, very extreme political parties, religious Zionist parties, members and leaders of the settler movement who would really like to see this war prosecuted to the bitter end that would see, essentially, Israel conquering Gaza and re-establishing Jewish settlements.

From their perspective, this is about land. This is much more than getting the hostages back or defeating Hamas, this is about a far larger vision of what Israel should be.

Brian Lehrer: Now, there are two sides in this war. I also want to ask you about reported divisions among Palestinians in Gaza. The BBC was reporting, at least that's where I heard it, about anti-Hamas protests in southern Gaza. They went on for at least three days about a week ago. I don't know if they continued even after that. For Hamas's part, I've also read quotes of their leaders in several interviews where they say they vow to keep attacking Israel.

I don't think there's a lot of disagreement that Hamas fighters do embed with civilians to whatever degree, adding to civilian deaths by most accounts. What can you tell us about the anti-Hamas protests and the peace movement, if that's the right characterization of it, on that side, asking Hamas to stop the war?

Gerry Shih: Absolutely, Brian. Everything you said is true. This is a terrorist organization that we're talking about. They have ruled Gaza with really an iron fist. We see reports come out often of summary executions, basically of Gazan dissidents. This is an organization that is governing the Strip, that even if there were growing signs of discontent, which is very obvious to those who speak to Gazans who have been speaking to people on the ground, it's very difficult and rare to see these expressions of frustration.

Just simply the fact that we've seen these demonstrations out in the open, I think shows that there are many, many Gazans who are absolutely sick of this war and essentially being held hostage for the last 19 months by Hamas.

Brian Lehrer: Do you have good reporting on who's standing in the way of a ceasefire now? Because as I characterize so much of the language whenever we talk about this as so polarized, I'm seeing very strident accusations that Hamas is standing in the way of a ceasefire that was close or that Israel is standing in the way of a ceasefire that the Trump administration was close to getting agreement to.

Gerry Shih: I think the details of the ceasefire agreement and the negotiations are pretty murky. What I can tell you is that basically, with the talks deadlocked, if you remember, after, there was the first ceasefire in January. After we had that, talks very quickly became deadlocked. President Trump's special envoy, Steve Witkoff, came forward and said, "Look, if we can't reach a deal for a permanent ceasefire and end to the war, why don't we do a temporary deal where Hamas would release anywhere between 5 to 10 of its hostages, so 10 would represent about half of those still alive, in exchange for, let's say, a two or three-month ceasefire and the release of hundreds and thousands of Palestinian prisoners?"

Hamas, on the other hand, has said, "Look, as part of the original deal that we signed back in January--" If you recall, Brian, that was the one that the Biden administration and the Trump administration both pushed and got over the line. As a part of that framework, there was going to be a second phase that the two sides would enter, which would be negotiated upon and would call for a permanent ceasefire.

Now, of course, Israel says it cannot accept a permanent ceasefire unless Hamas agrees to disarm itself, to exile its leaders, release all the hostages, of course, and if they would be willing to do that, then that's the end of the war. For Hamas, of course, they have been very reluctant and adamant about not putting down their arms. There's been some negotiations on the sidelines with various Arab countries about what potential scenarios may be workable that would let Hamas, I guess, both save face, if you will, but also call an end to the war.

At this point, we can definitely tell that pressure has been rising significantly on Benjamin Netanyahu. We see a lot of leaks coming out of the US, coming out of Washington, people saying that President Trump himself has lost patience with Netanyahu, that he's tired of seeing these pictures of the dead and the sick and the starving in Gaza, and he would like to see an end to it.

There have also been reports coming out just in the last 24, 48 hours that Hamas is also willing to do some kind of an agreement. I guess we're all just waiting to see exactly what that would look like.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call from somebody who says his position on this has evolved over time. Jeff in Rochester, you're on WNYC with Gerry Shih, Washington Post Jerusalem bureau chief covering the greater Middle East. Hi, Jeff.

Jeff: Hey, Brian, thanks for taking the call. I have ties to Israel, and after the Hamas attack, I, 100%, supported Israel's right to defend itself and even the early actions it was taking, but I have to tell you, as a former supporter of Israel, I'm in just disgust of what they're doing, the previous Democratic administration's actions that led to where we are, Trump's rhetoric, Netanyahu. I've educated myself over the past year and now I have clarity where I didn't before, what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians. It was like a veil was lifted. I was emotionally attached to the place and the people, but not anymore.

Of course I have nothing against Israeli people, and I think I'm not alone in this, but this last offensive that Israel's been taking on Gaza is just-- America is exhausted. The media is exhausted, the people are exhausted. Nothing's being really reported. The protests aren't there anymore, not really. I'm ashamed of myself. I'm ashamed of the whole situation. It's sad to see, almost there's nothing that can be done about it.

Brian Lehrer: Jeff, thank you for your call. Gerry, two of your articles, as President Trump was in the region this month, were headlined, Israel ramps up attacks on Gaza as Trump leaves region without a deal and Trump repeatedly bypasses Netanyahu, stoking dismay among Israelis. That one said, "Netanyahu has long trumpeted his ties to Trump, but the president is sidelining him on urgent issues like the Iran nuclear talks and the conflict with the Houthi rebels." Gerry, the usual thinking is that Trump is one of Netanyahu's biggest supporters in the West. What's happening with that, as you see it?

Gerry Shih: Absolutely. I think that's the line that many in Israel, particularly on the right wing in Israel, thought, that we just basically elected a settler-in-chief right in the US or a president from the Likud Party. That, I think, was a profound misreading of President Trump. Of course, he is quite a big Israel supporter. There are many people in Trump world who feel the same way, but I think that, as he came into office, it was very clear that his top priority, perhaps in all of his foreign policy was cultivating and strengthening ties with Saudi Arabia.

Now that, in many ways, stood in polar opposition with what was happening in Israel and Gaza, precisely because the Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salmani, he has said that, "We would be willing to normalize ties with Israel as long as they make some gestures towards recognizing a two-state solution." That's something that the current Netanyahu government is very much-- it would be very difficult for them to swallow and to thread the needle in a way that would maintain their political position domestically.

President Trump, he likes winners, he likes to have deals that he can hold up as this is something that he solved and that he was able to broker. I think just given the intractable nature of this Israel-Gaza conflict, he just, in many ways, didn't want to touch it with a 10-foot pole. We saw that he flew to Riyadh, he flew to Doha, he flew to Abu Dhabi, but there was no stop in Israel, which is very, very uncommon for an American president traveling to the Middle East.

Brian Lehrer: If Trump is doing all these outside things, but at the same time, not trying to restrain Netanyahu from going full bore in Gaza, how much does any of this bypassing of Netanyahu really mean to what many people consider the burning humanitarian crisis that continues to unfold?

Gerry Shih: You're right. I think the perception has been that he was really using his leverage to rein in Netanyahu on Iran and basically waving him off of an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities, saying, "I'm not a president for war, I want a deal, I want to give this deal a go," and in exchange for that, giving Israel, more or less, a free hand in their war policies in Gaza. If your question is, "Well, doesn't that mean that Gazan civilians get the short end of that stick in terms of Trump's geopolitical calculations?" Then the answer simply is yes.

Brian Lehrer: Is it the Trump plan, can we call it that, that Netanyahu is pursuing, trying to move so many Gazans out of Gaza?

Gerry Shih: This was an idea that he threw out there back in February. He's since walked back, but then he's also offered contradictory statements about it. What I will say is that our reporting has shown that this moving Gazans out of Gaza en masse by the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands, if not more, is something that's very much been embraced by certain members of the Netanyahu government. It's something that's been actively worked on. We haven't seen any deals emerge so far of a third country or third countries that would potentially take these large numbers of people.

Obviously, it would be also politically explosive. Many people would argue that it amounts to forced displacement, ethnic cleansing coming on the heels of this massive military campaign, restriction of food. Then if you add on top of that this third phase of, "Okay, we're going to just ship a huge fraction of the Gazan population out," that raises very serious moral questions. I think that you have to ask if that's something that Trump himself would put his name on.

Brian Lehrer: One more call on the development that you mentioned about, and we both mentioned about Canada, France and the UK, long allies of Israel, relatively to a lot of the world at least, now coming out more strongly against what they've been doing, the escalation in Gaza recently. Shula in Bergen County is calling about that. Shula, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Shula: Hi. Good morning. I disagree with your idea. I think it's a mischaracterization to say that Europeans were allies from the very beginning with Israel. Within the first month of the war, you have had, consistently, the UN bombarding Israel with crazy thoughts. I don't ever think UK or France have really been allies of Jews or Israel for that matter. In fact, evidence will present that a lot of French Jews and British Jews are exiting because they're not being supported by their leaders.

The fact that you're saying this is a new thing, that UK and France is now beginning to change course in their walking-back, I don't think that's the case. Even US since the beginning, Biden administration didn't behave that way. Secretly, they were constantly pressuring Israel. I think if the world would have had a conversation from Hamas from the beginning, "Free the hostages," this war would not have taken to this point where obviously nobody wants to see children being bombed and displaced from their homes.

Brian Lehrer: Shula, thank you-- Go ahead. You want to finish the thought?

Shula: No, no, that's fine.

Brian Lehrer: Shula, thank you for your call. What is new from Canada, Britain and France? One thing I know is new is that they have threatened "concrete actions" against Israel. Give us what's new there and what impact, if any, it might have.

Gerry Shih: Brian, there's, I guess, gestures unspoken, if you will, of possibly moving towards sanctions. There's been some speculation that French President Emmanuel Macron might also recognize the state of Palestine. In the UK, I think it was last week, they said that they would halt trade talks. I would say that at this point, it is still nothing along the lines of an arms embargo which would, I think, be-- it would really impact Israel's war effort, but this is definitely a shift. This is not something that we were seeing 12 months, 18 months ago.

Brian Lehrer: We leave it there for today with Gerry Shih, who is the Jerusalem bureau chief covering Israel, the Palestinian territories and the greater Middle east for the Washington Post. Thank you for giving us some time. Thank you very much.

Gerry Shih: Thanks a lot, Brian.

Copyright © 2025 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.